Should Christians have a devotion to Mary?

[DaveW]

You're also forgetting that Mary herself died, and to this day Mary, as old bones, is in her grave.

Not according to catholic tradition.  She was taken up directly to heaven according to the tradion.

http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/the-assumption-of-mary
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/AOFMARY.HTM
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm

[Catholica]

Protoevangelium of James?  Surely you know that the Catholic Church rejects and condemns this work and calls it fiction.   
.

No I didn't know that! Evidence?

[winsome]

Protoevangelium of James?  Surely you know that the Catholic Church rejects and condemns this work and calls it fiction.   
.

No I didn't know that! Evidence?

Evidence!!

Only HelenKeller, Dave & Free Christian give evidence to back up their claims.

[winsome]

Mathew 12 v 47 and Mark 6 v 3. Pretty clear Mary had other children.

Neither verse says that Mary had other children.

[Alan]

Matthew henry provides good commentary on this matter (Matthew 12:47) as well as points out in Luke 2:49 how His mother was obviously clueless to His divinity and the purpose for His being.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12%3A47-50&version=NIV

[winsome]

At least the OP didn't mention the "virgin Mary." I always get a kick out of that one as the Holy Bible is perfectly clear insomuch that Mary and Joseph had children after knowing each other sexually, and repeatedly, on their bed of marriage.

After this blatent diversion shall we get back to the topic?

Saint Louis DeMontfort has this to say about Mary and why we should have a devotion to her:


"Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God and he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself. "
 
"She is the glorious Mother of God the Son who chose to humble and conceal her during her lifetime in order to foster her humility.""

"God the Father gave his only Son to the world only through Mary."
 
"The Son of God became man for our salvation but only in Mary and through Mary."

"God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus Christ in Mary but only after having asked her consent."

"God the Father imparted to Mary his fruitfulness as far as a mere creature was capable of receiving it, to enable her to bring forth his Son and all the members of his mystical body."

"God the Son came into her virginal womb as a new Adam into his earthly paradise, to take his delight there and produce hidden wonders of grace."

"God-made-man found freedom in imprisoning himself in her womb. He displayed power in allowing himself to be borne by this young maiden."

"He found his glory and that of his Father in hiding his splendors from all creatures here below and revealing them only to Mary."

"He glorified his independence and his majesty in depending upon this lovable virgin in his conception, his birth, his presentation in the temple, and in the thirty years of his hidden life."

"Even at his death she had to be present so that he might be united with her in one sacrifice and be immolated with her consent to the eternal Father, just as formerly Isaac was offered in sacrifice by Abraham when he accepted the will of God."

"It was Mary who nursed him, fed him, cared for him, reared him, and sacrificed him for us."

"If we examine closely the remainder of the life of Jesus Christ, we see that he chose to begin his miracles through Mary. It was by her word that he sanctified Saint John the Baptist in the womb of his mother, Saint Elizabeth; no sooner had Mary spoken than John was sanctified. This was his first and greatest miracle of grace."

"At the wedding in Cana he changed water into wine at her humble prayer, and this was his first miracle in the order of nature."

"God the Holy Spirit, who does not produce any divine person, became fruitful through Mary whom he espoused. It was with her, in her and of her that he produced his masterpiece, God-made-man"

[chosenone]

At least the OP didn't mention the "virgin Mary." I always get a kick out of that one as the Holy Bible is perfectly clear insomuch that Mary and Joseph had children after knowing each other sexually, and repeatedly, on their bed of marriage.

After this blatent diversion shall we get back to the topic?

Saint Louis DeMontfort has this to say about Mary and why we should have a devotion to her:


"Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God and he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself. "
 
"She is the glorious Mother of God the Son who chose to humble and conceal her during her lifetime in order to foster her humility.""

"God the Father gave his only Son to the world only through Mary."
 
"The Son of God became man for our salvation but only in Mary and through Mary."

"God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus Christ in Mary but only after having asked her consent."

"God the Father imparted to Mary his fruitfulness as far as a mere creature was capable of receiving it, to enable her to bring forth his Son and all the members of his mystical body."

"God the Son came into her virginal womb as a new Adam into his earthly paradise, to take his delight there and produce hidden wonders of grace."

"God-made-man found freedom in imprisoning himself in her womb. He displayed power in allowing himself to be borne by this young maiden."

"He found his glory and that of his Father in hiding his splendors from all creatures here below and revealing them only to Mary."

"He glorified his independence and his majesty in depending upon this lovable virgin in his conception, his birth, his presentation in the temple, and in the thirty years of his hidden life."

"Even at his death she had to be present so that he might be united with her in one sacrifice and be immolated with her consent to the eternal Father, just as formerly Isaac was offered in sacrifice by Abraham when he accepted the will of God."

