Catholics Do Not Worship Idols .

[mclees8]

mclees8, do you keep the sabbath?




Who were the ones to change it?  They alone will have to answer for that.   And they changed the laws of God. Just like they defied Gods Ten Commandments

[skeeter]

skeeter says : " I don't listen to or watch a video posted on a forum.  If you can't say it and get it across in your own words then that's too bad. "

That's your prerogative . You can watch the video or not watch it .

oh well, now that you approve...

I'm not the one who posted this -  "We Catholics know what we are doing , and those who hear us need to accept our integrity when we speak on this issue .
The following two videos tell the truth of Catholic practice better than I can do .
Just listen to them , and respect the trustworthness of the one speaking . I agree with all he says wholeheartedly ."

how about - Those of us who are no longer C know what we are saying.  You need to accept our integrity when we speak on this issue and respect our trustworthiness ...



We've been where you are and are so blessed to be where we are now.  It's something I could never have even imagined existed - not something ever told/taught exists or possible by the RC (or any other church I went to up to that time).  One can't understand it until it happens to them. No C I know (or have talked to) has experienced it.  It makes having 'eyes that see and ears that hear'  completely literal in one's life.  It was like walking out of a life lived in fog into sunshine (Sonshine), freshair and rainbows. A 360 degree turn in life.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Do any of our good friends here worship the statue of Abe Lincoln in D.C. that their tax dollars help maintain? Or is that statue just a visible reminder of the man who led the fight to keep the union together?

Forget the statue.  What if they pray to Lincoln?  I mean, he's alive, in heaven or something, right?

[Catholica]

Do any of our good friends here worship the statue of Abe Lincoln in D.C. that their tax dollars help maintain? Or is that statue just a visible reminder of the man who led the fight to keep the union together?

Forget the statue.  What if they pray to Lincoln?  I mean, he's alive, in heaven or something, right?

They could, and he could help them by praying for them, if he is in heaven.  That is true.  But you could do that anywhere, no statue or bust or picture or butter sculpture or wood carving of Lincoln required.  Though having one nearby or even in front of you wouldn't be a problem.

Catholics know that there is no power in statues and the church doesn't require their use when praying.  Being human we sometimes need crutches to help us focus or to inspire us to pray fervently, and knowing that someone in heaven has endured what we endured or been in our situation, knowing that can make them a useful help humanly speaking, a real spiritual help.  Because those who are in heaven have been taken up into the divine life, not themselves divine, but rather they have been granted a share of the divine life, and through God, they are able to continue to pray with us, their brothers and sisters.

2 Peter 1:4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

[Paulus]

Statues of "Protestant Reformers" .   

On the Reformation Wall !!! 

Can this be real ? 

Well , yes it is . 

Just click the link below . 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=The+Reformation+Wall+in+Geneva,&client=firefox-a&hs=5zY&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&channel=np&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=sbhOVIKNNsmP7AaI94CQDA&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=667

[winsome]

Priceless!

Do you think this lot are praying to the protestant statues   

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Do any of our good friends here worship the statue of Abe Lincoln in D.C. that their tax dollars help maintain? Or is that statue just a visible reminder of the man who led the fight to keep the union together?

Forget the statue.  What if they pray to Lincoln?  I mean, he's alive, in heaven or something, right?

They could, and he could help them by praying for them, if he is in heaven.  That is true.  But you could do that anywhere, no statue or bust or picture or butter sculpture or wood carving of Lincoln required.  Though having one nearby or even in front of you wouldn't be a problem.

Catholics know that there is no power in statues and the church doesn't require their use when praying.  Being human we sometimes need crutches to help us focus or to inspire us to pray fervently, and knowing that someone in heaven has endured what we endured or been in our situation, knowing that can make them a useful help humanly speaking, a real spiritual help.  Because those who are in heaven have been taken up into the divine life, not themselves divine, but rather they have been granted a share of the divine life, and through God, they are able to continue to pray with us, their brothers and sisters.

2 Peter 1:4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Do you suppose a butter sculpture would help?  I'm not sure old Abe would be very helpful to someone like myself, what with my origins lying south of the Mason-Dixon.

Jarrod

[skeeter]

The Israelites had a similar situation as the Catholics have.
One day they decided to make themselves a golden calf. So they got some gold together and had the high priest carve one for them.
When the high priest was done, he said "Ok guys, tomorrow we celebrate finishing the golden calf and we have a feast for the Lord".

So the thing was that all the Israelites could bend their knee for the golden calf...but as long as it was a worship to God, everything supposedly was dandy.
The next day 3000 men were killed by instruction of God.

See, contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches, God does not want to share His place.

The command in the Ten Commandments states this:
"You shall not bow down to them OR serve them..."

