Pilgrims, Indians, Thanksgiving and Beer??

[Jd34]

I first learned of Thanksgiving in the third grade. The teacher told us all about the Pigrims comming over on the Mayflower, (and on the other three ships that i dont remember)landing at Plymoth Rock and meeting Indians. And how the natives helped them survive by showing them how to do things...and they worked together and had a great feast which came known to be Thanksgiving feast.

But what  my teacher left out was things like:

The Pilgrims stopped because they were running out of Beer!
The first Indian they met spoke English and when asked if had any beer, he said Yes!
Indians showed them how to make beer from their resources and
When the Pilgrims began building their settlement, they prioritized. The first building? You guessed it: a brewery.

Beer was much safer to drink than water. People always like to add how the beer had a low alcohol content (about in the same way that some like to say Jesus first miracle of turning water into wine was non alcholic-lol). Beer is a fermented beverage and contains alcohol- enough said about that.

I bet the beer was flowing and the Pilgrims and Indians had one bash of a Thanksgiving.


-

[JohnDB]

That would be a total mischaracterization of the first Thankgiving holidays.

The first settlers came to preach Christ to the natives...aka pilgrims...aka missionaries.
The first several years killed many of them due to starvation and disease.
Then in desperation their leader divided up the cleared land and the idea of a utopian society of missionaries was abandoned. (Nobody would work hard to see to the needs of others)

Then the missionaries really did work their land hard.  They weeded and watered and fertilized as they needed to for real this time without excuse.

The results were vastly different and there was so much surplus they invited the indigenous peoples for a free meal. And finally began to do as they originally intended.   Sure there were some things like fermented cider and beer and even liquors.  (A way of saving the extra grain's calories without losing the grain to rot)

Sure the missionaries seen how the Indians used fish to fertilize the crops...they weren't fools.  But the real catalyst was being given land and told that no longer would they live communally.   They would live or starve by their own work.

Read real history.

[JohnDB]

And one little addendum.

All of this was going on in North America while in Central and South America ships were heading back to Portugal and Spain loaded with rum, tobacco,  cotton, molasses and sugar.  In fact they had cathedrals under construction while the first log cabins were huddled in.

[Jd34]

 You mean the pilgrims didnt drink beer and did not leave England in search for religious freedom? Have I been lied to?

Ive been  taught that they believed the Anglican church was beyond "purifying" (a reference to Puritans who wanted to cleanse the Anglican church of all remaining Catholic influences), and sought to create their own branch of Christianity. They were persecuted and went to Holland. After they were unable to live successfully in Holland, they went the New World and landed on Plymouth Rock. Met natives there and had a Thanksgiving party.

All lies???

These were real people during hard times with survival being their number one priority. Beer was huge factor  for keeping them healthy.

[JohnDB]

You mean the pilgrims didnt drink beer and did not leave England in search for religious freedom? Have I been lied to?

Ive been  taught that they believed the Anglican church was beyond "purifying" (a reference to Puritans who wanted to cleanse the Anglican church of all remaining Catholic influences), and sought to create their own branch of Christianity. They were persecuted and went to Holland. After they were unable to live successfully in Holland, they went the New World and landed on Plymouth Rock. Met natives there and had a Thanksgiving party.

All lies???

These were real people during hard times with survival being their number one priority. Beer was huge factor  for keeping them healthy.

Yes, you were lied to and the truth obfuscated.


The truth is what I have related to you.
Yes, they were persecuted in Europe...but everyone in Europe except for the ruling elite (and those who agreed with them) were persecuted.

Europe was in the midst of a "I am more tough on sin and bad theology than you are" contest. And so everyone was being persecuted. From the Anabaptists to the Church of England. All those involved in medical sciences and other sciences were persecuted in one form or another. But to say that they were escaping is actually a stretching of the truth. They could always find refuge in another area if they wished.


these missionaries heard about the indigenous people of North America and decided that they needed evangelizing. (South America and Central America already were being colonized, evangelized, and exploited of their natural resources)


Fermented and distilled beverages were a means of saving the calories of foods without having them spoil. Much like cheese is a way to preserve the nutritional value of milk if you cannot consume it all when produced.