"It was Mary who nursed him, fed him, cared for him, reared him, and sacrificed him for us."

"If we examine closely the remainder of the life of Jesus Christ, we see that he chose to begin his miracles through Mary. It was by her word that he sanctified Saint John the Baptist in the womb of his mother, Saint Elizabeth; no sooner had Mary spoken than John was sanctified. This was his first and greatest miracle of grace."

"At the wedding in Cana he changed water into wine at her humble prayer, and this was his first miracle in the order of nature."

"God the Holy Spirit, who does not produce any divine person, became fruitful through Mary whom he espoused. It was with her, in her and of her that he produced his masterpiece, God-made-man"

Should we go by the opinions of a mere man, or by what The Bible says? The NT actually hasnt much mention of Mary except for a few occasions, and when Jesus was told that his mother and BROTHERS were at the door, he deliberately played down his family ties stating that we are ALL His family. He never made her out to be more that she is, a normal women entrusted with a special task, a married lady who had children and sex with her God given husband, and a sinner in need of a saviour just as we all are.

[chosenone]

Mathew 12 v 47 and Mark 6 v 3. Pretty clear Mary had other children.

Neither verse says that Mary had other children.

Well his brothers are mentioned, and baring bareness, women who have regular sex with their husbands(as Mary would have done in obedience to God as a godly lady) usually do have children, and in those days often several children.

[winsome]

chosenone,

As a Moderator are you supporting this blatent "thread hijacking" from the OP in contravention of Rule 2.3?

Peace Warrior actually said 'At least the OP didn't mention the "virgin Mary."'

[winsome]

Getting back to the topic again - which is devotion to Mary and not whether she had children or not:

Saint Louis DeMontfort has this to say about Mary and why we should have a devotion to her:


"Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God and he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself. "
 
"She is the glorious Mother of God the Son who chose to humble and conceal her during her lifetime in order to foster her humility.""

"God the Father gave his only Son to the world only through Mary."
 
"The Son of God became man for our salvation but only in Mary and through Mary."

"God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus Christ in Mary but only after having asked her consent."

"God the Father imparted to Mary his fruitfulness as far as a mere creature was capable of receiving it, to enable her to bring forth his Son and all the members of his mystical body."

"God the Son came into her virginal womb as a new Adam into his earthly paradise, to take his delight there and produce hidden wonders of grace."

"God-made-man found freedom in imprisoning himself in her womb. He displayed power in allowing himself to be borne by this young maiden."

"He found his glory and that of his Father in hiding his splendors from all creatures here below and revealing them only to Mary."

"He glorified his independence and his majesty in depending upon this lovable virgin in his conception, his birth, his presentation in the temple, and in the thirty years of his hidden life."

"Even at his death she had to be present so that he might be united with her in one sacrifice and be immolated with her consent to the eternal Father, just as formerly Isaac was offered in sacrifice by Abraham when he accepted the will of God."

"It was Mary who nursed him, fed him, cared for him, reared him, and sacrificed him for us."

"If we examine closely the remainder of the life of Jesus Christ, we see that he chose to begin his miracles through Mary. It was by her word that he sanctified Saint John the Baptist in the womb of his mother, Saint Elizabeth; no sooner had Mary spoken than John was sanctified. This was his first and greatest miracle of grace."

"At the wedding in Cana he changed water into wine at her humble prayer, and this was his first miracle in the order of nature."

"God the Holy Spirit, who does not produce any divine person, became fruitful through Mary whom he espoused. It was with her, in her and of her that he produced his masterpiece, God-made-man"

[MeMyself]

Getting back to the topic again - which is devotion to Mary and not whether she had children or not:

Saint Louis DeMontfort has this to say about Mary and why we should have a devotion to her:


"Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God and he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself. "
 
"She is the glorious Mother of God the Son who chose to humble and conceal her during her lifetime in order to foster her humility.""

"God the Father gave his only Son to the world only through Mary."
 
"The Son of God became man for our salvation but only in Mary and through Mary."

"God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus Christ in Mary but only after having asked her consent."

"God the Father imparted to Mary his fruitfulness as far as a mere creature was capable of receiving it, to enable her to bring forth his Son and all the members of his mystical body."

"God the Son came into her virginal womb as a new Adam into his earthly paradise, to take his delight there and produce hidden wonders of grace."

"God-made-man found freedom in imprisoning himself in her womb. He displayed power in allowing himself to be borne by this young maiden."

"He found his glory and that of his Father in hiding his splendors from all creatures here below and revealing them only to Mary."

"He glorified his independence and his majesty in depending upon this lovable virgin in his conception, his birth, his presentation in the temple, and in the thirty years of his hidden life."