Catholics may say "but we do not worship statues"...that's hardly the point. The commandment states that one is not even allowed to bow down to them.
The command does not say "not bow down AND serve them" it states "not bow down OR serve them".
This is not about worshiping statues...it's about bowing down to them. Something Catholics do.

Now the Douay Rheims translation translates Exodus 20:5 as follows: "Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them"
This is an obvious and mistranslation on purpose from the Hebrew word that expresses prostration, bowing down, falling down etc.

In the original scripture, the Ten Commandments are numbered clearly.
The Catholic Church however took command #2 and consolidated it with command #1.
As to make up for the shortfall, they split up command #10, as to arrive at a total on 10 again.

So the church that accuses Protestants from changing the Old Testament by removing books, allows itself to go into that same Old Testament (which they proudly proclaim to have made canon) and make changes to the text.

The Catholic Church defends their change of the numbering of the Ten Commandments, because Augustine did so too.
But here is what Augustine said about idolatry in the church:

"Does anyone worship or pray with his eyes fixed on the image, without being persuaded that the image is hearing his petition and without hoping that it will give him what he wants? Probably not. So thoroughly entangled do people become in such superstitions that they often turn their backs on the real sun and pour out their prayers to the statue they call Sun;..."

And

"It may be objected that we ourselves have many vessels and other accessories made of similar metals, which we use in the celebration of the sacraments. They are consecrated to divine service and are called holy in honor of him who is worshipped through their use for our salvation. Such vessels and implements are obviously the work of human hands: what else could they be? But do they have mouths that will never speak, or eyes that will never see? And does the fact that we make use of them to offer our supplications to God mean that we are begging anything from them? Of course not.

The principal cause of insane, blasphemous idolatry is this: a form resembling that of a living person- a form that by its lifelike appearance seems to demand worship- is more powerfully persuasive to the emotions of its wretched suppliants than the plain fact that it is not alive and ought to be scorned by anyone who is. The evidence of mouths, eyes, ears, nostrils, hands, and feet in the idols has more power to lead an unhappy soul astray than the evident inability on their part to speak, see, hear, smell, handle things, or walk has power to bring such a soul back to the truth."


There just is so much contradiction in the Catholic Church when it comes to veneration of saints and statues.
But most surprisingly of all...theologically the Catholic Church wants us to believe that they don't really need statues.
Yet, almost every empty corner in church and home are stuffed with statues and icons of saints. A Bible however is hard to find.

well, if that ain't hitting the nail on the head!   

and every second in front of a statue or praying to Mary or saints should be spent humbled before our Lord in prayer to HIM.  HE  died for us,  not those saints and not Mary.  If they were the way to God we wouldn't need Jesus.  Might as well say He died in vain - cause that's what it translates to.  God's word tells us there is ONE way to God - that is Jesus.

[Amo]

" picture is worth a thousand words."

http://www.angelfire.com/la2/prophet1/images/maryworship.jpg

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_idolaters.jpg

http://catholicphilly.com/media-files/2013/05/SMM-pope.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BscIbn2-efw/Thcq_v6KoRI/AAAAAAAAAI8/E5xmWhE2Wkg/s1600/praying%2Bwith%2BMary.jpg

http://www.comeaside.com/images/scan0003.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Ostrabrama-prayer.jpg/240px-Ostrabrama-prayer.jpg

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/popepray.jpg

http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/shrineofolofgoodhelpwisconsin.jpg

http://defendingcontending.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/mary-statue-worship.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aYVUnXWj1xM/UMI_ypXoa9I/AAAAAAAAATo/tH3SUiAibdE/s320/z149489521.jpg

http://dilemmaxdotnet.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/pope-francis-and-pope-emeritus-benedict.jpg

http://agana-archdiocese.org/wp-content/uploads/Oct-10-Fatima-Photo-for-Sked-Story.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ESS-kyJ9KfY/TvRw3q1uAsI/AAAAAAAAJHA/d4Xgx9QUZv0/s640/Pope-prays-to-Mary.jpg

http://www.ncregister.com/images/uploads/jpII_Ukrainep.jpg

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/lf51d9ca1e.jpg

[mclees8]

Hey AMO, your pictures do not prove that any of those people praying are worshipping the statues or pictures they are in front of. Yes, they are actually praying - praying to God the Father in heaven - and that is the truth of the story.

But you folks shouldn't talk. I have seen your "church's", where there is nothing but a pulpit in a building with bare walls, sorta like a rental hall where dances and such take place. Jesus is shoved aside, his command that we memorialize his day on Calvary through the Holy Eucharist dismissed in favor of some pastor giving some type of sermon.

