Are We In The Church Ready for the Islamic Encounter?

[Tyler]

While we in the churches of Christ debate music in worship; kitchens in the basements, Sunday school, flags, one or multi cups the Middle East under the guise of "ISIS" is gearing up to decapitate us with or without the piano---:)

One of my oldest came home from college asking: Hey dad---how do I deal with Islam without exposing the errors of the Qur'an? Whether the church knows it or not (and they don't), Islam is in our colleges and we are not preparing to challenge their morally flawed book.

My oldest son Alex (named him after A. Campbell---:) said, you know Islam does not believe Jesus was crucified? (As if I just fell off the tater wagon).
Go on I said, Well dad, they believe His death was "fixed."  How so? I asked. Well, actually they believe Jesus was 'raised up' and it only appeared He had died on the cross.

He had written down from their Qur'an (Sura IV. 157-158)-- "That they say (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, The apostle of God;' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, But so it was made to appear to them, And those who differ. Therein are full of doubts, With no (certain) knowledge, But only conjecture to follow, For of a surety they killed him not:--Nay, God raised him up until Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise."

One has to scratch his head and wonder how anyone can believe this document is from Heaven to an illiterate camel jockey by the name Mohammed, by way of the angel Gabriel verbally in Arabic, over a period of 23 years from a cave in Mecca complied after his death.
I never was exalted by the literary content. One passage asserts: "Praise be to God, Who hath sent to His Servant [Mohammed] The Book [the Qur'an], and hath allowed Therein no Crookedness."
(18:1).---  Kind of like hill talk: "no speaky with a forked tongue."

I informed Alex that Islam was not the first to reject the death of Jesus. The Gonostic movement know as the Docetists in the late part of the first century denied that Jesus ever existed in a human form;  He only "appeared" that way."
Islam is named after a belief in one God, Allah, and submission to his will. In other words, Muslims put Allah's will according to the Qur'an before their own will. One might say, they have a little Calvinism in their thinking.

We talked about the Islamic repudiation of the death of Christ. That Islam is grounded in an aversion of the biblical doctrine of the Lord's vicarious death to atone for our sin, and thus strikes at the very heart of the gospel of Jesus of Nazareth.

I said,  Alex, The religion of Mohammed is hostile to the Christian faith, and it must never be viewed as an optional religious system that has divine approval. 

Christian man----you had better be teaching your son and daughter what awaits them at college, or the world in general---The cults lurk and wait on young ducklings for its first swim in the pond, as the snapping turtle; and the fox circles the hen house for a straggler coming home to roost.
I think back to the times Jesus would ask His disciples, "Do you understand my words?" Like young ducklings: "Yea Lord, we understand."

[DaveW]

This is not new.  I had an islamic guy from Qatar living a few doors down from me in the dorm back in 1974. We got to be somewhat friendly and I shared the gospel with him.  Gave him a bible in Arabic and led him to specific salvation scriptures in John. 

I also took him to church where he saw a few healings take place right before his eyes. 

These people (islamists) are not pursuaded by scripture verses in english or by logic.  they need this:

1 Cor 2.1   And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

I the previous chapter Paul wrote this:

1 Cor 1:22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;

The Arabs are cousins of the Jews and also need a sign.   So if you want your son or daughter to effectively stand against the antichrist stronghold of islam in the minds of those islamic college students, you need to teach them how to demonstrate the Power of the Spirit of God.


BTW - how do we know that the spirit of antichrist is behind islam? 

1 John 2:22  Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

One of islam's main tenets is "God has no son."

[Tyler]

DaveW: "The Arabs are cousins of the Jews and also need a sign.   So if you want your son or daughter to effectively stand against the antichrist stronghold of islam in the minds of those islamic college students, you need to teach them how to demonstrate the Power of the Spirit of God."

I tried to get em to speak in tongues Dave---but they missed the alter call----:)

[DaveW]

I am not talking about tongues which will not impress anyone. 

I mean visible miracles. Words of knowledge. Healings.  Maybe even confronting and manifesting the demonic strongholds in them.

That kind of thing.

