"Why don't men pursue women anymore?"

[chosenone]

I detest "women" interviewers in a man's sport such as football.

We detest them too *coughFOXcough* but it's mostly because they hire airheads who aren't knowledgeable about the game, and not so much because they lack boy parts.

Jarrod

We have some pretty good and knowledgeable women sports interviewers/commentators here. As long as they are chosen for their knowledge and interest in sport, and not just because maybe they are attractive, then its can work really well.

[chosenone]

Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,

Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right?

Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.

Yep, despite any past wrong doings by men as a whole has resulted in the modern day woman vowing to never be inferior to a man, the problem is that this mentality is often carried out through the injustices we so often hear about today, hence the article.

Most of the small number of women who do go 'over the top' in their actions with men, are often those who have been the most hurt by men, and the same the other way round.

[Cally]

What you usually say is 'most' or the 'majority', or 'hardly any' women act well, not 'all.'

This is a LIE. I did not say that most women would sexually abuse or falsely accuse a man.

I said that the majority of women are apparently indifferent to the lack of justice for men in their right not to be tossed into jail just from an accusation. You show yourself to be included.

This is your  very basic failure to reason if you can't distinguish the two comments.

If women are in fear of being accused of 'making things up' then the truth will never come out and that would be sad.

You CANNOT take ANYONE'S right to due process (male or female) or fail to put the burden of proof on the accuser (male or female). PERIOD. That is a basic human right and it's one worth fighting for--and thank God, some people (men and women both!) are fighting for it for men's sake right now against those who would violate it.

This is YOUR moral bankruptcy chosenone. Men are victims of crimes like forced sex by women too, and likewise more and more men are also coming out about their victimhood (though their female abusers very seldom get remotely the same punishment as male offenders)--it is good for both genders. I am continuously saying that gender is irrelevant. YOU are the one trying to allow women to have an unjust amount of power over a man.

It's true, the world's courts cannot be expected to know everything. Many crimes of all kinds go unpunished--and we cannot possibly know which ones or how many. That's just our limitations as humans. But an accused person must be convicted "beyond a shadow of a doubt." That's an old rule I didn't make up, and one we ALL ought to be thankful for, and it is an injustice to have any exceptions whatsoever to that rule.

It is YOU who is disrespecting the equal personhood of men, in favor of taking their basic human rights away. You are exposed.

You have proven this statement to be true for simply by the fact that you oppose this discussion which has a focus on the protection of men, NOT indicting women. But you did prove the secondary point I made beautifully by showing that many women like you are responsible for this injustice if you approve of a basic human right being taken away from men.

[MeMyself]

I detest "women" interviewers in a man's sport such as football.

We detest them too *coughFOXcough* but it's mostly because they hire airheads who aren't knowledgeable about the game, and not so much because they lack boy parts.

Jarrod

[Cally]

coughFOXcough

The times I've watched FOX news, I thought the same thing: how did they pick those women?

[Alan]

Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,

Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right?

Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.

Yep, despite any past wrong doings by men as a whole has resulted in the modern day woman vowing to never be inferior to a man, the problem is that this mentality is often carried out through the injustices we so often hear about today, hence the article.

Most of the small number of women who do go 'over the top' in their actions with men, are often those who have been the most hurt by men, and the same the other way round.

I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women.  I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense. 

[Cally]

I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women.  I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense.

You'd be shocked at some of the things I've read about how public schools are actually teaching girls to be antagonistic toward boys.

Things have gotten so utterly insane, and it's because some people LET it get this insane with the gaping holes in their morality. In particular, those that cause them to be less able to protect men from women than vice-versa.

[chosenone]

Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,

Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right?

Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.

Yep, despite any past wrong doings by men as a whole has resulted in the modern day woman vowing to never be inferior to a man, the problem is that this mentality is often carried out through the injustices we so often hear about today, hence the article.

Most of the small number of women who do go 'over the top' in their actions with men, are often those who have been the most hurt by men, and the same the other way round.

I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women.  I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense.

I heard the true story of a woman who who was a man hater and an ardent feminist. She had been seriously abused by the men in her life. She was on a ship and there was a terrible storm, and she thought she would die. She met God and He began  her healing.  Bad attitudes towards one sex by a person from another often stems from that person being badly treated by a member or members of that sex.

[chosenone]

I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women.  I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense.

You'd be shocked at some of the things I've read about how public schools are actually teaching girls to be antagonistic toward boys.

