Homosexuality in and of itself is 'not' a sin in the Bible..

[DaveW]

If Paul had wanted to condemn homosexual behavior in general, the word for it at the time was paiderasste. What he did, rather than simply use one of the many existing, quite precise Greek terms for aspects of homosexuality (or for homosexuality in general) – words that he would have been quite aware of – is create an entirely new word: "arsenokoitai"

Aaron - again you are IGNORING the proper translation of those terms by one of the most intelegent men on the planet (the only DOUBLE king scholar to graduate Eaton in the last 500 years). You claim Paul made up arsenokoitai, but Prince was completely familiar with the word from other Greek sources.

The Greek language is a LOT bigger than the text of the NT. Were you unaware of that fact or just convieniently ignoring it?

[Aaron Lindahl]

JD, they only behave that way when cast out of society and family, and certainly not all gay people behave that way.

That is why it is entirely within Christ's teachings to welcome and celebrate the unique way that God created homosexuals, and to encourage them to find another to marry and live a monogamous life with, rather than to condemn and/or cast them out, which almost inevitably leads to despair, and a promiscuous and dangerous lifestyle in an attempt to gain the physical affection and love they were denied.

[Aaron Lindahl]

Dave, it is not I who is ignoring true and honest translation regarding this issue.

Do you honestly believe that so many thousands of congregations went through the painful process of admitting that they had been following false teachings regarding homosexual people if it weren't extremely clear when confronted with an honest translation?

1 Corinthians 6:9 & 1 Timothy 1:10

These verses are mistranslated in pretty much every English Bible commonly available.Both verses are printed below in Greek, then transliterated, and then with correct translations, and explanations about the translations.

1 Corinthians 6:9

Ἤ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι Θεοῦ βασιλείαν οὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; Μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτε πόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶ οὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται...

I ouk idhate oti adhiki Theou vasilian ou klironomisousin? Mi planasthe; oute porni oute idhololatrai oute mikhi oute malaki oute arsenokitai...

(Transliteration of Modern Greek pronunciation.)

Or haven't you known that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be misled; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor soft ones* nor those who lie with males...**

1 Timothy 1:10

πόρωοις, ἀρσενοκοίταις, ἀνδραποδισταῖς, ψεύσταις, ἐπιόρκοις, καὶ εἴ τι ἕτερον τῇ ὑγιαινούσῃ διδασκαλίᾳ ἀντίκειται,

...pornis, arsenokitais, andhrapodhistais, psevstais, epiorkis, kei i ti eterov ti iyi-einousi dhidhaskalia antikitai,

(Transliteration of Modern Greek pronunciation.)

...to fornicators, to those who lie with males,** to kidnappers, to liars, to perjurers, and if any other thing opposes healthful teaching,

*Soft ones: The Greek word malaki (mala-KEE) is a plural noun, derived from the adjective malakos (mala-KOS). The adjective means soft or fine, but is restricted in its use to describing material or clothing. It describes the type of clothing worn by wealthy people. This adjective was used in Luke 7:25, when Jesus asked the crowd if they had gone out to the wilderness expecting to see someone dressed in fine clothing. Coining a noun from this adjective would logically suggest the type of people who wear soft or fine clothing. Jesus Himself indicated the near impossibility of wealthy people entering the kingdom.

**Those who lie with males: The Greek word arsenokitai (arseno-KEE-tay) (the form used in 1 Timothy is arsenokitais [arseno-KEE-tays]), is formed by combining the noun arsin, which means male, with the construction kit-, a derivative of the verb kimei, which means lie down. Combined, the word refers to people who lie down with males. What remains to be determined is whether the word is referring to males lying with males, or females lying with males. Ordinarily, to determine if a Greek noun is masculine or feminine, one looks at it in the nominative case with the definite article. For example, o adhelfos, the brother, is in the nominative case, and both the os ending and the definite article o tell us the noun is masculine. But the word used in these two verses presents a small challenge to us, because in ancient literature, it never appears with a definite article. (In fact, outside these two passages, it never appears at all) Of course, we could simply look it up in a Modern Greek dictionary, and it would tell us the word is masculine and means homosexual. But is that the end of it? Actually, no. The dictionary's definition and assignment of gender is based on centuries of preconceived notions about what Paul was saying, and not on actual usage from the first century. So in this case, the dictionary can't answer the question for us. We need to look back to the word itself, and its context, to search for clues.

