Why would anyone become Catholic?

[Catholica]

"Convinced"

Convinced Movie Trailer

Check out the "Convinced" project:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/convinced

[Paulus]

Thanks Andre for the link . It is encouraging to know that such projects are coming more to the fore .

As to the question " Why would anyone become Catholic? " the Blessed John Henry Newman , whose feast is kept today , said that to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant .

The following is a reflection on Blessed John Henry Newman from ICN for today :-

" Blessed John Henry Newman was a priest, theologian, writer and preacher. His life spanned most of the 19th century. He was an Anglican for the first half of his life and became a Catholic in the second half.

Born in London in 1801,  Newman studied at Oxford's Trinity College, was a tutor at Oriel College and for 17 years was vicar of the university church, St Mary the Virgin. He  published eight volumes of Parochial and Plain Sermons as well as two novels. His poem, the Dream of Gerontius,  was set to music by Sir Edward Elgar.

After 1833, Newman was a prominent member of the Oxford Movement, which emphasized the Church's debt to the Church Fathers and challenged any tendency to consider truth as completely subjective.

Historical research made Newman suspect that the Roman Catholic Church was in closest continuity with the Church that Jesus established. In 1845, he was received into full communion as a Catholic. Two years later he was ordained a Catholic priest in Rome and joined the Congregation of the Oratory, founded three centuries earlier by St Philip Neri. Returning to England, Newman founded Oratory houses in Birmingham and London and for seven years served as rector of the Catholic University of Ireland.

Before Newman, Catholic theology tended to ignore history, preferring instead to draw deductions from first principles. After Newman, the lived experience of believers was recognized as a key part of theological reflection.

Newman eventually wrote 40 books and 21,000 letters that survive. Most famous are his book-length Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, On Consulting the Faithful in Matters of Doctrine, Apologia Pro Vita Sua (his spiritual autobiography up to 1864) and Essay on the Grammar of Assent. He accepted Vatican I's teaching on papal infallibility while noting its limits, which many people who favored that definition were reluctant to do.

When Newman was named a cardinal in 1879, he took as his motto 'Cor ad cor loquitur' (Heart speaks to heart). Newman died in 1890. He was buried in Rednal (near Birmingham) 11 years later. After his grave was exhumed in 2008, a new tomb was prepared at the Oratory church in Birmingham.

Pope Benedict XVI beatified Newman on 19 September 19, 2010, at Crofton Park, near Birmingham. The Pope noted Newman's emphasis on the vital place of revealed religion in civilized society but also praised his pastoral zeal for the sick, the poor, the bereaved and those in prison. "

Cardinal Newman Beatification on Sept. 19, 2010 , a blessed day for the Church in England .
Cardinal Newman Beatification on Sept. 19, 2010

Ask Fr. Barron: To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant? and secular?
Ask Fr. Barron: To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant? and secular?

[MIZ83]

The initial video was nothing but a feel good fluff Catholic peace. That's okay. It is your section of the site, after all.

More interesting, I think, was the quote from John Henry Newman, "to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." I will say that I agree and disagree. Much of Protestantism embraces "faith alone." Much of Protestantism believes in the impossibility of apostasy. Neither are tenable positions, in my opinion, from scripture, and certainly not from the writings of the early Christian writers.

Protestantism, however, is not monolithic, and I would suggest that "to be deep in history" does not support Catholicism either. I believe Catholic soteriology is more historically and scripturally accurate than mainstream Protestantism, but many of the Catholic accretions are not to be found in early Christian writings. I just don't see the institutional Catholic Church as being the one true church from getting deep into history. I don't condemn all Catholics as "unsaved," as some Protestants do. But I don't see papal succession, Mariology, purgatory, celibacy of priests, and other doctrines as being either scriptural or as being supported in the early history of the church.

As you are aware, no doubt, those hosting this site are part of the Restoration Movement. It was an Enlightenment movement, and relied upon inductive reasoning. As a result, it wasn't driven so much by a theological starting point against Catholicism as by adopting positions that accounted for all the evidence - a scientific / inductive approach. Therefore, we look at baptism, discipleship, and obedience differently than most Protestants. We don't rely upon institutional allegiance, but allegiance to Christ. We don't rely upon some one time faith experience, but we rely upon a life in relationship to our Lord and Savior. We view the church as all the saved, not an institution. Those in Acts 2 who believed that Jesus is Lord, repented, and were baptized were added to the number of the saved. If the Catholic Church believes otherwise, then I'll choose to believe God rather than men.

[kensington]

I don't know why any one would "become" a Catholic.  I certainly wouldn't.  I understand to a point those who were raised from infancy in that church being Catholic. But, I do not see it for someone who reads and understands the Bible as an adult.  I am not someone who believes that all Catholics are "unsaved".  But, I do see almost all of the practices as unbiblical.  Not pertinent for salvation, if you will. 

I know that most Catholics are sincere in what they believe concerning purgatory, being the one true church, Mary, communion, papal infallibility, or papal succession.  But, I believe they are sincerely wrong.

I know they believe we are wrong about things too. 

I also believe that anyone, Catholic or Protestant who is truly a believer, has history all the way back to Jesus.  If you practice what He taught and do what He says to do, you belong to Him.  But, I just would not choose to be a Catholic. 

