Why would anyone become Catholic?

[kensington]

What do you mean?  You did not change the Sabbath.  The Jews still keep the Sabbath, and so do Messianic Jews.  Where did the word of God say to change the Sabbath to Sunday?  Or tell man that he could change it?  Verse please?

[winsome]

The Catholic Church did not change the Sabbath. The Sabbath remains the Saturday.

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

[skeeter]

why are  you blaming protestants for doing what the RC did?  The RC  dropped the  'idol'  commandment #2 and then split #10 into 2 (9 and 10).  (blue above)

I looked up how the RC lists them.  pulled up a page that says from the CCC.  lists 3 columns - 1 is how they are in EX,   2 is how they list in Deut and 3  is how the RC lists them

The 2nd commandment (graven image/idols)  for EX and Deut  lists as it should BUT  in the RC column - it's blank!!!  on down it then lists #2  as - 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain'.  That's # 3 in Ex and Deut.

the url has  'vatican.va/archive/ccc' in it.   If we're allowed to post urls,  I'll post the  whole url.

No it hasn't dropped anything.

If you look in the Catechism it is all there.

If you look in the detail in the Catechism you will find four paragraphs on "IV. "You Shall Not Make For Yourself a Graven Image . . ."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7F.HTM


The full first commandment is given on page 453 of my catechism and on the Vatican web site:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7B.HTM
Article 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."

What you are looking at the Col 3 is, as it says, a traditional catechetical formula which is a shortened version to make it easily memorable.

Protestants do this as well. If you go into an old protestant church (perhaps a modern on as well) you will see a list on Commandments on a board. They just give the first sentence or a brief summary. You don't see written up:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.

You just see: Keep Holy the Sabbath Day (or something like that)

As I said before the problem has arisen from the Protestants splitting the first commandment into two and making the second part into something it was not meant to be.

Oh,  the CCC instead of scripture... how silly of me to forget that!!

how about Exodus or Deuteronomy?  They both read -  vs 7 is #1 and vs 8 is #2:

7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

8 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;  9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.  For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.'


In scripture (the Bible) the CC's  9 and 10 are 1 commandment - the 10th.

21 'You shall not covet your neighbor's wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.'

[winsome]

Oh,  the CCC instead of scripture... how silly of me to forget that!!

how about Exodus or Deuteronomy?  They both read -  vs 7 is #1 and vs 8 is #2:

7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

8 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;  9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.  For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.'

If you actually read my post, and read the post it was responding to you, would make such a dumb response.

The accusation was that the Catholic Church dropped the part about graven images from it's version of the Commandments. I therefore needed to quote from the Catechism to show that the accusation was untrue.

Please read the posts before coming out with your knee-jerk negativity

In scripture (the Bible) the CC's  9 and 10 are 1 commandment - the 10th.

Wrong
Dt 5:21 "'Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife;

and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors.'

Two commandments - the 9th and 10th.

You still haven't explained why Protestants split the first commandment into two and thus distort it and make it something it wasn't meant to be..

[Amo]

The Catholic Church did not change the Sabbath. The Sabbath remains the Saturday.

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

Just exactly what do you think the word replace means? If Sunday replaces the Sabbath, then the Sabbath is no more. What ever it takes to remain in denial I suppose.

The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)

The following is from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Sunday- fulfillment of the sabbath
2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:[107]
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.[108]

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."[109] Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

A day of grace and rest from work
2184 Just as God "rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done,"[121] human life has a rhythm of work and rest. The institution of the Lord's Day helps everyone enjoy adequate rest and leisure to cultivate their familial, cultural, social, and religious lives.[122]

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.[123] Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.
The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.[124]

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."[125]

IN BRIEF
2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).

2190 The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ.

2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).

2192 "Sunday . . . is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church" (CIC, can. 1246 # 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

2193 "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound . . . to abstain from those labors and business concerns which impede the worship to be rendered to God, the joy which is proper to the Lord's Day, or the proper relaxation of mind and body" (CIC, can. 1247).

2194 The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their amilial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 # 3).

2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day.


The following quotes are from the APOSTOLIC LETTER DIES DOMINI by John Paul II

Chap. 1
8.............The People of God are called to enter into this same rest by persevering in Christ's example of filial obedience (cf. Heb 4:3-16). In order to grasp fully the meaning of Sunday, therefore, we must re-read the great story of creation and deepen our understanding of the theology of the "Sabbath".

13. The Sabbath precept, which in the first Covenant prepares for the Sunday of the new and eternal Covenant, is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why, unlike many other precepts, it is set not within the context of strictly cultic stipulations but within the Decalogue, the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of the moral life inscribed on the human heart.

14. In the first place, therefore, Sunday is the day of rest because it is the day "blessed" by God and "made holy" by him, set apart from the other days to be, among all of them, "the Lord's Day".

