The Spiritual and Corporal Works of Mercy .

[mclees8]

There will be none more recognized in heaven more over another. These ideas are of the flesh.

That's not true.

And ?

And?   

Saying that's not true is insufficient as an answer. Live up to your own demands and state your case

You made no case for your original statement.  You first.

I already stated it Op17  to which you said  "that's not true"  which was acknowledging that you read my point.  It your turn now.  The lord has no favorites only men. I proved it with the Lords parable OP18  so state you defense please.

[winsome]

There will be none more recognized in heaven more over another. These ideas are of the flesh.

That's not true.

And ?

And?   

Saying that's not true is insufficient as an answer. Live up to your own demands and state your case

You made no case for your original statement.  You first.

I already stated it Op17  to which you said  "that's not true"  which was acknowledging that you read my point.  It your turn now.  The lord has no favorites only men. I proved it with the Lords parable OP18  so state you defense please.

Post #17 was just a statement of your opinions with no evidence supplied.

Post #18 was about salvation not rewards in heaven. It has no relevance to your claim "There will be none more recognized in heaven more over another. These ideas are of the flesh."

[Paulus]

Practising the works of mercy was a Dutch Protestant whose life and writings have inspired me over the years .

She was Corrie Ten Boom .

During World War II a 50-year old single woman had a brick wall built through her bedroom to create a "hiding place" for Jews and other fugitives from the Nazis who had occupied her country. Corrie ten Boom and her family suffered and some of them died in providing shelter during the genocidal storm that swept Europe.

The ten Booms lived in Haarlem, Holland, where Corrie came from a long line of watchmakers. She learned the trade and became the first woman licensed in Holland as a watchmaker. She also engaged in social work, organizing girls clubs and also groups for families with developmentally disabled children.

Then in 1940 the German army invaded and occupied Holland. The Nazis banned Corrie's girls clubs, but the heaviest restrictions fell upon the Jews of Holland. As Jews started to be arrested and their property seized, the ten Boom family joined the Dutch underground in assisting Jews to escape. At first they kept small numbers of fugitives for a night or two before helping them make their way to other safe houses and eventually to neutral countries or to remote places where they could hide throughout the war. Corrie helped secure a hundred precious food ration cards that were only supposed to be given to non-Jews. Corrie took the illegally gained ration cards and distributed them to help feed the Jews in hiding. When the ten Booms were sheltering a family with a baby a friend who was a pastor of a church in a village outside Haarlem visited them. They asked if the pastor would take the family to their home for the next step of their journey, but the pastor replied, "Definitely not! We could lose our lives for that Jewish child!" Corrie's father Casper ten Boom picked up the baby and held it tenderly in his arms: "You say we could lose our lives for this child. I would consider that the greatest honour that could come to my family."

Soon the ten Booms were faced with refugees who were difficult to place in other safe houses, people too old or too sick to travel or with such strongly Semitic features that they could not be disguised safely. They decided they needed to provide some permanent shelter within their own home, so they constructed the "hiding place" up in Corrie's third floor bedroom, the furthest point from the door where searching police might enter. An elderly cantor from a local synagogue, Meyer Mossel, was their first permanent hide-away guest. Mossel and Casper ten Boom would recite the Psalms together. Eventually a core group of seven fugitives joined their family household along with the on-going steady flow of visitors who would stay for just a few nights.

The ten Boom family not only hid the Jews but honoured their culture and faith. The entire household kept the Sabbath. They celebrated Hanukkah. They prepared kosher food as long as possible until the time when food shortages left them without meat for weeks. When Corrie's sister Betsie secured some sausage for the hungry household, Mossel said, "There's a provision for this in the Talmud ... and I'm going to start hunting for it, too, just as soon as dinner's over!" The graciousness of these Jews and Christians living intimately together under grave threat brought much joy and even humour amid the fear and anxiety.

In February 1944 someone betrayed the family to the German Gestapo. The house was raided, and a trap set to seize anyone who came to the house throughout the day. Thirty people in all were arrested, but the hiding place was not found. The four Jews and two Dutch underground workers who had been hustled into the hiding place stayed in that cramped wall cavity for 47 hours until the underground finally rescued them. Three of the four Jews who had been hiding during the raid and one of the underground members survived the war.

Meanwhile, Corrie ten Boom and her family were taken to a series of prisons and concentration camps. Caspar ten Boom died within ten days. Corrie's nephew Christian ten Boom died in Bergen Belsen. Her brother Willem, an ordained Protestant minister, died shortly after the war from tuberculosis he contracted in prison. Corrie and Betsie were sent to the notorious Ravensbruck concentration camp. As she was dying from starvation and disease Betsie told Corrie, "There is no pit so deep that God's love is not deeper still." On December 30, 1944, Corrie ten Boom was freed from Ravensbruck on what appeared to be an administrative mistake. She spent the rest of the war recovering from the deprivations she had suffered.

Following the war Corrie established rehabilitation centres for disabled people and for survivors of the Nazi concentration camps and prisons. She began to write down her stories, writing a number of books including The Hiding Place, which was later made into a film . Corrie ten Boom is honoured as one of the "Righteous Among the Nations" by the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial.

It is estimated that Corrie ten Boom and her family helped rescue about 800 Jews during the Holocaust. She died on her 91st birthday. Jewish friends said that only very blessed people are allowed the special privilege of dying on their birthday.

I am certain she is among the blessed in Heaven .

[Paulus]

This film of Corrie Ten Boom is well worth watching .

It beats much of the rubbish we come across on our mass media .

The Hiding Place full movie Corrie Ten Boom

[mclees8]

There will be none more recognized in heaven more over another. These ideas are of the flesh.

That's not true.

And ?

And?   

Saying that's not true is insufficient as an answer. Live up to your own demands and state your case

You made no case for your original statement.  You first.

I already stated it Op17  to which you said  "that's not true"  which was acknowledging that you read my point.  It your turn now.  The lord has no favorites only men. I proved it with the Lords parable OP18  so state you defense please.

Post #17 was just a statement of your opinions with no evidence supplied.

Post #18 was about salvation not rewards in heaven. It has no relevance to your claim "There will be none more recognized in heaven more over another. These ideas are of the flesh."