I have to feel sorry  for you.  Was not the Holy Spirit invoked  in a common upper room where 120 were filled with the Holy spirit on the day of Pentecost. Where was the ritual and the Eucharist and priest in ceremonial dress with  ball of incense on  chain.  The Lord is not in a box of religious thinking. We don't memorialize HIm with fancy ritual but a life the exemplifies Christ and worships Him in spirit and in truth. God is not impressed with religious grandeur and outward shows of religion

Was not all that Jesus did done in the common arena. Was not all we see of the apostles in the common arena Where was all the fancy religion then. How can you say such foolish things?    

[skeeter]

Yes, they are actually praying - praying to God the Father in heaven - and that is the truth of the story.

But you folks shouldn't talk. I have seen your "church's", where there is nothing but a pulpit in a building with bare walls, sorta like a rental hall where dances and such take place. Jesus is shoved aside, his command that we memorialize his day on Calvary through the Holy Eucharist dismissed in favor of some pastor giving some type of sermon.

'you folks'?   you've 'seen' some churches?  you're lumping a ton of denoms / churches into one again...

btw, some ARE a rented room - my sister's church doesn't have a bldg. at this time.  sometimes they rent a room and sometimes they meet at different homes.   Is that a problem for you?  Sounds like how it was done in NT.   Do you need all those statues, carvings, carpet, pews etc to hear the word of God and worship Him?  I don't - just my Lord and His word.   Dancing? wow. There was dancing in the bible too...

Jesus shoved aside? nope, I don't  think so - not any I've been to.  Oh they're out there for sure.  Many churches don't teach the word of God.  They barely read a few scriptures - maybe just a few each week.  The ones I've been to have Jesus at front and center.  It's ALLl about Him.  Not about Mary or any dead saints. oh, they come up sometimes - when the scripture mentions them or they are the ones who wrote it.  We don't spend days celebrating any of those dead saints - we celebrate Christ Who died for us and gave us life.

We don't dismiss communion.  It's available anytime - we're all priests and can take it anytime.  We don't have to wait until a particular day or place or person.  If you don't 'see' them take communion on Sunday morning, maybe they did on Sunday night - or Wednesday night at Bible study and worship svc?  When I became a Christian I normally went to church 3 times a week. or more.

'some type of sermon'?  I guess it's unfamiliar to you.  Those I've been to teach directly from God's word (the Bible) and we have our Bibles with us to follow along.  Many people takes notes (on paper or in their Bibles).  Some have the verses put up on a huge screen so everyone can see it there too.  The teaching follows along tying in verses from OT and NT - not just a few verses  taken out of context and unrelated. The teaching can easily last an hour (or more).  I've never noticed anyone wiggling (maybe kids) or leaving before it's finished.  Some teachings go in a series so the topic  continues for a number of weeks.

You can find many churches in every area that don't teach the Bible.  They teach what is comfortable, PC, easy - nothing that stirs the waters like Christ did.  They are dead churches and if one isn't careful they can get stuck in one - and some don't know the difference because they don't know God yet.

When someone gets saved they are told to find a good 'Bible teaching' church.  If they need guidance in that, someone will help them.  Each person is responsible for what they study and learn.  IF they are saved this is what they will do - and it often takes going to a number of different churches to find one that does teach straight from God's word.

from what you posted about 'you folks' you must be 'seeing' some pretty dead churches.  Are you just checking them out? visiting?

[kensington]

Yes, our churches are void of Statues and Gold, Tons of Religious garb and nonsense, but the Pulpit where the Word is taught.  Isn't you word read from a pulpit?  You know, that stand that holds the bible someone reads and kisses during mass?  Yes we have that to hold the Bible the word is taught from.

No crucifixes, no statues, no candles burning, No statue of Jesus, because we worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. If you have Jesus in Spirit...  You don't need a statue of him.  The presence of the Holy Spirit is wonderful and powerful thing.  No Statues needed.  Jesus is never shoved aside, but worshipped in Spirit and Truth. By the hearing of His word. 

Yes, we have aisles and pews some of them, but we don't hop up and down in them like rabbits.  We don't stand and "Repeat after me" all service either.  We do no repetitious praying. 

Sorry that doesn't work for you, and your religiousness...  But, sitting on a mountain side was good enough for Jesus, I think our sanctuaries void of all the worthless, religious trappings are good enough.  I'd still go if we had no pews and no pulpit.  Jesus never had any of that.

[Paulus]

Winsome it makes one think , as you say : " Priceless!

Do you think this lot are praying to the protestant statues    "

It seems that some go on pilgrimage there .   

Yet surely these Protestant statues , if the words of some on this forum are correct , are idols .

It seems that an American Protestant pilgrim is annoyed because Martin Luther's statue isn't there . 
Geneva Reformation wall

Oh , good , Luther does get a mention as these , I presume Chinese Protestant pilgrims , show as they gaze upon these idols . Well I suppose it makes a change for them from having an idol of Chairman Mao gazing down on them .

Anyone speak Chinese ? Are they chanting some sort of litany to these Protestant idols ? 