[Star of David]

Well said, Kensington, but you would be surprised at how many devout Catholics question the points that you mentioned: purgatory, being the one true church, Mary, communion, papal infallibility, or papal succession.

As you implied, many people are of the religious faith followed by one or both of their parents, which is due to random chance.

[Catholica]

Well, kensington, if you watched the video, now you know!  Isn't that wonderful!

I chose to become Catholic and I find that all of those things you question are in perfect harmony with the Gospel and the Bible and they really show us more concerning the nature of God than perhaps you are used to.

[winsome]

Well said Catholica!

[DaveW]

After being raised in the Church of the Nazarene, Assembly of God and a brief stint in the Church of Christ; I seriously considered changing to Catholicism. 

I knew people who felt a call to change in that way.  CCM artist and guitarist/banjoinst extraordinare' John Michael Talbot was inspired to leave his family's traditional Baptist church for the RCC.  His brother Terry is still devout Baptist.

To me it would have to be a matter of God's individual call.  I ended up in Messianic Judaism because that was where my call led.

[chosenone]

I have only ever known people to come of the R Catholic church. I cant see any reason at all to go the other way.

[Catholica]

I have only ever known people to come of the R Catholic church. I cant see any reason at all to go the other way.

The best reason is that the Catholic faith is true.  It is not easy, it is not convenient, it may even seem crazy when seen from a secular point of view.  But one big reason to become Catholic is that the Catholic faith is true.  This video testifies to many people attesting to that very thing.

The other reason is, being true, it is a sure guide for living "The Way" that is Jesus, and through the Eucharist we have "The Life".  The Catholic Church, being founded by Jesus, radiates Jesus who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, WHEN people are faithful to the teachings of the Church and the life of the Church.

[Sailingflutist]

 ::smile::Hi, I am a "protestor" for Luther's and Calvin's and my own Bible study reasons, BUT :
I can certainly see how one can become disillusioned by the lack of church discipline in many/most? of the Protestant churches today and by the continual/perpetual division and sub-division and sub-sub-division of the body of Christ which is spitting Jesus our Creator, Savior, Lord, and Sustainer in His face and shoving the crown of thorns deep into His eyes and adding another piece of sharp, jagged bone or glass to that cat-o-nine tails and hammering those nails one more time. If you doubt that then read His prayer to the Father as He prepared to leave His disciples and all believers behind. One of His strongly felt burdens which he repeatedly beseeched the Father over was UNITY of all believers (John ch17).

I think that in realizing that every believer and receiver in/of the power of the blood of Jesus Christ, God the Son, IS endowed with the capacity through the Holy Spirit to receive direct, divine inspiration, we open up the potential for that power to be misused, misunderstood, and counterfeited by those who are weak, immature, or ambitious in their faith. And maybe that is OK IF there is the establishment of a strict and universal/ecumenical board/committee/whatever group to maintain accountability to at least the basic/fundamental principals of Christianity found in God's Holy Word. But now that there exists such a vast divide among Protestants today I don't see the potential needed for such cooperation and agreement; and satan smiles thinking to himself-divide and conquer.

I am not too familiar with the added doctrine of the Catholic church but I know enough; such as Jesus our Lord and Redeemer has been, in effect, dethroned from being what God's Holy Word calls our ONLY Mediator between God and man and that they have added an inordinate amount of focus upon the humble and lowly virgin, Mary, to the point of worshiping her and that they worship a multiplicity of icons instead of our one and only Lord. As I see it, they still believe in the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ though, don't they? All of this other stuff certainly constitutes significant hurdles and obstacles to their growth and maturation and empowering by the Holy Spirit, but aren't they still saved if they believe and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord? I ask this because I am FED UP with the lack of church discipline in the Protestant church and the resulting weak, worldly, Spiritually lethargic, and  chaotic mes it is becoming.

[chosenone]

::smile::Hi, I am a "protestor" for Luther's and Calvin's and my own Bible study reasons, BUT :
I can certainly see how one can become disillusioned by the lack of church discipline in many/most? of the Protestant churches today and by the continual/perpetual division and sub-division and sub-sub-division of the body of Christ which is spitting Jesus our Creator, Savior, Lord, and Sustainer in His face and shoving the crown of thorns deep into His eyes and adding another piece of sharp, jagged bone or glass to that cat-o-nine tails and hammering those nails one more time. If you doubt that then read His prayer to the Father as He prepared to leave His disciples and all believers behind. One of His strongly felt burdens which he repeatedly beseeched the Father over was UNITY of all believers (John ch17).

I think that in realizing that every believer and receiver in/of the power of the blood of Jesus Christ, God the Son, IS endowed with the capacity through the Holy Spirit to receive direct, divine inspiration, we open up the potential for that power to be misused, misunderstood, and counterfeited by those who are weak, immature, or ambitious in their faith. And maybe that is OK IF there is the establishment of a strict and universal/ecumenical board/committee/whatever group to maintain accountability to at least the basic/fundamental principals of Christianity found in God's Holy Word. But now that there exists such a vast divide among Protestants today I don't see the potential needed for such cooperation and agreement; and satan smiles thinking to himself-divide and conquer.