Why do you always resist the Holy Spirit? Op 17 was wrote in the spirit and wisdom of Gods word which you only use for your convenience. Can a man push against the wind. I am surprised you portray to have understanding of the word and not know of what I was speaking.  Listen to your beloved Peter.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him . Ac 10:34-35

No respecter of persons. Does God favor one over another. I spoke the truth I Op17 yet you would be so blind a to resist it. In the Olympics they strive for greatest medal. Spiritually we should all strive for the mark of the High calling in Christ Jesus but in the judgment seat Of Christ the trophy is entering into the kingdom. there will be no brag or one respected more than another. If ones works are burned he will suffer shame but his reward still goes with him. He will enter heaven just as any other.

If you believe differently then please  show your evidence.

[winsome]

There will be none more recognized in heaven more over another. These ideas are of the flesh.

That's not true.

And ?

And?   

Saying that's not true is insufficient as an answer. Live up to your own demands and state your case

You made no case for your original statement.  You first.

I already stated it Op17  to which you said  "that's not true"  which was acknowledging that you read my point.  It your turn now.  The lord has no favorites only men. I proved it with the Lords parable OP18  so state you defense please.

Post #17 was just a statement of your opinions with no evidence supplied.

Post #18 was about salvation not rewards in heaven. It has no relevance to your claim "There will be none more recognized in heaven more over another. These ideas are of the flesh."

Why do you always resist the Holy Spirit? Op 17 was wrote in the spirit and wisdom of Gods word which you only use for your convenience. Can a man push against the wind. I am surprised you portray to have understanding of the word and not know of what I was speaking.  Listen to your beloved Peter.

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him . Ac 10:34-35

No respecter of persons. Does God favor one over another. I spoke the truth I Op17 yet you would be so blind a to resist it. In the Olympics they strive for greatest medal. Spiritually we should all strive for the mark of the High calling in Christ Jesus but in the judgment seat Of Christ the trophy is entering into the kingdom. there will be no brag or one respected more than another. If ones works are burned he will suffer shame but his reward still goes with him. He will enter heaven just as any other.

If you believe differently then please  show your evidence.

Post #17 was just your opinion.

That God finds us acceptable doesn't mean some do not get a greater reward in heaven than others.

So you still haven't given any evidence for your claim.

But here is some from my side:

Let's start with Luke 22:28-30, Jesus speaking to the apostles
It is you who have stood by me in my trials;  and I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father has conferred one on me,  that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Do we all get to sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel?
No - just the apostles


Rev 4:4
Surrounding the throne I saw twenty-four other thrones on which twenty-four elders sat, dressed in white garments and with gold crowns on their heads.
Do we all get to sit on thrones with crowns on our heads?
No, just the twenty four "elders"


Rev 7:13-14
Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, "Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?"  ...... "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb
Do we all have white robes?
No, just the onres who survive the time of great distress.


Rev 14:1
Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
Do we all get to stand on MountZion with the Lamb's name and the Father's name written on our foreheads?
No, just the hundred and forty-four thousand


Then Jesus says:
Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. (Mt 5:11-12)
The implication is that these people will get a greater reward than others.


Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is righteous will receive a righteous man's reward. (Mt 10:41)
Different rewards otherwise Jesus commeny is pointless.


Paul says:
The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labour. (1Cor 3:8)
Some work harder and get a greater reward.


Then of course, as Queen of Heaven, Mary will be above all of us.

[winsome]

And here are a few more you can look up yourself:

1 Corinthians 3:11-14

Luke 6:23

Revelation 22:12

Matthew 16:27

Matthew 25:20-23

Luke 19:15-19

2 Corinthians 9:6

Luke 6:22-23

[Catholica]

Further I'd add (if I may, winsome) that Mike's verse (as DaveW alluded to before) is taken completely out of context.  "God is no respecter of persons" means that God doesn't save someone because of their hereditary lineage.  This is in reference to the Jewish notion that God would only save Jews and not Gentiles.

Acts 10 (emphasis mine for the parts that Mike overlooked)
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39 "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.


In context, Peter has just received the vision of the sheet descending from heaven which is interpreted to be understood that all people, even the Gentiles, are to be allowed into the covenant.  So that is why Peter says "God is no respecter of persons".  He will save everyone who believes in him (v43) and fears him and does what is right (v35) regardless of whether they are Jewish or not.

[kensington]

Yes we all will receive crowns: 1 Corinthians 9:24–25, 2 Timothy 4:8 , 1 Peter 5:4, Revelation 2:10,

Yes we all will have robes of white: Revelation 19:8,

Why is there no verse to show Mary will be above us all in Heaven? 

Also, just because one might receive different rewards in Heaven does not mean that God loves them more or respects them more... 

If you have one child who makes all A's, and one who makes all C's... do you love one more or favor one more?  That would ridiculous.  God isn't like that.

[winsome]

Yes we all will receive crowns: 1 Corinthians 9:24–25, 2 Timothy 4:8 , 1 Peter 5:4, Revelation 2:10,

Different crowns
A crown of righteousness (2 Tim 4:8)
A crown of life (Jas 1:12; Rev 2:10)
A crown of glory (1Pet 5:4)
An Incorruptible crown (1Cor 9:25-27)
A Gold crown (Rev 4:4)

Mary gets a crown of 12 stars (Rev 12:1)

Yes we all will have robes of white: Revelation 19:8,

Arrayed in white lined is not necessarily robes - but even so only 14 more verses to try & explain away

Why is there no verse to show Mary will be above us all in Heaven? 

A queen always ranks above her subjects

Also, just because one might receive different rewards in Heaven does not mean that God loves them more or respects them more... 

If you have one child who makes all A's, and one who makes all C's... do you love one more or favor one more?  That would ridiculous.  God isn't like that.

Mclees point was not about how much God loves someone but how much one is recognised more than another.

To follow your analogy a parent might have promised (for example) an iPhone6 to their children if they got all A's but only a  Nokia pay-as-you-go if they got all Cs

[kensington]

Different crowns you say?  Oh...  but first you said all of us would not receive crowns at all.  Did you not?

White linen to clothe ourselves?  What do you suppose we will be wearing?  When you have nothing on, and you are given fine white linen, what do you do with it to clothe yourself?  Oh I know, you fashion a robe/dress around yourself.  You don't need to explain away 14 verses, one by one, when one explains them all. 

Still no verse to say Mary will be above all.  You cannot prove that the woman in Revelations is Mary... because it's not, it's Israel.  So far... there is no scripture reference to Mary at all in revelations. 

Yes, she will be included in with all the other saints.  But, none that says she is above anyone.  Not one.

What subjects?  There are no subjects of Mary.  Please provide a verse for that approach. 

