Are We In The Church Ready for the Islamic Encounter?

[DaveW]

AVZ - again this is way off topic.

So start another thread on what we should call ourselves already.

Back to the coming islamic menace .........

[Tyler]

It is a good discussion that many in the Church will shy away for fear of offending and being called "anti Semitic" or just being ignorant of the New Testament. I am old enough to recall the talk when the old League of Nations partitioned the land of Palestine in support of a "homeland" for the "Jewish" people. Many noted citizens of the day said that "America would pay a price for their vote of "yea."
Keep in mind in your political thinking that the Palestinian peoples are Semitic that were in Palestine before the ancestors of the Sematic Jews. The Biblical record affirms that the Arabs and Jews were first cousins, being descendants of one common ancestor, Abraham, by his three wives Sarah, Hagar, and Ketura.

The Jews now occupying Palestine are but mere fragments and in no way traceable to the former Hebrews of Habiru who once conquered the land of Canaan. The Palestine Arabs still living in Palestine are true descendants of the original Semitic inhabitants. Their roots do not lie in Syria, or Lebanon, Jordan or Egypt, but rather the only country they have ever known as their homeland, the land of Palestine.

I said that to say this---The New Testament does not recognize a "Jew," or a  "Messianic Jew."
You are either a "Christian" via the blood of Christ or you are as Paul would say---"He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outwardly in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit (new testament) and not in the letter (old testament); whose praise is no of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28-29).
If you are not a "Christian" you are a Gentile---and that is any race of men not being a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17). "There is neither Jew nor Greek" (Gentile) Galatians 33:28.

[DaveW]

Can we get back to countering islam?

[Jaime]

there is no doubt that an Arab Christian is just as loved as a Gentile Christian. There are many such that have converted from Islam and quite a number that realize that the Jews are not their enemies. Obviously God desires ALL to come to a saving faith in Christ. The Muslims are part of ALL.

Someone mentioned the promise to Ishmael and yes, God did promise to make a great nation out of the decendents of Ishmael and he did. He also indicated that Ishmael would also be a donkey of a man against his brother Jacob and his decendents. And that of course has come to be. The son of the Promise of the Messiah came through Isaac of course. The Koran indicates otherwise. Yes and YES, the people enslaved by Islam are loved by God, no doubt about that, and they need Jesus of course.

I read somewhere that the Chinese Christians believe THEY will be the ones to take the Gospel eastward back toward the Middle East because they understand the persecution and difficulties the people under Islam suffer.

Also, if the rest of the Arabs had an iota of sympathy for the Palestinians rather than for a scab to keep knocked off and the wound oozing, there might be some credence to the whole idea of justice for the Palestinians.

Christians from the West will not have much if any success in converting the Muslims. I give some support to an Iranian now American that converted from Islam and he has a ministry to the people of Iran who will listen. He has had success where no Westerner would have because he understands the people and the demonic idealogy.

[notreligus]

But NR - WHAT does any of this have to do with islam?

Everything.

The Church has been taught lies.  We are influenced to wrongly interpret Who Christ is, What He did, and Why He did it.  Did He come here as God or a mere man?   Did He come here to continue a relationship with a people who had long deserted Him?   Did He come here to begin a new program which was to benefit all of mankind and establish the Church as Paul said God had envisioned before the foundation of the world?   Is He going to come back and de-throne Himself and give the Jews another thousand years to believe Him?   Are we going to lift Israel so high that we overlook the fact that 750,000 Palestinians, including Christians, were removed from a land and left in a position of poverty?   We are so wrongly taught and so blind that we cannot see how the self-serving actions of the United States and Britain have opened the door to terrorism in Palestine.   We don't even realize that a former Israeli leader boasted that he was the inventor of terrorism and he celebrated the shed blood of any Arab person.   We have come to call hate love.   That's how all of this nonsense we are taught in the Church matters. 

[DaveW]

NR - did you know that over the past year or 2 a couple of former islamic terrorists - one from Boca Haram and the other a son of the leader of Hamas - have been preaching the gospel in Israel in conjunction with and supported by Tikkun emisaries in the Land?

[DaveW]

OK - raising a zombie thread. 