When it was offered to them the opportunity to colonize North America and granted a great deal on a sailing ship (they had to personally donate a lot of money in order to get it seaworthy as well as take up collections and donations from others) they decided to head out for these unchurched peoples.


Beer was a minor and only came about after a few years of productive years of grain production.




The truth has been withheld from you in many ways.
Why not go and research this out for yourself...don't take my word for it. Go and read the journals and diaries of those involved.
It isn't like the material is secret. But most are lazy and read whatever tabloid history that gets their attention.


The next thing you will be trying to tell us is that George Washington wasn't the first president and that this other guy was who presided over the articles of confederation was the first president.


Or that Adoniram Judson was actually the first missionary from America instead of George Lyle.

[Jd34]

Beer was a minor and only came about after a few years of productive years of grain production.

I think YOU need to research this a little closer. The Mayflower was running low on beer and this was one reason for them stopping.

People drank beer because it was boiled and much safer than water. Beer was plentiful on the Mayflower and it was much more desirable to drink than water. But supplies began to run  low and decisions had to be made.

Beer was not a minor thing but instead a major player in the health of the pigrams. It was the natives who showed them how to ferment using corn once they found themselves on foreign soil.   They loved their beer.

"For we could not now take time for further search our victuals being pretty much spent especially our beer." _ From the log of the Mayflower.


Anyway, today being Thanksgiven got me to thinking about it.. All I know for sure is that people like turning history into whatever they want it to be. Don't believe everything you read- it goes both ways. The study of human behavior should open your eyes more than any book. 

[Nevertheless]

Jd34, why are you so hung up on beer? What's the big deal?

[Jd34]

Jd34, why are you so hung up on beer? What's the big deal?

There is no big deal. Just the facts. One of the very first premises that I learned when I dove into the Bible is how it teaches us how things are not always as the seem to be or how you may like them to be.   

Some things  are taboo in alot of Christians eyes and alcohol is one of them. The Bible speaks favorable of alcohol but warns against drunkeness.. So in the context of the Puritans drinking beer- many Christians so much like to down play it but I think living and being around people tells us what happens when many people get together and consume alcohol during celebrations and such.


Anyway, like I said, its Thanksgiving and the subject matter crossed my mind. That's all.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

The Mayflower was running low on beer and this was one reason for them stopping.

It was the natives who showed them how to ferment using corn once they found themselves on foreign soil. 

I have a logic problem here.

The reason for them stopping was "low on beer,"
BUT
The natives were the ones who taught them to make it?

Unless I missed something, they didn't meet the natives until after they stopped...

(Also, fermented corn makes whiskey, not beer, I believe)

[JohnDB]

Malt, barley,  hops, and sometimes oats or corn or wheat is used to make beer.

But primarily its malt, barley and flavored with hops.

And the lable "beer" is very loosely applied to many different fermented grain beverages.
Some alcoholic and some not.

Things like mead (fermented honey beverages) and "hard cider" (fermented apples or fruit) were definitely drank in moderation.

[Jd34]

The reason for them stopping was "low on beer,"
BUT
The natives were the ones who taught them to make it?

Unless I missed something, they didn't meet the natives until after they stopped...

The Puritians had their own beer and wine on the Mayflower (and was running low). The natives only showed them how to make it from corn.

On the Mayflower, the water was going bad and even the children had to drink the beer. Sooner or later they were going to have to stop.. All supplies were running low.

I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. Me and my family had an awesome day.

[JohnDB]

Last chance,

Provide documentation,   corroborating evidence of your salacious claim or this thread is heading to the dumps.

Beer and liquor sales in saloons have done much damage to the moral fibre of this nation...

[Jd34]

What part? Every credible source of history that I find does not go against anything I say. Pilgrims drank beer, any historian will tell you that

"When the weather is fair, the days are much the same. We pray as we rise in the morning and before and after we take our meals. For food we commonly have pease or bean pottage, cheese and ship's biscuit. For drink, we have beer. We have some water but they say it will soon go bad. Did I tell you that I have a friend? Her name is Mary and I am so.."

http://www.scholastic.com/scholastic_thanksgiving/letters/Mayflower_letter1.htm

What exactly are you having a hard time with?

