Messiah v. Christ

[notreligus]

Hebrew comes easy to those who were born into a Jewish family.   If your family was able they probably sent you to six years of Hebrew school (elementary education plus training in Judaism and Hebrew).   If you had the opportunity for advanced education that is great as you can pick up a book written in Hebrew, start at the back of the book and read it with perfect understanding.   That's a great bit of knowledge to possess.   The majority of folk don't have that understanding and wonder why Messianics post either Hebrew names or terms when English has the equivalent so they don't have to pull out a dictionary or concordance to confirm the meanings or equivalents.   Many are obvious and many are not.  Shaul is used for Paul but Shaul is actually an equivalent to Saul, is it not?   Saul's name was changed to Paul.   He became Paul when the Lord gave him the mission to evangelize the whole world and not just the Jews.

Messiah versus Christ:   The only different in the two is language.  Both mean "anointed one."   I notice that Messianics insist on calling the Lord "Messiah."   Others typically call Him the Christ.   According to Stan Telchin in his book, Messianic Judaism Is Not Christianity, Messianics purposely do not call Him Christ as they do not want to be thought of as Christian but as Messianic.   That is a distinctive.   It is a way to be separate from the Gentiles.   Telchin is not the only source.   One only need to look at Messianic web sites or simply read writings or articles by Messianics.   I was exposed to this practice years ago while posting at the Zola Levitt Board.   Zola called himself a Hebrew Christian and worshipped at a Baptist Church.   Messianics flocked to the Zola Board anyway.   Not all of them were so insistent on sticking to Hebrew in everything Bible related, which was in keeping with what Zola did.   I am of the opinion that Zola Levitt was right in the way he conducted himself as a Christian believer.   He did not isolate himself from Jews or Gentiles.     He took part in the One New Man, the Body of Christ, and did not hold himself up as different or superior in any way.   I don't think he was just the model Hebrew but the model Christian. 

In America we can still worship as we please (that seems to be changing), and Messianics are free to worship however they choose.    I don't question that.    I do question the obvious and that is that why do you insist on pointing to your particular faith culture instead of joining with other Christian believers and proclaiming the Gospel as though it is the same Gospel instead of a distinctive message?   

[DaveW]

NR - you have several different points here; each of which may want their own thead here.

Messiah versus Christ:   The only different in the two is language.  Both mean "anointed one."

Close but it is not quite that simple. Christos was as close a fit in Greek to Maschach as was possible, but it was not exact. 

Maschach means anointed by pouring a large amount of oil over the head. See Psalm 133  OTOH, Christos means anointed by dabbing a small amount of oil on the forehead. Greek has no word that describes the other.

According to Stan Telchin in his book, Messianic Judaism Is Not Christianity, Messianics purposely do not call Him Christ as they do not want to be thought of as Christian but as Messianic.   That is a distinctive.   It is a way to be separate from the Gentiles. 

If you had read Mike Brown's book "Our Hands are Stained with Blood," you would see a very different reason. That of the terms "Christ" and "Christian" being associated in standard Jewish culture with the Pogroms of eastern Europe and the Holocaust of Germany. We are trying to work our way around that cultural barrier with the gospel.

I am of the opinion that Zola Levitt was right in the way he conducted himself as a Christian believer.   He did not isolate himself from Jews or Gentiles.     He took part in the One New Man, the Body of Christ, and did not hold himself up as different or superior in any way.

God forbid that we Messianics should isolate ourselves from our Christian brothers.  Indeed, the Tikkun network and our emisaries engage traditional christian churches of many stripes all the time.  We even have a member congregation that is a Pentecostal Holiness church. I accompanied Dan Juster once when he ministered at a Presbyterian congregation.  I have ties to Presbyterian Reform Ministries (a charismatic group) and have made links from them to Tikkun)  We do not hold ourselves as "superior."

I do question the obvious and that is that why do you insist on pointing to your particular faith culture instead of joining with other Christian believers and proclaiming the Gospel as though it is the same Gospel instead of a distinctive message?

There are reasons for that.

One - for the last 1800 (or more) years church doctrine has been filled with replacement (or fulfillment) theology which insists that God is done with the Jews and has moved on.  For any Jew to come to faith he must give up being a Jew.  We believe that to be entirely incorrect.

