Mikveh Immersion

[notreligus]

Messianics only baptize believers, not babies, and only baptize by immersion, since the practice described in the B'rit Chadasha is actually derived from a mikvah, a Jewish ritual purification bath.

Note:   Mikvah is also spelled as mikveh.

This was first posted as part of a list in the thread I started called "Differences - Messianics vs. Christians." 

The source: http://www.messianicworship.com/html/differences.html

This indicates that NT immersion was birthed within Judaism and the practice of mikveh immersion.   Are the Messianics at this Board in agreement with the Messianic person who originally made this statement?     

[DaveW]

Messianics only baptize believers, not babies, and only baptize by immersion, since the practice described in the B'rit Chadasha is actually derived from a mikvah, a Jewish ritual purification bath.

This was first posted as part of a list in the thread I started called "Differences - Messianics vs. Christians." 

The source: http://www.messianicworship.com/html/differences.html

This indicates that NT immersion was birthed within Judaism and the practice of mikveh immersion.   Are the Messianics at this Board in agreement with the Messianic person who originally made this statement?

In general - yes. I am not sure all Messianics would agree with it as I have heard some that practice infant baptism of some sort.  But adult believer total immersion is the majority practice.

[Shimshon]

This indicates that NT immersion was birthed within Judaism and the practice of mikveh immersion.   Are the Messianics at this Board in agreement with the Messianic person who originally made this statement?     

No, I do not agree with one law Messianics that are on a crusade to (re)define MJ in their own rebelous terms. So no, as a Messianic Jew I do not agree with this persons ideals and theology, and neither do many of the Jews and Gentiles I fellowship with.  Dave, I think you did not look into this persons page.  I have known of this person (online) for years. At face value (out of context) I see how you agreed.  But I know you would not agree with statements like " if your congregation does not say the Shema it is NOT Messianic"... It seems the OP used an inside antagonist in an attempt to display the indications of Messianic Judaism.  Not an honest tactic if you ask me.

For a good explaination of Mikveh as it relates to Messianic Judaism and baptism here is an artilce from my home congregation's teaching page.

Mikveh an immersion of hope

In ancient times, as it is still is today in Judaism, one would go through immersion for several reasons. If someone was going through a process of repentance, they would go through immersion. If someone was preparing for a difficult journey or a new chapter in life, they would go through immersion. The point of the exercise was ultimately to outwardly express a changed inner condition. Verbal confession was quickly followed up by immersion in water, and ideally, a visible change in the person's actions. It's clear that when Yochanan admonished the hypocritical group of religious leaders at the Jordan River, the step of true fruit-portraying holiness was missing.

Immersing oneself in water was an extension of the salvation process, which saw the individual able to approach God and man in purity. Though the Torah purity laws regarding rachatz/t'vilah were most certainly being practiced during the second-Temple period, as stated above, there were additional reasons for immersion during this time that were not a part of the wilderness generation's immersion experience. The process, while just as viable and required, had evolved beyond its original context. This was, of course, due to the post-dispersion heightened focus on holiness. The common belief, and rightly so, was that the dispersion occurred due to the nation's disobedience of the Torah. The new system was meant to ensure that this would not happen again. Fences were built around every commandment, and anything that had to do with purity—in this case, immersion—was practiced to a much greater extent. From what we see in the New Covenant books and letters, it seems clear that Yeshua and all His disciples operated within this established framework.

I'd be happy to discuss any questions as it relates to this article. But I will not engage in antagonistic debates with mockers, that serves no purpose.  Please keep that in mind. 

[DaveW]

No - I did not look any deeper on that website than the page referenced.

I do know the "one law" group is a sizable minority of Messianics and has most of the "Hebrew Roots Movement" christians as well.  (not to mention the MIA)

Shimshon - do you consider MIA to be "Messianic?"

[Shimshon]

No - I did not look any deeper on that website than the page referenced.

I do know the "one law" group is a sizable minority of Messianics and has most of the "Hebrew Roots Movement" christians as well.  (not to mention the MIA)

Shimshon - do you consider MIA to be "Messianic?"