Things have gotten so utterly insane, and it's because some people LET it get this insane with the gaping holes in their morality. In particular, those that cause them to be less able to protect men from women than vice-versa.

Which schools are these? Did you report them to the governing authorities?

[chosenone]

Men have been outright abusive and oppressive toward women in past times,

Oh, but watch out, Alan! We're against making statements like "all women" or "all men" are like that, right?

Whether what you say is true or not, I don't believe in excusing the current culture for this blatant injustice toward men as a group. And it is PRODUCTIVE to make men aware of this danger that they face.

Yep, despite any past wrong doings by men as a whole has resulted in the modern day woman vowing to never be inferior to a man, the problem is that this mentality is often carried out through the injustices we so often hear about today, hence the article.

Most of the small number of women who do go 'over the top' in their actions with men, are often those who have been the most hurt by men, and the same the other way round.

I don't believe the behavioral patterns women display today are a result of individual hurts, this has become a cultural behavior akin to promoting the strength of modern women.  I have absolutely no problem with strong women, in fact I find it quite attractive, but I do take issue when it's at a mans expense.

God does not have an issue with strong women either.

Proverbs 12:4Amplified Bible (AMP)

4 A virtuous and worthy wife [earnest and strong in character] is a crowning joy to her husband, but she who makes him ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.

[Cally]

Which schools are these? Did you report them to the governing authorities?

I read it in a news article which I am currently having trouble finding--sorry. :-/ I just asked an FB group to help me find it.

[Cally]

God does not have an issue with strong women either.

Proverbs 12:4Amplified Bible (AMP)

4 A virtuous and worthy wife [earnest and strong in character] is a crowning joy to her husband, but she who makes him ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.

Or how about

Proverbs 31:25
Strength and dignity are her clothing, and she laughs at the time to come.

[Cally]

I heard the true story of a woman who who was a man hater and an ardent feminist. She had been seriously abused by the men in her life. She was on a ship and there was a terrible storm, and she thought she would die. She met God and He began  her healing.  Bad attitudes towards one sex by a person from another often stems from that person being badly treated by a member or members of that sex.

You think Hitler and the Nazis committed the atrocities they did for no reason? It was because they felt beaten down (and they were, as more might have been done to save Germany's dignity at the end of WW1), and thought (real or imagined) that the Jews were mostly to blame. Yet who pulled any punches opposing them? Who believes that their actions toward Jews were in any way "understandable"? A few freakishly misguided people, perhaps, may think so.

Yes, chosenone, let's love feminists. Let's pray for them. Christ died for them, and there are surely hurts that God can heal in them. But at the same time, there must be no pulling punches in opposing feminists, because--get this--Christ died for the men that feminists want to hurt and HAVE hurt. It's been far, far too long that showing "understanding" for feminists has meant that the men they seek to harm have gone unprotected. We should not have to see men and boys get hurt by feminists before assuring that feminists would not be allowed to hurt anyone.

Men have always sinned against women. Women have always sinned against men. Everyone is valuable; feminists like us to think that the well-being of one gender is more important than the other, and I pray you and others don't make the same mistake as so many are. The worst feedback loop we have going on today is one in which more and more men are hurt by feminism, and prevalent responses like "where have all the good men gone?" because men ARE genuinely needed for their function. The answer, both morally and logically, is coming to men's defense, which not enough people are doing--but thank God for men and women who do.

What's more, a HUGE fallacy of the post-feminist era is that men's side of the fence had all the greener grass all along, and that is not true. Men's Rights countertheory calls attention to (basically) things like all the good things men have ALWAYS done for each other and women, the ways women have ALWAYS victimized men, and perks women have ALWAYS had at men's expense. Why? To pick on women, or make men superior? NO! To put the picture back in proportion after feminism taught a "male perpetrator, female victim" attitude in everyone's head to such disastrous effect.

Peace. ;-)

[DaveW]

Cally - your constant droning on this stuff is as tiring as NR's rants against the Jews. 

Give it a break, man.

[Cally]

^You could just ignore it if you feel that way, Dave. 

PS: you have to wonder how this topic rocketed up to almost a thousand views in two and a half weeks--pretty quickly compared to the rest of the stuff in the rest of the singles forum. 

I didn't expect this to turn into such a fiery debate, but the credit goes to chosenone for helping make that happen. 