Despite the fact this group is primarily Presbyterians (and I know how well CoC and Presbys get along) it is less sectarian than that.  I have spoken with the leader who wrote this email on several occasions (and got him in touch with Tikkun Emisarry Asher Intrater) I feel the jist of this email is fitting to the OP about meeting the Islamic Encounter.  This is this pastor's (and his group) strategy for that.

Dear Intercessors:

Over Easter I released the Prayer Strategy for Jesus' Victory over ISIS and Radial Islam.

Please down load this prayer strategy  and feel free to send it to as many people as you are led to so they can join in this prayer work.  We can also send hard copies to those would like them.

I really believe that defeating the stronghold of Radical Islam and advancing the Gospel of Jesus Christ into the Muslim world is the Holy Spirit's critical agenda of this season.

You can download this booklet as well as view a short video introduction to the whole prayer strategy HERE. 
<link to prmi.org>

A group of retired military men who are in a prayer group praying through the Prayer Strategy just sent this response:.

Thanks for sending A Prayer Strategy and the corresponding video. As a result, last month the Holy Spirit led a good friend of mine, a retired Lt. General, and me to start a prayer group where we live at a military retirement center.  God is giving us a cadre of true intercessors who desire to wrestle in the spiritual realm as the Holy Spirit leads us. We're on board!

One word of encouragement to you regarding the area in which you get into trouble: Strategy 4: Removal of the leaders through the means of the Father's choosing. Don't let this be a problem to you, nor give your precious time and energy, engaging those who disagree. Choose to move on, set your face like a flint, and focus on what God is leading you to do. There is plenty of biblical evidence to support your/our stance on removal of leaders. Here's one example: Ezekiel 38. In summary God tells Ezekiel to say "this" to Gog, i.e., God's own message. As Gog goes to conquer God's people, God will remove Gog with swords (military), disease, bloodshed, torrential rain, hailstones, fire and burning sulphur.

We are God's prophets today and we are required to use God's word in our spiritual warfare. There's nothing better and safer than using God's word and His actual words, as we speak against the enemy in prayer.

Keep on keeping on, Brad. You're on target, we're with you and in God's power, God will remove unrepentant hearts as seen in Revelation 9 and 16.

"The God of peace will soon crush Satan under YOUR (emphasis mine) feet. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." Romans 16:20

Blessings, 
Ren  Vandesteeg
Chaplain, Colonel (Retired), USAF

I so needed this encouragement from those on the frontlines who are finding this strategy helpful.  I think we all need encouragement!  It also helps to have the feedback of those who understand and have been on the front lines of both earthly as well as spiritual warfare. 

The Interface Between Earthly Warfare and Spiritual Warfare

It is this interface between the human intercessors and human warriors and God's intervention and God's angelic armies that we are called not only to learn about but to take part in.

The Messianic Jewish Scholar Asher Intrater has helped me deepen my own understanding of this interface between the human and the divine.  Asher raises the question "who fought the battle of Jericho?"  He tells of the strange encounter that Joshua has:

Jos 5:13-14  When Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him holding a drawn sword. Joshua approached him and asked him, "Are you on our side or allied with our enemies?"  (14)  He answered, "Truly I am the commander of the LORD's army. Now I have arrived!" Joshua bowed down with his face to the ground and asked, "What does my master want to say to his servant?"  5:15  The commander of the LORD's army answered Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you stand is holy." Joshua did so.

The Commander of the Lord's armys has a drawn sword which means that he is ready for battle.   Who is this?  Is this an angel or Yahweh Himself?  I believe that this is actually Jesus Christ.  He is the commander of the Lord's armies.  Now the actual battle involved both God's actions as well as the people's actions: marching around the city walls and blowing the shofars, shouting and rushing in when the walls fell.   Asher sums up this interface of the divine and human coordinated work with this profound statement.

The people did not do the essential part of the fighting.  The one who fought the battles was the Commander of the Army of Yehovah, along with all His warrior angels.  Spiritual warfare is not military war alone.  Nor is it spirituality disconnected from the military situation.  Spiritual warfare is the connection between the heavenly armies and the earthly ones.  Our prayers, prophecies and praise affect angels, who in turn affect the military, economic and political situation around us.

In our battle with Radical Islam I am convinced that the Holy Spirit is revealing to us that Jesus Christ, the Commander of the Lord's Armies, has indeed drawn His sword and is calling us into the battle.