Then inside the building to find more idols . 

제네바 종교개혁기념비와 제네바대학 Reformation Wall

[Amo]

Hey AMO, your pictures do not prove that any of those people praying are worshipping the statues or pictures they are in front of. Yes, they are actually praying - praying to God the Father in heaven - and that is the truth of the story.

But you folks shouldn't talk. I have seen your "church's", where there is nothing but a pulpit in a building with bare walls, sorta like a rental hall where dances and such take place. Jesus is shoved aside, his command that we memorialize his day on Calvary through the Holy Eucharist dismissed in favor of some pastor giving some type of sermon.

My comments in blue

A NIGHT PRAYER TO
OUR BLESSED MOTHER

Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o'er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.

They are kneeling before an image of Mary.  Thanking her for her protection, not God's, and asking her, not God to keep evil away.

Many times have I fallen Mother dear;
Many graces neglected since last I knelt here;
Wilt thou not in pity, my own Mother Mild,
Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child?

We cannot ask forgiveness of God through another, and expect to receive the same.  If I sin against you, I must confess to you, if I want your forgiveness.  Refusing to do so, will be refusing to humble myself before you, and ask for that which I need, which of course I will not receive if I do not do so.  How much more does this apply to our sins against God?  All sin is against God. 

It would be one thing, if because of circumstances beyond our control, the only way we could ask forgiveness was through another. But this is not the case.  Jesus has made it possible for each of us to approach God the Father directly, and receive forgiveness from the same in His precious and holy name.  Thus when we seek to obtain forgiveness from God through another than Christ, we will not receive the same, since God has made it possible for each of us to approach Him for the same through His Son Jesus Christ.  He didn't just make it possible, He payed the ultimate price to make it so.  It is an affront to God to seek forgiveness from Him from another than Christ, who sacrificed all for the same.

The old covenant days of needing another to be a go between for the forgiveness of our sins, are over.  Christ is the go between, and High Priest of the new covenant.  We can receive forgiveness through no other.

I am going to sleep now, day's work is done;
Its hours and its moments have passed one by one.
God Who will judge me, has counted them all;
He has numbered each grace, He has counted each fall;

In His book they are written against the last day.
Oh! Mother Ask Jesus to wash them away.
For one drop of His Blood for sinners was spilt,
Is sufficient to cleanse the world of its guilt.

She cannot do that for us.  We must do it for ourselves, or it will not happen.

And if er' the dawn I should draw my last breath;
The sleep I take be the long sleep of death;
Be near me Mother for dear Jesus' sake.
When at eternity shore my soul shall awake.

Amen.


THE PRAYER
A SALUTATION TO THE IMMACULATE.
(For the 150th Anniversary
of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)

O Immaculate Virgin Mary,
Mother of God and Our Mother:
Queen of Heaven and Earth,
Mediatrix of every grace!

The above is blasphemy.  Grace comes to us through Christ alone, who was and is God.  John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Mary was a sinful fallen human being like the rest of us.  The scriptures say nowhere that grace came, or comes by her.

Thou through whom dost shine the whole splendor
and magnificence of the Trinity!

More blasphemy.  In Christ alone is all the fulness of the Godhead.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

O Fount of Light!
O Light of all lights!
O shining Brightness of the Eternal Light!

More blasphemy.   
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

I Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

O spotless Mirror of the Divine Majesty!
O Window upon the Divine Nature!
O Portal opening unto Eternity!
O blessed Gate of Heaven!
O Doorway thru which has shone the Light of men!
O Door of the Most High King!
O Horizon out of which is arisen the Sun of Justice!
O Promontory above the Ocean of Divinity!
O Watchtower before the blazing Majesty of God!
O Star of the Sea!
O Star of Heaven, who alone has crushed all the Stars
fallen from Heaven!

All blasphemy.  All attributes of Christ who is God, given to Mary.

O Morning Star, who has merited to usurp the name of the first fallen Star!
Thou who dost now gaze upon the wondrous abundance of the Divine Vision,
as the One closer to the Face of God than all creatures!
Rejoice O Thou, who has borne the Clarity of the Eternal Light!
Rejoice, O glorious and mystical City of God!
Rejoice, O Thou, who art more glorious than the Sun,
more beautiful than the Moon,
who dost shine more golden than the dawn,
more brightly than the stars.
Rejoice O Mother of the Lamb, the Light of the City of
God, who has made Thee shine forever with His own incomparable Light!
Rejoice, O Immaculate Virgin,
who dost hold the Light of God in the palms of Thy hands,
who dost behold the Child Jesus,
the Eternal Light,
in wondrous glory for all eternity!
Rejoice O Most Blessed Virgin,
for it is through Thee that all the Angels of Heaven
and all the Choirs of the Elect
art enlightened and filled with the Incomparable Radiance!