The last two letters of the word in 1 Corinthians, and the last three in 1 Timothy, are where we need to look first. Greek nouns are declined according to case. That is, the ending of a noun changes to indicate how the word is being used in the sentence. We have something similar in English pronouns: We use the word I as a subject, but me as an object.

For all intents and purposes, I and me mean the same thing. But it is incorrect to say Me want a book, or Give I a book. In 1 Corinthians, the word is in the nominative case, and the ending is one that is often feminine. This would suggest that the word is referring to women lying with males. In 1 Timothy, the word is in the dative case, which in English corresponds to putting the word to before the noun. (Example: Give the book TO ME.) And again, the ending is one that is often feminine. The fact that this word is not found anywhere else in literature of the period suggests that Paul himself coined it.

Although there was no such word as homosexual at the time, there were words that could be used to indicate sexual activity between persons of the same sex. Had Paul intended to refer to homosexuals here, common sense would have him use words people already knew and understood. But the creation of a new word suggests a different concept. Had he intended for his new word to be understood to refer to males, he would have given it a different ending. The plural ending oi (ois in the dative case) is never feminine, and would have served the purpose. But he didn't do that. So even without the definite article to prove the point, the evidence so far suggests that Paul was speaking about women when he used this word, not men.

When honestly translated, Scripture contains no prior condemnation of homosexuality.

Paul, as a Jewish scholar, could not have been ignorant of this. So for him to suddenly, and without precedent, introduce a condemnation of homosexuality, without a word of explanation, would make absolutely no sense, and would have created an uproar in the early churches. This is why for the first 300 years of Christianity, homosexuals were openly welcomed into the church, and were never persecuted.

[MeMyself]

JD, they only behave that way when cast out of society and family, and certainly not all gay people behave that way.

I disagree. I have seen the need to justify from those that come from family that fully celebrates with them.

That is why it is entirely within Christ's teachings to welcome and celebrate the unique way that God created homosexuals, and to encourage them to find another to marry and live a monogamous life with, rather than to condemn and/or cast them out, which almost inevitably leads to despair, and a promiscuous and dangerous lifestyle in an attempt to gain the physical affection and love they were denied.

oh my gosh!  WHY would we do this?  WHY would we see someone on the edge of a building about to fall to their death and say "go, ahead and jump...and take someone with you!" That just breaks my heart.

We can accept them, their sin that besets them, love them and befriend them, but also, call them to live a life surrendered to godliness.  They should remain celibate...just like those who are unmarried.

People will not die to do so.

[DaveW]

That is why it is entirely within Christ's teachings to welcome and celebrate the unique way that God created homosexuals, and to encourage them to find another to marry and live a monogamous life with, rather than to condemn and/or cast them out, which almost inevitably leads to despair, and a promiscuous and dangerous lifestyle in an attempt to gain the physical affection and love they were denied.

No - God did NOT make them that way.  They were distorted by being born into a sinful and fallen world system. 

There is repentance and there is the power of the Holy Spirit for those who are in Messiah. They can marry someone of the opposite gender and find the love and physical affection you seem to think trumps God's word.

[DaveW]

Do you honestly believe that so many thousands of congregations went through the painful process of admitting that they had been following false teachings regarding homosexual people if it weren't extremely clear when confronted with an honest translation?

Absolutely.  They have been duped by NOT hearing the voice of God for themselves and just arguing over words on paper. They have been blinded by the spirit of the age that says this behavior is ok.

[Jd34]

JD, they only behave that way when cast out of society and family, and certainly not all gay people behave that way.

That is why it is entirely within Christ's teachings to welcome and celebrate the unique way that God created homosexuals, and to encourage them to find another to marry and live a monogamous life with, rather than to condemn and/or cast them out, which almost inevitably leads to despair, and a promiscuous and dangerous lifestyle in an attempt to gain the physical affection and love they were denied.

Thanks for the reply. Have a blessed day Aaron. 

[MeMyself]

Do you honestly believe that so many thousands of congregations went through the painful process of admitting that they had been following false teachings regarding homosexual people if it weren't extremely clear when confronted with an honest translation?