[mclees8]

Thank you Paulus for recognizing Cory Tim Boom and I am sure there are many other Protestants whom we may never know, but the Lord does  and they will all be there amongst the worthy And I assure you Catholics will not receive any greater reward. There can be no room for human traits like favoritism,envy pride and jealousy. This is why I know that there will none recognized more over another.

[mclees8]

Did I mention yet the countless believers that gave their lives at the hands of wicked Emperors. Will any of them stand behind anyone before the Lord. The Lord gave me a poem one day and I never conceived a poem in my life, and have not been given one sense.

There' a grand chariot coming, and I know its coming for me
And it's taking me  to heaven where  my Lord I know I will see
In his hand is a crown is waiting , as I bow on bended knee
I will take that crown and lay it down
all to Him the glory be.

I have one more scripture to share.  It was Paul's last letter To Timothy in closing. 2nd Tim 4:6

For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

You speak of the apostles and here is Paul who was certainly revered right up there with Peter saying he fought  the good fight of faith and was now ready to be given for the Lord, and for Him would be a crown. Yet he then said not to him only but to all who love His appearing.
All who have fought that fight and are not ashamed will be given the same crown. Paul will not be honored more than any who have lived by the spirit of Christ. Where is your argument of unequal's

By the way most of your scriptures have been taken out of context and used to bolster your humanistic idealism and thinking. 

[kensington]

Yes, to ALL who love his appearing. 

[winsome]

 

Different crowns you say?  Oh...  but first you said all of us would not receive crowns at all.  Did you not?

No I did not.

Please pay attention ro what I actually say

I said "Do we all get to sit on thrones with crowns on our heads?" 

White linen to clothe ourselves?  What do you suppose we will be wearing?  When you have nothing on, and you are given fine white linen, what do you do with it to clothe yourself?  Oh I know, you fashion a robe/dress around yourself.  You don't need to explain away 14 verses, one by one, when one explains them all. 

Ah yes, I forgot the rule

If Protestants supply 15 verses then Catholics have to refute each one.

If Catholics supply 15 verses then a Protestant only has to supply some kind of answer to one and all the rest become null and void. 

Still no verse to say Mary will be above all.  You cannot prove that the woman in Revelations is Mary... because it's not, it's Israel.  So far... there is no scripture reference to Mary at all in revelations. 

Yes, she will be included in with all the other saints.  But, none that says she is above anyone.  Not one.   
What subjects?  There are no subjects of Mary.  Please provide a verse for that approach.

Mary is Queen of Heaven. John saw her in Rev 12:1.

Queens reign. That's what queens do. It's part of the definition of a queen unless they have been deposed and are in exile. Mary is not in exile. She is there in heaven as John describes.



Now where are your responses to the other 14 verses I posted - or are you conceding them?

[mclees8]

Different crowns you say?  Oh...  but first you said all of us would not receive crowns at all.  Did you not?

No I did not.

Please pay attention ro what I actually say

I said "Do we all get to sit on thrones with crowns on our heads?" 

White linen to clothe ourselves?  What do you suppose we will be wearing?  When you have nothing on, and you are given fine white linen, what do you do with it to clothe yourself?  Oh I know, you fashion a robe/dress around yourself.  You don't need to explain away 14 verses, one by one, when one explains them all. 

Ah yes, I forgot the rule

If Protestants supply 15 verses then Catholics have to refute each one.

If Catholics supply 15 verses then a Protestant only has to supply some kind of answer to one and all the rest become null and void. 

Still no verse to say Mary will be above all.  You cannot prove that the woman in Revelations is Mary... because it's not, it's Israel.  So far... there is no scripture reference to Mary at all in revelations. 

Yes, she will be included in with all the other saints.  But, none that says she is above anyone.  Not one.   
What subjects?  There are no subjects of Mary.  Please provide a verse for that approach.

Mary is Queen of Heaven. John saw her in Rev 12:1.

Queens reign. That's what queens do. It's part of the definition of a queen unless they have been deposed and are in exile. Mary is not in exile. She is there in heaven as John describes.



Now where are your responses to the other 14 verses I posted - or are you conceding them?

Rev 12 does not speak of the person Mary. The woman in Rev 12 represents Israel. and if you read the metaphoric language used in chapter 12 it becomes clear.  Here is a perfect example how you twist scripture for you own ideals and thinking.

[winsome]

Different crowns you say?  Oh...  but first you said all of us would not receive crowns at all.  Did you not?

No I did not.

Please pay attention ro what I actually say

I said "Do we all get to sit on thrones with crowns on our heads?" 

White linen to clothe ourselves?  What do you suppose we will be wearing?  When you have nothing on, and you are given fine white linen, what do you do with it to clothe yourself?  Oh I know, you fashion a robe/dress around yourself.  You don't need to explain away 14 verses, one by one, when one explains them all. 

Ah yes, I forgot the rule

If Protestants supply 15 verses then Catholics have to refute each one.

If Catholics supply 15 verses then a Protestant only has to supply some kind of answer to one and all the rest become null and void. 

Still no verse to say Mary will be above all.  You cannot prove that the woman in Revelations is Mary... because it's not, it's Israel.  So far... there is no scripture reference to Mary at all in revelations. 

Yes, she will be included in with all the other saints.  But, none that says she is above anyone.  Not one.   
What subjects?  There are no subjects of Mary.  Please provide a verse for that approach.

Mary is Queen of Heaven. John saw her in Rev 12:1.

Queens reign. That's what queens do. It's part of the definition of a queen unless they have been deposed and are in exile. Mary is not in exile. She is there in heaven as John describes.



Now where are your responses to the other 14 verses I posted - or are you conceding them?

Rev 12 does not speak of the person Mary. The woman in Rev 12 represents Israel. and if you read the metaphoric language used in chapter 12 it becomes clear.  Here is a perfect example how you twist scripture for you own ideals and thinking.

The woman in Rev 12 is Mary. She also represents Israel and the Church.

Such "fusion imagery" is common in the Bible, especially in apocalyptic literature.

For example in Rev 4:6-8 the four beasts around the throne are a fusion of the elements of the cherubim in Ezekial 10:1-14 and the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:1-6.

Like the cherubim in Ezekial they have faces of a man, an ox, a lion and an eagle, like the Seraphim they had six wings.

The elders around the throne are 24 (Rev 4:4) because they are a fusion of the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.

Polyvalent symbolism is also a feature of Revelation. For example the seven heads of the beast in Rev 17:3 represent seven hills and also seven kings (Rev 17:9)

It would not be surprising therefore if the woman in Rev 12 is a fusion and/or polyvalent symbolism with elements of Israel and the Church present. Primarily though the woman must be Mary, the mother of Jesus.