18..............In the light of this mystery, the meaning of the Old Testament precept concerning the Lord's Day is recovered, perfected and fully revealed in the glory which shines on the face of the Risen Christ (cf. 2 Cor 4:6). We move from the "Sabbath" to the "first day after the Sabbath", from the seventh day to the first day: the dies Domini becomes the dies Christi!

Chap.2
23. It was this newness which the catechesis of the first centuries stressed as it sought to show the prominence of Sunday relative to the Jewish Sabbath. It was on the Sabbath that the Jewish people had to gather in the synagogue and to rest in the way prescribed by the Law. The Apostles, and in particular Saint Paul, continued initially to attend the synagogue so that there they might proclaim Jesus Christ, commenting upon "the words of the prophets which are read every Sabbath" (Acts 13:27). Some communities observed the Sabbath while also celebrating Sunday. Soon, however, the two days began to be distinguished ever more clearly, in reaction chiefly to the insistence of those Christians whose origins in Judaism made them inclined to maintain the obligation of the old Law.


Chap.4
59....................More than a "replacement" for the Sabbath, therefore, Sunday is its fulfilment, and in a certain sense its extension and full expression in the ordered unfolding of the history of salvation, which reaches its culmination in Christ.


62. It is the duty of Christians therefore to remember that, although the practices of the Jewish Sabbath are gone, surpassed as they are by the "fulfilment" which Sunday brings, the underlying reasons for keeping "the Lord's Day" holy — inscribed solemnly in the Ten Commandments — remain valid, though they need to be reinterpreted in the light of the theology and spirituality of Sunday: "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labour, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. Then you shall do no work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your servant, or your maid, or your ox, or your ass, or any of your beasts, or the foreigner within your gates, that your servant and maid may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded that you keep the Sabbath day" (Dt 5:12-15). Here the Sabbath observance is closely linked with the liberation which God accomplished for his people.


63. Christ came to accomplish a new "exodus", to restore freedom to the oppressed. He performed many healings on the Sabbath (cf. Mt 12:9-14 and parallels), certainly not to violate the Lord's Day, but to reveal its full meaning: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mk 2:27). Opposing the excessively legalistic interpretation of some of his contemporaries, and developing the true meaning of the biblical Sabbath, Jesus, as "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mk 2:28), restores to the Sabbath observance its liberating character, carefully safeguarding the rights of God and the rights of man. This is why Christians, called as they are to proclaim the liberation won by the blood of Christ, felt that they had the authority to transfer the meaning of the Sabbath to the day of the Resurrection. The Passover of Christ has in fact liberated man from a slavery more radical than any weighing upon an oppressed people — the slavery of sin, which alienates man from God, and alienates man from himself and from others, constantly sowing within history the seeds of evil and violence.

[winsome]

Amo

I've been all though your Sabbath nonesense before. This is not the time or place to rehash that all again, expecially when I see you totally ignore the errors I pointed out to you before.

Keep it for your SDA Forum

[Amo]

Amo

I've been all though your Sabbath nonesense before. This is not the time or place to rehash that all again, expecially when I see you totally ignore the errors I pointed out to you before.

Keep it for your SDA Forum

I didn't bring it up. When you decided to twist the truth in relation to it though, I decided to contest your lie. Replacing one thing with another, is the same as changing it. Changing or replacing a light bulb mean the same thing. You take the old one out, and put the new one in. The old one is gone. Likewise, Catholics do not observe the seventh day Sabbath, but the first day of the week which they call the Lord's day. They teach others to do the same.

[kensington]

Amo

I've been all though your Sabbath nonesense before. This is not the time or place to rehash that all again, expecially when I see you totally ignore the errors I pointed out to you before.

Keep it for your SDA Forum

Ummm your Catholic brother brought it up and took credit for changing it on behalf of the CC.  Maybe you need to read the posts you are replying to with a kneejerk reaction?  Just sayin.

[skeeter]

Oh,  the CCC instead of scripture... how silly of me to forget that!!

how about Exodus or Deuteronomy?  They both read -  vs 7 is #1 and vs 8 is #2:

7 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

8 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image - any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;  9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.  For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.'

If you actually read my post, and read the post it was responding to you, would make such a dumb response.

I wasn't the one making a dumb response.

btw, would you re-read YOUR post above in red as it should be read with the punctuation you used - then post what it means?

The accusation was that the Catholic Church dropped the part about graven images from it's version of the Commandments. I therefore needed to quote from the Catechism to show that the accusation was untrue.

Please read the posts before coming out with your knee-jerk negativity

no, it was really that the RC  took away the 2nd commandment and lumped it in with #1.  Then when they 'shorten' it (for memorization...) they can leave off the graven image part and pretend it doesn't exist.

if the RC went by God's word you wouldn't have had to go check the CCC.

In scripture (the Bible) the CC's  9 and 10 are 1 commandment - the 10th.
   

