Purgatory - Again!

[Catholica]

Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe.  It should however be referenced accordingly.

It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.

They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.

The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.

Good grief Catholica, most of what you post here is sheer opinion.  Yours or someone else's.  The minute you make a statement other than a direct quote from the Scriptures it is nothing more than opinion.  And it really matters little that it is the opinion of someone who lived 2000 years ago or is still living today.

My opinions are those of the Church, which I have adopted as my own, and I back them up with scripture which I believe and see supporting them, and if challenged, I can respond coherently because I know my faith and I know the theology behind it all and have incorporated it into my life and being.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe.  It should however be referenced accordingly.

It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.

They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.

The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.

When sourced material contains scriptural references it may be presumed readers are capable of seeking out the scriptures so as to learn for themselves what is said.
And most people here offer sheer opinion as there is not a Biblical Scholar on these forums who are writing from their own credentialed perspective.

In truth, there is no merit in calling into question my posting of scripture when you have said you don't recall scripture as it reads so you Google to find what you're looking to say. In fact, there is no merit in your calling into question my faith or my knowledge of scripture.


Furthermore, it is contrary to the decorum of these forums to make a conscientious attack against my person and my faith. Rule 1.1, rule 1.3, rule 2.1b, rule 2.4 could be copied and pasted here to your attention and others who have aligned with your agenda.However, I believe this should be enough to remind people that this is a Christian community.

Comporting ones self as one bent on an agenda to harass, defame, and belittle, a member whom one takes issue with because the site owner afforded him the privilege of being a Moderator is not an example of the spirit we should all example as those who are alive in the spirit of Christ Jesus.

For Red Baker, I didn't respond because I figured you were caught up in the tide of discord others feed off of when focusing their contempt for me into recruitment of others.
I am me! I am not a sock account for any other member here. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.

I also hope, since this thread has gone on far enough with the personal attacks against myself, that those cease! So that the rules are no longer violated here.

Thank you.

[Adamski]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

[4WD]

Besides, there is nothing wrong with cutting and pasting if that is what you believe.  It should however be referenced accordingly.

It is. And always has been. And it has also been stated in certain posts that it is to further the dialog that that source is added. Because sometimes when someone makes a statement about a scripture or a faith tradition that is challenged because it is one's own words. Affording an outside resource that says the same thing demonstrates it is not just one persons opinion. The links provided in excerpted materials, or even full articles copied invoking Fair Use for education purposes, because it becomes necessary when people refuse to read links and excerpts and seek out more in that article linked, are noted too.

They don't add much to the discussion however, because the post author can't defend the reference material as he didn't write it, and the author of the reference material is not here to defend it himself.

The former is borne out by the inability of the poster to answer to refutations of the reference material with anything but sheer opinion.

Good grief Catholica, most of what you post here is sheer opinion.  Yours or someone else's.  The minute you make a statement other than a direct quote from the Scriptures it is nothing more than opinion.  And it really matters little that it is the opinion of someone who lived 2000 years ago or is still living today.

My opinions are those of the Church, which I have adopted as my own, and I back them up with scripture which I believe and see supporting them, and if challenged, I can respond coherently because I know my faith and I know the theology behind it all and have incorporated it into my life and being.

They are the opinions of the Catholic Church, not the church. That you do not understand even that is significant to the discussion.    And what you say about your opinions are no different than those of many, many non-Catholics.

[4WD]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

That notion is one of the major differences between the [false] Catholic doctrine of impartation of righteousness and the non-Catholic doctrine of imputation of righteousness.  But that is another topic.

[MeMyself]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

Why? Jesus clothing us in His robes of righteousness is not enough?

What happens in "purgatory" to purify you that God has not accomplished through the finished work of the Son, making us new and the good work He begins in us upon Salvation?

[Buster D Body Crab]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

It is unfortunate that you accept that and thereby deny the sufficiency and full efficacy of Christ's atoning sacrifice for all sin on the cross.