[Tyler]

DaveW: "I am not talking about tongues which will not impress anyone. 

I mean visible miracles. Words of knowledge. Healings.  Maybe even confronting and manifesting the demonic strongholds in them.
That kind of thing."

Oh---OK ---I was just quoting Paul--"Tongues are for a sign, not to those that believe, but to them that believe not" (1 Cor. 14:22). Not sure a group from the church of Christ would get any action.
Most of us here in the hills have a problem with the English. But, we would pledge toward a Holiness group going to Syria and meeting up with IsIs and confronting them with miracles of healing and Words of knowledge---for sure, Obama hasn't got a plan.

[Poorguy]

Ok, now I am really confused. I was thinking this is the Church of Christ site of the site that was originally set up by members of the Church of Christ. But, now some of you are talking about "healing miracles." In my 40 plus years in the Church we have always agreed the scriptures make it clear we do not believe in modern day miracles. In this section am I not discussing these Bible issues with members of the Lord's Church?

[Tyler]

Poorguy: "Ok, now I am really confused. I was thinking this is the Church of Christ site of the site that was originally set up by members of the Church of Christ. But, now some of you are talking about "healing miracles." In my 40 plus years in the Church we have always agreed the scriptures make it clear we do not believe in modern day miracles. In this section am I not discussing these Bible issues with members of the Lord's Church?"

No Poorguy--you got to the dance late. Dave is a Messianic Jew who once confessed being  a Christian. He says that he has "witnessed healing miracles," so who am I to say that he has not?

I believe we need more healing miracles---I live in the mountains of Kentucky and we are running out of cemetery room to burry our dead. Speaking as a township trustee: If we had more healers and fewer snake handlers it would solve one of our commercial real estate problems.

[Johnb]

Poorguy this portion of the site is intended for CoC discussion but others also post here.  When I first came on GCM it was almost exclusively CoC people posting but we now have so many other groups we may be in a minority lol.  I like the inclusiveness of the site.  I do get frustrated with those who believe God speaks directly to them and the rest of us should listen and the ones who have figured out all the truth about every scripture and how we must listen to them.  I just don't post much in the theology section any more .  It reminds me of the TV evangelists who are always yelling and seem to be mad at me and I don't know why.   I do believe that God still works miracles just not at the hands of men.   

[Charlie24]

I'm not CoC, but I have seen miracles. The greatest of which is when God came down and gave His life for the sins of man, and I learned He did it for me, and believed. There is no greater miracle!

[k-pappy]

Ok, now I am really confused. I was thinking this is the Church of Christ site of the site that was originally set up by members of the Church of Christ. But, now some of you are talking about "healing miracles." In my 40 plus years in the Church we have always agreed the scriptures make it clear we do not believe in modern day miracles. In this section am I not discussing these Bible issues with members of the Lord's Church?

What user name did you go by when you were here last time?

[Tyler]

Johnb: "I just don't post much in the theology section any more . It reminds me of the TV evangelists who are always yelling and seem to be mad at me and I don't know why.  I do believe that God still works miracles just not at the hands of men."

Amen Johnb----I like to note the Miracle (sign) in Cana of Galilee. Jesus shows up as a guest with four of his disciples. He ends up (by request of his mother) with six pots of water ("to the brim") at 30 gallon each: turning the water into "oinos" (that's wine for my Kentucky friends).
180 gallon of "the good wine" says the "governor of the feast."

John said, "This was the beginning of his miracles" which knocks a hole in the Apocryphal books from the RCC. Many saying that "Jesus was working miracles as a child." When one stays with the "good wine" there is no breach in the Holy Spirit.

I like this miracle (sign) because we see the character of Jesus. He had no intentions of working a miracle here in this little town of obscurity. Certainly wasn't for a show, after all, He performed this microcosm of Creation in the kitchen among the servants.
His reasoning? I believe it was to vindicate His mother. Had she not  been the "by word" among her family and kin? How many do you think attending that wedding believed a story about a "virgin birth"?
Had Joseph not married her, by law, she was to be "stoned to death."