Wrong  Dt 5:21 "'Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife;

and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbors.'

Two commandments - the 9th and 10th.

Not wrong.  A semicolon doesn't end a sentence.  Note the semicolon after the word WIFE in vs 21 (in red above).  The semicolon is there in the Catholic Bible also.  It's all part of verse 21.  There's nothing in the Bible (ex or deut) to direct someone to split vs 21 into 2 commandments.

Deut 5:21 -    'You shall not covet your neighbor's wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.'

You still haven't explained why Protestants split the first commandment into two and thus distort it and make it something it wasn't meant to be.. 

It doesn't distort it and wasn't meant to be 1 commandment.
vs 7 (deut 5) is the first 'you shall...'  it ends with a period.  It states not to have other gods before Him.

vs 8  starts with the 2nd 'you shall (not)...'  it's about graven images and defines it somewhat.  then it says not to bow down to them or serve them.  Then He gives us the reason we shouldn't  and the consequences if one does and if one doesn't.

Then vs 11 goes into another 'you shall not'... take God's name in vain.

so with vs 11 being #3 and counting down to vs 21 on coveting, that equals 10.


#1 = no other gods
#2 =  not to make carved/graven images/ likenesses



so, why does the RC split commandment 10 into 2?

[skeeter]

The Catholic Church did not change the Sabbath. The Sabbath remains the Saturday.

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

says who - besides the  RC/CCC?  Can you post a Bible verse? (bk, chptr,vs)

'ceremonial observance ' ??  that's a new one to me.

[winsome]

Ummm your Catholic brother brought it up and took credit for changing it on behalf of the CC.  Maybe you need to read the posts you are replying to with a kneejerk reaction?  Just sayin.

Wrong again.

Ladonia did not say the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath. This is what he actually said

And I am right, starting with the change of Christians worshipping on Sunday. I mean really, the Scriptures are clear on the matter, so I don't know why anyone, especially a Catholic would dispute this. We are actually fulfilling the Scriptures that God gave His church here on earth. Hey, if we are wrong about this we Catholics and our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters are in big trouble with God our Father.

We changed the day of worship not the Sabbath.

It was you who made the jump to the Sabbath

What do you mean?  You did not change the Sabbath.  The Jews still keep the Sabbath, and so do Messianic Jews.  Where did the word of God say to change the Sabbath to Sunday?  Or tell man that he could change it?  Verse please?

[Ladonia]

Kensington said: Really?  The only time you have posted the word of God is to twist it.

I don't think you are in any position to talk about twisting the word of God.

[Ladonia]

Skeeter said: if the RC went by God's word you wouldn't have had to go check the CCC.

And WHO decides  if the RCC is going against the word of God? Certainly not you or any other adherents of the thousands of other Christian sects out there.

[winsome]

 

I wasn't the one making a dumb response.

btw, would you re-read YOUR post above in red as it should be read with the punctuation you used - then post what it means?

When you are reduced to quibbling about a punctuation error you have lost the plot.

no, it was really that the RC  took away the 2nd commandment and lumped it in with #1.  Then when they 'shorten' it (for memorization...) they can leave off the graven image part and pretend it doesn't exist.

if the RC went by God's word you wouldn't have had to go check the CCC

Wrong again. The Catholic Church followed the Jews who treat Ex 20:3-6 & Dt 5:7-10 as one Commandment.

2. Prohibition of Improper Worship This category is derived from Ex. 20:3-6, beginning, "You shall not have other gods..." It encompasses within it the prohibition against the worship of other gods as well as the prohibition of improper forms of worship of the one true G-d, such as worshiping G-d through an idol.
(http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm)

See also:
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Shavuot/In_the_Community/Torah_Reading_and_Haftarah/The_Ten_Commandments.shtml

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/command.htm

http://judaism.wikia.com/wiki/Ten_Commandments
etc.

Note also that where these Jewish sites use the short catechetical form of just giving "You shall have no other gods but me". But as with Catholics they go straight to "You shall not take the name of the Lord your G-d in vain" as the next commandment.

The Reformers received the full & proper first commandment from the Catholic Church but then proceed to alter it. It's worth noting that the first to break away was Martin Luther who started the Lutherans, who still use the Catholic numbering.

[winsome]

 

Not wrong.  A semicolon doesn't end a sentence.  Note the semicolon after the word WIFE in vs 21 (in red above).  The semicolon is there in the Catholic Bible also.  It's all part of verse 21.  There's nothing in the Bible (ex or deut) to direct someone to split vs 21 into 2 commandments.

Punctuation is a modern invention. There were no full stops, commas or semi-colons in the original Hebrew. They were put in by the translators according to their interpretation of the text.