"Even at his death she had to be present so that he might be united with her in one sacrifice and be immolated with her consent to the eternal Father, just as formerly Isaac was offered in sacrifice by Abraham when he accepted the will of God."

"It was Mary who nursed him, fed him, cared for him, reared him, and sacrificed him for us."

"If we examine closely the remainder of the life of Jesus Christ, we see that he chose to begin his miracles through Mary. It was by her word that he sanctified Saint John the Baptist in the womb of his mother, Saint Elizabeth; no sooner had Mary spoken than John was sanctified. This was his first and greatest miracle of grace."

"At the wedding in Cana he changed water into wine at her humble prayer, and this was his first miracle in the order of nature."

"God the Holy Spirit, who does not produce any divine person, became fruitful through Mary whom he espoused. It was with her, in her and of her that he produced his masterpiece, God-made-man"

There are a lot of *really* troubling thoughts in this list of all of Mary's credentials:

"Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God"
"The Son of God became man for our salvation but only in Mary and through Mary."
"God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus Christ in Mary but only after having asked her consent."
"It was Mary who nursed him, fed him, cared for him, reared him, and sacrificed him for us."

Just the major ones...this is putting Mary up *as if* she is as great or even greater that God. 

[winsome]

Getting back to the topic again - which is devotion to Mary and not whether she had children or not:

Saint Louis DeMontfort has this to say about Mary and why we should have a devotion to her:


"Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God and he has reserved the knowledge and possession of her for himself. "
 
"She is the glorious Mother of God the Son who chose to humble and conceal her during her lifetime in order to foster her humility.""

"God the Father gave his only Son to the world only through Mary."
 
"The Son of God became man for our salvation but only in Mary and through Mary."

"God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus Christ in Mary but only after having asked her consent."

"God the Father imparted to Mary his fruitfulness as far as a mere creature was capable of receiving it, to enable her to bring forth his Son and all the members of his mystical body."

"God the Son came into her virginal womb as a new Adam into his earthly paradise, to take his delight there and produce hidden wonders of grace."

"God-made-man found freedom in imprisoning himself in her womb. He displayed power in allowing himself to be borne by this young maiden."

"He found his glory and that of his Father in hiding his splendors from all creatures here below and revealing them only to Mary."

"He glorified his independence and his majesty in depending upon this lovable virgin in his conception, his birth, his presentation in the temple, and in the thirty years of his hidden life."

"Even at his death she had to be present so that he might be united with her in one sacrifice and be immolated with her consent to the eternal Father, just as formerly Isaac was offered in sacrifice by Abraham when he accepted the will of God."

"It was Mary who nursed him, fed him, cared for him, reared him, and sacrificed him for us."

"If we examine closely the remainder of the life of Jesus Christ, we see that he chose to begin his miracles through Mary. It was by her word that he sanctified Saint John the Baptist in the womb of his mother, Saint Elizabeth; no sooner had Mary spoken than John was sanctified. This was his first and greatest miracle of grace."

"At the wedding in Cana he changed water into wine at her humble prayer, and this was his first miracle in the order of nature."

"God the Holy Spirit, who does not produce any divine person, became fruitful through Mary whom he espoused. It was with her, in her and of her that he produced his masterpiece, God-made-man"

There are a lot of *really* troubling thoughts in this list of all of Mary's credentials:

"Mary is the supreme masterpiece of Almighty God"
"The Son of God became man for our salvation but only in Mary and through Mary."
"God the Holy Spirit formed Jesus Christ in Mary but only after having asked her consent."
"It was Mary who nursed him, fed him, cared for him, reared him, and sacrificed him for us."

Just the major ones...this is putting Mary up *as if* she is as great or even greater that God. 

Thank you for responding

If Mary is the supreme masterpiece of God then how can she be as great or greater than God?


Did not the Son of God become man in the womb of Mary (though Mary)?

Did the Son of God become man in a womb other than Mary's?

Did not God ask for her consent or did he force Mary to become the mother of Jesus?

Did Mary not nurse Jesus when he was a baby? Did she not feed him? Did she not care for him? Did she not rear him?

Simeon said to Mary "and you yourself a sword will pierce" (Lk 2:25). Was bearing and rearing a Son whom she knew would die a horrible death not a sacrifice?

I cannot see how any of the quotations you note suggest Mary is as great or greater than God.

[chosenone]

chosenone,

As a Moderator are you supporting this blatent "thread hijacking" from the OP in contravention of Rule 2.3?

Peace Warrior actually said 'At least the OP didn't mention the "virgin Mary."'

The wrong teaching and beliefs about Mary are all connected.

[MeMyself]

Thank you for responding

If Mary is the supreme masterpiece of God then how can she be as great or greater than God?