Yes, because the term is a generic term (to me) that describes any believer in Yeshua who seeks to identify through a hebraic lens.  That would be the widest definition of the term.  MIA fits that generic definition.  They believe in Yeshua through a hebraic lens, as opposed to Christians who believe in Yeshua through a 'Church' lens.  Though to widdle it down further in generalization even Messianic and Christian are equal terms.  Belief in Jesus/Yeshua.  I find Messianic to be a very general term today that demands a qualifier.  Sad isn't it?  I'm a Messianic 'Jew'.  Some are Messianic 'Gentiles', others are Messianic 'Jewish', while others term themselves as simply Messianic.  These usually are gentiles who understand they are not 'Jewish' AND that they are not really following 'Judaism' as it is defined by Rabbinical Orthodoxy. 

Messianic Israel......  I've found a lot of commonalities in the two house thought but in the end I do not hold to it's theology.  I believe you also do not appreciate their theology from my memory.  So this should intrigue you as it did me.  I ran across an article from the Messianic Israel Alliance that surprised me.  Why?  They were saying the same thing I have been, only using different labels.

And as seen here below, have had their ministry hijacked by others too.  I find a commonality in what they believe.  A redeemed Israel.  Where Yeshua is King on the throne of David, and reigns over the House of Israel forever. We seem to have both found the connection in the prophets of Yeshua, and his title. 

King of Israel who sits on the throne of David reigning forever. (Luke 1:33)
The Messianic Israel Alliance is Not a 2 House organization!

I ask this because I never liked being called "Two House." I dislike the title because it was made popular by someone who copied our teachings and then added some terrible errors. I would love to be able to escape that negative association. Beyond that, I see an absolute irony in the way the title was picked up and is now often used by people who reject the truth about the restoration of Ephraim and Judah. Every time I hear us being labeled as "Two House," I feel like it is an incorrect, unsuitable name, one that does not describe us – or our ultimate goal – but it instead well describes those who oppose the truth of Scripture that we teach!

I have been studying and tailoring The Return of the King for years.  It began as an inspirational study (led by the Lord) to identify the Remnant of Israel in the prophets.  As Paul states in Romans 11, there is a remnant of Israel even today.  And as the angel said in Luke 1:33 about Yeshua, that he would sit on the throne of David and reign over the house of Israel forever.

As you read the prophets we see that this King would be assembling the dispersed of Israel and gathering them in their own land to be King over them, and the world.

I find the Messianic Israel Alliance to be proclaiming these truths.  Much to my huge surprise.

And beauty of all this is, I do not change a thing!  I believe as I have believed all along.  I simply found a common voice in those I once held at arms length.  Who knew?  Not I, but I do now.

And no, I'm not a 2-house believer.  I'm just identifying the common hope of all Messianics.  Yeshua who redeems Yisrael and rules over all the world.  Our 'Messianic' hope and vision. 

[DaveW]

"The Messianic Israel Alliance is Not a 2 House organization!"

Interesting article.  And on some level it does not surprize me.  It is not the first time Batya and Angus have attempted to change their spots.

For a long time they claimed that there was no such thing as a "gentile" christian believer, that anyone who believed had to be a physical decendant of one of the "lost" tribes.  I emailed them and showed them how that could not possibly be true from an anthropologic viewpoint.  So a year later they claimed they never said that. (but with no acknowledgement that I ever brought it up)

And if memory serves (from those old MIA newsletters put out by their good buddy Monte Judah) they were the ones that came up with the term "Two House..." meaning the house of Judah and the house of Israel.

[DaveW]

Ah, but I fear my brother that we have taken NR's post in another direction and perhaps it should be broken off into a different thread.