[chosenone]

I heard the true story of a woman who who was a man hater and an ardent feminist. She had been seriously abused by the men in her life. She was on a ship and there was a terrible storm, and she thought she would die. She met God and He began  her healing.  Bad attitudes towards one sex by a person from another often stems from that person being badly treated by a member or members of that sex.

You think Hitler and the Nazis committed the atrocities they did for no reason? It was because they felt beaten down (and they were, as more might have been done to save Germany's dignity at the end of WW1), and thought (real or imagined) that the Jews were mostly to blame. Yet who pulled any punches opposing them? Who believes that their actions toward Jews were in any way "understandable"? A few freakishly misguided people, perhaps, may think so.

Yes, chosenone, let's love feminists. Let's pray for them. Christ died for them, and there are surely hurts that God can heal in them. But at the same time, there must be no pulling punches in opposing feminists, because--get this--Christ died for the men that feminists want to hurt and HAVE hurt. It's been far, far too long that showing "understanding" for feminists has meant that the men they seek to harm have gone unprotected. We should not have to see men and boys get hurt by feminists before assuring that feminists would not be allowed to hurt anyone.

Men have always sinned against women. Women have always sinned against men. Everyone is valuable; feminists like us to think that the well-being of one gender is more important than the other, and I pray you and others don't make the same mistake as so many are. The worst feedback loop we have going on today is one in which more and more men are hurt by feminism, and prevalent responses like "where have all the good men gone?" because men ARE genuinely needed for their function. The answer, both morally and logically, is coming to men's defense, which not enough people are doing--but thank God for men and women who do.

What's more, a HUGE fallacy of the post-feminist era is that men's side of the fence had all the greener grass all along, and that is not true. Men's Rights countertheory calls attention to (basically) things like all the good things men have ALWAYS done for each other and women, the ways women have ALWAYS victimized men, and perks women have ALWAYS had at men's expense. Why? To pick on women, or make men superior? NO! To put the picture back in proportion after feminism taught a "male perpetrator, female victim" attitude in everyone's head to such disastrous effect.

Peace. ;-)

The thing is cally that you are doing exactly what you say the ardent feminists do, you imply that its the poor old men who suffer because of the evil women. They say that its the poor old women who suffer because of the evil men. Both are totally out of proportion to the truth. A tiny number of women, the man haters, treat men badly, as a tiny number of men, the women haters, do the same, but most of us care about bad behaviour of all types towards anyone regardless of their sex.

[JohnDB]

Thats a flat out misrepresentation of the truth Chosenone.

[JohnDB]

What Cally and others have shown with facts and data showing the effects of those facts is that ONE group of people has a tendency to abuse unnatural power over others...simply because they can.

We, in the past, have gone to war and killed millions of people to keep this keep kind of evil in check. Nazis come to mind.

And yet you wish to belittle Cally for pointing out the injustice?

What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?

[DaveW]

What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?

Not necessarily.  Keith (Asher) Intrater used to preach "Word of Faith" concepts where ever he went.  Then someone accused him of abusing that teaching for his own enrichment. (which he was NOT doing) He then looked into the practices of many of the well known WOF preachers and was APALLED at how they applied that teaching. To him it was unthinkable.

My point is that perhaps in Chosen's experience she never came across that kind of abuse; so to her that concept may also be unthinkable.

[MeMyself]

What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?

Oh.my.gosh.

There are lots of other conclusions to come to...

perhaps they don't have the same world view, perhaps they just simply disagree, perhaps this subject triggers hurts from their own past due to abusive persons.

I can see both sides of this.  As a mother of both sons and daughters and a dh who is employed as a teacher, I can see there is an imbalance of power in the public school systems and it is to the favor of females.
However, I do believe there are some who are easily swallowing the "girl power" thing because of abuse done to them.

It is a very sad subject.

[MeMyself]

My point is that perhaps in Chosen's experience she never came across that kind of abuse; so to her that concept may also be unthinkable.

Exactly.   

[Cally]

My point is that perhaps in Chosen's experience she never came across that kind of abuse; so to her that concept may also be unthinkable.

That is possible. However, she is also proving stubborn to getting herself enlightened for the sake of the subject at hand, reason morally in terms of principle versus reaction (inexcusable, such as her attitude that men's right to due process shouldn't be protected), and she is also misrepresenting what I say. She is free to ignore the topic entirely--she has every right to do that. But slandering me (and others involved) is not okay--all the reasons indicating that that's exactly what she's doing are right here on the table in full view, regardless of her reasons.