Here is the literal translation of Deut 5:17-21 without any punctuations.
Not you shall murder and not you shall commit adultery and not you shall steal and not you shall answer in associate of you testimony of futility and not you shall covet woman of associate of you and not you shall lust house of associate of you field of him and servant of him and maidservant of him bull of him and donkey of him and anything to associate of you


If you divide it up starting each "and not" as a new commandment you get:
Not you shall murder
and not you shall commit adultery
and not you shall steal
and not you shall answer in associate of you testimony of futility
and not you shall covet woman of associate of you
and not you shall lust house of associate of you field of him and servant of him and maidservant of him bull of him and donkey of him and anything to associate of you

Then you can see that it's legitimate to treat coveting a neighbours wife and coveting his chattels as two different commandments.

[Red Baker]

It's worth noting that the first to break away was Martin Luther

Since Luther cannot speak for himself, I will help him:

HERETICS NEEDFUL
Martin Luther Reformer

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." [1Cor 11:19]

Heretics are useful. We don't realize how good it is for us to have opponents. If Cerinthus hadn't lived, John would never have written what we have of his. Cerinthus attacked the person of Christ, and this compelled John to write and declare, 'In the beginning was the Word' [John 1:1]. John made the distinction of the three persons [of the Trinity] so clear that it couldn't be made clearer.

So, too, Eck provoked me. He made me wide awake. I wished from the bottom of my heart that he would return to the way [of salvation], and therefore I wanted to strike out against him with my fist in the hope that he might be converted. But if he was always to remain as he had been, I wished him the papacy. He would have deserved it. He took all kinds of work upon himself, although he was in part paid for this, for he received income of seven hundred gulden from the parish in Ingolstadt alone. He would have been an inexpensive pope. They had nobody else who might have done it. He gave me my first ideas, and without him I would never have got this far.

Accordingly our opponents are very useful to us, although they think they do us harm.

Martin Luther
"Heretics Perform Unwitting but Useful Service"
Table Talk Winter of 1542-1543
Luther's Works Vol. 54, pp. 444-445

[skeeter]

I wasn't the one making a dumb response.

btw, would you re-read YOUR post above in red as it should be read with the punctuation you used - then post what it means?

When you are reduced to quibbling about a punctuation error you have lost the plot. 

I'd say if you're ignoring the punctuation, you've lost the plot.
As happened in 2 of your posts I read last  night.  It can often change the meaning of a sentence. 

vs 21 is all about coveting anything that belongs to your neighbor.

I notice that in 'quoting'  you left off  vs 21 (the 10th commandment) as in Ex and Deut.  with it's punctuation.  And the sentence you posted with punctuation that  changed it's meaning.  Sometimes it can make a sentence meaningless.

here's vs 21 of Deut 5 in the GNV (prev I posted it from the NKJV I think) -

21 'You shall not covet your neighbor's wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.'

no, it was really that the RC  took away the 2nd commandment and lumped it in with #1.  Then when they 'shorten' it (for memorization...) they can leave off the graven image part and pretend it doesn't exist.

if the RC went by God's word you wouldn't have had to go check the CCC 

Wrong again. The Catholic Church followed the Jews who treat Ex 20:3-6 & Dt 5:7-10 as one Commandment.

here's a great shocker.  I'm not Jewish.  Are you?
Tho, I do often find great wisdom from Jewish people.  I often listen to studies by 2 different Rabbis.  One is a Christian and one is not.

fyi (again) - I don't click on urls/links  in posts.

[skeeter]

Ummm your Catholic brother brought it up and took credit for changing it on behalf of the CC.  Maybe you need to read the posts you are replying to with a kneejerk reaction?  Just sayin.

Wrong again.

Ladonia did not say the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath. This is what he actually said

And I am right, starting with the change of Christians worshipping on Sunday. I mean really, the Scriptures are clear on the matter, so I don't know why anyone, especially a Catholic would dispute this. We are actually fulfilling the Scriptures that God gave His church here on earth. Hey, if we are wrong about this we Catholics and our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters are in big trouble with God our Father.

We changed the day of worship not the Sabbath.

It was you who made the jump to the Sabbath

What do you mean?  You did not change the Sabbath.  The Jews still keep the Sabbath, and so do Messianic Jews.  Where did the word of God say to change the Sabbath to Sunday?  Or tell man that he could change it?  Verse please?

so the RC  added a 'day of worship'  and made it a mortal sin to miss that man made 'day of worship'.

better to follow the CC than God's commandment?

[winsome]

 

I notice that in 'quoting'  you left off  vs 21 (the 10th commandment) as in Ex and Deut.  with it's punctuation.  And the sentence you posted with punctuation that  changed it's meaning.  Sometimes it can make a sentence meaningless.

here's vs 21 of Deut 5 in the GNV (prev I posted it from the NKJV I think) -

21 'You shall not covet your neighbor's wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.'

Skeeter,

As you ignored my post, here it is again:

Punctuation is a modern invention. There were no full stops, commas or semi-colons in the original Hebrew. They were put in by the translators according to their interpretation of the text.