I am not too familiar with the added doctrine of the Catholic church but I know enough; such as Jesus our Lord and Redeemer has been, in effect, dethroned from being what God's Holy Word calls our ONLY Mediator between God and man and that they have added an inordinate amount of focus upon the humble and lowly virgin, Mary, to the point of worshiping her and that they worship a multiplicity of icons instead of our one and only Lord. As I see it, they still believe in the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ though, don't they? All of this other stuff certainly constitutes significant hurdles and obstacles to their growth and maturation and empowering by the Holy Spirit, but aren't they still saved if they believe and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord? I ask this because I am FED UP with the lack of church discipline in the Protestant church and the resulting weak, worldly, Spiritually lethargic, and  chaotic mes it is becoming.

I would respectfully suggest that you try other churches. Where I live there are loads of good and godly churches full of those who love God and who have also have great pastors whose desire is to see people saved.  Even though I am in the UK, a pretty secular nation, within about 5 miles I can think of 8 or 9 such churches.

[Catholica]

::smile::Hi, I am a "protestor" for Luther's and Calvin's and my own Bible study reasons, BUT :
I can certainly see how one can become disillusioned by the lack of church discipline in many/most? of the Protestant churches today and by the continual/perpetual division and sub-division and sub-sub-division of the body of Christ which is spitting Jesus our Creator, Savior, Lord, and Sustainer in His face and shoving the crown of thorns deep into His eyes and adding another piece of sharp, jagged bone or glass to that cat-o-nine tails and hammering those nails one more time. If you doubt that then read His prayer to the Father as He prepared to leave His disciples and all believers behind. One of His strongly felt burdens which he repeatedly beseeched the Father over was UNITY of all believers (John ch17).

I think that in realizing that every believer and receiver in/of the power of the blood of Jesus Christ, God the Son, IS endowed with the capacity through the Holy Spirit to receive direct, divine inspiration, we open up the potential for that power to be misused, misunderstood, and counterfeited by those who are weak, immature, or ambitious in their faith. And maybe that is OK IF there is the establishment of a strict and universal/ecumenical board/committee/whatever group to maintain accountability to at least the basic/fundamental principals of Christianity found in God's Holy Word. But now that there exists such a vast divide among Protestants today I don't see the potential needed for such cooperation and agreement; and satan smiles thinking to himself-divide and conquer.

I am not too familiar with the added doctrine of the Catholic church but I know enough; such as Jesus our Lord and Redeemer has been, in effect, dethroned from being what God's Holy Word calls our ONLY Mediator between God and man and that they have added an inordinate amount of focus upon the humble and lowly virgin, Mary, to the point of worshiping her and that they worship a multiplicity of icons instead of our one and only Lord. As I see it, they still believe in the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ though, don't they? All of this other stuff certainly constitutes significant hurdles and obstacles to their growth and maturation and empowering by the Holy Spirit, but aren't they still saved if they believe and confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord? I ask this because I am FED UP with the lack of church discipline in the Protestant church and the resulting weak, worldly, Spiritually lethargic, and  chaotic mes it is becoming.

Hi Sailingflutist,

It is nice to meet you.  I think what you say will resonate with a lot of people.  There are many people like you who are seeking for something stable and greater than themselves.  And I believe that this feeling deep inside is the work of the Holy Spirit.  We have the words of scripture to remind us of the house that is built on the rock that will not be swept away by the storms that will surely come.  I think we all desire inside to live in that house, but many are like you who look out and see rather shifting sands.  And also many are like you who seek a greater calling in their life, as you say, spiritual discipline.  You shouldn't ignore these movements that you have felt inside, they resonate with the Gospel.

As for the Catholic faith, though it is too much here to explain, I can tell you that there are real stable theological reasons for these beliefs we have that some people call "accretions".  Many of the people in the video that I posted also held that view.  Many of them were (and are) brilliant Bible scholars.  Scott Hahn, Jeff Cavins, Francis Beckwith, these were men of the word even before they became Catholics, and still are.  They know full well these doctrines some call "accretions".  But yet they are able to understand them, and not only accept them (with all their biblical study) but also proclaim them to others with full sincerity.

It's like what Regenerus said in that trailer, "Their explanations are better than I thought they would have".  And another said (paraphrasing) that 'every person with intellectual honesty owes it to himself to learn about the Catholic faith'. 

Just as it is not really that great of an idea to try to understand what science teaches from a non-scientist, it is not a good idea to really understand what the Catholic Church teaches from a non-Catholic.  Let knowledgeable Catholics teach you themselves.  Some people, such as chosenone, want to drive you away based upon their own biases and misunderstandings.  As long as they have this attitude they will never try to understand what that thing they are against is really about.  You have to know the heart of something before the peripherals make any sense, and those who disdain the Catholic faith almost always focus on peripherals without seeing the heart.

I'd encourage you to be true to those movements you feel in your heart and at least explore the Catholic faith.  I can tell you that the Catholic faith I have found not only to be quite true, but also very stable and spiritually challenging.  But I can only witness from my experience; I encourage you to at least see if what I say carries weight in your soul.

You want to do what God wants you to do, and so do I.  So at least pray about it to God and He will lead you where you are to go.

God Bless,

Andre

[skeeter]

Well, kensington, if you watched the video, now you know!  Isn't that wonderful!