Absolute incomprehensible blasphemy.

O Immaculate Mother,
lead us to Heaven,
inflame us with the Divine Love,
let shine upon us that same light of glory
which Thou dost behold forever!
Let us see What Thou dost see and gaze upon Him in Trinity,
that we may share the fullness of Thy Heart's joy forever!
Let it be!
Let it be!

Amen.

No, but Christ leads the way.  Those who look to Mary to lead them to heaven, will be lead straight to the lake of fire.  Please turn your eyes away from Mary, and unto Jesus.

PRAYER OF POPE PIUS XII
Consecration To The Blessed Virgin
Most Holy Virgin Mary,
tender Mother of all,
to fulfill the desires of the Sacred Heart
and the request of the Vicar of your Son on earth,
we consecrate ourselves
and our families
to your Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart,
O Queen of the Most Holy Rosary,
and we recommend to you,
all the people of our country
and all the world.

Please accept our consecration,
dearest Mother,
and use us as you wish
to accomplish your designs upon the world.

O Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary,
Queen of the Most Holy Rosary,
and Queen of the World, rule over us,
together with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, Our King.
Save us from the spreading flood of modern paganism;
kindle in our hearts and homes the love of purity,
the practice of a virtuous life,
an ardent zeal for souls,
and a desire to pray the rosary more faithfully.

We come with confidence to you,
O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love.
Inflame us with the same Divine Fire
which has inflamed your own Sorrowful
and Immaculate Heart.
Make our hearts and homes your shrine,
and through us,
make the Heart of Jesus,
together with your rule,
triumphant in every heart and home.

I will have no other God's before Him alone who is God.  All who think to share the rule of their hearts and minds with any other than Jesus Christ, are in danger of losing their souls.  Christ absolutely did not come to earth to establish a co-rulership of humanity with Mary. 

 

[winsome]

Yes, our churches are void of Statues and Gold, Tons of Religious garb and nonsense, but the Pulpit where the Word is taught.  Isn't you word read from a pulpit?  You know, that stand that holds the bible someone reads and kisses during mass?  Yes we have that to hold the Bible the word is taught from.

No crucifixes, no statues, no candles burning, No statue of Jesus, because we worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. If you have Jesus in Spirit...  You don't need a statue of him.  The presence of the Holy Spirit is wonderful and powerful thing.  No Statues needed.  Jesus is never shoved aside, but worshipped in Spirit and Truth. By the hearing of His word. 

Yes, we have aisles and pews some of them, but we don't hop up and down in them like rabbits.  We don't stand and "Repeat after me" all service either.  We do no repetitious praying. 

When C S Lewis converted from Aethism to Christianity he looked around at all the world's religions. He said they fell into two types – like soups. Some were thin and clear like consommé, some were thick and dark like minestrone. Christianity, he said, is both thin (philosophical) and thick (sacramental, mysterious).

Modern Protestantism, though Christian, has strained out all the mystery and sacramentalism and is left with a thin un-nourishing gruel.   


I prefer the richness of the Catholicism to the thin gruel of Protestantism.

Sorry that doesn't work for you, and your religiousness...  But, sitting on a mountain side was good enough for Jesus, I think our sanctuaries void of all the worthless, religious trappings are good enough.  I'd still go if we had no pews and no pulpit.  Jesus never had any of that.

Hmm!
Jesus never went and preached in the Temple?
Jesus never attended the Jewish religious festivals?
Jesus never wore Jewish garb like a prayer shawl?

[AVZ]

Sorry that doesn't work for you, and your religiousness...  But, sitting on a mountain side was good enough for Jesus, I think our sanctuaries void of all the worthless, religious trappings are good enough.  I'd still go if we had no pews and no pulpit.  Jesus never had any of that.

Hmm!
Jesus never went and preached in the Temple?
Jesus never attended the Jewish religious festivals?
Jesus never wore Jewish garb like a prayer shawl?

Let me get this right.
First you say that what the Catholic Church does is all OK because the instructions in the Old Testament are only for Jews and not Gentiles.
And then you say that what the Catholic Church does is all OK because it aligns with what the OT Jews did?

How is this not a contradiction? At least pick a position and stick to it.

[winsome]

Let me get this right.
First you say that what the Catholic Church does is all OK because the instructions in the Old Testament are only for Jews and not Gentiles.
And then you say that what the Catholic Church does is all OK because it aligns with what the OT Jews did

WRONG!

You said "But, sitting on a mountain side was good enough for Jesus, I think our sanctuaries void of all the worthless, religious trappings are good enough.  I'd still go if we had no pews and no pulpit.  Jesus never had any of that."

I pointed out that Jesus didn't just sit on mountains and have no religious trappings.