Here is the literal translation of Deut 5:17-21 without any punctuations.
Not you shall murder and not you shall commit adultery and not you shall steal and not you shall answer in associate of you testimony of futility and not you shall covet woman of associate of you and not you shall lust house of associate of you field of him and servant of him and maidservant of him bull of him and donkey of him and anything to associate of you
 
 
If you divide it up starting each "and not" as a new commandment you get:
Not you shall murder
and not you shall commit adultery
and not you shall steal
and not you shall answer in associate of you testimony of futility
and not you shall covet woman of associate of you
and not you shall lust house of associate of you field of him and servant of him and maidservant of him bull of him and donkey of him and anything to associate of you
 
Then you can see that it's legitimate to treat coveting a neighbours wife and coveting his chattels as two different commandments.
 

here's a great shocker.  I'm not Jewish.  Are you?
Tho, I do often find great wisdom from Jewish people.  I often listen to studies by 2 different Rabbis.  One is a Christian and one is not.

So skeeter,

God gave the commandments and the Law to the Jewish people over 1,000 years before Christ. For over 1,000 years then, you believe they divided up Ex 20:3-6 & Dt 5:7-10 incorrectly and God did nothing to correct them. And then for another 1500 years the Catholic Church made the same mistake.

What is your theory? God waited  2,500 years and sent the Martin Luther to get it right?

But no. Martin Luther didn't get it right either. So God had to send more Reformers to correct the original mistake.

Get real skeeter.
 

[winsome]

fyi (again) - I don't click on urls/links  in posts.

OK, I'll waste server space:


2. Prohibition of Improper Worship This category is derived from Ex. 20:3-6, beginning, "You shall not have other gods..." It encompasses within it the prohibition against the worship of other gods as well as the prohibition of improper forms of worship of the one true G-d, such as worshiping G-d through an idol.
  (http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm)

Same as Catholics.

Second Commandment (Exodus 20:3-6): You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Shavuot/In_the_Community/Torah_Reading_and_Haftarah/The_Ten_Commandments.shtml

Same as Catholics.

2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/command.html

Same as Catholic catechetical formula.


2. You shall have no other gods but me.
http://judaism.wikia.com/wiki/Ten_Commandments

Same as Catholic catechetical formula.

[mclees8]

First Commandment (Exodus 20:2): I am the Lord Your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Second Commandment (Exodus 20:3-6): You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth


[color=teal]Winsome a page or so back I noted that the ten Commandments were written on stone by God which signifies they were final and for all time, and that  being all ten were all wrote on the same tablets of stone.  I believe you agreed in post 201.

Now what parts would you say were only for Old Testament Israel, and what parts were for gentiles.
Just placate me on this OK  Is it the first  2 legal code for BC Israel (Sinai Covenant) and the last 8 moral code for A D gentiles?  Is that the correct division?[/color]

[winsome]

Winsome a page or so back I noted that the ten Commandments were written on stone by God which signifies they were final and for all time, and that  being all ten were all wrote on the same tablets of stone.  I believe you agreed.

NO! I did not agree that. 


What I agreed to in that part of your post was:

You say: "Gods moral commandments are for all men and for all time"

Agreed. That is exactly what I have been saying

Now what parts would you say were only for Old Testament Israel, and what parts were for gentiles.
Just placate me on this OK  Is it the first  2 legal code for BC Israel (Sinai Covenant) and the last 8 moral code for A D gentiles?  Is that the correct division?

Mclees I have been though all this- see post#171

[mclees8]

Quote from: mclees

Winsome a page or so back I noted that the ten Commandments were written on stone by God which signifies they were final and for all time, and that  being all ten were all wrote on the same tablets of stone.  I believe you agreed.


NO! I did not agree that. 


What I agreed to in that part of your post was:


Quote from: winsome

You say: "Gods moral commandments are for all men and for all time"

Agreed. That is exactly what I have been saying





Quote from: mclees

Now what parts would you say were only for Old Testament Israel, and what parts were for gentiles.
Just placate me on this OK  Is it the first  2 legal code for BC Israel (Sinai Covenant) and the last 8 moral code for A D gentiles?  Is that the correct division?



Mclees I have been though all this- see post#171

[color=teal]I went back and re-read 171.  That does not get me the answer I am asking for. I am asking is my assessment about commandments 1&2 and commandments 8- 10 a correct essessment of your beliefs?[/color]

[winsome]

I went back and re-read 171.  That does not get me the answer I am asking for. I am asking is my assessment about commandments 1&2 and commandments 8- 10 a correct essessment of your beliefs?

I don't understand why you are splitting commandments 1 & 2 from 8-10.

Also whose numbering are you working from?

[Catholica]

A very interesting story about a Calvinist who found her reason to become Catholic despite many hardships.