I chose to become Catholic and I find that all of those things you question are in perfect harmony with the Gospel and the Bible and they really show us more concerning the nature of God than perhaps you are used to.

and you previously posted on here that you became a Catholic in order to marry your wife.  I've known a number of people who have done that.   You joined a religious denom for worldly gain.

things like purgatory, worshipping/praying to Mary, praying to the dead, not going to Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin, placing the RC/pope on the level of Christ are not in the Bible. 
No where does the Bible instruct one to read the RC catechism for further rules, regs, information.  Christians are not bound by the law.  It was not replaced by those from the RCC/CCC.

[DaveW]

and you previously posted on here that you became a Catholic in order to marry your wife.  ...  You joined a religious denom for worldly gain.

"Worldly gain?" Really?  Does that square with this verse?

Proverbs 18:22  He who finds a wife finds a good thing And obtains favor from the Lord.

[Catholica]

Well, kensington, if you watched the video, now you know!  Isn't that wonderful!

I chose to become Catholic and I find that all of those things you question are in perfect harmony with the Gospel and the Bible and they really show us more concerning the nature of God than perhaps you are used to.

and you previously posted on here that you became a Catholic in order to marry your wife.  I've known a number of people who have done that.   You joined a religious denom for worldly gain.

I did become Catholic to marry my wife.  But I joined out of love for a human person, not for worldly gain.  There is nothing worldly about sacramental marriage.

It wasn't until later when I really needed God in my life that I came to find what so many people have already found, and that is that the Catholic Church teaches the truth of the Gospel, unadultered.  I remain Catholic having come to realize the truth of the faith. 

And it wasn't until I was seeking God that there were even divisions in Christianity.  The more I sought to learn about the Catholic faith the more I found it to be true and others to be missing something, which only strengthened my convictions that the Catholic Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth spoken of in the Bible.

[Catholica]

Here is the testimony of another person who asked himself this same question:

http://calvin2catholic.com/?p=308

Why Would Anyone Want to be Catholic?

I heard from a woman last week who watched a PBS documentary on the Vatican. The show was little more than a sensationalistic "hit piece," meant to defame the Church as much as possible. Propaganda, pure and simple. But it was effective propaganda. After watching, the woman asked me, "Who, on earth, would ever want to be Catholic?"

Well, me, for one. I joined the Church at the height of the media frenzy over abusive clergy. I had my eyes wide open and I can say honestly that the scandal did not deter me from becoming Catholic.  And I am not alone. I know countless men and women who have made an honest investigation of the Church's claims and have embraced them even in the face of a non-stop media assault on the integrity of Catholicism.

The reasons are really not that hard to understand. The Church is not a cult of personality. When I became Catholic, I was not committing myself to the integrity of this or that Catholic leader. I was joining myself to a communion of saints and sinners that extends backwards in time to the Church's foundation and forward to the end of time. It encompasses all the faithful joined to Christ, living and dead. In heaven, purgatory, and on earth. When I became Catholic, I knew that in some ways I was shaking hands with St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430) or St. Francis of Assisi (1181-1226) more than with some abusive priest in Boston.  Ultimately, I was seeking to join myself to Christ. For as St. Gregory of Nyssa said, "He who beholds the Church really beholds Christ."

Since the late 1980s, more and more Protestant clergy, leaders, and intellectuals have embraced the Catholic Church. This is something the late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus predicted in his book The Catholic Moment: the Paradox of the Church in the Postmodern World. (1990) Neuhaus saw clearly that only the Catholic Church had the intellectual, cultural, and spiritual resources necessary to confront the challenges of the twenty-first century. Writer Joseph Bottum has explored how this has played out since Neuhaus, how Catholic ideas and influence have come to dominate religious discourse in the public sphere. (See his new book An Anxious Age: the Post-Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of America.) Historian Philip Jenkins explains that anti-Catholicism has become the last acceptable prejudice precisely because Catholicism represents the leading opponent to secularism, relativism, and atheism. (See his book The New Anti-Catholicism: The Last Acceptable Prejudice.)

This last point is worth emphasizing. One reason for the all-out media frenzy against the Church is that the Church represents the most articulate, well-reasoned, thoughtful response to the errors of atheism and relativism. This is not to deny that Catholics have done things deserving censure. But the sins of Catholics do not merit the disproportionate attention they receive in the media. Can you imagine the public outcry that would result if PBS published a hit piece on the sins of ..... ?  (Fill in the blank with the name of any politically-protected constituency.)  No, the Catholic Church remains a target because she reserves the right to speak with boldness to the whole of man's existence, and she does so with a loud voice.

Even within the world of Protestant thought and culture, more and more leaders have come to realize that they must rely on the leadership and spiritual patrimony of Catholicism in order to confront the contemporary crisis. Protestant historian and theologian Mark Noll believes that contemporary Protestantism is impoverished, and sees at least a selective return to Catholic tradition as the answer. In an article for First Things, Noll writes:

Whenever evangelicals in recent years have been moved to admonish themselves and other evangelicals for weaknesses in ecclesiology, tradition, the intellectual life, sacraments, theology of culture, aesthetics, philosophical theology, or historical consciousness, the result has almost always been selective appreciation for elements of the Catholic tradition.

Catholicism offers a profound tradition of moral reasoning, a visible and audible Magisterium that can speak this tradition to the world, a sacramental holiness that transcends the merits or failings of any individual, and the witness of two-thousand years of saints and martyrs. There is nothing like it anywhere.