The woman is identified as giving birth to a son, "a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod"– reference to Psalm 2:9 & Rev 11:15. Moreover "Her child was caught up to God and his throne" so the child is clearly Jesus. Which makes the woman the mother of Jesus = Mary

[winsome]

Getting back to the topic I was reading today about the Cardinal Hume centre in London which is helping the homeless.

Joseph's story is just one of many we heard over Christmas at the Cardinal Hume Centre, which was founded in 1986 by the Cardinal in response to what he witnessed every day: homeless people bedding down for the night outside Westminster Cathedral and families spending yet another night in bed and breakfast accommodation, utterly unsuitable for their children's health and well-being. Much hard work has taken place since then and progress has been made in tackling, if not eradicating homelessness. Yet if Cardinal Hume were still alive today, I suggest he would be shocked and saddened to see a return to the same conditions.


Over the years, the centre has developed a wide range of on-site services on the premise that, as each human being is different and their needs are complex, so the response to need should be both to the uniqueness and the complexity. In addition to providing accommodation for homeless 16- to 21-year-olds, we concentrate on helping others, both families and individuals, to prevent them becoming homeless. Our services range from housing advice to employment support, from education and skills to family services. We do not provide solutions for people, but work with each person to find their own route forward.



http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2014/01/10/we-are-seeing-ever-more-people-driven-into-poverty/

[mclees8]

Different crowns you say?  Oh...  but first you said all of us would not receive crowns at all.  Did you not?

No I did not.

Please pay attention ro what I actually say

I said "Do we all get to sit on thrones with crowns on our heads?" 

White linen to clothe ourselves?  What do you suppose we will be wearing?  When you have nothing on, and you are given fine white linen, what do you do with it to clothe yourself?  Oh I know, you fashion a robe/dress around yourself.  You don't need to explain away 14 verses, one by one, when one explains them all. 

Ah yes, I forgot the rule

If Protestants supply 15 verses then Catholics have to refute each one.

If Catholics supply 15 verses then a Protestant only has to supply some kind of answer to one and all the rest become null and void. 

Still no verse to say Mary will be above all.  You cannot prove that the woman in Revelations is Mary... because it's not, it's Israel.  So far... there is no scripture reference to Mary at all in revelations. 

Yes, she will be included in with all the other saints.  But, none that says she is above anyone.  Not one.   
What subjects?  There are no subjects of Mary.  Please provide a verse for that approach.

Mary is Queen of Heaven. John saw her in Rev 12:1.

Queens reign. That's what queens do. It's part of the definition of a queen unless they have been deposed and are in exile. Mary is not in exile. She is there in heaven as John describes.



Now where are your responses to the other 14 verses I posted - or are you conceding them?

Rev 12 does not speak of the person Mary. The woman in Rev 12 represents Israel. and if you read the metaphoric language used in chapter 12 it becomes clear.  Here is a perfect example how you twist scripture for you own ideals and thinking.

I disagree The book of Revelation 12 Is prophetic. Mary surely did give birth to Jesus, but this she has passed on in heaven. Israel still lives and active today. Ch !2 does not speak of two different women, but speaks of one women. We see her in verse 6

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Mary did not and does not flee into the wilderness to be hid by God a thousand two hundred and three score days which according to my study Bible is exactly 1/2 the length of the tribulation period. God hides them form the persecution of the antichrist.  Israel brought forth the man child and is hated of the antichrist Government so God protects them.

[winsome]

Different crowns you say?  Oh...  but first you said all of us would not receive crowns at all.  Did you not?

No I did not.

Please pay attention ro what I actually say

I said "Do we all get to sit on thrones with crowns on our heads?" 

White linen to clothe ourselves?  What do you suppose we will be wearing?  When you have nothing on, and you are given fine white linen, what do you do with it to clothe yourself?  Oh I know, you fashion a robe/dress around yourself.  You don't need to explain away 14 verses, one by one, when one explains them all. 

Ah yes, I forgot the rule

If Protestants supply 15 verses then Catholics have to refute each one.

If Catholics supply 15 verses then a Protestant only has to supply some kind of answer to one and all the rest become null and void. 

Still no verse to say Mary will be above all.  You cannot prove that the woman in Revelations is Mary... because it's not, it's Israel.  So far... there is no scripture reference to Mary at all in revelations. 

Yes, she will be included in with all the other saints.  But, none that says she is above anyone.  Not one.   
What subjects?  There are no subjects of Mary.  Please provide a verse for that approach.

Mary is Queen of Heaven. John saw her in Rev 12:1.

Queens reign. That's what queens do. It's part of the definition of a queen unless they have been deposed and are in exile. Mary is not in exile. She is there in heaven as John describes.



Now where are your responses to the other 14 verses I posted - or are you conceding them?

Rev 12 does not speak of the person Mary. The woman in Rev 12 represents Israel. and if you read the metaphoric language used in chapter 12 it becomes clear.  Here is a perfect example how you twist scripture for you own ideals and thinking.

I disagree The book of Revelation 12 Is prophetic. Mary surely did give birth to Jesus, but this she has passed on in heaven. Israel still lives and active today. Ch !2 does not speak of two different women, but speaks of one women. We see her in verse 6

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Mary did not and does not flee into the wilderness to be hid by God a thousand two hundred and three score days which according to my study Bible is exactly 1/2 the length of the tribulation period. God hides them form the persecution of the antichrist.  Israel brought forth the man child and is hated of the antichrist Government so God protects them.

As I said the woman is fusion imagery and/or polyvalent imagery. You have not replied to that.

As such the woman is Mary but also represents Israel and the Church.

There are three "characters" in this story
One is Satan - a real person
One is Jesus - a real person
So it makes sense that the third - the woman - is real person and not just a group.

Her fleeing into the desert is her representing the Church and symbolises God protecting his Church from Satan.

Another point is that just as as Eve was the "mother of all the living" we have the New Eve (Mary) described as the mother of "those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus." (Rev 12:17)

Mary is our spiritual mother, given to us by Jesus (John 19:27)

[Amo]

The woman in Rev 12 is Mary. She also represents Israel and the Church.

A women of biblical prophecy is symbolic of Israel or the church, not Mary or any other individual. You can produce nothing from scripture to that effect.

Such "fusion imagery" is common in the Bible, especially in apocalyptic literature.

Please do show us even one example of the prophetic symbolism of a woman applied to represent one individual woman. You cannot, because it does not ever.