[AVZ]

This is where Catholic idolatry has ended up:

The head of John the Baptist can be found in the Basilica of Saint Sylvester the First in Rome.
It can however also be found in the Amiens Cathedral in France.
Similarly that same head can be visited in the Podromos Monastery in Romania.
Fortunately for those in the Middle East, the head can also be found in the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus.
And last but not least, part of the skull rests in Munich as well.

The right hand of John the Baptist can be located in the Cetinje Monastry in Montenegro.
Funny enough, Johns "second right hand" can also be visited in the Dyonisiou Monastery in Greece
A hand, but this time with an arm attached, is displayed in Istanbul
And in 2010 some people started digging on St. Ivan Island in Bulgaria...and what did they find? Yes...a hand, part of a skull and a tooth...all belonging to John the Baptist
Oh, in Kansas City they also have a finger of John the Baptist.

Funny is that at all the above places you can buy yourself a little statue of John the Baptist, bring it home for veneration and marvel to have been in the presence of the real remains of the man who baptized Christ.
Or line up to have your picture taken together with one of the 5 heads presently known to be authentic, after which you can purchase a candle and kneel in front of the head to send your prayers up to the man who's head this was before.

How is this not idolatry?

[Paulus]

It seems like some of the Protestants on here are a bit confused about their church buildings .

Take a look at Ulm Minster . It is the tallest church in the world , and a Protestant one at that .

Evangelische Domkirche - Ulm (Deutschland) - Orgel

Take a look at Westminster Abbey , one of the foremost Protestant churches in England .

London, England: Westminster Abbey

Yes , at one time they used to be Catholic .

Don't worry . In my little treasure trove I have plenty of Protestant churches which have always been Protestant , but are still festooned with beautiful images and icons .

[DaveW]

Take a look at Ulm Minster . It is the tallest church in the world , and a Protestant one at that .

Take a look at Westminster Abbey , one of the foremost Protestant churches in England .

Yes , at one time they used to be Catholic .

Don't worry . In my little treasure trove I have plenty of Protestant churches which have always been Protestant , but are still festooned with beautiful images and icons .

And a wide swath of protestants (evangelicals, fundamentalists) consider all of them (esp Luthern and Church of England) to be too "catholic." In fact the Fundamentalist Baptists consider Southern Baptists too catholic - calling them "BaptoCatholics."

[Paulus]

I have been in numerous Protestant churches which , and I haven't enough fingers and toes to count them , have statues and icons .

I take it that the Protestants who worship in them have no problems with statues in their churches .

I have been in the company of hundreds of  Protestants who have knelt and prayed before a statue of Mary .

I take it that these Protestants have no problem in kneeling before a statue of Mary and praying .

It would appear to be that the Protestants who frequent this Catholic forum with their sneering and mocking , and I have more than enough fingers and toes to count these sad anti-Catholics , are not representative of Protestantism .

Thank God , and I ask the Catholics who use this Catholic forum to take note , that the Protestants on here do not reflect the Protestants in the real world .

Thank God that the Protestants in the real world are quite different from the anti-Catholics on here .

[Ladonia]

Paulus, you are correct in your last post. It can be said that some of those who come here to the Catholic section can be most virulent in their opposition to anything that even smacks of being Catholic. Why I ask is a picture, icon, or statue of a biblical figure considered idolatry when the object considered is not in itself worshipped? That is the basic definition of idolatry and we do not do this.

Every person should accept the reality that we Catholics only worship God our creator in the form of the Incarnate Word,  Jesus Christ. Any statement to the contrary by any of our fellow Christians who come here to post, is, since they have been told what we believe,  bearing false witness against another.

[Alan]

Every person should accept the reality that we Catholics only worship God our creator in the form of the Incarnate Word,  Jesus Christ.

I think it would be entirely judgemental to assume anything else.

[mclees8]

I have been in numerous Protestant churches which , and I haven't enough fingers and toes to count them , have statues and icons .

I take it that the Protestants who worship in them have no problems with statues in their churches .

I have been in the company of hundreds of  Protestants who have knelt and prayed before a statue of Mary .

I take it that these Protestants have no problem in kneeling before a statue of Mary and praying .

It would appear to be that the Protestants who frequent this Catholic forum with their sneering and mocking , and I have more than enough fingers and toes to count these sad anti-Catholics , are not representative of Protestantism .

Thank God , and I ask the Catholics who use this Catholic forum to take note , that the Protestants on here do not reflect the Protestants in the real world .

Thank God that the Protestants in the real world are quite different from the anti-Catholics on here .


This is not an accurate observation, but based on a desired opinion.

A more accurate observation is that this whole image and bowing thing has brought much controversy and confusion to the Lords church  It was evident since the iconoclasm. It matters not that your councils ruled in favor of their own ideals

[skeeter]

Let me get this right.
First you say that what the Catholic Church does is all OK because the instructions in the Old Testament are only for Jews and not Gentiles.
And then you say that what the Catholic Church does is all OK because it aligns with what the OT Jews did

WRONG!