I don't expect all Catholics to be perfect. (I'm sure not.) But the Church expects me to be perfectible. I didn't join the Church because Catholics are all sinless, but in order to get rid of my sins. Oscar Wilde once said that the Catholic Church is "for saints and sinners alone – for respectable people, the Anglican Church will do."  Today, the Church may not be respectable in the eyes of the world. It certainly is not respectable to PBS. But to millions of us converts, it offers things far more valuable: the truth about our origin and destiny in God, and a credible claim to deliver that destiny.  Through the Church we have received grace – faith, hope, and charity through Our Lord Jesus Christ.

[kensington]

Marriage in it's self is not spiritual.  Many a worldly marriage has there been.  What makes a marriage spiritual is that BOTH are believers when it happens. 

God being in the marriage to begin with is what makes it a Christian marriage.   That said, many a person has come to the Lord through their spouse already being a Christian. 

I too have seen people who joined churches or religions to please another human being.  And for many other reasons.  My bil joined the Catholic church because his wife said he could get a Harley Davidson.  Sadly. He sought an annulment from his first wife because my FIL would not pay for their wedding unless it was in the CC.  Sadly.
He did it all for the Love of someone. My sil walks around as though her marriage is more sanctified in the Lord than other marriages are. Which speaks of what the bondage of religion can do to peoples lives.

[Catholica]

Marriage in it's self is not spiritual.  Many a worldly marriage has there been.  What makes a marriage spiritual is that BOTH are believers when it happens. 

Sacramental marriage, which is what I said in my post, is definitely spiritual, when validly entered into.  Only baptized persons can have a sacramental marriage.  That is Catholic teaching.

God being in the marriage to begin with is what makes it a Christian marriage.   That said, many a person has come to the Lord through their spouse already being a Christian. 

A natural marriage can be made sacramental (supernatural) once both persons are baptized.  That is how I would phrase what you just said in Catholic speak.

I too have seen people who joined churches or religions to please another human being.  And for many other reasons.  My bil joined the Catholic church because his wife said he could get a Harley Davidson.  Sadly. He sought an annulment from his first wife because my FIL would not pay for their wedding unless it was in the CC.  Sadly.

If that was truly why your brother in law joined the Catholic church, then that was wrong on his wife's part.   They could have gotten married in a Catholic Church even if he didn't become Catholic; they just couldn't have had a Catholic mass at the wedding. 

Even if your Father in law hadn't said that he wouldn't pay for the wedding, he still would have had to seek an annulment from his first wife to be married to his current wife, because Jesus does not recognize divorce, and neither does the Catholic Church.  The annulment was to examine the first marriage to see if it was valid.  If it had been valid, then he could not have married his now wife.  Period.  They would not be married in the eyes of God, and every sexual act they would have done would have been an act of adultery.  So says the scriptures.  And there is nothing "sad" about it.  It is joyous that people can know with certainty whether or not their marriage was valid in the eyes of God.  No one wants to be united by God in a one flesh union with someone who he calls his "wife". 

He did it all for the Love of someone. My sil walks around as though her marriage is more sanctified in the Lord than other marriages are. Which speaks of what the bondage of religion can do to peoples lives.

You don't believe that sacramental (supernatural) marriage is more sanctified in the Lord than natural marriages?  Maybe you are speaking about how she speaks about your marriage, which, since your husband was Catholic, is invalid in the eyes of the Church (who has the power to bind and loose) if it was held outside a Catholic Church without the permission of the bishop.  Perhaps that is why you say she "walks around as though her marriage is more sanctified in the Lord"?

[kensington]

Well, the truth is, (and you may find this shocking)...  My husband and I were BOTH born again believers when we got married. Neither of them were, they were just Catholic (Or she was) he was not. He did not join until years later.  We were married by a man of God, a Chaplain in the US Navy. I find NO scripture that implies her marriage is more in God than mine is.  Because there isn't one.

But, yes she has said these things to me, "your marriage isn't sanctified"..  and "If you joined the CC you marriage would be sanctified"... By whom?  My husband and I both walk with the Lord, and they lived together, he divorced his wife, and then annulled her, they smoke pot, drank beer daily.  He married his high school sweetheart, and they had two children together.  They were separated when he went out to the bars with his friend and met my sil.  She was living alone with her child she had out of wedlock.  He moved in with her that night and never went home.  And she has the nerve to call my marriage "not sanctified"?...  She never even read her own Bible until I stood up to her, backing my stance with the Word of God... she set off to prove me wrong, got a bible and started reading.  It's been 28+ years she has not come back with any "Proof". 

  I do not and never did need the CC to recognize my marriage.  My husband does not need them to approve.  She is working on her 2nd Miserable marriage, her first husband died, she married the dad of the baby she conceived out of wedlock this time...  and she (they) are miserable.  She doesn't even have affection for him.  He also joined the CC church so they could marry in the church... and does not believe. 

So, you tell me which one of us is the "Believer"?  Which marriage is sanctified by God? 

[Catholica]

Well, the truth is, (and you may find this shocking)...  My husband and I were BOTH born again believers when we got married. Neither of them were, they were just Catholic (Or she was) he was not. He did not join until years later.  We were married by a man of God, a Chaplain in the US Navy. I find NO scripture that implies her marriage is more in God than mine is.  Because there isn't one.