At this wedding, she was the joke of those who sit at the gate; and speak against her, she had become the song of the drunkards. Her heart had been broken many times. How many time had she wept from insult?

Her request of the servants: "Whatever he says unto you do it." are the words of one who knew reproach and shame. She had been dishonored, and now her adversaries were there. She looked for someone to take pity. Now, at the age of thirty, this Son that she had brought into the world as a servant of God was asking Him to reveal who He was. "The Son of God," the Messiah of the Jewish Scriptures.

Must have worked---for John (one of the four disciples there) wrote: "This beginning of his signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his character, and his disciples believed on him."
Here, Jesus worked a sign of benevolence for His mother----Wonder how much of that 180 gallon of wine was left? No doubt, the non believers took "a to-go" package home with them....:)

[Poorguy]

Look at the top of the page. This is the Church of Christ Forum part of the Restoration Movement Forum. I followed the leads to this place that was clearly marked Church of Christ so I should reasonably expect to be discussing these issues with members of the Lord's church, not with people who believe in modern day revelations or miraculous gifts.

[Jaime]

Mo poorguy, this forum is not closed to non-cofc'ers.

[Poorguy]

Of course, Jaime, this a public site and therefore open to everyone. Normally I don't debate scripture with people who are not fellow members of the Lord's church, but this is clearly marked a Church of Christ site and we each should expect here to freely discuss Church of Christ bible issues. Am I mistaken about this?

[Johnb]

We have lots of members of "the Lord's church" on the site just not all of them are members of the church of Christ denomination.

[Jaime]

Yes you are mistaken Poorguy. You can expect to discuss with any and everyone or go somewhere that suits you better. The topics in the cofc forum are typically topics unique to the cofc, but discussion is NOT limited to only cofc folks. And as John said, please do not refer to the ultra conservative, politically liberal cofc as exclusively the Lord's Church. Our moderation button is not all that hard to use.

[Norton]

I don't think you would have to deny modern day miracles to be in the Lord's Church anyway.

[Poorguy]

I don't think you would have to deny modern day miracles to be in the Lord's Church anyway.

Yes, I believe we do. In the Church of Christ we only go by the rightly divided word of truth and the scriptures make it clear the time of miraculous gifts has passed, I Cor 13:8-12.

[DaveW]

Ok, now I am really confused. I was thinking this is the Church of Christ site of the site that was originally set up by members of the Church of Christ. But, now some of you are talking about "healing miracles." In my 40 plus years in the Church we have always agreed the scriptures make it clear we do not believe in modern day miracles. In this section am I not discussing these Bible issues with members of the Lord's Church?

Yes Poor guy - I am former CoC.  And I have seen miracles - even had one or 2 happen to me.  And yes the Coc is against such things which is how I came to be "former" CoC.  They asked me to leave.

But the OP question was about being ready for the onslaught of Islam.  And IMO unless the CoC (and many others as well) reverse that cessationist mindset SOON, they will fail badly when confronting islam.

Do you remember Paul said the Jews need a sign/wonders and Greeks need logic?  Well, the Arabs are cousins to the Jews and also need miracles.

[Norton]

I don't think you would have to deny modern day miracles to be in the Lord's Church anyway.

Yes, I believe we do. In the Church of Christ we only go by the rightly divided word of truth and the scriptures make it clear the time of miraculous gifts has passed, I Cor 13:8-12.

Saying that I Cor 13 makes it clear that the time of miraculous gifts has passed away is not rightly dividing the word of truth, it is making up word of truth. I Cor 13 doesn't connect the passing of the gifts to any one certain event that has already been fulfilled.

[DaveW]

I don't think you would have to deny modern day miracles to be in the Lord's Church anyway.

Yes, I believe we do. In the Church of Christ we only go by the rightly divided word of truth and the scriptures make it clear the time of miraculous gifts has passed, I Cor 13:8-12.

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Interesting.  One of the elders at that CoC thought that the reason I am NOT a cessationist is that I did not properly understand the scriptural argument.  So I laid out the I Cor 13:8-12 for him and he smiled and said he could not have presented it as well as I did.   Then I told him where the holes were.