You said "But, sitting on a mountain side was good enough for Jesus, I think our sanctuaries void of all the worthless, religious trappings are good enough.  I'd still go if we had no pews and no pulpit.  Jesus never had any of that."

I pointed out that Jesus didn't just sit on mountains and have no religious trappings.

I think you do attempt to confuse.  I see what you have quoted here attributed to Kensington  posted in #51 by AVZ.
OTOH, I think you are the one confused.

btw, Jesus was a Jew.  He was raised as a Jew.  Why wouldn't He be in a Temple or at a festival?  Even into His ministry,  where would He find the Jews He wanted to reach?  In a Temple ... at the festivals.  Matt - John He sought to minister to the Jews.  As for the prayer shawl - I don't see gold on it.  it doesn't look to be satin or some other luxurious fabric either. 

[winsome]

Whoops!,

My apologies to kensington

[skeeter]

Winsome it makes one think , as you say : " Priceless!

Do you think this lot are praying to the protestant statues   

It seems that some go on pilgrimage there .   

Yet surely these Protestant statues , if the words of some on this forum are correct , are idols .

It seems that an American Protestant pilgrim is annoyed because Martin Luther's statue isn't there . 

Oh , good , Luther does get a mention as these , I presume Chinese Protestant pilgrims , show as they gaze upon these idols . Well I suppose it makes a change for them from having an idol of Chairman Mao gazing down on them .

Anyone speak Chinese ? Are they chanting some sort of litany to these Protestant idols ? 

Then inside the building to find more idols . 

Isn't this some sort of Reformation Institute?  probably listed on some US tour  brochure for visitors.  Is it even in the US?  I don't know - I've never seen it before or heard of it.

So, you make fun of some people that you don't know are protestant then turn around in a later post and whine about  some others (that you call protestant - you don't know if they are or not)  questioning you (and other Catholics) about your  unbiblical and inconsistent beliefs.  There probably wouldn't be so much of it if you were up front about things, stopped dodging the questions and just answered them honestly - without denying what the CC teaches.  Then you complain about mclees?  Most times a question is asked here of a Catholic, ya'll do a double twisted jig around it... sliding in attacks on protestants as you do.  And you don't even know who is a protestant and who isn't. 

oh right. anyone who isn't a Catholic is protestant to you...

ya'll remind me of democrats attacking republicans.  Whatever they accuse the republicans of doing or saying, the dems already did, are doing or are planning to do in the near future.

I think the number of protestants scares  Catholics/ the RC.  That includes the millions of former Catholics who have left the RC (tho still being counted by the RC) and turning to protestant churches.  There are many, many going to those churches who aren't even Christian.  They don't know Christ and they don't know God's word.  They were either raised protestant, born into a protestant family (or a Catholic one) and  have for some reason decided they need a church to go to - so they go to one of the many, many protestant denom churches. Many of those churches are dead churches - which makes it easy for someone to go without committing to anything but an hour on Sunday morning.

[Paulus]

Pleased you have changed your mind , skeeter , and have started to view the videos . 

You are still a bit muddled though .

You say : " I think the number of protestants scares  Catholics . " 

I can't sleep at night .

I keep looking under the bed for Protestants . 

[Paulus]

Ladonia , thanks for saying : " Paulus, you are correct in your last post. It can be said that some of those who come here to the Catholic section can be most virulent in their opposition to anything that even smacks of being Catholic. Why I ask is a picture, icon, or statue of a biblical figure considered idolatry when the object considered is not in itself worshipped? That is the basic definition of idolatry and we do not do this.

Every person should accept the reality that we Catholics only worship God our creator in the form of the Incarnate Word,  Jesus Christ. Any statement to the contrary by any of our fellow Christians who come here to post, is, since they have been told what we believe,  bearing false witness against another. "

It's very true about what you say of the anti-Catholics who come on here , blinkered , prejudiced and bitter as they seem .

I know they are nowhere near being representative of Protestants , at least the Protestants I know in the real world .

As for what you say about idolatry , they are not going to admit the truth , because that would be to counter their own agenda .

I just add that I have ceased to attempt to dialogue with them .

However Charlie Chaplin did say : " A day without laughter is a day wasted. " So I must visit the forum each did and get my tonic of laughter to ease the pains of life .

[skeeter]

Pleased you have changed your mind , skeeter , and have started to view the videos . 
You are still a bit muddled though .

You say : " I think the number of protestants scares  Catholics . "

I can't sleep at night .

I keep looking under the bed for Protestants . 

no, I haven't.  you wasted 'pleased' time.  I looked at one that had a block of pics on it.  Was easy enough to see what it was.  That wasn't a video. Maybe you don't know what a video is.

keep your day job.  Jay Leno isn't  worried about you keeping him from work.