Maybe it is you that should provide credible sources that are accurate accounts that what I say is not true.. You seem to want to paint the Puritians sole purpose was to be missionaries and evangelize . Their sole purpose was to find Religious Freedom.

And some contrast between the natives and Puritans
http://www.plimoth.org/learn/just-kids/homework-help/whats-dinner

No reason to suspect any of it not to be true in my mind. It makes logical sense

[JohnDB]

You have claimed that they put ashore in Plymouth due to running out of beer when all sources say bad weather kept them from Virginia.

You also neglect to mention "small/short" beer which basically was water steralized with an alcoholic beverage. (Beer or wine)

And the practice became abandoned in America because the water was fresh in America and uncontaminated with fecal matter(common in Europe)

And persecution wasn't the main reason they left as there were subsequent trips with more from this group of puritans on other trips in subsequent years. It was more to get away from the "jerks in the neighborhood" and to evangelize.
They considered the others in the neighborhood to be more heathen than themselves and were worried about the influence upon their children.  (Although that didn't stop them from forcibly conscripting some other children for the fateful voyage)

Where yes they drank beer and wine drunkenness was still a sin...and considering the reason they came to America the likelihood of construction of a brewhouse is tabloid at best. They did steal food from the natives.  They did make a peace treaty with them...well those that survived contact with Europeans and their diseases. They also paid back the food they stole...6 months later.

The settlers actually took over a tribe's former home that died due to European diseases.

[JoyfulHomemaker]

LOL maybe he likes beer.

[Free Christian]

Im pretty hopeless at putting up links but if you looked up or put in your search engine  "Pilgrims stopping for beer is a falsehood by Bob Skilnik" You might see a different slant on what you have been told about it JD. The quote that is used to show they did stop solely for that reason is only a portion of the whole account.

[Jd34]

You have claimed that they put ashore in Plymouth due to running out of beer when all sources say bad weather kept them from Virginia.

I have claimed that running low on beer was ONE reason by why they had to stop- not the only reason.! People have debated it on both sides- you have the yeh and the ney sayers.

Use your brain some. If the water is going bad on the ship and the beer and wine are the only thing to drink, what's going to happen when thats all gone. All of their supplies were running low. So, I think it is a valid statement to say that ONE reason they had to stop was because their beer was running out.

For me, I just thought "the beer thing" was a fascinating fact.. Puritans drinking beer  ! Drink enough of "that low grade" stuff and I am sure they felt it.

It amazes me how some can't accept that fact and when it is shown to be credible - they have to down play it.

I guess your going to tell me next that Jesus's wine was really grape juice. 

[Jd34]

Im pretty hopeless at putting up links but if you looked up or put in your search engine  "Pilgrims stopping for beer is a falsehood by Bob Skilnik" You might see a different slant on what you have been told about it JD. The quote that is used to show they did stop solely for that reason is only a portion of the whole account.

http://www.joesixpack.net/columnArchives/2007/111607.htm

That Bob fellow is most certainly entitled to his opinion. There are a lot of ther opinions on the subject matter also..

I guess all the history books need to be re written now.

[JohnDB]

Precisely Free Christian,

They stopped due to sightings of land and then poor weather trapped them in that harbor.
Most stayed on the Mayflower.  Some got off

Half the crew and pilgrims died due to scurvy, pneumonia,  and tuberculosis during the winter.

The ship left in march or april and arrived in Europe in half the time it took to get to America. However the captain was done and never sailed again.
(He died a couple years later)

The puritans were many things...holier than thou, kidnappers, theifs, and lazy but alcoholics wasn't one of their vices.