For example in Rev 4:6-8 the four beasts around the throne are a fusion of the elements of the cherubim in Ezekial 10:1-14 and the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:1-6.

Like the cherubim in Ezekial they have faces of a man, an ox, a lion and an eagle, like the Seraphim they had six wings.

They are no fusion, nor are they necessarily even symbolic. They are simply descriptions of what was seen by separate prophets pertaining to the throne of God. Both trying to explain and describe things beyond human imagination. You forgot the most vivid description of God's throne in Ezekial 1.

The elders around the throne are 24 (Rev 4:4) because they are a fusion of the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.

Again, no scriptural support for the above. We do not know who the 24 elders are.

Polyvalent symbolism is also a feature of Revelation. For example the seven heads of the beast in Rev 17:3 represent seven hills and also seven kings (Rev 17:9)

Yes, this we know because the scriptures say so. Unlike the rest of what you have suggested.

It would not be surprising therefore if the woman in Rev 12 is a fusion and/or polyvalent symbolism with elements of Israel and the Church present. Primarily though the woman must be Mary, the mother of Jesus.

There is no surprise about it. The scriptures use a women as a symbol of both many times over. They never use the symbol of a women to prophetically represent another women. Never!

The woman is identified as giving birth to a son, "a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod"– reference to Psalm 2:9 & Rev 11:15. Moreover "Her child was caught up to God and his throne" so the child is clearly Jesus. Which makes the woman the mother of Jesus = Mary

If the woman of Rev. 12 is Mary, then how does one explain all of the things said about her in this chapter? What was the wilderness that she fled to? What was the period of 1260 days, and the time, times, and a half of a time, that she was nourished in the wilderness? What was the flood of water that was cast out of the serpents mouth after her? How did the earth help Mary? These things alone, make it obvious, that Rev. 12 is not talking about Mary.

Verse 17 says that the remnant of her seed keep the commandments of God. This cannot be referring to the Catholic Church, for they do not keep the commandments of God. They have changed the fourth, and break the second routinely.

A woman in prophecy is a church.  A pure woman, is God's church, and a whore, or harlot is an apostate church. God chose the nation of Israel to maintain a knowledge of Him in this world, until His own Son would come into the world to reveal the Father. The father of the nation of Israel, was Abraham. It was through his seed, that the entire world would be blessed. It was this old covenant church, or nation of God that brought forth the man child spoken of in Rev. 12. At which time, the new covenant nation, or church of God began to be established. This woman, that is the new covenant church of God, is what the prophecies of Rev. 12 are referring to, not Mary.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:4 I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The prophecies of Rev. 12 are referring to the conflict between the new covenant church, and the devils attempts to destroy the man child, Christ, and His followers after Him. If the woman of Rev. 12:1 is Mary, then what sense can anyone make of the rest of the things said about this woman in the remainder of the Chapter? On the other hand, if the woman of Rev. 12:1 is the church, which it is, then one can make sense of the rest of the prophecy concerning this woman in chap. 12.

[Amo]

As I said the woman is fusion imagery and/or polyvalent imagery. You have not replied to that.

As such the woman is Mary but also represents Israel and the Church.

There are three "characters" in this story
One is Satan - a real person
One is Jesus - a real person
So it makes sense that the third - the woman - is real person and not just a group.

Her fleeing into the desert is her representing the Church and symbolises God protecting his Church from Satan.

Another point is that just as as Eve was the "mother of all the living" we have the New Eve (Mary) described as the mother of "those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus." (Rev 12:17)

Mary is our spiritual mother, given to us by Jesus (John 19:27)

The bible says nothing about Mary being the mother of humanity. This is more antichrist teaching by taking truths in relation to Christ and humanity and attributing them to another. Christ was the second Adam and head of humanity, giving humanity another chance through Himself. Now you blasphemously attribute the same to Mary as the mother of humanity. There is no end to the craftiness of your church in developing deception.

1 Cor 15:19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 ¶  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30  And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32  If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33  Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 35 ¶  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Show us from scripture where Mary is the second Eve and mother of humanity. Stop attributing that which Christ accomplished and accomplishes to Mary. It is blasphemy.

[mclees8]

The woman in Rev 12 is Mary. She also represents Israel and the Church.

A women of biblical prophecy is symbolic of Israel or the church, not Mary or any other individual. You can produce nothing from scripture to that effect.

Such "fusion imagery" is common in the Bible, especially in apocalyptic literature.

Please do show us even one example of the prophetic symbolism of a woman applied to represent one individual woman. You cannot, because it does not ever.

For example in Rev 4:6-8 the four beasts around the throne are a fusion of the elements of the cherubim in Ezekial 10:1-14 and the Seraphim in Isaiah 6:1-6.

Like the cherubim in Ezekial they have faces of a man, an ox, a lion and an eagle, like the Seraphim they had six wings.

They are no fusion, nor are they necessarily even symbolic. They are simply descriptions of what was seen by separate prophets pertaining to the throne of God. Both trying to explain and describe things beyond human imagination. You forgot the most vivid description of God's throne in Ezekial 1.

The elders around the throne are 24 (Rev 4:4) because they are a fusion of the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles.

Again, no scriptural support for the above. We do not know who the 24 elders are.

Polyvalent symbolism is also a feature of Revelation. For example the seven heads of the beast in Rev 17:3 represent seven hills and also seven kings (Rev 17:9)

Yes, this we know because the scriptures say so. Unlike the rest of what you have suggested.

It would not be surprising therefore if the woman in Rev 12 is a fusion and/or polyvalent symbolism with elements of Israel and the Church present. Primarily though the woman must be Mary, the mother of Jesus.

There is no surprise about it. The scriptures use a women as a symbol of both many times over. They never use the symbol of a women to prophetically represent another women. Never!

The woman is identified as giving birth to a son, "a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod"– reference to Psalm 2:9 & Rev 11:15. Moreover "Her child was caught up to God and his throne" so the child is clearly Jesus. Which makes the woman the mother of Jesus = Mary

If the woman of Rev. 12 is Mary, then how does one explain all of the things said about her in this chapter? What was the wilderness that she fled to? What was the period of 1260 days, and the time, times, and a half of a time, that she was nourished in the wilderness? What was the flood of water that was cast out of the serpents mouth after her? How did the earth help Mary? These things alone, make it obvious, that Rev. 12 is not talking about Mary.

Verse 17 says that the remnant of her seed keep the commandments of God. This cannot be referring to the Catholic Church, for they do not keep the commandments of God. They have changed the fourth, and break the second routinely.