Two - There are distintive callings and requirements for Jewish believers that differ somewhat from those requirements for Gentile belivers. They are not incompatable any more than the distinct requirements for husbands and wives are incompatable; or parents and children.   By recognizing and honoring those distinctions, we are more in God's purpose in creating those distinctions in the first place: Mutual Blessing.  To deny them is to lose that blessing.

[notreligus]

NR - you have several different points here; each of which may want their own thead here.

Messiah versus Christ:   The only different in the two is language.  Both mean "anointed one."

Close but it is not quite that simple. Christos was as close a fit in Greek to Maschach as was possible, but it was not exact. 

Maschach means anointed by pouring a large amount of oil over the head. See Psalm 133  OTOH, Christos means anointed by dabbing a small amount of oil on the forehead. Greek has no word that describes the other.

According to Stan Telchin in his book, Messianic Judaism Is Not Christianity, Messianics purposely do not call Him Christ as they do not want to be thought of as Christian but as Messianic.   That is a distinctive.   It is a way to be separate from the Gentiles. 

If you had read Mike Brown's book "Our Hands are Stained with Blood," you would see a very different reason. That of the terms "Christ" and "Christian" being associated in standard Jewish culture with the Pogroms of eastern Europe and the Holocaust of Germany. We are trying to work our way around that cultural barrier with the gospel.

I am of the opinion that Zola Levitt was right in the way he conducted himself as a Christian believer.   He did not isolate himself from Jews or Gentiles.     He took part in the One New Man, the Body of Christ, and did not hold himself up as different or superior in any way.

God forbid that we Messianics should isolate ourselves from our Christian brothers.  Indeed, the Tikkun network and our emisaries engage traditional christian churches of many stripes all the time.  We even have a member congregation that is a Pentecostal Holiness church. I accompanied Dan Juster once when he ministered at a Presbyterian congregation.  I have ties to Presbyterian Reform Ministries (a charismatic group) and have made links from them to Tikkun)  We do not hold ourselves as "superior."

I do question the obvious and that is that why do you insist on pointing to your particular faith culture instead of joining with other Christian believers and proclaiming the Gospel as though it is the same Gospel instead of a distinctive message?

There are reasons for that.

One - for the last 1800 (or more) years church doctrine has been filled with replacement (or fulfillment) theology which insists that God is done with the Jews and has moved on.  For any Jew to come to faith he must give up being a Jew.  We believe that to be entirely incorrect.

Two - There are distintive callings and requirements for Jewish believers that differ somewhat from those requirements for Gentile belivers. They are not incompatable any more than the distinct requirements for husbands and wives are incompatable; or parents and children.   By recognizing and honoring those distinctions, we are more in God's purpose in creating those distinctions in the first place: Mutual Blessing.  To deny them is to lose that blessing.

I have the book.

All things I've mentioned here tie together.  I do know how to write and have a lot of experience with writing legal documents for business, plus I've written a lot of technical research papers.   

The early church was severely persecuted by Jews, especially after A.D. 70.  Perhaps you also need to read more history.

You have continually stated in this forum that the New Covenant was for Israel.  I don't agree.   

Are you the appointed spokesperson for Messianics?   I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, but it seems like you are always the first to jump all over anything at this forum related to Messianic Judaism.   I hoped to get some other points of view since there are more Messianics posting here.  I seems like some of them are treating this discussion board like a blog where they just state their views and that's that.  They apparently don't want critiques.   I don't know - I'm just stating how it seems to be.    I have read your opinions many times before, as you have read mine.   It would be nice to get some fresh points-of-view here for a change.   That's what I am hoping for. 

[Red Baker]

One - for the last 1800 (or more) years church doctrine has been filled with replacement (or fulfillment) theology which insists that God is done with the Jews and has moved on. For any Jew to come to faith he must give up being a Jew.  We believe that to be entirely incorrect.

Dave you have that backwards.  The church as been rock solid teaching that the middle wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles has been forever removed; Jesus abolished in his flesh the enmity that stood between us~ that stood in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, and so making peace between us.  God did this that he might reconcile both in ONE BODY, this he did by the cross.  So Paul and others came and preached unto us that were afar off, but first preach to them that were nigh; so that we both Jews and Gentiles have access by one Spirit unto the God of heaven.  We both share in the same promises, both are being built for an habitation of God through the Spirit.  There are no special and separated promises to the natural seed of Abraham.  This is the hidden mystery of the OT, yet clearly revealed by the apostles of Jesus Christ.  Proof texts and there are many, but only a couple for now.  Ephesians 2: 11-3:11; Romans 16:25-27

Only in the last two hundred years or so, have men crept in among the saints and preached a distorted gospel  and blaspheme the purpose of Christ coming into the world, by preaching a postponement kingdom theory, basically teaching that God had to changed his plan and turn to the Gentiles, to help Israel see, and to provoke them to jealously, so as to prepare them to receive Jesus, etc., etc.   So much false doctrine connected to this fabrication by men, untaught of God.   The true children of God, are only those who are children of promise; promised by God to Jesus Christ; children out of every nation under heaven.   