Beer was not a primary reason for anything...one one contributing element of existence in early American history.
Its not even debated except by YOU.  All others agree about weather being the primary reason.  Thoughts of marching to Virginia were considered.   That was going to be better than sailing...and marching was really out of the question.  (As said in the diary)

Maybe YOU should read the personal accounts.  Just remember that the letter "y" is really a "thorn" and makes the "th" sound. So ye is actually the...and etc.

[Jd34]

Precisely.

They stopped due to sightings of land and then poor weather trapped them in that harbor.
Most stayed on the Mayflower.  Some got off

Half the crew and pilgrims died due to scurvy, pneumonia,  and tuberculosis during the winter.

The ship left in march or april and arrived in Europe in half the time it took to get to America. However the captain was done and never sailed again.
(He died a couple years later)


Beer was not a primary reason for anything...one one contributing element of existence in early American history.
Its not even debated except by YOU.  All others agree about weather being the primary reason.  Thoughts of marching to Virginia were considered.   That was going to be better than sailing...and marching was really out of the question.  (As said in the diary)

Maybe YOU should read the personal accounts.  Just remember that the letter "y" is really a "thorn" and makes the "th" sound. So ye is actually the...and etc.

I postedhttp://www.joesixpack.net/columnArchives/2007/111607.htm the link of the pilgrim child saying they drink beer because the water was bad? Use your brain! Man can't live long without water and when no more beverage to drink is left, you will die!

I read everything with great caution.. Do you want me to start posting up the 100's of links and sources that holds to the beer stoping.

People seem not to listen to the common sense that God gives them.

I am so over this topic, maybe revisit it again next year at this time, but for now that would even be too soon.

[JohnDB]

They used beer like wine to sterilize the water.   Drinking beer straight was out of the question.

They were not getting drunk. ..which is what you seem to be promoting...which would be a lie.

Liberty is not a license to sin.  Doing so is unChristian.

But you have posted one site that contains tabloid history.  (Site that blows up a minor fact to salaciousness)
Same type of tabloid history that destroys the gospel message, removes America's deeply Christian history,  and makes a mockery of those in the past.

[Nevertheless]

I am so over this topic, maybe revisit it again next year at this time, but for now that would even be too soon.

You're so over this topic? You're the one that is so shocked by the thought that Pilgrims drank beer. Why shouldn't they?

[Alan]

So they had no water on the ship and were forced to drink beer and when the beer supply became low they stopped to get more beer? Why on earth would they have not stopped to get precious WATER rather than beer?

[Jd34]

I am so over this topic, maybe revisit it again next year at this time, but for now that would even be too soon.

You're so over this topic? You're the one that is so shocked by the thought that Pilgrims drank beer. Why shouldn't they?

I'm not shocked, I actually find it super hilarious on how people assert their own take of things.  If such a fairly resent event in history can be so skewed, think just how much the books of the Bible can possibly be skewed.. Lots of different bibles, lots of translations and lots of different interpretations.

People need to learn how to decern a little better.

The simple fact is that the Puritians liked and drank beer and wine. No big deal! But it seems to be a big deal for all the cherrypickers, who like to assert that it was only used for sterile uses and preservatives (  ). I know better than that.

In those links that I posted two first hand quotes from two different passengers on the Mayflower - if those two quotes to be actual and true then I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to connect the dots!!

Alcohol is such a taboo subject for a lot of Christians and I find it funny how it was such a major component and so important in the Puritans lives.

Some Christians just can't accept or even entertain the idea of it. Personally,  I could care less about it. It doesn't threaten me in anyway.

Truth be known, I bet alot of you had no concept of Beer being a part of the Puritan life or being said that was....

The absolute truth is this: None of us were there so none of us really know anything. Someone mentioned to read "real" history  .

The Puritans were the most pure Christians who had such a call to preach the word , that they risked their life to set sail to enlighten those that did not know. The beer and wine they carried with them was for sterilization and used as a preservative only.. Little to no alcohol fermented from pumpkins they were forced to drink beer when the onboard water went bad (microbial contamination).

Better?? 


.

[Jd34]

So they had no water on the ship and were forced to drink beer and when the beer supply became low they stopped to get more beer? Why on earth would they have not stopped to get precious WATER rather than beer?