First is the assumption that the "perfect" is the word of God - the completion of the NT cannon.  But if that were true then we would all "see face to face" and there would be no dispute over anything.  We would all understand perfectly.

Second - the Lord Himself said there was no one perfect except God alone. So if the perfect that was to come HAD to be God.  That can only indicate the 2nd coming of our Lord.

Third - (sorry preterists) the Lord has NOT come back yet.

Those are the 3 holes that sink the boat of that argument.

[notreligus]

Tyler is giving out some good advice in this C of C forum.   Do some independent study on how what we call the state of Israel came about.   Find out what happened to 750,000 Palestinians, including Christians, who were killed, or forced from their homes, businesses, and their churches.   Israel paid them for the land with some crates of oranges.   I was blind to these things for many years and like many others I believed that all of the negative things were lies and made up by anti-Semites.   That's a propaganda campaign.   Follow the money.   

How many of you know how that tens of thousands of additional lives were lost in WWII when Britain refused to make peace with the Turks who wanted to surrender to Britain and break ties with the Germans?    Britain delayed peace with the Turks so they could later seize Palestine without opposition.    The United States used our leverage with Britain in the form of all of the debt owed to America for the war armaments supplied to them to speed-up the process and take the land away from the Palestinians and give it to the many Jews who had nowhere else to go as other countries would not take them.  We Americans boast about how we love the Jews but we wanted the post WWII Jews to be sent to Palestine instead of here.  Ten thousand Jews did come to Galveston, Texas which was a suggested new homeland for them, but, as we know, Palestine was the majority destination.   Britain did not want them either.   Read the Balfour Declaration.   

We hear and read a biased report.  Christians have died in large numbers in the Middle East.  Two million Christian Armenians died in Turkey in 1915.   

God loves the Arab people.   Christ died for them, too.    God does not favor one ethnic group over another.   His people are one body, the Body of Christ.   

Arab Muslims might hate me out of ignorance and how they've been indoctrinated, but I'm going to tell them the that Christ is the offspring of Abraham, not an ethnic group.   Christ is true Israel.

[Norton]

The Palestinians got a better deal from the Jews than the Indians that sold us Manhattan Island.  Land ownership has never been fair or just since the world began. It has always been a matter of who can take and hold it. Even in the USA, state laws recognize adverse possession where one can gain title to someone else's property by claiming and holding it for a number of years. If the "rightful" owner does not put up enough resistance, he loses his property.

[Poorguy]

Notreligus is correct, Christ and his body, the church, is the only true Israel, the spiritual kingdom of God. It is the only real one nation under God and Christ is its king forever.

[Tyler]

notreligious: "God loves the Arab people.   Christ died for them, too.    God does not favor one ethnic group over another.   His people are one body, the Body of Christ."

Amen and True! God's love for the Arab people is seen in the "promise" He made in Genesis 17:20.
You will note that God promised to make many nations from Abraham sons, both Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael had 12 sons, who gave rise to as many tribes or nations called by their names, and dwelt southward in Arabia.

I know you Bible student will recognize the "son's of Ishmael, son of Hagar, as named by Moses in Genesis 25:12-18.
Eusebius, the noted historian, in 350 A.D. speaks of twelve Arabian Princes in his lifetime.
The Arab descendants of Ishmael were indeed multiplied as God had promised with the emergence of the Nabateans, Iureans, Saracens, Ishmaelites, etc.

Scholars of ancient history will recognize the "Saracens" in the linage of Ishmael as the warriors who possessed the civilized world for more than 300 years. I am reminded that history reveals that every noted conqueror, whether Hebrew, Egyptian, Assyrian, Chaldean, Persian, Grecian, Roman, Tartar, or Turkish, Russians or the Coalition under George Bush and Barack Obama has pushed his conquest to their borders, but not one has ever been able to subdue them. or deprive them of their freedom. Now, I realize that many fightening, there today are not sons of Ishmael, but never the less, the main characters have not been subdued; and remain steadfast in the land.