Our beginning place for engagement in this fight is like Joshua, submitting to our Commander and asking,  ""What does my master want to say to his servant?"  So let's make that our prayer! Lord reveal to us first that you are there standing before us. And second what do you want to say to us.  Only as we listen and obey will we be able to take part in this battle that does indeed belong to the Lord.

I am so excited to hear that there are a number of prayer groups who have started praying through this strategy.   Frankly, this is something best done in a small group where you have support and discernment together.

I offer the following pointers as you respond to the Holy Spirit's call to engage.

1. One pastor asked,  "Are there any restrictions on using these materials?"  The answer is "no."  Please feel free to print, distribute, and use these guides.  If you would like hardcopies from the PRMI office just email us at prmi@prmi.org or call 828-669-7373.  We would appreciate some help with the printing and postage for getting this out.  We are also working on a printed book version that will be available soon.

2. As the Spirit leads you to apply the prayer strategies and tactics, you must be aware of the constantly changing battle field.  To get up to date intelligence on ISIS and other stronghold of Radial Islam including Iran, I highly recommend http://www.jihadwatch.org/ and the writing of Robert Spencer and Raymond Ibrahim.  Also http://www.frontpagemag.com/ of the David Horowitz Freedom Foundation provides some good insights.

3. When you get any discernment or guidance as to how the Holy Spirit is calling you to pray, that can be shared with others, please let us know and I will get it out over Discerning the Times.  Simply respond to this email and send comments to bradlong@prmi.org.

4. If you are being called to engage, please do not do this alone!   Rather ask someone else to stand by you like Aaron and Hur stood by Moses.  Also it may be good if you could send me a note which I will pass on to Bernie McGale so we can be praying for you as well.  God is raising up a worldwide army of intercessors and spiritual warriors to defeat this nemesis to the Church of Jesus Christ and to humanity. 

Thanks!!! It looks rather grim right now but we do seem to be seeing some answers to prayer.  Also pray that the demonic cloaking that is blinding the world to the goals and actions of Iran will be pierced, exposing Satan's plans for genocide being developed in this stronghold.  All eyes are on ISIS right now and we must be careful not to ignore the other stronghold of death that Satan is building through the Mullahs in Iran who have declared "death to Israel" and "death to America."

All this must be defeated with the love, life, grace and power of Jesus Christ who is the Commander of the Lord's armies.

In Christ,

Brad Long

[Tyler]

DaveW: "But NR - WHAT does any of this have to do with Islam?

I made a statement that the partition of Palestine is the major cause of the rise of Islam. True. the radical Islamist with various names under different flags have taken up the fight in the name of Allah.

But the seed was sown in 1917 when Arthur James Balfour, British Foreign Secretary, believing he was an instrument in the hand of God issued the famous declaration bearing his name. A mandate issuing by the old League of Nations to partition Palestine. History reveals that both Religious and political Zionism came from this mandate. A "National Homeland" for the Zionist Jews has festered from this mandate and also the rise of Islam.

The Church as slept for the past 2000 years, falling into apathy. Is God about to awaken the "lukewarm" church from idleness? God is "no respecter of persons." He used the might Roman armies to bring the Jew to their knees in A.D. 64-70; and as far back as using the Assyrians to crush the Northern Kingdom for disobedience. The Church in the USA is so divided by a bunch of painted nitwits on national TV and rolling around in a "Pope mobile" that the war will be over before they can get to their Learjets.

By the way---Where in Scripture do we find "Messianic gentiles"? I thought Paul dealt with this dividedness in the book of Romans. Did he not say all through the letter that there is "no distinction in Jew and Gentile"?
It is this kind of garbage that has caused division in Christianity.
Can't be just a "Christian," have to separate yourselves by some kind of BS!
I guess, if you are not in Christ (Galatians 3:27-29) you are some kind of privileged character with a Messianic handle?"

[DaveW]

I made a statement that the partition of Palestine is the major cause of the rise of Islam. True. the radical Islamist with various names under different flags have taken up the fight in the name of Allah.

But the seed was sown in 1917 when Arthur James Balfour, British Foreign Secretary, believing he was an instrument in the hand of God issued the famous declaration bearing his name. A mandate issuing by the old League of Nations to partition Palestine. History reveals that both Religious and political Zionism came from this mandate. A "National Homeland" for the Zionist Jews has festered from this mandate and also the rise of Islam.