A woman in prophecy is a church.  A pure woman, is God's church, and a whore, or harlot is an apostate church. God chose the nation of Israel to maintain a knowledge of Him in this world, until His own Son would come into the world to reveal the Father. The father of the nation of Israel, was Abraham. It was through his seed, that the entire world would be blessed. It was this old covenant church, or nation of God that brought forth the man child spoken of in Rev. 12. At which time, the new covenant nation, or church of God began to be established. This woman, that is the new covenant church of God, is what the prophecies of Rev. 12 are referring to, not Mary.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:4 I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The prophecies of Rev. 12 are referring to the conflict between the new covenant church, and the devils attempts to destroy the man child, Christ, and His followers after Him. If the woman of Rev. 12:1 is Mary, then what sense can anyone make of the rest of the things said about this woman in the remainder of the Chapter? On the other hand, if the woman of Rev. 12:1 is the church, which it is, then one can make sense of the rest of the prophecy concerning this woman in chap. 12.

again AMO you are articulate. I once new some SDA's and they impressed me to know more about Revelation and Daniel. I marveled at how SDa"s New their Home work. I still do.

God bless AMO 

[Amo]

again AMO you are articulate. I once new some SDA's and they impressed me to know more about Revelation and Daniel. I marveled at how SDa"s New their Home work. I still do.

God bless AMO

Thanks for the compliment mclees8, I'm never very sure how to react to them. I'm glad the SDA's you have met knew their bibles well. May we all do our homework, and come to know our bibles and therefore our God also more and more each day.

[kensington]

John's record of the appearance of a great sign in Heaven vs 1 points to a reality on earth.  He see's a mysterious, pregnant woman clothed with the sun, wearing a crown of 12 stars and having the moon under her feet.  She is in agony of childbirth, nearly ready to deliver, while a great read dragon is waiting to devour her child when born. vs. 2-4.  She safely delivers a male child who is immediately caught up to be with God. The woman flees to a place prepared for her by God for 1,260 days.

The only other place in the word where this symbol appears is in relation to Israel. (Genesis 37:9) 

And actually the fact is that Israel is the ONLY group of God's people in the word that is referred to as married woman. The church is referred to as a virgin, (II Corinthians 11:2) Never as an expectant mother.  Israel is also mentioned in the Old Testament as a woman in travail (Isaish 26:7 and 66:7; Micah 4:10, 5:3)

2+2=4...  the woman is Israel.  Not Mary, and not the church.

(Revelation 12: 17)  The dragon failed to destroy the male child and the woman, he will seek to destroy the rest of her "Offspring".  We all know that Satan hates Israel because she is chosen by God and a vital part of His overall purpose for eternity.  The woman (Israel) will flee to her prepared place (Matthew 24:16).  But, there will be those of the remnant of faithful Israel who will not be able to flee to the prepared place. The scattered remnant is the "Other offspring", and the dragon will attempt to destroy them completely.

[Amo]

And actually the fact is that Israel is the ONLY group of God's people in the word that is referred to as married woman. The church is referred to as a virgin, (II Corinthians 11:2) Never as an expectant mother.  Israel is also mentioned in the Old Testament as a woman in travail (Isaish 26:7 and 66:7; Micah 4:10, 5:3)

The symbolism is used in both the old and new covenants in relation to Israel and the Church.

Eph 5:22  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29  For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

2Cor 11:1 ¶  Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[skeeter]

Then of course, as Queen of Heaven, Mary will be above all of us.

what does the Bible say about the queen of heaven?

[winsome]

 

John's record of the appearance of a great sign in Heaven vs 1 points to a reality on earth.  He see's a mysterious, pregnant woman clothed with the sun, wearing a crown of 12 stars and having the moon under her feet.  She is in agony of childbirth, nearly ready to deliver, while a great read dragon is waiting to devour her child when born. vs. 2-4.  She safely delivers a male child who is immediately caught up to be with God. The woman flees to a place prepared for her by God for 1,260 days.

The only other place in the word where this symbol appears is in relation to Israel. (Genesis 37:9) 

And actually the fact is that Israel is the ONLY group of God's people in the word that is referred to as married woman. The church is referred to as a virgin, (II Corinthians 11:2) Never as an expectant mother.  Israel is also mentioned in the Old Testament as a woman in travail (Isaish 26:7 and 66:7; Micah 4:10, 5:3)

2+2=4...  the woman is Israel.  Not Mary, and not the church.

(Revelation 12: 17)  The dragon failed to destroy the male child and the woman, he will seek to destroy the rest of her "Offspring".  We all know that Satan hates Israel because she is chosen by God and a vital part of His overall purpose for eternity.  The woman (Israel) will flee to her prepared place (Matthew 24:16).  But, there will be those of the remnant of faithful Israel who will not be able to flee to the prepared place. The scattered remnant is the "Other offspring", and the dragon will attempt to destroy them completely.

You can make many things out of Revelation but one thing is very clear. The male child that rules with a rod of iron and gets taken up to God is Jesus.

This is clear from the book itself where it says (Rev 19:15) From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron.

Also Psalm 2:9 - You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The woman who gave birth to that male child is Mary.

John, in referring to her as "woman" is an allusion to Genesis where before being named she is the referred to as "woman", and it is through this woman that the saviour, the Messiah will come.

In John's gospel Mary is the "woman" at the cross when Jesus gives her to us as our mother.

In John's gospel Mary is the "woman" at Cana who entreats Jesus to perform his first miracle.

The woman Rev 12 is very clearly Mary, but she also symbolises Israel. She is the daughter of Zion who brings forth her child is suffering.

You say "John's record of the appearance of a great sign in Heaven vs 1 points to a reality on earth."

This is how Dr. Edward Sri comments on this:
In John 19, we see from an earthly perspective what happens on Calvary: Jesus is crucified by the Romans while His mother and the beloved disciple stand at the foot of the Cross. Revelation 12 portrays the same scene, but from a heavenly perspective, so we can see with the eyes of angels what really happens on Good Friday: Calvary is the climactic cosmic showdown between God and the devil, and the real force behind Christ's crucifixion is not the Romans, but Satan.