[Shimshon]

One - for the last 1800 (or more) years church doctrine has been filled with replacement (or fulfillment) theology which insists that God is done with the Jews and has moved on. For any Jew to come to faith he must give up being a Jew.  We believe that to be entirely incorrect.

Dave you have that backwards.  The church as been rock solid teaching that the middle wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles has been forever removed; Jesus abolished in his flesh the enmity that stood between us~ that stood in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, and so making peace between us.  God did this that he might reconcile both in ONE BODY, this he did by the cross.  So Paul and others came and preached unto us that were afar off, but first preach to them that were nigh; so that we both Jews and Gentiles have access by one Spirit unto the God of heaven.  We both share in the same promises, both are being built for an habitation of God through the Spirit. 

(this is where you go off coarse)There are no special and separated promises to the natural seed of Abraham.  This is the hidden mystery of the OT, yet clearly revealed by the apostles of Jesus Christ.  Proof texts and there are many, but only a couple for now.  Ephesians 2: 11-3:11; Romans 16:25-27

Yes there are gifts and a calling promised to the natural seeds of Abraham.

Romans 11:28-29
28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Israel is elected and given gifts promised to our fathers Abraham, Issac and Jacob.  I will address this later. First two things about your proof texts.

You are correct in your take on Eph 2 in as much as you identify we are one body, both Jews and Gentiles in Messiah. So let's focus on some of the context.

18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Gentiles are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles AND the prophets, Messiah being the cornerstone...  The saints are who?  Surely not Catholic or any Christian saint because this was before then.  The saints are listed in Hebrews 11 for one, they are the host of faithful from before Messiah.  The household of God is the house of Jacob, who is built on the apostles (the last come first and the first last) AND the prophets.  Because as they apostles stated in excitement "come quick! we have found the one who Moses and the prophets have written and told us about! it's Yeshua of Nazareth!"  The promised redeemer of Israel.  Which is why they asked him in excitement, "have you now come to redeem and restore Israel!!??". His response was 'not yet', not no never.

So yes, we are united as one body, one new man.  But does our equality rule out any restoration of Israel? Does Ephesians 2 state that there is no longer any role or identity for the nation of Israel? No it does not.  Our equality does not negate Israel's identity nor rule out Israel's restoration.  When it comes to salvation believing Jews and Gentiles are equal. This unity and equality, however, does not rule out historical and functional distinctions between the groups. Nor does it mean that there cannot be a distinct role for national Israel in the future. Both have never been taught by Yeshua nor his disciples.  The texts of Eph 2:11-22 and Rom 11:17-24 are not examples of Israel being superseded by the church.  They are indicating our unity and our equity in regards to God's blessings, love and promises of salvation.  But, our equality in Messiah does not remove Israel's identity, any more than it would make Gentiles Jewish.  It's Jew AND Gentile, not Jews THEN Gentiles.  Israel will be grafted back into their own tree!  Of which Gentiles have been grafted into.  He didn't make a new tree, he restored the existing one.

Which brings me to the second thing about your proof text, you should have not excluded Romans 11. You claimed

There are no special and separated promises to the natural seed of Abraham.  This is the hidden mystery of the OT, yet clearly revealed by the apostles of Jesus Christ.  Proof texts and there are many, but only a couple for now.  Ephesians 2: 11-3:11; Romans 16:25-27

The hidden mystery is that there's no special promises to the natural branches of Abraham??  Did you really mean to say that?  Because Paul says differently and if you would have only included Romans 11 in your consideration before you chose to make your claim you may have thought twice.  Why?  Because Romans 11 lays out exactly what the mystery is.  And it's not what you claim.

Romans 11:25 ESV
[The Mystery of Israel's Salvation] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers:a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 16:25 ESV
[Doxology] Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

In regards to the remnant of Israel Paul says this;

Romans 11
1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!..2God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew....5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace....7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Remember that mention of the elect it comes back later in the chapter, in context(Rom 11:29).