They did not trust water. They knew the illness that waterborne diseases cause but they didnt understand the science behind it like we do now. They were scared and very cautious of water.

[Free Christian]

I am so over this topic, maybe revisit it again next year at this time, but for now that would even be too soon.

You need a new Calendar.

[Jd34]

I am so over this topic, maybe revisit it again next year at this time, but for now that would even be too soon.

You need a new Calendar.

No I don't need a new calendar  I just become a little stubborn for when the truth meter starts hitting at about a 90% confidence level and people start to avoid it. I know what we read or have been told can never be 100% proven but I can see how some people are conditioned and have become locked solid into believing 100% however they like.

Sorry to say but the first settlers were not as  "pure" as you want to believe them to be. Source after source confirms this. -I understand how Anheiser Bush tried to use it to promote beer and I think this is when people started trying to punch holes in the Pilgrim and beer stories.

Here are just a very few of the many links on the subject (credible or not credible is your decision to make)
  http://www.health.am/psy/more/a-history-of-alcohol-abuse-and-dependence/
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/jul12.html
http://www.hoboes.com/Politics/Prohibition/Notes/Drinking/
http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol/FunFacts/PuritansToProhibition.html#.VHoiA20o45v
https://familyloveandoils.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/things-you-probably-didnt-know-about-the-pilgrims/
http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/The-Mayflower-Crossing-272763.html

Its not for me to question the trueness of ones heart but I am very skeptical of the Godliness of the colonist ( makes me think of the Salem Witch trials) Just how stupid and gullible were these people?  Reminds me of modern day ISIS beheadings in the name of allah.

Why do I think like this?

I learned a very important lesson when I was five years old. It was my first day in kindergarten. It was a small class of fifteen 5 and 6 year old little girls and boys.The teacher gave us a pencil and piece of paper and asked us to write down our numbers 1 thru 10.

During this time, the principle called for the teacher over the intercom to come to his office. This was the very first experience I had ever had with an intercom system- The voice just came out of nowhere and filled the air. I thought it was God!    I was really nervous now..Anyway, I knew my numbers and had no worries about getting them right. It was what happened next that was troubling to me..

The teacher was still out of the room so we all started comparing what we had written down. There was this one girl (Jill) who wrote her 3 backwards. In my soul I was positive that she was wrong but then there was this other girl (Valerie) who had done the same. Everyone else had all their numbers correct..

Those two girls were so sure that they were right and that everyone else was wrong that they started convincing everyone with certain reasons to why they were right... And sure enough, the classmates began to erase their correct 3 and write down the incorrect backward 3.. For each person that jumped on their bandwagon made it easier for the next one to do so. I was the last one to change my 3.

It was a huge struggle for me to change my 3 but everyone was sure that I was wrong. I changed it for them.

Then "God's" voice filled the air again    and told us to be quite and that the teacher will be back soon. I was so scared that I went to change my 3 back but it was too late because the teacher walked in..   That was 40 years ago and still sticks with me today...

Whats the point of all this?

I see the very few neh sayers in this subject matter such as that Bob sklink ..as the Jill's and Valerie's  of my kindergarten class.

I can only agree to disagree and leave it at that..

[Jd34]

LOL maybe he likes beer.

No, I like the truth and the rest of the story...I don't like living in a bubble.

[MeMyself]

I am so over this topic, maybe revisit it again next year at this time, but for now that would even be too soon.

You need a new Calendar.

No I don't need a new calendar  I just become a little stubborn for when the truth meter starts hitting at about a 90% confidence level and people start to avoid it. I know what we read or have been told can never be 100% proven but I can see how some people are conditioned and have become locked solid into believing 100% however they like.

Sorry to say but the first settlers were not as  "pure" as you want to believe them to be. Source after source confirms this. -I understand how Anheiser Bush tried to use it to promote beer and I think this is when people started trying to punch holes in the Pilgrim and beer stories.