I am very sure that is a good part of it; at least in the natural.  But we are also dealing with spiritual forces beyond our evaluation.  Derek Prince was asked by one of his Camridge coleagues during the time that the UN was debating creating a Jewish state in Palestine if he thought that creating a Jewish homeland would cure the problem of antisemitism in Europe. Prince answered (wisely imo) that if antisemitism was a purely human problem, a Jewish homeland should take care of it.  But if it was a spiritual problem, a Jewish homeland would only make it worse.

By the way---Where in Scripture do we find "Messianic gentiles"?

OT in this thread but a good question anyway. Since you are the OP I will answer.

In the NT we find 3 of them: the Centurian with the ill slave; Jarius whose daughter had died; and Cornelius who Peter et al went to.

In the NT scriptures they are refered to as "God Fearers." We also read about them (using that same title) in the Talmud and find out a lot about them.  They lived a Jewish life, kept the Law, attended synagogue and went to the Temple (court of the gentiles). IOW, they were Jewish converts in all respects except one: they were not circ'd. (for what ever reason)

And these 3 (at least) were also followers of Jesus/Yeshua.

[Tyler]

DaveW :"They lived a Jewish life, kept the Law, attended synagogue and went to the Temple (court of the gentiles). IOW, they were Jewish converts in all respects except one: they were not circ'd. (for what ever reason)"

In other words, they have not been taught any differently?
What is it about "There is neither Jew nor Gentile etc. Galatians 3:28 that is so difficult to understand? You say that you are a "Messianic Jew." You probably could not trace your linage past Ellis Island.
My great-great-great grandfather was a Cherokee chief, if we can believe my great grandfather who also liked the taste of the fire water brewed back in the hills during the prohibition . ---
Good grief, I have not continued in his life style of dancing around the wigwam and chanting to the moon.

In 11 Timothy we find Paul speaking of men becoming "vessels of honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work."
How is the Master to use those who would hang on to cults?

Judaism today (any part of it) is a cult. Not believing in Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God you are lost.
No different than the Muslim believing Mohammad is the Prophet spoken of in Deuteronomy 18:15; the Mormon believing Josephus Smith is the "final prophet of God" or a dancing Cherokee believing the Great Spirit rides a spotted pony across the sky choosing at his will who would to be a warrior. Sounds a little Calvinistic--but, there is no record of great-great-great grandfather being chosen.

[DaveW]

No - I said I am a Messianic Gentile.  (I am not a Jew)

In other words, they have not been taught any differently?

You seem to take the fact that the 3 God Fearers kept a Jewish life to be a bad thing.  I take it as a very good thing.

What is it about "There is neither Jew nor Gentile etc. Galatians 3:28 that is so difficult to understand?

I could ask the same question.  You are taking it in a way it was NEVER meant to be taken - that God deleted distinctions. Since clearly male and female still exist - in the redeemed community, Jew and Gentile also still exist - IN THE REDEEMED COMMUNITY.  You cannot take part of the sentance and intrepret one way and another part differently.  Men and women have clear and distinct commands in NT scripture.  What makes you think that does not hold for Jews and Gentiles in the NT scripture as well?

FYI - genetic tests show many of the Cherokee to be of Jewish ancestry.  (no one know exactly how that works)

[DaveW]

Judaism today (any part of it) is a cult. Not believing in Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God you are lost.

OK - there are 2 kinds of cults - those who have hidden doctrines, practices and agendae; and those who are personality cults around an individual like Sun Yung Moon or David Koresh.

Which type does "Judaism" fit in? 


And where did you get the idea that ALL JUDAISMS reject the idea that Jesus is Messiah and Son of God?  New Covenant Judaism (Messianic) certainly believes in Jesus.

[DaveW]

Tyler - have you read the article I posted or looked at the book?

[Tyler]

DaveW: "And where did you get the idea that ALL JUDAISMS reject the idea that Jesus is Messiah and Son of God?  New Covenant Judaism (Messianic) certainly believes in Jesus."

Dave-- do you understand 2 Cor. 3:6-7 as the end of Judaism? If not why not?
What is it about "passed away" that you do not understand? A Jew without the Temple and law is like an Indian without a wigwam.