You were both born again, but not because of some arbitrary judgment on your part, but because you were baptized.  She was also born again because she was baptized.  If he was baptized, then he was born again.

It doesn't actually matter who marries you.  The ministers of the sacrament are the husband and wife themselves.  However to protect the form of the sacrament, Catholics are either required to be married in a Catholic Church by a priest, or to receive dispensation from the bishop to be married elsewhere.  Your husband is a Catholic, and so he is bound to the law of the Church that he was a part of.  I assume from what your sister said that he didn't pursue permission from his bishop to be married by that Chaplain.

Laws such as these are part of scripture, indirectly.  They follow under the Church's power to bind and loose.  The Church has the power to bind that your husband needed to either get married in a Catholic Church in the witness of the Priest or receive a dispensation, and apparently he did not, making your marriage invalid. 

If your husband would ever want to divorce you he could have your marriage annulled, for reason of improper canonical form.  More than likely, your sister in law's marriage is valid and cannot be annulled.  She is operating under the sacrament of grace, and divorce is not possible, so she must take up her cross and bear her sufferings now, and through uniting those sufferings to Jesus' own, it will help save her husband.

But, yes she has said these things to me, "your marriage isn't sanctified"..  and "If you joined the CC you marriage would be sanctified"... By whom?

By God because you would be operating according to His established order.

My husband and I both walk with the Lord, and they lived together, he divorced his wife, and then annulled her, they smoke pot, drank beer daily.  He married his high school sweetheart, and they had two children together.  They were separated when he went out to the bars with his friend and met my sil.  She was living alone with her child she had out of wedlock.

I suppose that you think your sins are so much less bad?  All his sins that you mention were washed away when he was baptized.  Hers are washed away by Jesus through the Sacrament of Confession.  God doesn't remember them any more, but for some reason you do.

If he received an annulment then he was never married, in the eyes of God, to his first "wife" in the first place.  So the "divorce" was only the end of a civil contract which has no bearing before God.  The Church declared the marriage "null"; he didn't "annul his wife."

He moved in with her that night and never went home.  And she has the never to call my marriage "not sanctified"...  She never even read her own Bible until I stood up to her, backing my stance with the Word of God... she set off to prove me wrong, got a bible and started reading.  It's been 28+ years she has not come back with any "Proof". 

We are sanctified by God's work, not our own.  Marriage is not a civil contract between two people who consider themselves born again because they think they are so holy.  Marriage is a spiritual and real one-flesh union made so by God by two people who have been born again through baptism and married in accord with the order that God has established.

I do not and never did need the CC to recognize my marriage.  My husband does not need them to approve.

Yes, actually, he did need the permission of his bishop.  Because the bishop has the power to bind and loose granted by God.  If you had married someone who was not a Catholic, or to a Catholic who received dispensation or to a Catholic in a Catholic Church, then you wouldn't need any permission and your marriage would be valid.  It can still be made valid though, but you have to go to the Church.  Otherwise, in the eyes of God, your husband and you are committing fornication.  And you are the ones having children out of wedlock (or had, depending).  But your ignorance of this order, if it is ignorance and not simply defiance, reduces your culpability for your sins regarding marriage.

She is working on her 2nd Miserable marriage, her first husband died, she married the dad of the baby she conceived out of wedlock this time...  and she (they) are miserable.  She doesn't even have affection for him.  He also joined the CC church so they could marry in the church... and does not believe. 

So, you tell me which one of us is the "Believer"?  Which marriage is sanctified by God?

A person whose spouse dies is free to marry.  If they are miserable, it is because they are suffering because of their sin AND unwilling to accept that suffering.  You don't need affection to make a marriage, you can love someone without having affection for them.  If he does not believe, then that is a big problem for both of them and a source of much suffering.  She would be less miserable if she were to suffer willingly and offer those sufferings up to God for the continued conversion of her husband.  I'd love to talk to her sometime, I think that I could really help her.

As to which marriage was sanctified by God, if I had to judge by the evidence you gave me, I would say that hers is.  Being sanctified doesn't exempt a person from suffering.  In fact, God offers us suffering so that we can be made perfect.  Evidence of suffering is better evidence of God's work than non-suffering.

[kensington]

Oh malarkey...  We were saved before we got Baptized.  And the rest of that Catholic gobbldy goop is marlarky too.   

Her marriage where no one prays or worships or even tells the truth is more sanctified by God because a religion signed off on it?  That is not scriptural at all.  And your saying her marriage is more sanctified does not make it so.  That is ridiculous to say the least.  God's word and His blessings are for those who "BELIEVE".  Not those who do what their religion says.  The standard for relationships, marriage, and be a believer is the WORD OF GOD. 

My husband did not need a Bishops permission to marry me.  We do not seek approval of the CC.  He left that and renounced it.  He has never once desired to go back and be a part of it or seek anyone's approval for his life.  He served as Protestant Layleader for the NAVY four different commands.  He walks uprightly with God.  THAT is what a BELIEVER does.  We are THE CHURCH.  And we have the authority to bind and loose things, given by God.  My husband is NOT a Catholic.  He is not bound by anything He himself did not choose. Salvation and faith are personal choices that we must all make for ourselves.  He heard the truth and believed. Then was baptized later. 