[Cally]

I can see both sides of this.  As a mother of both sons and daughters and a dh who is employed as a teacher, I can see there is an imbalance of power in the public school systems and it is to the favor of females.
However, I do believe there are some who are easily swallowing the "girl power" thing because of abuse done to them.

It is a very sad subject.

The saddest part: there are too many people not being a part of the solution: either those who purposefully part of the problem, see the problem and are not motivated to help (even when it hits close to home), and traditionalists who have the gall to show up and then say "where have all the good men gone?" Griping at men's underperformance as if men were but malfunctioning appliances.

It has to be stopped.  It's a downward spiral, it's a dirty job, but it has to be done for everyone's sake.

Note that my original rebuke in this thread was toward traditionalists, and I was actually envisioning those individuals being men more than women: STOP acting like cowards who gripe about a problem (men's underperformance in an area) without even having the courage so much as to acknowledge the forces acting on it.\


Edit to MeMyself:

MeMyself, regardless of chosenone's personal experience, there is no excuse for her believing men shouldn't have the right to due process. No excuse. That indicates a lack of respect for men's personhood, and no lack of experience can excuse that.

Also inexcusable is her incessant misrepresentation of what I have said (ironically, that's her false accusation and slander of me).

Please show some moral integrity and call this out--or at least don't get in the way of someone who IS calling her out. I think you know better.

[chosenone]

What Cally and others have shown with facts and data showing the effects of those facts is that ONE group of people has a tendency to abuse unnatural power over others...simply because they can.

We, in the past, have gone to war and killed millions of people to keep this keep kind of evil in check. Nazis come to mind.

And yet you wish to belittle Cally for pointing out the injustice?

What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?

Being that you also have a downer on women in general,  I am not surprised by that crazy and bizarre remark. 

I see a small percentage of men and women acting as Cally describes. I see the majority not like that at all. We can all tell of examples that we know of, or have read about, that speak of terrible behaviour from men to women and women to men, but to go on and on about it, and imply that its the majority who act like that just isnt true.  Its hardly what God would want surely,  the constant attacking of the behaviour of one sex or the other on a Christian forum??

[Cally]

imply that its the majority who act like that just isnt true.

Slander, slander, slander. That's exactly what you are doing. I repeated and repeated that a small (as far as we can tell) percentage of women ABUSE an unjust amount of power they have over men, but the majority appear to support those women having the ABILITY to use that power.

You showed yourself opposed to the protection of men's right to due process. YOU showed yourself to be included in the problem.

[chosenone]

What that tells me is that most likely you are a perpetrator of this kind of abuse and wish to continue abusing others...what other conclusion should we come to?

Not necessarily.  Keith (Asher) Intrater used to preach "Word of Faith" concepts where ever he went.  Then someone accused him of abusing that teaching for his own enrichment. (which he was NOT doing) He then looked into the practices of many of the well known WOF preachers and was APALLED at how they applied that teaching. To him it was unthinkable.

My point is that perhaps in Chosen's experience she never came across that kind of abuse; so to her that concept may also be unthinkable.

I have come across several cases of severe abuse(what I call REAL abuse)in families.
I have seen a small number of women act very badly towards men(including my husbands ex)and a small number of men act very badly towards women, and sadly several dads act terribly towards their children, but again its the minority who do this thank God, and constantly bringing such things up as a way of putting one sex down, or implying that its the majority who act this way, is very unhelpful for everyone.   

[chosenone]

imply that its the majority who act like that just isnt true.

Slander, slander, slander. That's exactly what you are doing. I repeated and repeated that a small (as far as we can tell) percentage of women ABUSE an unjust amount of power they have over men, but the majority appear to support those women having the ABILITY to use that power.

You showed yourself opposed to the protection of men's right to due process. YOU showed yourself to be included in the problem.

I hate to see anyone abused, but its not a thing that is confined to one sex against the other, and should never be  implied that it is. In fact I have seen far more serious abuse perpetrated by men on women and children, but if I were to go on and on about these terrible men who do terrible things all the time who would that help? Certainly not anyone on this forum. 

[Cally]

I hate to see anyone abused, but its not a thing that is confined to one sex against the other, and should never be  implied that it is. In fact I have seen far more serious abuse perpetrated by men on women and children, but if I were to go on and on about these terrible men who do terrible things all the time who would that help? Certainly not anyone on this forum.