Absolutely.  They have been duped by NOT hearing the voice of God for themselves and just arguing over words on paper. They have been blinded by the spirit of the age that says this behavior is ok.

[DaveW]

When honestly translated, Scripture contains no prior condemnation of homosexuality.

Paul, as a Jewish scholar, could not have been ignorant of this. So for him to suddenly, and without precedent, introduce a condemnation of homosexuality, without a word of explanation, would make absolutely no sense, and would have created an uproar in the early churches. This is why for the first 300 years of Christianity, homosexuals were openly welcomed into the church, and were never persecuted.

No prior condemnation?  Really?

How do YOU understand Lev 20.13?

Have you read the talmuds? (culled from the teachings that Paul received under Gameliel the Great - who is often quoted)

You may want to check this out:
http://torahweb.org/torah/special/2010/homosexuality.html

[Aaron Lindahl]

Dave and memyself... we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I've stated my beliefs, backed up by an overwhelmingly detailed analysis of the original Greek and Hebrew words, along with a very detailed history of the Church on this issue, and listed all the many Christian congregations that agree with what I've shared with you.

You've stated your beliefs.

Neither of us are going to agree with the other so further discussion on this is useless.

Unless you desire to 'argue' uselessly, which I definitely do not, and which would be a very un-Christian thing to do, please stop making any further comments to me.

[Aaron Lindahl]

Thank you jd and I wish the blessing of Christ on you as well! :-)

[MeMyself]

Unless you desire to 'argue' uselessly, which I definitely do not, and which would be a very un-Christian thing to do, please stop making any further comments to me.

Were you only wishing replies from those that agree with you or were "won" by your views?

Do you plan on continuing to post on this subject?  If so, even if Dave and I choose to abide by you telling us not to reply to you, others will.

Standing up to sin is not useless arguing either, just FYI.

[DaveW]

Aaron - I will not be quiet on this because you are advocating a sinful lifestyle in opposition to scripture.

The religious leaders of His day wanted our Lord to be quiet also but He NEVER was.  He proclaimed the truth even while hanging on the cross.

If you would only repent and ask God to change your view point, you could see the validity of what we have been saying.

[chosenone]

JD, they only behave that way when cast out of society and family, and certainly not all gay people behave that way.

That is why it is entirely within Christ's teachings to welcome and celebrate the unique way that God created homosexuals, and to encourage them to find another to marry and live a monogamous life with, rather than to condemn and/or cast them out, which almost inevitably leads to despair, and a promiscuous and dangerous lifestyle in an attempt to gain the physical affection and love they were denied.

Jesus doesnt do that, because He KNOWS that its wrong and damaging and that it will only lead to pain and death. At this time
you seem to be saying that only Jesus' actual recorded words are Gods words, when of course its the whole Bible. As has already been pointed out to you, Jesus Himself reinforced what marriage is, and that is a covenant relationship between 2 people of the opposite sex.
There are countless Christians who live celibate lives because they have same sex attraction and KNOW that God has said they must not be in such a union. As I said we have people here all the time who try and justify their sin, and ignore the many verses that say its wrong.   

[chosenone]

JD, they only behave that way when cast out of society and family, and certainly not all gay people behave that way.

That is why it is entirely within Christ's teachings to welcome and celebrate the unique way that God created homosexuals, and to encourage them to find another to marry and live a monogamous life with, rather than to condemn and/or cast them out, which almost inevitably leads to despair, and a promiscuous and dangerous lifestyle in an attempt to gain the physical affection and love they were denied.

No one is forced into a promiscuous and dangerous life style, that is their choice. As I said, there are countless celibate unmarried Christians in the church, straight and gay. Its either that or disobey God. Everyhing He says is for our good, believe me.

[Aaron Lindahl]

I've already stated my position in previous posts.. we obviously disagree.  What is the point of continuing to make comments to me on something I've already addressed except for personal and extremely non-Christian malice??

If someone has something 'new' that hasn't been addressed by me already, that is fine.

[chosenone]

Dave and memyself... we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I've stated my beliefs, backed up by an overwhelmingly detailed analysis of the original Greek and Hebrew words, along with a very detailed history of the Church on this issue, and listed all the many Christian congregations that agree with what I've shared with you.