The Jew had their place in history bringing Jesus into the world through the seed of Abraham.
They (not all), were special or chosen for this purpose and this purpose only.
To contend that the alleged Jew of today is still the chosen of God is in essence to argue that the true Christ has not come.

Why are you still hung up on the Talmud and the Mishna? Why those old rabbis of the past were no more inspired than my old Cherokee grandfather commenting on canonical law with a snoot full of fire water.

Their hatred for Christianity is evil.
The Talmud deliberately twisted events and facts recorded in the Gospels.
Many of the references in this "Rag" about Jesus are so vulgar--they are unquotable on a forum. Yet, you hang on to this and refer to Judaism and Christianity as "kissing cousins."
"Messianic Jews" and "Messianic Gentiles." Kind of like Bud Abbott and Lou Costello "Whose on First."
Ever read Alan Dershowitz, professor of law at Harvard University on why Jesus of Nazareth "is not my messiah"? His logic comes from his faith as a "Jew" that Jesus was an imposter.

The fact that the Jewish rabbis from the close of the first century on down to now have attempted so many attacks upon Jesus helps to prove the realty of His earthly life.
Josephus Klausner, the note Talmudic scholar, and radical Jew writes from his "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus was born of the illegitimate union of Mary with a Roman soldier named "Panther." The Talmud offers the climax of vituperation by saying Jesus would be condemned in eternity to be thrown into boiling filth. (pp. 25,27).

No matter how you want to slice "cult" Dave ---Messianic Judaism hanging on to the Talmud, Mishna, Gamara as sound doctrine is a frolic in deceit. They are legends, trumped up by non believers whose hatred of the Lord comes unilaterally from the devil.
As Paul has written, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Eph. 6:12).

[notreligus]

DaveW: "And where did you get the idea that ALL JUDAISMS reject the idea that Jesus is Messiah and Son of God?  New Covenant Judaism (Messianic) certainly believes in Jesus."

Dave-- do you understand 2 Cor. 3:6-7 as the end of Judaism? If not why not?
What is it about "passed away" that you do not understand? A Jew without the Temple and law is like an Indian without a wigwam.

The Jew had their place in history bringing Jesus into the world through the seed of Abraham.
They (not all), were special or chosen for this purpose and this purpose only.
To contend that the alleged Jew of today is still the chosen of God is in essence to argue that the true Christ has not come.

Why are you still hung up on the Talmud and the Mishna? Why those old rabbis of the past were no more inspired than my old Cherokee grandfather commenting on canonical law with a snoot full of fire water.

Their hatred for Christianity is evil.
The Talmud deliberately twisted events and facts recorded in the Gospels.
Many of the references in this "Rag" about Jesus are so vulgar--they are unquotable on a forum. Yet, you hang on to this and refer to Judaism and Christianity as "kissing cousins."
"Messianic Jews" and "Messianic Gentiles." Kind of like Bud Abbott and Lou Costello "Whose on First."
Ever read Alan Dershowitz, professor of law at Harvard University on why Jesus of Nazareth "is not my messiah"? His logic comes from his faith as a "Jew" that Jesus was an imposter.

The fact that the Jewish rabbis from the close of the first century on down to now have attempted so many attacks upon Jesus helps to prove the realty of His earthly life.
Josephus Klausner, the note Talmudic scholar, and radical Jew writes from his "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus was born of the illegitimate union of Mary with a Roman soldier named "Panther." The Talmud offers the climax of vituperation by saying Jesus would be condemned in eternity to be thrown into boiling filth. (pp. 25,27).

No matter how you want to slice "cult" Dave ---Messianic Judaism hanging on to the Talmud, Mishna, Gamara as sound doctrine is a frolic in deceit. They are legends, trumped up by non believers whose hatred of the Lord comes unilaterally from the devil.
As Paul has written, For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Eph. 6:12).

Tyler,

Let's take this discussion over to the appropriate forum, the Messianic Judaism Forum.   

[DaveW]

Tyler,

Let's take this discussion over to the appropriate forum, the Messianic Judaism Forum.   

Done.  Here is the addy:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/debate-issues-related-to-messianic-judaism/tyler's-take-on-messianic-judaism/msg1054970230/#msg1054970230

[DaveW]

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of the Red Crecent Menace.