Well, it seems to me, that as Christians, who are Christ followers, we would see that Christ was the supreme masterpiece of God.

Did not the Son of God become man in the womb of Mary (though Mary)?

Did the Son of God become man in a womb other than Mary's?

Did not God ask for her consent or did he force Mary to become the mother of Jesus?

God did not ask for her consent.  He is GOD, she is human. 
Luke 1:30 The angel told her,

"Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God.
31 You will become pregnant, give birth to a son,
    and name him Jesus.
32 He will be a great man
    and will be called the Son of the Most High.
The Lord God will give him
    the throne of his ancestor David.
33 Your son will be king of Jacob's people forever,
    and his kingdom will never end.

Did Mary not nurse Jesus when he was a baby? Did she not feed him? Did she not care for him? Did she not rear him?

These were not what I highlighted as concerning...however any mother does that for her child.  Its not some special thing she did for her baby.  Don't get me wrong, I like Mary, I look forward to talking with her over coffee in Heaven, but she was a mama just like the rest of us who have given birth or raised a child.  Only, her first born son WAS perfect, while the rest of us only suspect our babies are. 

Simeon said to Mary "and you yourself a sword will pierce" (Lk 2:25). Was bearing and rearing a Son whom she knew would die a horrible death not a sacrifice?

Sure...a great hardship she faced that day, but NOWHERE in the bible is what Christ did described as Mary's sacrifice.
The sacrifice was God's and Christ's. Mary was the vehicle, her heartache real when Christ went to the cross and died, but her role should NOT be elevated to that of it being *her* sacrifice..

I cannot see how any of the quotations you note suggest Mary is as great or greater than God.

Well, maybe now you can

[winsome]

 

Thank you for responding
 
  If Mary is the supreme masterpiece of God then how can she be as great or greater than God?

Well, it seems to me, that as Christians, who are Christ followers, we would see that Christ was the supreme masterpiece of God.

Do you see Jesus as a mere creature, created by God?
 
 

Did not the Son of God become man in the womb of Mary (though Mary)?
 
Did the Son of God become man in a womb other than Mary's?
 
Did not God ask for her consent or did he force Mary to become the mother of Jesus?

God did not ask for her consent.  He is GOD, she is human. 
Luke 1:30 The angel told her,

"Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God.
31 You will become pregnant, give birth to a son,
     and name him Jesus.
32 He will be a great man
     and will be called the Son of the Most High.
The Lord God will give him
     the throne of his ancestor David.
33 Your son will be king of Jacob's people forever,
     and his kingdom will never end.

Are you serious?

Is it really your opinion that God effectively raped May by impregnating her without her consent?

Was Mary's "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." pointless?

 

Did Mary not nurse Jesus when he was a baby? Did she not feed him? Did she not care for him? Did she not rear him?

These were not what I highlighted as concerning...however any mother does that for her child.  Its not some special thing she did for her baby.  Don't get me wrong, I like Mary, I look forward to talking with her over coffee in Heaven, but she was a mama just like the rest of us who have given birth or raised a child.  Only, her first born son WAS perfect, while the rest of us only suspect our babies are. 

Actually they were what you highlighted. Out of 15 quotes you quoted 4 of which this was one of them. If it did not concern you them why quote it and say of the four they were "Just the major ones" ?
 

Simeon said to Mary "and you yourself a sword will pierce" (Lk 2:25). Was bearing and rearing a Son whom she knew would die a horrible death not a sacrifice?

Sure...a great hardship she faced that day, but NOWHERE in the bible is what Christ did described as Mary's sacrifice.
The sacrifice was God's and Christ's. Mary was the vehicle, her heartache real when Christ went to the cross and died, but her role should NOT be elevated to that of it being *her* sacrifice..

What SHE did and suffered is her sacrifice. It is not to be compared to Christ's sacrifice. That is not suggested.

 

I cannot see how any of the quotations you note suggest Mary is as great or greater than God.

Well, maybe now you can

No. I see nowhere is Mary made as great as or greater than God.

[MeMyself]

Thank you for responding
 
  If Mary is the supreme masterpiece of God then how can she be as great or greater than God?

Well, it seems to me, that as Christians, who are Christ followers, we would see that Christ was the supreme masterpiece of God.

Do you see Jesus as a mere creature, created by God?

I see Him as the supreme masterpiece of God.  He is God in flesh...how can anyone else even compare?  They can't.
 

Did not the Son of God become man in the womb of Mary (though Mary)?
 
Did the Son of God become man in a womb other than Mary's?
 
Did not God ask for her consent or did he force Mary to become the mother of Jesus?