From http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2014/11/my-plea

The day my soul became Catholic was the day I found out that as a divorced and remarried woman I could not receive Communion. Tears of sorrow and joy flowed. Sorrow because I had by then grasped the truth of transubstantiation, only to find I couldn't consume, and joy because at last we found the ground of real authority—his Church, the one he founded, the one tasked to keep all he taught her Apostles.

I came to Catholicism from Calvinism. That's a tough row to hoe if there ever was one. It was that prescient and beautiful encyclical Humanae Vitae which softened my heart to the Catholic Church. After that, I couldn't get enough. I wanted to hear what the Church believed in her own words. And so I kept reading—Theology of the Body, Familiaris Consortio, Mulieris Dignitatem, and Church documents significant to those of us coming from the Reformed tradition.

Because I had been divorced, and because another family member recently left his marriage after forty-three years, our children had many doubts and questions about marriage. One day around the dinner table one of the kids voiced their anxiety, stating in our presence that "you never know" if both mom and dad will be there for you as you grow up.

This clued us in to how deeply they had been affected by our choices and the culture that made them possible. As Christian parents we were keen to bring up our children in a Church unwavering on marriage. The Catholic Church offered a rich and beautiful doctrine of marriage in all its fullness, especially as a picture of Christ's marriage to his bride, the Church. This vision was slowly leading us to consider the Church's other claims.

But there's more to coming to the Catholic faith than theological reading. As any convert can attest, there are many ups-and-downs during the journey: Struggling with doctrine followed by insights from magisterial passages coupled with Scripture, feeling still and alone followed by being overwhelmed by the presence of the saints before us, crying out to God for His presence and having Him answer in the Blessed Sacrament. Many times I woke up in the middle of the night thinking: How can I be considering Catholicism? But then in the morning at daily mass praying the liturgy, I experience the profound presence of God, even though I do not take the Eucharist.

Since I cannot now receive the Eucharist, it is through spiritual communion that I am kept spiritually fed by the Lord. This act of willing reception is not, as some may think, second-class communion. Far from it. To believe so is to diminish one of the ways Christ feeds his people, as Hans Urs von Balthasar warns in his book, Prayer:

    For spiritual communion is by no means merely an act of longing for the reception of the Lord under the sacramental signs; much deeper, and more properly, it is the act of prayer of a living and understanding faith, by which it enters into living communication and communion with Christ, the eternal and living Truth.

Balthasar wants to impress upon the reader the objective reality of spiritual communion. It is not the absence of something but the presence of him. I don't get to pine or indulge in self-pity during the distribution of the Eucharist. And God forbid I should become angry with my priest or the Church for not giving me Communion. As Archbishop Charles J. Chaput put it during the 2014 Erasmus lecture, "none of us are welcome on our own terms, in the Church we're welcome on Jesus' terms. That's what it means to be a Christian, you submit yourself to Jesus and His teaching. You don't recreate your own body of spirituality."

Before you feel sorry for me, remember that the Church didn't do this to me. I did this to myself when I disobeyed my God by walking away from my first marriage. Was I young and immature? Yes. Were there circumstances that drove me to such drastic measures? Sure. And yes, I am currently pursuing a Decree of Nullity, trusting God for a just decision. Whatever the outcome, I can not, and will not walk away from the Church for standing firmly on the teachings of Christ.

Some people may be shocked at the idea of submitting to a church that tells me because I'm divorced and remarried I can't take Communion. But unless it can be shown otherwise, any tampering with Communion for the divorced and remarried will corrupt the doctrine of marriage, and—by diminishing the image of the Church as bride of Christ—debase the Church.

I have run to her for shelter. I now pray—for my sake, for my children's—that the Church will not waver.

Luma Simms is the author of Gospel Amnesia. Follow her @lumasimms.

[mclees8]

I went back and re-read 171.  That does not get me the answer I am asking for. I am asking is my assessment about commandments 1&2 and commandments 8- 10 a correct essessment of your beliefs?

I don't understand why you are splitting commandments 1 & 2 from 8-10.

Also whose numbering are you working from?


Second Commandment (Exodus 20:3-6): You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Shavuot/In_the_Community/Torah_Reading_and_Haftarah/The_Ten_Commandments.shtml

     Same as Catholics.

[winsome]

Second Commandment (Exodus 20:3-6): You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Shavuot/In_the_Community/Torah_Reading_and_Haftarah/The_Ten_Commandments.shtml

     Same as Catholics.

The Commandment is the same as Catholics but the Jewish numbering is slightly different.

The above is the 1st commandment for Catholics.

I still don't understand what your point or question is.

[skeeter]

Second Commandment (Exodus 20:3-6): You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Jewish_Holidays/Shavuot/In_the_Community/Torah_Reading_and_Haftarah/The_Ten_Commandments.shtml

     Same as Catholics.