Speaking of context, Rom 1-10 is about the remant of Israel and how it exisits, physical seeds of Abraham who believe.  Paul is teaching that they do not disappear, they are not being replaced. The mystery is your inclusion, the gentiles.  They are included as citizens of the house of God/Jacob.

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation
Romans 11
25Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers:a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

The hardening is parial and temporary.  Not what I keep hearing from many Christians.  It states 'Israel will be saved', and then describes how.  Messiah will come from Zion and banish ungodliness from Jacob (read Jews).  And will make a covenant with Jacob/Israel and take away our sins.  In regards to the gospel we are enemies, BUT in regards to the election (there is that word, in context) we are loved for the sake of our fathers.  The gifts promised Abraham are irrevocable, the calling is certain.  Israel is elect, 'for the sake of our fathers'.  So it would be false to claim that the mystery is that there is no special giftsake due Israel because of the sake of her fathers.  Paul stated quite the opposite.

[Shimshon]

Now don't misunderstand me t oo much here.  The promise of Messiah and eternal life is certainly the main focus point relayed to the Gentiles.  But the restoration of Israel is directly connected to that promise.  And that is what is apparently being missed.

[Red Baker]

Now don't misunderstand me t oo much here.  The promise of Messiah and eternal life is certainly the main focus point relayed to the Gentiles.  But the restoration of Israel is directly connected to that promise.  And that is what is apparently being missed.

Greetings Shilshon,

I think myself happy, just as the beloved apostles to the Gentiles did when he stood before king Agrippa, to make myself clear concerning the hope that every Gentile has in Jesus Christ; and that by God's mercy stand upon the same holy ground as does our father Abraham stood before the God of heaven~that like Abraham I believe that we are part of the same promises, same covenant, and same body as Abraham, Jacob and Isaac...and as far as that goes, Abel, Noah and all of the righteous, before Abraham, and after him, up until this very day. THIS IS THE HIDDEN MYSTERY that was hidden in the OT and revealed in the NT.

But the restoration of Israel is directly connected to that promise.  And that is what is apparently being missed.

It is not connected to the promise made to Abraham, or any promises made~man invented that connection, which dishonors the Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Lord.  You will be given a fair hearing to prove it, as I trust I will be given a fair chance to prove otherwise.

More on this later, as I will answer your post above very carefully.   

[DaveW]

Are you the appointed spokesperson for Messianics?   I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, but it seems like you are always the first to jump all over anything at this forum related to Messianic Judaism.

LOL!! Me? "Appointed spokesperson?"  Not even close.  I am not even Jewish.

But it seems like I am often the only one who is willing to engage.

I hoped to get some other points of view since there are more Messianics posting here.  I seems like some of them are treating this discussion board like a blog where they just state their views and that's that.  They apparently don't want critiques.   I don't know - I'm just stating how it seems to be.

I have seen that as well.  Thank God for Shimson as he comes from a different segment of the Movement (alliance) and is willing to engage.

I have read your opinions many times before, as you have read mine.   It would be nice to get some fresh points-of-view here for a change.   That's what I am hoping for.

Agreed.

[notreligus]

Now don't misunderstand me t oo much here.  The promise of Messiah and eternal life is certainly the main focus point relayed to the Gentiles.  But the restoration of Israel is directly connected to that promise.  And that is what is apparently being missed.

You are missing the central message of the Bible.   Before the foundation of the world God envisioned the Church!  He used Israel as a vehicle.   The destination was the reconciliation of mankind.   Adam was not a Jew.   The offspring of Abraham is Christ!   Christ is the reconciler of the world.   You could not be more wrong.

Eph 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4  even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5  he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6  to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7  In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8  which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9  making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10  as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Eph 1:11  In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12  so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

He is on the throne as the Great High Priest.  He is the Mediator and Intercessor for ALL!   Without Him as your attorney you will hot have a defense.   All of the extra-Biblical beliefs and wisdom that Jews believe that they have accumulated from their rabbinical leaders will not help.   The Talmud opposes Christ and Christians.   I can't put the quotes here again if I need to.  Some are like pornography. 

Eph 2:14  For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
Eph 2:15  by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
Eph 2:16  and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

[notreligus]

Are you the appointed spokesperson for Messianics?   I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, but it seems like you are always the first to jump all over anything at this forum related to Messianic Judaism.

LOL!! Me? "Appointed spokesperson?"  Not even close.  I am not even Jewish.