Keep this in mind---the descendants of Ishmael were divided into tribes, after the manner of the Jews. Different however in disposition, habit and character. A vast number of these early Arab settlers, of whom the Bedouins are most generally known, who have, in all ages, practically and literally realized the prediction of the angel (Gen. 16:11) and God occurring later in chapter 17 of Genesis.

Let me remind you Christian---it is true that the specific covenant and spiritual promise was exclusively stated to be between Isaac and his off spring--- the "promise" by God to Ishmael has NEVER been rescinded,--it remains in tact. I have no idea what will happen in this land of Ishmael, but to butt heads with a unconditional "promise" made by God is suicide in my opinion; have we not seen the results in blood and money of this nation?

Here is a Bible study that you won't hear John Hagee or the enchanted dispensationalists mention, or the so called "Jew" of today. It was Ishmael who was circumcised at thirteen years of age, before Isaac was born (Gen. 17:25). Now, if Ishmael, the firs-born was circumcised by Abraham as a part of the covenant with God, how can anyone believe that he (Ishmael) and his Arab descendants were somehow, somewhere, disinherited from the promise already given to Hagar and Ishmael?

It is sometime later during the time of Isaac and Jacob that the promise is narrowed to the descendants, though again not in such away as to totally exclude their Arab brethren; and it is a well known fact that many Arabs accompanied Moses and Joshua into Palestine when the country was partially occupied; and much of Moses' success was due at least in part to the kindness and hospitality of Jethro the Midianite who was of course, an Arab and Moses' father-in-law (Exodus 3:1)

Those of the Muslim faith (educated) today believe Ishmael is the "son of promise."
It was Ishmael that was to be sacrificed (Genesis 22:1-18) And Mohammad is the "Prophet" of Deuteronomy 18:15.
To convert one who believes in the Qur'an to Jesus Christ, you had better have a handle on what he believes that is written in the Qur'an to what is written in God's word.
If "miracles," as someone has suggested will convert the unbeliever. I ask, why such a few at the foot of the cross the day Jesus was crucified and the morning He arose?

[notreligus]

Poorguy: "Ok, now I am really confused. I was thinking this is the Church of Christ site of the site that was originally set up by members of the Church of Christ. But, now some of you are talking about "healing miracles." In my 40 plus years in the Church we have always agreed the scriptures make it clear we do not believe in modern day miracles. In this section am I not discussing these Bible issues with members of the Lord's Church?"

No Poorguy--you got to the dance late. Dave is a Messianic Jew who once confessed being  a Christian. He says that he has "witnessed healing miracles," so who am I to say that he has not?

I believe we need more healing miracles---I live in the mountains of Kentucky and we are running out of cemetery room to burry our dead. Speaking as a township trustee: If we had more healers and fewer snake handlers it would solve one of our commercial real estate problems.

Technically DaveW cannot be a Messianic Jew.   He can only be a Noachite, or a God-fearer, who shares beliefs with the Jews and worships with Jews in the synagogues.   A proselyte is a Gentile who has been circumcised as a Jew; a Noachite has not been circumcised as a Jew so cannot truly be considered a Jew.

[DaveW]

NR is correct in this except for one thing. 

There is a group out there that has officially adopted the name "Noachite," and I am not in that group.  (we have a couple of them in the Messianic folder over at christianforums) They do not have any official affiliation with Messianic Judaism. (I am sure there are some individuals who bridge the gap)  I am in a Messianic Synagogue and refer to myself as a Messianic Gentile.

In the Tikkun network, I have been given the designation of K'rov Yisrael, or one (gentile) who is brought near to Israel.

As to the term "proselyte;" I am, in general, opposed to gentile conversion to Judaism; Messianic or otherwise. (with a few exceptions)

[AVZ]

I am in a Messianic Synagogue and refer to myself as a Messianic Gentile.

Translation:
I am in a church and refer to myself as a Christian.

[DaveW]

I am in a Messianic Synagogue and refer to myself as a Messianic Gentile.

Translation:
I am in a church and refer to myself as a Christian.