[Shimshon]

Children will be children.  We have to understand that we are all children in a growing process and stop acting like the older brother who continually picks on the younger....just because he's the younger.  We all have grown up through our briars and I do believe it was our Master's command that we help others through and not yank on them to firmly plant them in the thorns.  "hey look! it's Avishalom hanging from a tree!!! let's help him down.....  by pulling and yanking on him till his hair gets ripped out.  WE WILL SAVE HIM!!!!  Come on!!  Everyone pull together HARD!!"  As David screams for mercy and to let him go personally into the thorns to pull each one out so he might not be hurt.  Oh but Avi was a bad man!!  He deserved it!!  Do you really want that to be your excuse in front of THE King? 

People are fallable, they learn and grow and are pruned by God himself.  We should not point at the pruning as if we are immune to it.  I thank God for the pruning he did with me.  May he continue.

[Shimshon]

Ah, but I fear my brother that we have taken NR's post in another direction and perhaps it should be broken off into a different thread.

Agreed, I will stop responding to this (MIA) trail in this thread.

[notreligus]

Shimshon,

You may have noticed that I posted this at the "other" board, and the answer I got back from a Jewish person is that Messianics are wrong in this - as I posted it, of course - but this person's emphasis was that Mikveh (mikvah) immersion is, to put it simply, a mystical ritual.   Do you think that person is taking a position from Kabbalah-type beliefs?   

AFAIC, you can take this in whatever direction you choose.   I think I've already discovered that there are differing beliefs on this subject.   That's nothing new at this discussion board.   (If I came here one day and everybody agreed, I'd think I was at the wrong discussion board.  )   But I would appreciate thoughts concerning the mystic aspect of mikveh/mikve/mikvah immersion.   

(This may not be directly related to this, but it might have a connection.   It 's the "Kabbalah of Water."   This seems to be ad copy and it seems to be pointing to Kabbalah.   This statement is included:  "Water has been used for ritual purification since time immemorial."   http://www.arih2o.com/sepwaters.shtml   )

[Shimshon]

Shimshon,

You may have noticed that I posted this at the "other" board, and the answer I got back from a Jewish person is that Messianics are wrong in this - as I posted it, of course - but this person's emphasis was that Mikveh (mikvah) immersion is, to put it simply, a mystical ritual.   Do you think that person is taking a position from Kabbalah-type beliefs?

It would seem so, yes. 

AFAIC, you can take this in whatever direction you choose.   I think I've already discovered that there are differing beliefs on this subject.   That's nothing new at this discussion board.   (If I came here one day and everybody agreed, I'd think I was at the wrong discussion board.  ) But I would appreciate thoughts concerning the mystic aspect of mikveh/mikve/mikvah immersion.   

The kabbalah is not bad in and of itself, it's what others do/believe after contemplating it that issues arise.  The same would go for Christian mysticism, say 5 fold ministry, or charismatic commentaries on the Bible.  Kabbalistic understanding does not go against the gospel of Messiah.  Or should I better put it, entertaining the kabbalah does not go against the gospel.  John was VERY kabbalistic in his writtings.  "the word was with God and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" is kabbalistic wisdom and poetry.  So I would not throw the mikvah under the bus because others have expressed it's understanding in a kabbalistic sense.

(This may not be directly related to this, but it might have a connection.   It 's the "Kabbalah of Water."   This seems to be ad copy and it seems to be pointing to Kabbalah.   This statement is included:  "Water has been used for ritual purification since time immemorial."   http://www.arih2o.com/sepwaters.shtml   )

Mikvah ritual's have developed over the centries within Judaism, and the kabbalah helps understand how they have been understood.  But the mikvah did not originate with kabbalah.  It's origins are in the ritual washing and bathing encountered in Leviticus 15 and 16.  Which commands (first) men to wash and bathe when found 'unclean', and then explains the definition of unclean, then (second) the woman in minstration, with definitions, and finally in chapter 16 the priestly washing.  This is where we are to understand the significance of Messiah's 'immersion' by John.  Yeshua was being ritually cleaned to enter the temple in heaven as a sacrifice.  He was cleaned as high-priest and was also made pure to be an acceptable sacrifice to God.  This was all detailed in Torah, and the kabbalah later expounded on the beauty of it. 