You've stated your beliefs.

Neither of us are going to agree with the other so further discussion on this is useless.

Unless you desire to 'argue' uselessly, which I definitely do not, and which would be a very un-Christian thing to do, please stop making any further comments to me.

Its irrelevant what some churches do or dont do, or what the church has or hasnt done in the past. Its Gods words that we heed, and we here have posted many verses that clearly tell you in simple terms what marriage is and isnt and what God created sex for.

I heard a true story a while back of a gay couple here in the uk, who converted to Jesus. They carried on living together but many months later, they were praying together, and suddenly the power of God came on them as they sat there. Eventually they went to bed, but in the morning they both KNEW they had to end their relationship and give up that life. God had convicted them and changed them.

You will never have that intimacy with God until you stop joining your body with another man. You are living outside Gods will or blessings. 

[Aaron Lindahl]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[chosenone]

I've already stated my position in previous posts.. we obviously disagree.  What is the point of continuing to make comments to me on something I've already addressed except for personal and extremely non-Christian malice??

If someone has something 'new' that hasn't been addressed by me already, that is fine.

If you have anything new maybe you can do the same?
I know a lady who justified in her mind divorcing her husband for another man. I know many who try and justify having sex outside marriage. If we want something enough and arent prepared to give it up for God even when He clearly says its wrong, then we will try and justify it while ignoring most of the Bible. It never ceases to amaze me what believers will try and justify.  


My local vicar is a lovely anglican man with such a heart to see ALL people saved. However he says he is prepared to loose his job and home if Anglicans are forced to conduct gay marriages. Most church leaders here would do the same.
As one said, how can I bless what God has condemned???   

[Aaron Lindahl]

Nope, nothing new for now.... I've already said quite a lot, and realize that most people aren't even reading what I posted anyway, as evidenced by their questions and statements, so I'm fine for now. Thanks.

[MeMyself]

I've already stated my position in previous posts.. we obviously disagree.  What is the point of continuing to make comments to me on something I've already addressed except for personal and extremely non-Christian malice??

Wow. You are really quite skilled at the shame messaging aren't you?  No one has attacked you, or responded to you in an  un-Christlike way.  There has also not been any malice in the replies to you.

If someone has something 'new' that hasn't been addressed by me already, that is fine.

But, if you keep making claims, you really should be ready for others to stand up and say "not so".

[Aaron Lindahl]

I advise you to be less confrontational, recognize when a discussion is fruitful, and when it is not... unless you simply desire to argue for arguing's sake, which is not what a mature adult engages in, and dwell upon the following teachings instead:

Romans 14:1-4  As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 15:5-7  May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.

James 4:11-12 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Matthew 22:36-39 "Teacher," he asked, "which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and the most important commandment.  The second most important commandment is like it: 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'


Luke 6:37  Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven.

1 John 3:15  Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

John 3:17  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

[DaveW]

I advise you to be less confrontational, recognize when a discussion is fruitful, and when it is not... unless you simply desire to argue for arguing's sake, which is not what a mature adult engages in, and dwell upon the following teachings instead:

By "when it is not," do you mean that it is not going your way? Face it. You have lost this discussion and you need to repent of your position. 

Pure and simple.

Isaiah 5:20  Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[MeMyself]

I advise you to be less confrontational, recognize when a discussion is fruitful, and when it is not... unless you simply desire to argue for arguing's sake, which is not what a mature adult engages in, and dwell upon the following teachings instead:

Oh my gosh. More digs.  Sad.

I am not being confrontational. I am challenging your thoughts, however. That IS allowed here.  I don't have to be quiet just because you don't like what I have to say. 

Romans 14:1-4  As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 15:5-7  May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you, for the glory of God.

James 4:11-12 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Matthew 22:36-39 "Teacher," he asked, "which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and the most important commandment.  The second most important commandment is like it: 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'


Luke 6:37  Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven.

1 John 3:15  Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

John 3:17  For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

These are all great scriptures, but they do not apply here since no one replying to you is judging, hating, condemning, being unloving, or speaking evil against you.  This is far more than opinion. This has potential to cause someone to stumble into sin and that is a very serious offense.