That translation works ONLY if you are a traditional Jew.

Which I am not and neither are you.

[notreligus]

NR is correct in this except for one thing. 

There is a group out there that has officially adopted the name "Noachite," and I am not in that group.  (we have a couple of them in the Messianic folder over at christianforums) They do not have any official affiliation with Messianic Judaism. (I am sure there are some individuals who bridge the gap)  I am in a Messianic Synagogue and refer to myself as a Messianic Gentile.

In the Tikkun network, I have been given the designation of K'rov Yisrael, or one (gentile) who is brought near to Israel.

As to the term "proselyte;" I am, in general, opposed to gentile conversion to Judaism; Messianic or otherwise. (with a few exceptions)

The term Noachite, or Noahite (alternate spelling), is not a recent development (as you might think after reading DaveW's post)  but a long-established term, in use before Christ came.   This goes back to the Diaspora and the Hellenist Jews who worshiped in synagogues in the major cities outside of Jerusalem.  (The Jerusalem Jews were referred to as Palestinian Jews.)    As I said before, they are also called God-fearers.   The God-fearers generally agreed with the beliefs and practices of the Jews but were not circumcised as were the proselytes.   If others are interested in reading more on the subject Wiki has pages on God fearers and Noahites/Noachites, and there are articles about the Seven Noahide Laws.   The rabbis/sages established who fell into which category.   

I'm currently reading a book by John Polhill called Paul & His Letters.   In the book there is a discussion of the Hellenist/Greek Jews who used the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Scriptures, and taught from this instead of using Hebrew texts.   Paul grew up in and learned the Scriptures in this context but later studied with teachers (Gamaliel) in Jerusalem.   Thus he was comfortable amongst the Hellenist or Palestinian Jews (but neither group was particularly comfortable with him after his conversion to Christ). 

[notreligus]

I am in a Messianic Synagogue and refer to myself as a Messianic Gentile.

Translation:
I am in a church and refer to myself as a Christian.

Messianics avoid the use the term Christian.   In fact they differentiate a Hebrew Christian from a Messianic Jew.   They want to keep their Jewish distinctive.    This is called Covenantal Nomism or a belief that being a Jew puts you in a superior position before God Almighty.  The New Covenant is a Jewish covenant.   

[DaveW]

Yes, I know the Noachites have been around since the first century bc and the Noachide laws being formulated by the rabbis in the that same century.  And in that sense I would fit the definition.

But recently a group has co-opted the name so the description has changed (by them) somewhat.

I am not sure what all this detail has to do with the coming flood of islam.  (the topic of this thread)

[notreligus]

Yes, I know the Noachites have been around since the first century bc and the Noachide laws being formulated by the rabbis in the that same century.  And in that sense I would fit the definition.

But recently a group has co-opted the name so the description has changed (by them) somewhat.

I am not sure what all this detail has to do with the coming flood of islam.  (the topic of this thread)

You make a comment like that in every thread that has facts you don't want to deal with.   Tyler stated that you were a Messianic Jew and as a member of this forum I have the right to comment on that.   

You have been able to slide along and define Judaism according to the Tikkun Zionist group at this forum for a long time.   There needs to be a balanced presentation of Judaism made here and not such a biased view presented with your calling "foul" every time someone disagrees with you.   You don't need to say that what I've posted is true.   I wouldn't post it if I didn't believe it were true and have documentation to support it.   

The smeller is the feller.   

[DaveW]

But NR - WHAT does any of this have to do with islam?

[AVZ]

I am in a Messianic Synagogue and refer to myself as a Messianic Gentile.

Translation:
I am in a church and refer to myself as a Christian.

That translation works ONLY if you are a traditional Jew.

Which I am not and neither are you.

True, you and I both are gentiles who believe in Christ, which makes us Christians same as the traditional Jew who believes in Christ and also is a Christian.
Both of us mingle with a group of Christians, which is called a Church which is the same for a traditional Jew Christian who mingles with other Jew Christians or Messianic gentiles.

Point is of course that any Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile who denies to be a Christian is neither Messianic or Christian.