While John 19 presents soldiers nailing Jesus to a cross, Revelation 12 shows us the dragon waiting to devour the male child and fiercely battling the forces of heaven (Rev. 12:4–5, 7) and the son emerging victorious, enthroned in heaven, while the devil is defeated and cast down (12:5–9).
(Decoding the woman of the Apocalypse)

He then notes 4 key parallels between these two scenes. I won't quote the whole comparison just a brief summary:
1. the "woman" in both scenes is the mother of the Messiah

2. In both scenes the woman suffers birth pangs. In John 19 implicitly bearing in mind what Jesus said earlier in John 16:20-21

3. Satan is defeated

4. Twofold maternity – both the women are described as the mother of Jesus and of the mother of Christ's faithful followers.

[kensington]

Amo, in your example, it is not symbolism.  Men are being told to love their wives as Christ loves the church...  there is no symbolism there, it's a flat out admonishment to husbands and wives with Christ as the example.

And the second reference, the church is as a "Virgin"....  Like I said. 

But the church is not used as a married woman in these two nor as an expectant woman.

The image in Revelation 12 is Israel.  The twelve stars are the tribes of Israel, but Mary had nothing to do with them.  It is Israel.  She flees to a place carved out for her(Israel) in the Rock,  a place called Petra where God will preserve her and provide for her right under the nose of Satan and those who serve him.  Mary has already gone to Heaven and this is a scene John is seeing on earth.  Mary won't be there... 

Mary is not the queen and she is not the mother of Israel.  This passage is speaking about God preserving Israel in those days to come on earth when Satan will hunt them down openly.  "SHE" is Israel. 

Winsome...  you also can make anything you want up about Revelation... but you can't change the fact that Mary is not on earth, and won't be on earth when this takes place, and she has no need for a "Place carved out of the Rock"...   to be hidden from Him.  She is already in Heaven, by your own teaching.  God isn't going to send her back, this is a Prophecy of the future, not anything about the past. 

She is NOT the mother of the Jews, and this passage is about them.  Their part and destiny in the word of God. The church will also already be gone when this happens.  We won't be here...  So it can't be about us either.

[Amo]

Amo, in your example, it is not symbolism.  Men are being told to love their wives as Christ loves the church...  there is no symbolism there, it's a flat out admonishment to husbands and wives with Christ as the example.

Ignoring details, doesn't make them go away. The example is Christ and the church, that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church, and wives should submit to their husbands as the church should submit to Christ. If you do not see this, it is simply because you do not wish to.

Eph 5:22  Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29  For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

And the second reference, the church is as a "Virgin"....  Like I said.

2Cor 11:2  For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

But the church is not used as a married woman in these two nor as an expectant woman.

Yes the church is symbolized as married to Christ in the first example. It was not the church that brought forth Christ, but Israel. After He was brought forth He established the church, the new covenant Israel of God. All biblical prophecy of the NT is in relation to the church, the true Israel of God. Israel according to the Spirit, not the flesh. The Jews who accepted Christ, and those gentiles who heeded the call of the Apostles, all themselves Jews were and are the Israel of God. Those who rejected Christ had the kingdom taken away from them.

Mt 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44  And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45  And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Israel was referred to as a virgin, a wife, and a bride also. These symbolic attributes have been past on to the church as well as many others. 

The Church is now the Israel of God.  Thus has she been given the attributes of the same.

Exod 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1 Pet 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Israel was said to be a peculiar people of God, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.  The Church of Christ is given all the same attributes.

Hosea 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. 10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Though many of Israel would not be God's people, yet the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the sea.  This would be accomplished when those who were not called God's people, should be called the sons of the living God.  The Church is composed of those who were not the people of God, who became the people of God. They are the children of promise that are counted for the seed, which are the children of God. They are no longer strangers, but fellow citizens with the saints and of the very household of God.

Deut 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

1 Pet 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

As Israel was called to be a holy people unto God, so the Church is called to be a holy people unto God.

Deut 4:20 But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

AS Israel were a people of inheritance to God, so the Church are a people of inheritance to God.

Jer 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

As the Lord was the shepherd of Israel, so the Lord is the shepherd of the Church.

Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

As Israel was saved with everlasting salvation, so the Church is saved with eternal salvation.

Lev 26:11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you. 12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Exod 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary;that I may dwell among them.

Exod 29:44 And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.
45 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will be their God.
46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

2 Cor 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

As God placed His temple in the midst of Israel, that He might dwell among them, so Christ became the living temple and dwelt among us.  The Church is connected to God through His Son Jesus Christ in a way far superior to that capable of being so during the old covenant dispensation. God became one of us, and therefore the living temple of God in human flesh, of which the Church is the body.  Now all who are in Christ are truly literal flesh and blood children of God.

Isa 54: 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hosea 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Jer 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

As God was an husband to the nation of Israel, so now is the Church married to God in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Again it is in a far superior way that the Church is betrothed to God in Christ. As a man and a woman become one flesh in marriage, so humanity and God became one flesh in and through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who literally became one with our human flesh in order to live the life we could not live, and die the death we could not die. 

Thus all who are in Christ are the literal flesh and blood children of God.  These things the old covenant nation of Israel only pointed to, have been accomplished upon us, the new covenant Israel of God.  PRAISE GOD'S PURE, RIGHTEOUS, HOLY, UNDEFILED, AND AWESOME NAME IN AND THROUGH HIS SON JESUS CHRIST FOR OUR UNDESERVED SALVATION AND EXALTATION AS THE LITERAL SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD.

Now all who are in Christ are the Israel of God, whether Jew or Gentile.  Now all those who reject the same are none of His, and have no part of the kingdom of God or the gospel of the same, whether Jew or Gentile.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[winsome]

Back to the topic

Pope Having Showers Built in Vatican for Rome's Homeless

10 Parishes Asked to Participate in Initiative

The Vatican announced on Thursday that the Holy Father commissioned three showers to be built for use by the homeless in the area under the colonnades of St. Peter's Square.

Set to open Nov. 17, the showers will be installed in an existing lavatory block used by tourists and pilgrims.

An experience of the Pope's almoner, Archbishop Konrad Krajewski, led to the initiative: Archbishop Krajewski met a 50-year-old homeless man, named Franco from Sardinia, on the streets of Rome. Since it was the man's birthday, the archbishop offered to buy him dinner, but the man declined because of his smelling badly.

In spite of that, Archbishop Krajewski still wished to take the homeless man out for dinner at a Chinese restaurant.

During the meal, the man explained to the archbishop that although the homeless people in Rome could manage to find something to eat, what they really needed was a place to wash.

When the archbishop presented to Pope Francis the idea of installing showers in the Vatican, he immediately gave his blessing.

Archbishop Krajewski has already asked another 10 parishes in Rome to build showers for use by the homeless, in addition to the three that will be built in the Vatican.