1 Corinthians 3:15 does not actually support Purgatory. Paul was a Pharisee before he found Christ on the road to Damascus. He was one who had the foremost education in Hebrew law overall. He knew there was no such place as Purgatory when he was a Jew and when he wrote to the church in Corinth, if the Christian reads the full chapter of 1 Corinthians 3, they realize he was not speaking of our needing to suffer fire after death to further purge or cleanse us of our sins.

Part of many Christians walk of faith is the study of many disciplines related to the faith. Soterology, Apologetics, etc...

An Apologetics Research Ministry I've found is a great resource to that end. Especially in the case of helping Christians to understand the real message in full context afforded in 1 Corinthians. Particularly with regard to chapter 3 in its entirety and since verse 15 is often cited by Roman Catholics as furthering the idea of Purgatory.


(Sic)"...1 Cor. 3:15 does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on "that day." Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire.  But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw.  What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved.  It has to do with rewards in heaven.

Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor. 4:5, "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God."   "

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

It is unfortunate that you accept that and thereby deny the sufficiency and full efficacy of Christ's atoning sacrifice for all sin on the cross.

1 Corinthians 3:15 does not actually support Purgatory. Paul was a Pharisee before he found Christ on the road to Damascus. He was one who had the foremost education in Hebrew law overall. He knew there was no such place as Purgatory when he was a Jew and when he wrote to the church in Corinth, if the Christian reads the full chapter of 1 Corinthians 3, they realize he was not speaking of our needing to suffer fire after death to further purge or cleanse us of our sins.

Part of many Christians walk of faith is the study of many disciplines related to the faith. Soterology, Apologetics, etc...

An Apologetics Research Ministry I've found is a great resource to that end. Especially in the case of helping Christians to understand the real message in full context afforded in 1 Corinthians. Particularly with regard to chapter 3 in its entirety and since verse 15 is often cited by Roman Catholics as furthering the idea of Purgatory.


(Sic)"...1 Cor. 3:15 does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on "that day." Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire.  But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw.  What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved.  It has to do with rewards in heaven.

Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor. 4:5, "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God."   "

I could have guessed you were reading CARM.

The article's first paragraph shows that the author doesn't even know what purgatory is.  If he did he wouldn't argue that "what is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved".  Everyone in purgatory is going to heaven.  Therefore his reasoning against 1 Cor. 3:15 doesn't do anything to show that the verse is not referring to purgatory.  And the quote from 1 Cor. 4:5 is not related to the issue at hand.

Furthermore the Jews in fact did at the time of the Christ, pray for the dead, for 11 months, and many still do so to this day.  You might be interested to learn about Judaism before you repeat stuff about the ways of the Jews.

Here is a quote from: http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm, emphasis mine:

Kaddish

Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner's prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ..." and continues in much that vein. The real mourner's prayer is El Molai Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.

Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?

After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d's injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.

Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

A person is permitted to recite Kaddish for other close relatives as well as parents, but only if his parents are dead.

See Mourners' Kaddish for the full text of the Mourners' Kaddish.

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

[MeMyself]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure?  The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.

[yogi bear]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure?  The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.

Yes sounds like hogwash to me also. I would think that someone professing to be Christian would better understand the power of their Savior !!!!

[4WD]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure?  The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.

We don't "become" His righteousness.  His righteousness is not imparted;  it is imputed.  That is one reason why the Catholic view of purgatory is needed in that theology.  They view His righteousness as being imparted.  And that can't really happen, either before or after death.  We can be forgiven our sins and have Jesus' righteousness imputed to us.  Our sins can not be undone and thereby have righteousness imparted.  It says that God will remember our sins no more; it doesn't say that they no longer exist.  We committed the sins.  That cannot be undone.  That would require changing the past.  That doesn't happen.

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure?  The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.

Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

This is no "last ditch effort" but rather a part of the Gospel.  Our participation in Christ's sufferings makes us pure.

"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).

"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)

Why, if we are righteous as Christ is righteous, would we strive for holiness?  And why would that holiness, which we must strive be necessary to see the Lord?

"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)

If we are perfectly righteous already, we would not need to be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish.  We would be without spot or blemish already.

[MeMyself]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure?  The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.