The Commandment is the same as Catholics but the Jewish numbering is slightly different.

The above is the 1st commandment for Catholics.

I still don't understand what your point or question is.

Then it ISN'T  the 'same as Catholics' - is it?

[winsome]

Then it ISN'T  the 'same as Catholics' - is it?

The actual COMMANDMENT is the same.

[mclees8]

I went back and re-read 171.  That does not get me the answer I am asking for. I am asking is my assessment about commandments 1&2 and commandments 8- 10 a correct essessment of your beliefs?

I don't understand why you are splitting commandments 1 & 2 from 8-10.

Also whose numbering are you working from?


     Same as Catholics.

The Commandment is the same as Catholics but the Jewish numbering is slightly different.

The above is the 1st commandment for Catholics.

[color=teal]Now the world at large for the most part cares nothing about the Ten commandments. Only by a certain assent maybe. Yes the laws were Given to Israel at  Saini. The Mosaic laws were for Israel, but the Ten commandments were special. God wrote them on stone. I don't really care for all the Catholic language to much. It only confuses things for me. I think of what does the tablets of stone mean. We have sayings like something to be written in stone. It implies final and for all time. So God wrote His ten commandments on stone and they were placed in the Ark as you say and to this day no one has ever found them. God will never allow that. Nothing of His message for us will ever be defiled. Gods moral commandments are for all men and for all time. Now no man has ever lived up them yet it will be a beacon of Gods will forever[/color][/color].

You say: "Gods moral commandments are for all men and for all time"

Agreed. That is exactly what I have been saying


So you are saying then that all the ten Commandments are Gods moral laws for all men then and forever? 



We look to them as the moral code for all believers, not just one part this and one that. They are all moral law every one  of them, and must be seen seriously. We know that no one is able to keep them perfectly but they are Gods will that we must not trifle with them as to fudge around them for our own purposes and ideals but that is exactly what you councils do while encouraging  Catholics to also do. We cannot make up excuses as to what they mean. Its no accident that God deals with idols first. Nothing will minimize or stand beside Him. No, not even icons of saints or Mary.  You say bowing and praying to her image is not praying and bowing to her image. Go head you just keep saying that. There's an old saying though, when in doubt leave out. It would be better for you when it comes to making excuses that trifle with God's word to not do it. Only the Holy Spirit reveals and convicts of sin but if you ignore Him your hearts will harden. Let those who hear listen. 

More opinions

Here you say that's just opinion
So I am now asking are all the ten commandments moral law for all of us then and now?

[winsome]

Mclees,

I'm saying what I keep saying. The Ten Commandments were given to the Israelites as part of their Covenant Law. It's their legal code.

They are, mostly, but not completely, an codification of God's eternal moral law. Not all the Ten Commandments are moral law. Not all moral law is in the Ten Commandments.

God's eternal moral laws (e.g. do not murder) are applicable to all people through all time.

You will find them expressed in the New Covenant and it's the New Covenant that we are in to not the Old Covenant.

I went all though this in post #187

Let me put this another way in secular terms

I live in England and I'm subject to the English Law. That will include many of God's eternal moral laws (e.g. do not murder).

If I move to France I will be subject to French Law. That will include many of God's eternal moral laws (e.g. do not murder)

That does not mean that God's moral law, English law and French Law are all the same thing.

[mclees8]

They are, mostly, but not completely, an codification of God's eternal moral law. Not all the Ten Commandments are moral law. Not all moral law is in the Ten Commandments.


I hear a lot of fancy justification, but could you tell me which parts are moral law and what part is not by the number. Was the numbers as I already stated?  Who determined the division. You don't half to bother we already know who did the dividing.

While I was reading this there is a verse that jumps into my mind.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.  Is 55:8, 9

Who is so high minded, to think they can fudge and divide The Ten Commandments so they can justify their own doings

This scripture from Isaiah is not just for the Old testament but speaks of the eternal Lord. How is it that you justify and divide Gods Laws according to your own wisdom so you can justify your own purposes. Who is doing the defining?   Is it not your magisterial that does these things, and did they not give themselves the power to do them according to the dictates of their own justification.

Gods ten commandments are moral and absolute without division. Why are the first two commandment first before all the rest. because they speak of Idolatry which is a most vial and wicked sin against God. How then can you separate then to call them something else so you can justify you own idolatry?

[winsome]

 They are, mostly, but not completely, an codification of God's eternal moral law. Not all the Ten Commandments are moral law. Not all moral law is in the Ten Commandments.


I hear a lot of fancy justification, but could you tell me which parts are moral law and what part is not by the number. Was the numbers as I already stated?  Who determined the division. You don't half to bother we already know who did the dividing.


It's very easy. The moral law is scattered throughout the New Testament.

Does Jesus tell us not the make images in the New Testament? Answer - No

Does Jesus tell us the keep the Saturday Sabbath in the New Testament? Answer – No

All we need to keep is given us in the New Testament.