Money donated by the Pope's charity will be used to pay for the facilities.

There are an estimated 8,000 homeless people living on the streets of Rome, according to the Catholic charity Sant'Egidio

Source – zenith.org

[winsome]

 Today is the feast day of Saint Elizabeth of Hungary.

Here is an extract from a letter of Conrad of Marburg, Elizabeth's Spiritual Director

From this time onward Elizabeth's goodness greatly increased. She was a lifelong friend of the poor and gave herself entirely to relieving the hungry. She ordered that one of her castles should be converted into a hospital in which she gathered many of the weak and feeble. She generously gave alms to all who were in need, not only in that place but in all the territories of her husband's empire. She spent all her own revenue from her husband's four principalities, and finally she sold her luxurious' possessions and rich clothes for the sake of the poor.

Twice a day, in the morning and in the evening, Elizabeth went to visit the sick. She personally cared for those who were particularly repulsive; to some she gave food, to others clothing; some she carried on her own shoulders, and performed many other kindly services. Her husband, of happy memory, gladly approved of these charitable works. Finally, when her husband died, she sought the highest perfection; filled with tears, she implored me to let her beg for alms from door to door.

Apart from those active good works, I declare before God that I have seldom seen a more contemplative woman. When she was coming from private prayer, some religious men and women often saw her face shining marvellously and light coming from her eyes like the rays of the sun.

Before her death I heard her confession. When I asked what should be done about her goods and possessions, she replied that anything which seemed to be hers belonged to the poor. She asked me to distribute everything except one worn out dress in which she wished to be buried.

[mclees8]

Today is the feast day of Saint Elizabeth of Hungary.

Here is an extract from a letter of Conrad of Marburg, Elizabeth's Spiritual Director

From this time onward Elizabeth's goodness greatly increased. She was a lifelong friend of the poor and gave herself entirely to relieving the hungry. She ordered that one of her castles should be converted into a hospital in which she gathered many of the weak and feeble. She generously gave alms to all who were in need, not only in that place but in all the territories of her husband's empire. She spent all her own revenue from her husband's four principalities, and finally she sold her luxurious' possessions and rich clothes for the sake of the poor.

Twice a day, in the morning and in the evening, Elizabeth went to visit the sick. She personally cared for those who were particularly repulsive; to some she gave food, to others clothing; some she carried on her own shoulders, and performed many other kindly services. Her husband, of happy memory, gladly approved of these charitable works. Finally, when her husband died, she sought the highest perfection; filled with tears, she implored me to let her beg for alms from door to door.

Apart from those active good works, I declare before God that I have seldom seen a more contemplative woman. When she was coming from private prayer, some religious men and women often saw her face shining marvellously and light coming from her eyes like the rays of the sun.

Before her death I heard her confession. When I asked what should be done about her goods and possessions, she replied that anything which seemed to be hers belonged to the poor. She asked me to distribute everything except one worn out dress in which she wished to be buried.

This is a person who reflects the love and selflessness of Christ.  But where is the witness for Christ.

The heading read  Today is the feast day of Saint Elizabeth of Hungary    . Could this easily have been    said Elizabeth of Hungary who's life exemplifies the love and compassion of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Is it Not Jesus who was our first example of selflessness. Do we do good for as examples' for the established church or is it the spirit of Christ working in us. Why do we only focus on the works of a person without glorifying Christ who's spirit is in us to do these things

If I have done any good thing let it not be that I did it but  because Christ has changed my nature so that I need no recognition for anything I have done. My reward is not of this world but in heaven.

[winsome]

Today is the feast day of Saint Elizabeth of Hungary.

Here is an extract from a letter of Conrad of Marburg, Elizabeth's Spiritual Director

From this time onward Elizabeth's goodness greatly increased. She was a lifelong friend of the poor and gave herself entirely to relieving the hungry. She ordered that one of her castles should be converted into a hospital in which she gathered many of the weak and feeble. She generously gave alms to all who were in need, not only in that place but in all the territories of her husband's empire. She spent all her own revenue from her husband's four principalities, and finally she sold her luxurious' possessions and rich clothes for the sake of the poor.

Twice a day, in the morning and in the evening, Elizabeth went to visit the sick. She personally cared for those who were particularly repulsive; to some she gave food, to others clothing; some she carried on her own shoulders, and performed many other kindly services. Her husband, of happy memory, gladly approved of these charitable works. Finally, when her husband died, she sought the highest perfection; filled with tears, she implored me to let her beg for alms from door to door.

Apart from those active good works, I declare before God that I have seldom seen a more contemplative woman. When she was coming from private prayer, some religious men and women often saw her face shining marvellously and light coming from her eyes like the rays of the sun.

Before her death I heard her confession. When I asked what should be done about her goods and possessions, she replied that anything which seemed to be hers belonged to the poor. She asked me to distribute everything except one worn out dress in which she wished to be buried.

This is a person who reflects the love and selflessness of Christ.  But where is the witness for Christ.

The heading read  Today is the feast day of Saint Elizabeth of Hungary    . Could this easily have been    said Elizabeth of Hungary who's life exemplifies the love and compassion of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Is it Not Jesus who was our first example of selflessness. Do we do good for as examples' for the established church or is it the spirit of Christ working in us. Why do we only focus on the works of a person without glorifying Christ who's spirit is in us to do these things

If I have done any good thing let it not be that I did it but  because Christ has changed my nature so that I need no recognition for anything I have done. My reward is not of this world but in heaven.

Even in the midst of goodness you would find something to gripe about.

"She asked me to distribute everything except one worn out dress in which she wished to be buried"

Not a sumptous robe in sight but still you find something ro complain of.

Do you never tire of such negativity? I do of hearing it.

Next we will have Amo coming in with 30 links to sites knocking the Pope of the time, or Jesuits.

You people make me sick!

[kensington]

He is right really.  We are supposed to brag about Christ and all our goodness being due to Him and for Him...  not of ourselves because we are saintly. 

Why did her goodness increase?  Surely not because she was just good on her own.  But, if it was because she sought to mirror Christ, let it say so.

Why did she seek the highest perfection?  To serve Christ better or to be more like Christ?

Why did her eyes shine as the light of the sun?  Why wasn't God given the glory for her light, or why not say it was the light of Jesus in her that shone through.

Did she do all of that due to her love for Christ, or did she just do all of that?  Mclees' makes a good point.  According to the word.

I Corinthians 3:11-15 "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, [d]precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."