If you were quibbling over coffee vs. tea, I wouldn't enter into debate, because there is no potential to sin.  This topic DOES.

[Aaron Lindahl]

No, I have not 'lost' this discussion.  I realize saying that makes you feel better, so say that while looking in a mirror.. it'll feel even better, I'm sure.

The reality is that I've stated that we simply disagree, listed an enormous amount of detailed direct translations that support what I say, while you have not, and cannot handle that.

[Johnb]

Aaron
A couple of general things.  Most are not disagreeing with you because we are mean or unloving.  I have those in my family who are practicing homosexuals.  I love them and accept them but not their sin.  We all have things we struggle with but that does not change the nature of sin.  My comments on being a Greek scholar above those who translate is not just you but we have some here who try to do the same to make obedience the way to salvation instead of faith and grace.

If you want folks to red your posts they need to be short and make a single point not a doctoral paper that is stored away in the library and no one reads.  You like the rest of us will not have everyone and some times no one agreeing with you.  Does not mean we are unkind our unloving or unchristian.  Just means we disagree.
Welcome to the forum.  Hope you keep posting you might find we have many views in common.   

[MeMyself]

I realize saying that makes you feel better, so say that while looking in a mirror.. it'll feel even better, I'm sure.

The reality is that we simply disagree and you cannot handle that.

Its not that it can't be handled. If you are done talking, so will I be. 

However, if you continue to post on the subject, so will I. 

[MeMyself]

Aaron
A couple of general things.  Most are not disagreeing with you because we are mean or unloving.  I have those in my family who are practicing homosexuals.  I love them and accept them but not their sin.   

I have as well.

[Rella]

no one is born gay,

I do not agree with that.  There is some evidence that a same-gender attraction can be demonic in origin; and some people are born demonized. So being "born that way" is certainly not out of the question.

By the same token - a baby can also be born with a demon of hatred or murder.  Those would still be considered sinful.

There is another aspect that needs to be covered regarding being born that way or not.

Being born demonized is a certain consideration but what about the seeming "explosion" of gays today.

Stop and consider the general  age group of the bulk of those so called "coming out."

Their parents and and many grandparents were alive and well in the 1960s and after when the hippy movement, free love and free drug use was encourages to all those who would listen.

I remember working at a store in 1984 and a young woman, in her 20s.... I was in my late 30s... refused to believe I had never ever tried a drug of any kind....

And I never have.

But the majority of those have at the least smoked marijuana.

What screwed up effect on their bodies did these people do that may have alterd the fetuses they were carrying, even if they did not use drugs during her pregnancy.

This could be a direct outcome.

(Example: We all know, or those of us to have children coming out at the moment, do,  of the parents of Chastity/Chaz Bono. Did she/he make a lifestyle choice or was the lifestyle of the parents in their youth responsible with their admitted acceptance of illegal substances?

ALSO... Just think of what the government has and is accepting in the way of food modifications and genetic alterations....

That started in the 80s big time as well.... With the tomato and corn genetic alterations to begin with.

This could well be accountable for such changes in someones baby.

I am certain it is accountable for the epidemic we see in  diabetes and many other diseases we see today.

God help us if they start selling cloned meat....

In any even, whatever the reason... by choice or birth... abstinence is the word of the day.

[Catholica]

Aaron you haven't responded to my last post, just in case you missed it.

[Johnb]

Aaron
One more point we do not have to agree to be brother in Christ. At least you are generating a lot of discussion.   

[Aaron Lindahl]

Memyself...Do you think that by posting little smiley icons like a teenager would do makes you seem like a person who engages in serious adult debate?

[Aaron Lindahl]

JohnB... if your attention span and reading comprehension level aren't up to the task of reading my detailed and scholarly posts, and you desire something short and 'simple'.. then this conversation is definitely not for such as you.

[MeMyself]

Aaron you haven't responded to my last post, just in case you missed it.

I hope he does. Its a really good one, Catholica

[MeMyself]

Do you think that by posting little smiley icons like a teenager would do makes you seem like a person who engages in serious adult debate?

Not real sure what bothers you so much about the smilies here.  I like them, because they help add a little bit of humanity to the posts. 

At any rate, there is no need to be rude.  That is not very loving nor is it Christlike.