[skeeter]

Ladonia , thanks for saying : " Paulus, you are correct in your last post. It can be said that some of those who come here to the Catholic section can be most virulent in their opposition to anything that even smacks of being Catholic.

there's one of those words... guess you used it so some won't know what you mean tho.
who's blinkered, prejudice and bitter? 

Why I ask is a picture, icon, or statue of a biblical figure considered idolatry when the object considered is not in itself worshipped? That is the basic definition of idolatry and we do not do this.

yes, you do.  I think you forget that some of us were Catholic. Raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools and Mass (I went at least 6 days a wk during the school yr) ... we know.

Every person should accept the reality that we Catholics only worship God our creator in the form of the Incarnate Word,  Jesus Christ. Any statement to the contrary by any of our fellow Christians who come here to post, is, since they have been told what we believe,  bearing false witness against another. "

no, the truth is not bearing false witness.

It's very true about what you say of the anti-Catholics who come on here , blinkered , prejudiced and bitter as they seem .

I know they are nowhere near being representative of Protestants , at least the Protestants I know in the real world .

Sounds like the protestants you know IRL don't know much about Catholicism.  Do they know what you post about them/their beliefs?

As for what you say about idolatry , they are not going to admit the truth , because that would be to counter their own agenda .

sounds like a dem talking about a repub... so you're a student/fan of Alinsky?

I just add that I have ceased to attempt to dialogue with them .

... but you can sure dish it out - right?

[Star of David]

As a person who was raised Catholic, but am a non-practicing Catholic now, it amazes me how some Protestants drum up this "Catholics worship statues" drama. As I have told a few, to me, having statues of Mary and Joseph and other figures from the Christian religion in church is no different than going to Washington, D.C. and seeing statues of our nations leaders and heros from the past.  During mass, Catholics occasionally glance at these statues, but nothing more.

Some Protestants simply enjoy being divisive, which certainly is going against the spirit of being Christ-like.

[Paulus]

skeeter you ask : " Sounds like the protestants you know IRL don't know much about Catholicism.  Do they know what you post about them?

What have I posted about the Protestants whom I know , many of whom are friends and family ?

I can only recall that I have singled them out as not being like the few intolerant and prejudiced anti-Catholic Protestants who come on this forum .

I have the greatest respect for the Protestants I know . I am happy to work and pray with them and they with me .

As I have said before , the few anti-Catholics who come on here are not typical of the Protestants I know . And I do not base my views on Protestantism on the anti-Catholicism I see on this Catholic forum .

The Protestants I know would be nauseated by the rubbish which the anti-Catholics post on here .

[skeeter]

As a person who was raised Catholic, but am a non-practicing Catholic now, it amazes me how some Protestants drum up this "Catholics worship statues" drama. As I have told a few, to me, having statues of Mary and Joseph and other figures from the Christian religion in church is no different than going to Washington, D.C. and seeing statues of our nations leaders and heros from the past.  During mass, Catholics occasionally glance at these statues, but nothing more.

Some Protestants simply enjoy being divisive, which certainly is going against the spirit of being Christ-like.

you're still Catholic...  Do you ever see those in DC kneeling at those statues? put flowers at the feet of them and/or a wreath on their head?  Do they pray to those statues (or those they represent)?  doubtful.
No, Catholics usually don't during mass - it's before and after Mass and at other times that they kneel in front of them, light candles before them etc.

btw, Jesus was often divisive, confusing and contrary during His ministry on earth.

[kensington]

Yes, I have been to DC to see some monuments to men who contributed to our society and government.  NO... NO... NO... I did not take any statues home with me, or pray to them in any fashion.  I did not kneel before them for any reason.  I did not compared them to any deity or God on any level. 

I have no statues of them in my home to remind me what they did for our country.  No.  I do not need any statue to remind me what God has done, or to worship Him and pray to Him.  God is Spirit, Jesus is Spirit.  No Statues needed.  The word of God shows us the truth about worship.  I read my Bible, I study my Bible, I do not wave it around and kiss it when reading the Word in study.  I seek to learn God's will for me through embracing what it says to be and do. 

You know the Lord says that as the time draws near to the final days of the church on earth, people will persecute us, hate us and even drag us off to jail for our faith. It could be a perilous time for the Church.  I hope I can grab a bible if I need to flee for safety.  I will trust Him and pray. Leaning on the Holy Spirit for guidance.

What will you do?  How will you carry your statues then?  How will you pray?  How will you seek God and take communion without all of your religious trappings. Do you believe that you will go through what the rest of the Body of Christ will face on earth according to the Word of God?  But, if you cannot worship God alone in prayer.  How will you make it?  How will you escape the deception that comes on the earth?  Will your statues deliver you?