God did not ask for her consent.  He is GOD, she is human. 
Luke 1:30 The angel told her,

"Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God.
31 You will become pregnant, give birth to a son,
     and name him Jesus.
32 He will be a great man
     and will be called the Son of the Most High.
The Lord God will give him
     the throne of his ancestor David.
33 Your son will be king of Jacob's people forever,
     and his kingdom will never end.

Are you serious?

Is it really your opinion that God effectively raped May by impregnating her without her consent?

Was Mary's "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." pointless?

You read the scripture.  I didn't say it.  God's messenger said "You will become pregnant". It was a fact.  God didn't say "If its ok with you, you will become pregnant."  Obviously He knew Mary would obey, but He didn't ask her permission to ok His will be done.

 

Did Mary not nurse Jesus when he was a baby? Did she not feed him? Did she not care for him? Did she not rear him?

These were not what I highlighted as concerning...however any mother does that for her child.  Its not some special thing she did for her baby.  Don't get me wrong, I like Mary, I look forward to talking with her over coffee in Heaven, but she was a mama just like the rest of us who have given birth or raised a child.  Only, her first born son WAS perfect, while the rest of us only suspect our babies are. 

Actually they were what you highlighted. Out of 15 quotes you quoted 4 of which this was one of them. If it did not concern you them why quote it and say of the four they were "Just the major ones" ?

Ah, I see where I should have edited my concerns better.  My concern was over the "she sacrificed him for us" comment.
 

Simeon said to Mary "and you yourself a sword will pierce" (Lk 2:25). Was bearing and rearing a Son whom she knew would die a horrible death not a sacrifice?

Sure...a great hardship she faced that day, but NOWHERE in the bible is what Christ did described as Mary's sacrifice.
The sacrifice was God's and Christ's. Mary was the vehicle, her heartache real when Christ went to the cross and died, but her role should NOT be elevated to that of it being *her* sacrifice..

What SHE did and suffered is her sacrifice. It is not to be compared to Christ's sacrifice. That is not suggested.

What IS suggested is that the sacrifice of her son was the great sacrifice...God's sacrifice is not even mentioned.  THAT is/was the great sacrifice. 

I cannot see how any of the quotations you note suggest Mary is as great or greater than God.

Well, maybe now you can

No. I see nowhere is Mary made as great as or greater than God.

Ok.  Blessings to you.

[winsome]

 

 

 

  Thank you for responding
   
   If Mary is the supreme masterpiece of God then how can she be as great or greater than God?

  Well, it seems to me, that as Christians, who are Christ followers, we would see that Christ was the supreme masterpiece of God.

  Do you see Jesus as a mere creature, created by God?

I see Him as the supreme masterpiece of God.  He is God in flesh...how can anyone else even compare?  They can't.

He cannot be compared but he is not a creature. God did not create the Second Person of the Trinity. He is begotten not made. How can he then be a masterpiece?
   

 

 

Did not the Son of God become man in the womb of Mary (though Mary)?
   
  Did the Son of God become man in a womb other than Mary's?
   
  Did not God ask for her consent or did he force Mary to become the mother of Jesus?

  God did not ask for her consent.  He is GOD, she is human. 
  Luke 1:30 The angel told her,
 
  "Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God.
  31 You will become pregnant, give birth to a son,
      and name him Jesus.
  32 He will be a great man
      and will be called the Son of the Most High.
  The Lord God will give him
      the throne of his ancestor David.
  33 Your son will be king of Jacob's people forever,
      and his kingdom will never end.

Are you serious?
 
Is it really your opinion that God effectively raped May by impregnating her without her consent?
 
Was Mary's "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." pointless?

You read the scripture.  I didn't say it.  God's messenger said "You will become pregnant". It was a fact.  God didn't say "If its ok with you, you will become pregnant."  Obviously He knew Mary would obey, but He didn't ask her permission to ok His will be done.

God never forces people. We have free will. Yes God knew that Mary would freely submit to his will but that does not mean she had no choice and that the choice was not given her.

Gabriel' message to her is a parallel to that given to Zechariah - ^"...your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth...." Etc. Zechariah could have refused to go along with God's plan and not have intercourse with Elizabeth.
 

   

 

Did Mary not nurse Jesus when he was a baby? Did she not feed him? Did she not care for him? Did she not rear him?

  These were not what I highlighted as concerning...however any mother does that for her child.  Its not some special thing she did for her baby.  Don't get me wrong, I like Mary, I look forward to talking with her over coffee in Heaven, but she was a mama just like the rest of us who have given birth or raised a child.  Only, her first born son WAS perfect, while the rest of us only suspect our babies are. 

Actually they were what you highlighted. Out of 15 quotes you quoted 4 of which this was one of them. If it did not concern you them why quote it and say of the four they were "Just the major ones" ?