Did YOU choose to join the Catholic Church?  Then, HE could choose to leave it and not be a catholic.   Don't even go there.  Unless, you can PROVE it by THE WORD OF GOD. 

I don't hold her sins against her... But I do remember that she persecuted me and still does.  I remember that a hypocrite hurt and persecuted me. A mind cannot just shut off pain purposely caused by someone else.  I don't believe God makes her suffer, I believe that her choices brought that on. She walks in her own wisdom rather than to seek God first.  We all know that will bring disappointment and pain.  You cannot claim to be a Christian and live willy nilly with out God being involved and then blame him when it hurts.  You cannot live without God daily in your life and then expect Him to just show up at your wedding. It does not work that way.  What good is confession if you do not intend to change when you come out?  (Hebrews 10:26-31).

Marriage is a covenant, and that is what we have.  I can clearly see the difference.  Not that I seek to, but because the evidence is there for all to see.  We are not blind. God granted us eyesight on such matters.  We line them up with the word of God and see for ourselves.  That is what we are told to do.  Like it or not, I do get to speak to the things that have been done and have affected my life. It is my witness.  Read Paul...  he does indeed put his life experiences in what he says.  If it affects no one but me, then I can still speak to it.  If it has caused me to cling more to the word of God and to hold on tighter to my God... So be it.  If God allowed it all for my perfecting, then I am all the better for it. 

However, there has been no repentance of the things done and said to me, and occasionally they still happen.  I will always forgive her, but I am not dumb enough to forget these things done to me in the name of Religion by her. That would be foolish. Instead, I keep them in remembrance to always be prayed up, knowing what the enemy is trying to use her for.  Peace.

[skeeter]

I do not and never did need the CC to recognize my marriage.  My husband does not need them to approve. 

Yes, actually, he did need the permission of his bishop.  Because the bishop has the power to bind and loose granted by God.  If you had married someone who was not a Catholic, or to a Catholic who received dispensation or to a Catholic in a Catholic Church, then you wouldn't need any permission and your marriage would be valid.  It can still be made valid though, but you have to go to the Church.  Otherwise, in the eyes of God, your husband and you are committing fornication.  And you are the ones having children out of wedlock (or had, depending).  But your ignorance of this order, if it is ignorance and not simply defiance, reduces your culpability for your sins regarding marriage. 

such arrogance! Where does God tell us we need the permission of the RC?  or your RC bishop? He  doesn't.  That's made up by the RC - and many blindly follow it instead of God's word.
The RCC would be the last place I'd look for approval to marry anyone.  Or approval for anything else.  Or guidance for anything.

[kensington]

"Yes, actually, he did need the permission of his bishop.  Because the bishop has the power to bind and loose granted by God.  If you had married someone who was not a Catholic, or to a Catholic who received dispensation or to a Catholic in a Catholic Church, then you wouldn't need any permission and your marriage would be valid.  It can still be made valid though, but you have to go to the Church.  Otherwise, in the eyes of God, your husband and you are committing fornication.  And you are the ones having children out of wedlock (or had, depending).  But your ignorance of this order, if it is ignorance and not simply defiance, reduces your culpability for your sins regarding marriage."

Please prove this by the Word of God...  not by any catechism that is the made up doctrine of man and has almost nothing to do with Loving God and being His child.  This is what is wrong with Catholicism over all and has been through the centuries.  Men who do not live Godly lives at all from the bottom to the top... all the way to and including the Pope sit in judgment of those who seek to honor God and live according to His word. 

It's laughable actually that anyone would even say what you did...  Catholics world wide are living in adulterous marriages, fornication abounds in "living together" situations, drunks, and even homosexuals cross themselves when they bless their food and they think that means they have "arrived" and these same hypocrites, deem a marriage of two believers walking with God daily for their whole marriage as "committing fornication".   

I believe God is sadden by such things.  Calling my children bastards and implying that I must be ignorant for believing in God but not being catholic.  That is just twisted.  My marriage is more valid than most catholics I have ever met. They walk as hypocrites to their own religion and also have the nerve to spew such blatant lies.  They do not even realize that in their blindness to their religion, they offend and send more believers away than they win. 

My husband has heard the things you have said before... and of course his sister has tried to imply such things also.. and been invited to leave our home. But, he also went to a priest that he knew while serving as layleader, concerning these things you and she say, and he was told... "These people hinder the Gospel of Jesus Christ".   She does, you do, every single arrogant catholic that tries to shovel that manure does. 

[lonegreywolf20]

Kensington said: "I do not and never did need the CC to recognize my marriage.  My husband does not need them to approve."

Amen! I went back to the Catholic church after being away from it for many years, only to leave once again after being told that my marriage isn't valid because my wife and I weren't married in the Catholic church as we were both cradle Catholics and this time I will not be looking back. Being told that we are fornicating because we refuse to live as brother and sister. No where in the Bible does it say one must be married in the Catholic church, or that sex is reserved only for those who are married in the Catholic church.

I have attended a Lutheran church a couple times now and really enjoy the services and best of all, our marriage is valid even if we weren't married in a Lutheran church.

[chosenone]

Kensington said: "I do not and never did need the CC to recognize my marriage.  My husband does not need them to approve."