To me it's like communion (catholic).  I find nothing wrong in action with the way they observe it.  If that is how they love the Lord and honor him, so be it.  But to say that is THE way it MUST be done or you are hellbound.....  I don't believe Messiah agrees with them.  Same with mikvah, there is nothing wrong with entertaining the beauty of kabbalah, but to say that is THE way to understand it and if you reject it you are damned..... yea.  not. 

My response is the mikvah does not originate in the kabbalah.  The kabbalah expounds on the mikvah, and there is nothing wrong with traditional kabbalah.  Ritual immersion (baptism) was given in Torah.  And Messiah fullfilled it's requirement according to Jewish law.  He was immersed as high priest and was purified as THE sin sacrifice of sacrifices.

[notreligus]

Shimshon,

You may have noticed that I posted this at the "other" board, and the answer I got back from a Jewish person is that Messianics are wrong in this - as I posted it, of course - but this person's emphasis was that Mikveh (mikvah) immersion is, to put it simply, a mystical ritual.   Do you think that person is taking a position from Kabbalah-type beliefs?

It would seem so, yes. 

AFAIC, you can take this in whatever direction you choose.   I think I've already discovered that there are differing beliefs on this subject.   That's nothing new at this discussion board.   (If I came here one day and everybody agreed, I'd think I was at the wrong discussion board.  ) But I would appreciate thoughts concerning the mystic aspect of mikveh/mikve/mikvah immersion.   

The kabbalah is not bad in and of itself, it's what others do/believe after contemplating it that issues arise.  The same would go for Christian mysticism, say 5 fold ministry, or charismatic commentaries on the Bible.  Kabbalistic understanding does not go against the gospel of Messiah.  Or should I better put it, entertaining the kabbalah does not go against the gospel.  John was VERY kabbalistic in his writtings.  "the word was with God and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" is kabbalistic wisdom and poetry.  So I would not throw the mikvah under the bus because others have expressed it's understanding in a kabbalistic sense.

(This may not be directly related to this, but it might have a connection.   It 's the "Kabbalah of Water."   This seems to be ad copy and it seems to be pointing to Kabbalah.   This statement is included:  "Water has been used for ritual purification since time immemorial."   http://www.arih2o.com/sepwaters.shtml   )

Mikvah ritual's have developed over the centries within Judaism, and the kabbalah helps understand how they have been understood.  But the mikvah did not originate with kabbalah.  It's origins are in the ritual washing and bathing encountered in Leviticus 15 and 16.  Which commands (first) men to wash and bathe when found 'unclean', and then explains the definition of unclean, then (second) the woman in minstration, with definitions, and finally in chapter 16 the priestly washing.  This is where we are to understand the significance of Messiah's 'immersion' by John.  Yeshua was being ritually cleaned to enter the temple in heaven as a sacrifice.  He was cleaned as high-priest and was also made pure to be an acceptable sacrifice to God.  This was all detailed in Torah, and the kabbalah later expounded on the beauty of it. 

To me it's like communion (catholic).  I find nothing wrong in action with the way they observe it.  If that is how they love the Lord and honor him, so be it.  But to say that is THE way it MUST be done or you are hellbound.....  I don't believe Messiah agrees with them.  Same with mikvah, there is nothing wrong with entertaining the beauty of kabbalah, but to say that is THE way to understand it and if you reject it you are damned..... yea.  not. 

My response is the mikvah does not originate in the kabbalah.  The kabbalah expounds on the mikvah, and there is nothing wrong with traditional kabbalah.  Ritual immersion (baptism) was given in Torah.  And Messiah fullfilled it's requirement according to Jewish law.  He was immersed as high priest and was purified as THE sin sacrifice of sacrifices.

Dick Reuben, who would probably be called a Hebrew Christian because he is a Jew but pastored an Assemblies of God Church, teaches that John the Baptist was a rightful heir to the priesthood because both his father and mother had ancestry tied to the Aaronic/Levitical priesthood.   (The official high priest at the time was a political appointee.)   He believes that the priesthood was transferred to Christ when John the Baptist baptized him.