Ah, I see where I should have edited my concerns better.  My concern was over the "she sacrificed him for us" comment.
   
 

 

Simeon said to Mary "and you yourself a sword will pierce" (Lk 2:25). Was bearing and rearing a Son whom she knew would die a horrible death not a sacrifice?

Sure...a great hardship she faced that day, but NOWHERE in the bible is what Christ did described as Mary's sacrifice.
  The sacrifice was God's and Christ's. Mary was the vehicle, her heartache real when Christ went to the cross and died, but her role should NOT be elevated to that of it being *her* sacrifice..

What SHE did and suffered is her sacrifice. It is not to be compared to Christ's sacrifice. That is not suggested.

What IS suggested is that the sacrifice of her son was the great sacrifice...God's sacrifice is not even mentioned.  THAT is/was the great sacrifice. 

I don't think that is suggested. I think it is just the way you are reading it.
 

 

I cannot see how any of the quotations you note suggest Mary is as great or greater than God.
 

  Well, maybe now you can
 

No. I see nowhere is Mary made as great as or greater than God.

Ok.  Blessings to you.

One other point. You said

"...however any mother does that for her child.  Its not some special thing she did for her baby.  Don't get me wrong, I like Mary, I look forward to talking with her over coffee in Heaven, but she was a mama just like the rest of us who have given birth or raised a child."

The problem I see with this (and those who make similar comments about Mary) is that it some close to denigrating Jesus. It makes him out to be just a child like any other; just a great bloke like any other.

Mary was chosen and ordained to serve in the mystery of the Incarnation in a unique way. She was set apart and given a unique privilege and position. She was given a unique relationship with God even before the Incarnation and a unique role in the salvation of mankind.

She was chosen by the Father to bear His only begotten Son. In that role, Mary is the first person in all history to receive and accept Christ as her Saviour. You and I are called to enthrone the Lord in our hearts and lives - to follow her example in doing so. Early in Christian history she is called "the first of the redeemed".

Mary holds her unique position and has a "category of her own" not as a mere Virgin, but as the Virgin-Mother, parthenomitir, as the predestined Mother of the Lord..

Mary was the Mother of God (Theotokos – God bearer), "the mother of my Lord" as Elizabeth put it, and the mother our Lord who we are told "from now on will all ages call me blessed."

At the annunciation Mary was told that "the power of the Most High will overshadow you". The Greek word for overshadow is episkiazein, which is the same word used in ancient Greek translations of the OT to describe the cloud of God overshadowing the tabernacle at Mount Sinai (e.g. Ex 40:35 ). So Gabriel is indicating that Mary will be a new tabernacle, a new vessel of God's holy presence, a new temple.

Her womb is a sacred vessel, made sacred by the overshadowing and the presence of God himself. Sacred vessels are not to be profaned. Remember what happened to King Belshazzar in Daniel 5 when he profaned sacred vessels.

Mary is the new "Ark of the Covenant" (Rev 11:19) as seen by John.

Mary is the mother of "those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus" (Rev 12:17).

What I'm trying to get across is that Mary is unique as a creature of God. She was carefully prepared and her role did not stop at just giving birth to and bringing up Jesus. Her being "ever-virgin" is not just a physical thing but spiritual or inner attitude. She was totally given over to God. "She ever preserved virginity in mind, and soul, and body" as St. John of Damascus put it. She is not just some nice girl used by God to give birth to Jesus and then discarded.

[MeMyself]

He cannot be compared but he is not a creature. God did not create the Second Person of the Trinity. He is begotten not made. How can he then be a masterpiece?

God the Son WAS fully human, and as such was knit together in His mothers womb.  That is a most glorious creation to me. 

God never forces people. We have free will. Yes God knew that Mary would freely submit to his will but that does not mean she had no choice and that the choice was not given her.

Gabriel' message to her is a parallel to that given to Zechariah - "...your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth...." Etc. Zechariah could have refused to go along with God's plan and not have intercourse with Elizabeth.

God is not a Milquetoast free will God who bows to our whims.  He is sovereign, AND He allows us free will. He doesn't ask our permission, but He also wont force us into submission.  The glory is HIS alone, not Mary's. 

About old Z.  He was struck silent because he doubted God's proclamation. Do you really think he was so dim as to go all the way with refusing to obey? Not me.  He was struck silent and he knew God wasn't playing around, he'd better get in line and obey God's will.

What makes Mary special is that she was entrusted to care for and raise God's Son...but her doing so doesn't make her special, it makes her a good mother.  No denigrating of Jesus at.all.  HE is AWESOME!  But, his awesomeness isn't dependent upon Mary at all.  He was God, after all.

[kensington]

Protoevangelium of James?  Surely you know that the Catholic Church rejects and condemns this work and calls it fiction.   