Amen! I went back to the Catholic church after being away from it for many years, only to leave once again after being told that my marriage isn't valid because my wife and I weren't married in the Catholic church as we were both cradle Catholics and this time I will not be looking back.

I have attended a Lutheran church a couple times now and really enjoy the services and best of all, our marriage is valid even if we weren't married in a Lutheran church.

Unblievable. If we are legally married according to the country we live in,  then we are married full stop. It doesnt matter whether that took place in a church, a field, a hotel, a garden or anywhere else, as long as it was legal. After all God is everywhere.   

[chosenone]

We all have that power to bind and lose.

[kensington]

lonegreywolf20,

    My husband was baptized as an infant by his mother's choice...  But, she never lived a godly life in her home nor was she a faithful catholic. No prayers, no Bible, no mass does he remember growing up.  For anyone today to say he is bound to her choice for him, thought she has never lived it out is ridiculous.  She too has left the Catholic church.  She got saved at our church years ago and is now a Methodist/Assembly of God. She attends both denoms. Has for 20 years. His other sister too, got saved and left the CC years ago.  She is a godly woman, a true blessing to all. 

[lonegreywolf20]

" My husband was baptized as an infant by his mother's choice..."

This is what happened with me as well. I went through the sacraments up to confirmation because that is what my family wanted and what I thought I had to do in order to make them happy. My whole family is still Catholic.

"But, she never lived a godly life in her home nor was she a faithful catholic. No prayers, no Bible, no mass does he remember growing up."

Same with me. I went to mass, but I went with my grandparents as my grandfather was an usher for the church and became captain of the ushers. My grandmother was active in a women's group for the church. They didn't read their Bible though and only prayed at holiday dinners.

I too do not believe that I should be held to being a Catholic because of a choice that was made for me by my family.

[chosenone]

I was baptised as an anglican, but I dont go to anglican churches and was baptised by full immersion when I was old enough to make my own decision.

[winsome]

 

We do not seek approval of the CC.  He left that and renounced it.

Kensington said: "I do not and never did need the CC to recognize my marriage.  My husband does not need them to approve."

Amen! I went back to the Catholic church after being away from it for many years, only to leave once again after being told that my marriage isn't valid because my wife and I weren't married in the Catholic church as we were both cradle Catholics and this time I will not be looking back. Being told that we are fornicating because we refuse to live as brother and sister. No where in the Bible does it say one must be married in the Catholic church, or that sex is reserved only for those who are married in the Catholic church.

You join the Catholic Church by a formal process.

You can leave the Catholic Church by a formal process. If you choose not to do that then as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, you are still a member and bound by its rules.

[skeeter]

We do not seek approval of the CC.  He left that and renounced it.

Kensington said: "I do not and never did need the CC to recognize my marriage.  My husband does not need them to approve."

Amen! I went back to the Catholic church after being away from it for many years, only to leave once again after being told that my marriage isn't valid because my wife and I weren't married in the Catholic church as we were both cradle Catholics and this time I will not be looking back. Being told that we are fornicating because we refuse to live as brother and sister. No where in the Bible does it say one must be married in the Catholic church, or that sex is reserved only for those who are married in the Catholic church.

You join the Catholic Church by a formal process.

You can leave the Catholic Church by a formal process. If you choose not to do that then as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, you are still a member and bound by its rules.

Does the CC have signatures from all of those 'baptized' babies/little kids showing they joined? That wouldn't even matter to me but it should to those who do consider themselves to be Catholic.  The CC keeps those names on the 'rolls'  to pad their numbers.  Whenever someone posts the # of Catholics they claim to have I just cut the # in half and figure they just might have that 'half #'.  Even then you have to deduct for all the dead Catholics...

That we are still members and bound by their  'rules' is just something they've made up and drilled into you (Catholics) over and over - and you believe them. 
Sort of a version of OSAS isn't it? OCAC?  Do you believe in OSAS? There's no scripture supporting the  CC let alone OCAC.

[Catholica]

Another great video, looking at the writings of Paul as a Realization of how he sees the faith as a convert.  Surprisingly applicable to this subject.

Scott Hahn on the Realization as Catholic Converts

[lonegreywolf20]

winsome said, "You join the Catholic Church by a formal process.

You can leave the Catholic Church by a formal process. If you choose not to do that then as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, you are still a member and bound by its rules."

That is no longer true. There is no longer a formal process to leave the church. The Catholic church has decided that you can no longer decide to no longer be Catholic, and that once Catholic always Catholic in their eyes.

I renounced the Catholic church to God and I believe he accepted my renouncement.

Here is the related document about no longer being about to formally defect from the Catholic church.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_letters/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apl_20091026_codex-iuris-canonici_en.html

[kensington]

Well, there is freedom of Religion in the United states.  And you don't need permission. The Catholic church is in violation of the 1st Amendment of the United States.

My husband did NOT join the church.  He was baptized by his mother and father, forced to go to go through the process of 1st Communion and Confirmation... and when he reached an age of choice, he left.  He chose to exercise his 1st Amendment right and leave the church he did not join by his own volition.  No church can deny him his 1st amendment right of "Freedom of Religion".  No government and no religion. Sorry...  That's how the law goes.

He is not a Catholic.  He will never be a Catholic.  We do still have freedom of religion in American, right?