Gods ten commandments are moral and absolute without division.

No they are not.


Why are the first two commandment first before all the rest. because they speak of Idolatry which is a most vial and wicked sin against God. How then can you separate then to call them something else so you can justify you own idolatry?

Firstly only one commandment speaks of idolatry. And just so we don't have any confusion over numbering that is Ex 20:3-6 (Dt 5:7-10). It's the Protestants who separated out this into two commandments, thus causing a lot of confusion. I've been all though this with skeeter – see posts #202, #206, #223, #224,  #228, #229

[mclees8]

 Gods ten commandments are moral and absolute without division.

No they are not.


So it is obvious that you say they are divided. I ask which ones then are moral and which ones are not by their number. The Ten commandments are our moral guide for all time. Jesus said I did not come to take away from the law but to fulfill it.  We may not be under the Mosaic law which I have known all the time by the way. But Gods Ten Commandments are our moral guide. Don' t tell me it was the wicked Protestants that divided it. You are the one who is upholding the division . You and your magisterial. Read your own words.  What is the division by number please?

[Catholica]

Gods ten commandments are moral and absolute without division.

No they are not.


So it is obvious that you say they are divided. I ask which ones then are moral and which ones are not by their number. The Ten commandments are our moral guide for all time. Jesus said I did not come to take away from the law but to fulfill it.  We may not be under the Mosaic law which I have known all the time by the way. But Gods Ten Commandments are our moral guide. Don' t tell me it was the wicked Protestants that divided it. You are the one who is upholding the division . You and your magisterial. Read your own words.  What is the division by number please?

Here is a simple explanation for you Mike.

God's moral law is eternal; it existed from the beginning.  God's moral law was reflected in the Ten Commandments, which he gave in time to the nation of Israel.  That is, you can see the moral law in the Ten Commandments, but they are not exactly the same thing.

For a simple analogy, compare grapes to grape juice cocktail.  The grapes came before grape juice cocktail, and grape juice cocktail is based on grapes, and is one way to use grapes, but is not the same as grapes, because it has grapes plus other stuff in it.  It is a handy way to get grapes but is not the same as grapes itself.  Similarly the Laws of the New Testament are like wine to grapes.  Wine is another grape product, but is not the same as grapes, though it is based on grapes.  Wine is not the same as grape juice cocktail either.

Now the Ten Commandments are a convenient way to understand the moral law because the commandments themselves reflect very closely the moral law.  However they are not the same as the moral law.  Part of the Ten Commandments was formulated for Israel in the way they were because the nation of Israel was coming out of Egypt.  In Egypt they worshiped all kinds of "gods" and "idols" (cult images they were called).  In Egypt they also worked all week long with no rest (Exodus 5:5).

The "letter of the law" was observed by the Jews, but not the spirit of the law.  They found ways around obeying the laws they had while still living up to the letter of the law.

The spirit of the law concerning idols can be summed up in "you shall have no gods before me".  God alone is deserving of worship and no other entity can be worshiped as a god.  For the Israelites, to break them of their Egyptian practices, God in addition forbid the making of images along with the worship of images: two things that were common in Israel.  They were God's hedge around the actual moral law, the moral law which has as its foundation the worship of God alone.

However Christianity did not come from a place of the worship of images, nor does it now, Catholic or not.  There was no need to break Christians from these practices of ancient Egypt where the actual object of worship was a false god made into a molten or graven image.  Christians have always worshiped God and God alone.  And so there was no need for there to be any kind of hedge around that law, at least, not in the Bible.  That is, there was no need to forbid the making of "images of any thing" because this practice was no longer a problem that took away from the worship of the true God.

The Church was put in charge of creating hedges around the law from time to time.  For example, the Catholic Church found that some nuns were actually worshiping images of Mary and refused to stop so the Church excommunicated them.  If the same were to come into general practice, then the Church would probably modify Canon law to put a hedge around that as well in the form of forbidding images.  But it has never gotten that bad.  What Catholics do is true to who God is in the economy of salvation, and isn't the same as what the Egyptians taught the Jews to do in Egypt.

The other law that God specified directly in the Old Testament was Sabbath keeping.  The spirit of that law was one of weekly rest, and one of weekly worship.  God used the creation story to dictate the day of rest with reference to the creation story.  In the New Covenant we are also observing the spirit of that law, of weekly rest and worship.  Only now, we do so with reference to the new creation on the eighth day, that of the resurrection of Jesus.  Thus a new Law has come about in the New Covenant, and it is also finds its foundation on that same moral law but is guided also by the new reality of Jesus, his resurrection and the fact that now we have seen the image of God.

In short, because of the incarnation and the resurrection, the implementation of the weekly rest has changed to Sunday and the making of images and use for prayer aids is no longer forbidden.