Evidence?  Sure... " The Church has always rejected it. To this day, the Roman Catholic Church regards it as fraudulent,"

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2012/09/clear-thinking-about-the-protoevangelium-of-james.html[/url]

http://www.acrod.org/readingroom/scripture/protoevangelium

These sights clarify the statements right up front.  And they go on to prove the deception when saying the church teaches it any way. 

But, it is fiction.

I don't appreciate being accused of hijacking the thread when I replied to something to OP posted to begin with.

[winsome]

He cannot be compared but he is not a creature. God did not create the Second Person of the Trinity. He is begotten not made. How can he then be a masterpiece?

God the Son WAS fully human, and as such was knit together in His mothers womb.  That is a most glorious creation to me. 

The person Mary was a creature made by God in time.

The person Jesus Christ, Son of God, Second Person of the Trinity was not. He was begotten not made.

"And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)"
From Rule 6.3 of this forum

God never forces people. We have free will. Yes God knew that Mary would freely submit to his will but that does not mean she had no choice and that the choice was not given her.

Gabriel' message to her is a parallel to that given to Zechariah - "...your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth...." Etc. Zechariah could have refused to go along with God's plan and not have intercourse with Elizabeth.

God is not a Milquetoast free will God who bows to our whims.  He is sovereign, AND He allows us free will. He doesn't ask our permission, but He also wont force us into submission.  The glory is HIS alone, not Mary's. 

About old Z.  He was struck silent because he doubted God's proclamation. Do you really think he was so dim as to go all the way with refusing to obey? Not me.  He was struck silent and he knew God wasn't playing around, he'd better get in line and obey God's will.

God is not a bully and gives everyone free will.

"[God] wills everyone to be saved" (1Tim 2:4) but not everyone is.

What makes Mary special is that she was entrusted to care for and raise God's Son...but her doing so doesn't make her special, it makes her a good mother.

What makes Mary special is all the things that Louis DeMontfort listed and that I listed, and which you have made little effort to address.

  No denigrating of Jesus at.all.  HE is AWESOME!  But, his awesomeness isn't dependent upon Mary at all.  He was God, after all.

He is AWESOME and his awesomeness does not depend on Mary. But then I never suggested it does. Her awesomeness depends on him.

[MeMyself]

He cannot be compared but he is not a creature. God did not create the Second Person of the Trinity. He is begotten not made. How can he then be a masterpiece?

God the Son WAS fully human, and as such was knit together in His mothers womb.  That is a most glorious creation to me. 

The person Mary was a creature made by God in time.

The person Jesus Christ, Son of God, Second Person of the Trinity was not. He was begotten not made.

"And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)"
From Rule 6.3 of this forum

But to walk the earth, to preach and teach and be fully man, to bear the weight of our sin and be the sacrificial Lamb on the cross, His BODY was created, and I say that is the most glorious of God's creation.  God made flesh (John 1:14).

I agree that He always was. He is part of the God-head, but to be also fully HUMAN like He was, He had to be formed in His mothers womb.  There can be no denying of this. God could have just made Him appear, but then He wouldn't have been fully man and fully God. That is all that I am saying.

As to the rest, I don't wish to go round and round.  I stated what made me uncomfortable, and why.  You obviously do not agree, I wish you every blessing.  Happy Friday! 

[Free Christian]

, which is why it is reasonable to send our petitions to her.  Thoughts?

How would one do this unless Mary herself were omniscient or omnipresent, divine attributes of God Himself and no-one else.
To quote Robert Shaw from his Exposition of the Confession of Faith...
"It must import that they are omnipresent and omniscient , for how could the Virgin Mary, for example, otherwise have any knowledge of the prayers which are addressed to her at the same time in ten thousand places, and, it may be, by millions of individuals?"

[winsome]

, which is why it is reasonable to send our petitions to her.  Thoughts?

How would one do this unless Mary herself were omniscient or omnipresent, divine attributes of God Himself and no-one else.
To quote Robert Shaw from his Exposition of the Confession of Faith...
"It must import that they are omnipresent and omniscient , for how could the Virgin Mary, for example, otherwise have any knowledge of the prayers which are addressed to her at the same time in ten thousand places, and, it may be, by millions of individuals?"

Well, we know that those in heaven do know of our prayers.

"When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." (Rev 5:8)

"Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne." (Rev 8:3)

The writer of Hebrews uses the image of running a race with those who have gone before us cheering us on. "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us." (Heb 12:1).

The Greek word used for 'witness' means to give testimony to a judge. What Judge are they giving testimony too? - There can be only one Judge, God Himself, and they are speaking to Him on our behalf.
   