You are STILL slandering me. How long must I endure this?

But go on, keep demonstrating that fully grown adult women can reason like pre-teen girls and CAUSE these very problems and injustices men suffer, while I make the mental exercise that not all women are like YOU.

In all honesty, that may be an insult to pre-teen girls, in which case I apologize.

[Alan]

I fully understand and accept that chosenone has not had the experiences portrayed in this thread enter into her life, but for myself, I have lived them and have witnessed countless testimonies of women acting in dominant roles and using their sexuality for personal gain    I certainly don't think this thread is aimed at a repetitious personal opinion, I think this type of behaviour needs to be exposed and we as Christians, knowing how God wishes us to live in perfect relational balance and alignment should be the first people to reject unGodly behaviour in our relationships.

[Cally]

I fully understand and accept that chosenone has not had the experiences portrayed in this thread enter into her life, but for myself, I have lived them and have witnessed countless testimonies of women acting in dominant roles and using their sexuality for personal gain    I certainly don't think this thread is aimed at a repetitious personal opinion, I think this type of behaviour needs to be exposed and we as Christians, knowing how God wishes us to live in perfect relational balance and alignment should be the first people to reject unGodly behaviour in our relationships.

Yep, and there's no way it can happen if we pull punches in so doing. Plus, it's best to nip problems like that BEFORE they get this bad, isn't it? We made a mistake before letting it get this bad, didn't we? Let's learn and fight it pull-no-punches.

Discernment yes--the kind chosenone is not figuring out, whether "most" women are child abusers or false accusers or whatever (not that it's easy to make that kind of claim without infinite knowledge, but the point is that's not the focus or claim of the discussion). But not in showing restraint.

[MeMyself]

Edit to MeMyself:
Please show some moral integrity and call this out--or at least don't get in the way of someone who IS calling her out. I think you know better.

With all due respect, Cally...there was no calling out going on in the post I responded to...that is NOT what was going on.

[Cally]

that is NOT what was going on.

Your take is strangely different, but I'll drop it.

[chosenone]

I fully understand and accept that chosenone has not had the experiences portrayed in this thread enter into her life, but for myself, I have lived them and have witnessed countless testimonies of women acting in dominant roles and using their sexuality for personal gain    I certainly don't think this thread is aimed at a repetitious personal opinion, I think this type of behaviour needs to be exposed and we as Christians, knowing how God wishes us to live in perfect relational balance and alignment should be the first people to reject unGodly behaviour in our relationships.

I very much have had that experience Alan,  but I have equally had the experience of having known countless lovely godly women(by far the majority) who would never act that way. Even more so, I have had the experience of men I know acting far worse, including three families where there was serious sexual/physical abuse of the spouse and/or children. In all three cases I was instrumental in helping to get those poor children away from terrible abuse.(all three men by the way were supposedly Christian). 
Would it be helpful for me to come here time and time again and tell of such stories about the terrible abusive men who are around? Or would it be more helpful that I understand that the majority of men are not like that and to get things in the right balance and perspective?

[Cally]

Would it be helpful for me to come here time and time again and tell of such stories about the terrible abusive men who are around?

Which is not what I was doing. Stop slandering me.

[chosenone]

I hate to see anyone abused, but its not a thing that is confined to one sex against the other, and should never be  implied that it is. In fact I have seen far more serious abuse perpetrated by men on women and children, but if I were to go on and on about these terrible men who do terrible things all the time who would that help? Certainly not anyone on this forum.

You are STILL slandering me. How long must I endure this?

But go on, keep demonstrating that fully grown adult women can reason like pre-teen girls and CAUSE these very problems and injustices men suffer, while I make the mental exercise that not all women are like YOU.

In all honesty, that may be an insult to pre-teen girls, in which case I apologize.

cally anyone who reads your last 50-100 posts, will see that you appear fixated on this issue and that you seem to have a problem with women in general, so much so, that you say you dont want to get married because you are afraid of what a wife may do to you. Is that how God really wants you to be? Living in fear of marriage and women? Is it healthy for a Christian guy to be so out of balance on this one thing ? Honestly I have never heard a single Christian man ever speak this way about women, even those like my husband who actually have reason to feel this way if anyone does.
I think this is all very sad, and I think that God may well want to get you into the right balance about all this.