But it seems like I am often the only one who is willing to engage.

I hoped to get some other points of view since there are more Messianics posting here.  I seems like some of them are treating this discussion board like a blog where they just state their views and that's that.  They apparently don't want critiques.   I don't know - I'm just stating how it seems to be.

I have seen that as well.  Thank God for Shimson as he comes from a different segment of the Movement (alliance) and is willing to engage.

I have read your opinions many times before, as you have read mine.   It would be nice to get some fresh points-of-view here for a change.   That's what I am hoping for.

Agreed.

Oh, today you're not Jewish?   You were yesterday.

You uphold the teachings of Judaism.   You don't need a Jewish mother to be Jewish.   You don't have to describe whether or not you're circumcised (too much information).   If one defends and upholds Judaism as superior they are practicers of Judaism.   We've all read your claims.   I think most are disinterested and that's why they don't get involved.   

I didn't finish this post.   Now I will.   You jump the gun.

I probably won't live long enough to post the hundreds of OT Scriptures that point to Christ with NT fulfillment.   Those who are blind may not care anyway, but those who are open to the Truth need to know. 

The Bible today is read by Christians like it's written in Hebrew.   They start at the back and read forward.   They give more importance to Israel.  For many years millions upon millions of dollars have been used to promote the Zionist movement.   False teachers abound.  Hagee is but one symptom of the real sickness. 

From Genesis forward we can easily glean that Adam failed, mankind has fallen short of being reconciled and needed a Reconciler.   Judaism is a man-made religion (many extra-Biblical compilations held to be authoritative) and cannot reconcile anyone.  Never could, and never will.   All of mankind must be reconciled by the finished work of Christ.   There is no other way.   

[DaveW]

He used Israel as a vehicle.

There is where your viewpoint falls short NR.  Israel was much more than just a vehicle, a means to get to a specific end.  That is NOT how God operates.

[DaveW]

Oh, today you're not Jewish?   You were yesterday.

Really? Show me where I have claimed to be Jewish.

You uphold the teachings of Judaism.

Yes, Some of them. Not all. Not even close to all.

You don't need a Jewish mother to be Jewish.

According to whom exactly?  You?

If one defends and upholds Judaism as superior they are practicers of Judaism.

"Superior" is your word, not mine. And Yes, I practice a New Covenant Judaism. (a concept you have repeatedly shown yourself unable to comprehend)

[notreligus]

Oh, today you're not Jewish?   You were yesterday.

Really? Show me where I have claimed to be Jewish.

You uphold the teachings of Judaism.

Yes, Some of them. Not all. Not even close to all.

You don't need a Jewish mother to be Jewish.

According to whom exactly?  You?

If one defends and upholds Judaism as superior they are practicers of Judaism.

"Superior" is your word, not mine. And Yes, I practice a New Covenant Judaism. (a concept you have repeatedly shown yourself unable to comprehend)

You've not shown that you believe the Book of Hebrews which identifies Old Covenant Judaism as obsolete.   Judaism has no part in the New Covenant.    God's Grace shown to mankind by the finished work of Christ is the backbone of the New Covenant.   Grace is not religion-dependent.   It is based on faith in what Christ did.   His righteousness is imputed to us.   Without that we cannot be reconciled back to God Almighty.   Messianic won't help any more than Baptist or Church of Christ.   Righteousness comes from Christ.   

[DaveW]

You've not shown that you believe the Book of Hebrews which identifies Old Covenant Judaism as obsolete. 

I completely agree that the Mosaic covenant is (or at least is becoming) obsolete.  My personal opinion is that the obsolescence came with the destruction of the temple, which was still about a decade in the future when Hebrews was written.

Judaism has no part in the New Covenant. 

And since this is your stated position, it is no wonder you cannot conceive of a New Covenant Judaism.

But the truth is the New Covenant is MORE JEWISH than the Mosaic covenant.

God's Grace shown to mankind by the finished work of Christ is the backbone of the New Covenant.   

I agree and that is JEWISH. Grace is Jewish.  Messiah's sacrifice is Jewish.  There is NO PART of any of this that is not Jewish.

Grace is not religion-dependent.   It is based on faith in what Christ did.

I suppose that depends on what your definition of "religion" is.  To my definition; "faith in what Christ did" IS religious.

His righteousness is imputed to us.   Without that we cannot be reconciled back to God Almighty.

I agree with that as well.  Does this surprise you?