Those in heaven are outside of time. There is no past or present by their perception, just one great present. They are not limited by time in the way we are. They are not omniscient but we believe that it is by God's will that they are allowed to hear our prayers to them. God certainly can enable Mary (and others in heaven) to hear them without their becoming omniscient.

[kensington]

Do you have another scripture to back that up?  Because according to that verse, all we know is that the four living creatures and the twenty four elders were holding bowls, and it does not clarify that they heard the prayers nor that they are interceding at all.  They hold bowls, and they are fallen before the Lord.  The prayers have become incense that rises up to God while they are on their face.  Also, it's Revelation 8, which would indicate it hasn't happened yet.

Also, you mentioned the "great cloud of witnesses"... however that verse also does not indicate they are participants or that they hear our prayers.   Or that they intercede. 

Infact, if you think of how it is at the scene of an accident, when the statements are taken from witnesses, they are those who saw what happened, not those who participated are involved.  They are witness's of what happened to their lives and they cheering for us to make it.  Not prayer answering or praying.

[chosenone]

Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

[winsome]

Do you have another scripture to back that up?  Because according to that verse, all we know is that the four living creatures and the twenty four elders were holding bowls, and it does not clarify that they heard the prayers nor that they are interceding at all.  They hold bowls, and they are fallen before the Lord.  The prayers have become incense that rises up to God while they are on their face.  Also, it's Revelation 8, which would indicate it hasn't happened yet.

Also, you mentioned the "great cloud of witnesses"... however that verse also does not indicate they are participants or that they hear our prayers.   Or that they intercede. 

Infact, if you think of how it is at the scene of an accident, when the statements are taken from witnesses, they are those who saw what happened, not those who participated are involved.  They are witness's of what happened to their lives and they cheering for us to make it.  Not prayer answering or praying.

What is clear is that the elders and an angel they are offering prayers of the saints to God. If they are offering them then they know about them.

There are two other occasions in scripture where prayers are brought before God.

Firstly the angel that appears to Cornelius. "'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God." (Acts 10:31)

Secondly the Angel Raphael says to Tobias "And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One" and then "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One." (Tobit 12: 12&15).

The point about the witnesses is that they are aware of what is happening on earth.

[Alan]

Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

+1
That sums it up quite nicely, to fit Mary into daily devotionals is stretching, formulating, and reworking the simplicity that Christ outlined for us.

[winsome]

Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

[chosenone]

Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.   

[chosenone]

Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

+1
That sums it up quite nicely, to fit Mary into daily devotionals is stretching, formulating, and reworking the simplicity that Christ outlined for us.

The longer I have been a Christian the simpler it all gets.  God mas made it a simple so that even children can understand.   

[winsome]

Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

[Jd34]

I have never prayed or have I devoted anything to Mary, but she must have been pretty special for God to have chosen her. Maybe I should give this some thought .

[MeMyself]

Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

[Jd34]

Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

But what is  wrong with saying an occasional hello to Mary. And what do we pray for anyway? Does prayer always have to be about us ? I pray God was pleased today.

Mary?? Just another sister who knows Christ better than any of us.

[Alan]

Firstly we are told how to pray and who we pray to. Simple.
Second, we are NEVER told to pray to Mary or any other human being. Simple.
Thirdly, do we obey God in His word, or do we make up our own rules? We obey God and do what Jesus told us to do. Simple. 

I honestly cant see the problem, its ALL very simple. Pray to God through Jesus and if that isnt enough for you then I feel sorry for you. To be able to talk to God Himself directly is surely the ultimate for us, so WHY OH WHY do people think that need to pray to dead humans who are themselves waiting for the return of Christ? They can no more hear or answer you or help you than Father Christmas can, and you are not only wasting your time, but you are opening the door to the occult by conversing with the dead.  RATHER YOU THAN ME. 

I'm sure we have been through this many times before.

Pauls asks people to pray for him.
"At the same time pray for us as well....." (Col 4:3)
"Beloved, pray for us." (1Thess 5:25)
"Finally, brothers and sister, pray for us....." (2 Thess 3:1)
Why does Paul not just pray to God himself?


Paul says he prays for others (Col 1:3, Eph 1:16 for example). Why does he not just leave it to them to pray to God themselves?

Ummm MASSIVE difference in praying with and for people who are actually alive, than praying to those who are dead and who cannot hear you and cant do a thing for you.

They are alive in heaven and they can hear us and they can pray for us.

Christ's directions on praying were to God alone.

But what is  wrong with saying an occasional hello to Mary. And what do we pray for anyway? Does prayer always have to be about us ? I pray God was pleased today.

Mary?? Just another sister who knows Christ better than any of us.

Sounds good, but by that logic I should be able to say hello to my deceased father, grandparents, etc...