Here are just a very few of the many links on the subject (credible or not credible is your decision to make)
  http://www.health.am/psy/more/a-history-of-alcohol-abuse-and-dependence/
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/asktheexpert/jul12.html
http://www.hoboes.com/Politics/Prohibition/Notes/Drinking/
http://www2.potsdam.edu/alcohol/FunFacts/PuritansToProhibition.html#.VHoiA20o45v
https://familyloveandoils.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/things-you-probably-didnt-know-about-the-pilgrims/
http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/The-Mayflower-Crossing-272763.html

Its not for me to question the trueness of ones heart but I am very skeptical of the Godliness of the colonist ( makes me think of the Salem Witch trials) Just how stupid and gullible were these people?  Reminds me of modern day ISIS beheadings in the name of allah.

Why do I think like this?

I learned a very important lesson when I was five years old. It was my first day in kindergarten. It was a small class of fifteen 5 and 6 year old little girls and boys.The teacher gave us a pencil and piece of paper and asked us to write down our numbers 1 thru 10.

During this time, the principle called for the teacher over the intercom to come to his office. This was the very first experience I had ever had with an intercom system- The voice just came out of nowhere and filled the air. I thought it was God!    I was really nervous now..Anyway, I knew my numbers and had no worries about getting them right. It was what happened next that was troubling to me..

The teacher was still out of the room so we all started comparing what we had written down. There was this one girl (Jill) who wrote her 3 backwards. In my soul I was positive that she was wrong but then there was this other girl (Valerie) who had done the same. Everyone else had all their numbers correct..

Those two girls were so sure that they were right and that everyone else was wrong that they started convincing everyone with certain reasons to why they were right... And sure enough, the classmates began to erase their correct 3 and write down the incorrect backward 3.. For each person that jumped on their bandwagon made it easier for the next one to do so. I was the last one to change my 3.

It was a huge struggle for me to change my 3 but everyone was sure that I was wrong. I changed it for them.

Then "God's" voice filled the air again    and told us to be quite and that the teacher will be back soon. I was so scared that I went to change my 3 back but it was too late because the teacher walked in..   That was 40 years ago and still sticks with me today...

Whats the point of all this?

I see the very few neh sayers in this subject matter such as that Bob sklink ..as the Jill's and Valerie's  of my kindergarten class.

I can only agree to disagree and leave it at that..

  No offense, but this post comes off as very arrogant.

[MeMyself]

LOL maybe he likes beer.

No, I like the truth and the rest of the story...I don't like living in a bubble.

This whole thread is akin to majoring on minors.

Who *cares*?!

[Jd34]

LOL maybe he likes beer.

No, I like the truth and the rest of the story...I don't like living in a bubble.

This whole thread is akin to majoring on minors.

It is the principle of it all.. If 90% of the truth is arrogant then charge me as guilty..

Just Imagine how arrogant Caiaphas must of thought Jesus was...

Judge me as you will.

Who *cares*?!

[Jd34]

Granted I understand  but it is the principle of it all.. If 90% of the truth is arrogant then charge me as guilty..

Just Imagine how arrogant Caiaphas must of thought of Jesus ..

Not saying that  I rank anywhere near Jesus   ::bowing::or anything lol,  but Judge me as you will. Just trying to better educate and inform is all..

Ephesians 6:12

[marc]

A lot of posts disappeared in today's outage, so I'll just say this short and quick--Pilgrims and Puritans are not the same thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DaveW]

You have claimed that they put ashore in Plymouth due to running out of beer when all sources say bad weather kept them from Virginia.

I have claimed that running low on beer was ONE reason by why they had to stop- not the only reason.! People have debated it on both sides- you have the yeh and the ney sayers.

Well - if they had been Wesleyan holiness people then beer would not have been an issue at all.

I guess your going to tell me next that Jesus's wine was really grape juice.

According to all the pastors I had growing up; that is exactly true.

[MeMyself]

Judge me as you will.

I didn't judge *you*, I said your post came off as arrogant. 

It is the principle of it all..

The principle of WHAT?  WHO cares if they drank beer, were running out of beer, bathed in beer, used beer to wish their dishes?

If 90% of the truth is arrogant then charge me as guilty..

What?