We don't "become" His righteousness.  His righteousness is not imparted;  it is imputed.  That is one reason why the Catholic view of purgatory is needed in that theology.  They view His righteousness as being imparted.  And that can't really happen, either before or after death.  We can be forgiven our sins and have Jesus' righteousness imputed to us.  Our sins can not be undone and thereby have righteousness imparted.  It says that God will remember our sins no more; it doesn't say that they no longer exist.  We committed the sins.  That cannot be undone.  That would require changing the past.  That doesn't happen.

The Word says this:

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[notreligus]

Red, my original post has been erased.

Why is there a cover-up going on in a Christian forum?   

I'm not letting this go until somebody comes clean.

[MeMyself]

What exactly do you feel is going on here?

[chosenone]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. 

[Alan]

Red, my original post has been erased.

Why is there a cover-up going on in a Christian forum?   

I'm not letting this go until somebody comes clean. 

This is no place for your personal opinions regarding other members, further discussion of this sort resulting in off topic posts will result in warnings being issued.

[chosenone]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you

We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. 

The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him.  If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.

[chosenone]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you

We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.

My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him 

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you

We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.

My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him 

Neither of those things you say here preclude purgatory.

[chosenone]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. 

The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him.  If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.

Now that is quite ironic, being that so many of the beliefs of the RC church are made up from the traditions of men. Nope its what God says in the Bible. Its also what many believers on their death bed have said, that they have seen Jesus and that he has come to welcome them. Praise Him.   

[chosenone]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you

We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.

My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him 

Neither of those things you say here preclude purgatory.

Not once has a place like that been mentioned in the Bible, its a completely man made belief that apparently wasnt thought up or invented till the 3rd century, and was done so the priests could make money from the very gullible by saying they will pray for those who have died if they hand over their money. VERY godly I dont think.    I honestly cant believe that anyone would fall for that to be honest, but they didnt have Bibles then I suppose they knew no better. 

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. 

The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him.  If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.

Now that is quite ironic, being that so many of the beliefs of the RC church are made up from the traditions of men. Nope its what God says in the Bible. Its also what many believers on their death bed have said, that they have seen Jesus and that he has come to welcome them. Praise Him. 

I don't see Jesus coming to welcome people in scripture?

People are also visited by Mary on their deathbed.

It is not ironic at all.  The "Tradition" the Catholic Church believes are the teachings of the apostles handed down, not traditions introduced by men.

It is not what God says in the Bible, and you can't even produce the scripture to show that it is.

[Buster D Body Crab]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you

We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.

My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him 

Neither of those things you say here preclude purgatory.

Not according to what you accept of Roman Catholic teaching, as you've stated. You accept what the church tells you.

However, there is nothing in the scriptures that in and of themselves prescribe Purgatory as the Roman Catholic church teaches Roman Catholics to believe.

I for one am not trying to change the mind of any Roman Catholic. I accept that they, as Roman Catholic member(s) here have stated, agree to accept what the RCC tells them to.

Rather, I am refuting the Roman Catholic that attempts to belittle Protestants for not being Roman Catholic. As has been demonstrated in numerous threads and texts posted by Roman Catholic(s).

This because certain Roman Catholics attempt to use the scriptures non-Roman Catholics hold in Sola Fide,(Faith Alone), something which the RCC holds is anathema per the council of Trent's decree long centuries ago,and as Sola Scriptura, (Scripture Alone), to deny that anyone not Roman Catholic are not truly saved nor are they Christian. As has been implied numerous times in many threads throughout this forum.

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

Strange that the Rich Man in the Luke 16 account of the Rich Man and Lazarus did not find much comfort in it if that is where he was.  If that is not where he was, then why wasn't it?  Quite obviously he was very contrite, repentant and confessant.

That is because that is a vision of hell not purgatory there is a divide that can't be reached.

Purgatory as 1 Corinthians says is saved by fire: 

Remember how you can't even look at God in the Old Testament while in heaven you will see the full vision of God and nothing impure can enter heaven and I still need a little purification

If you are His child, then you are washed clean through the blood of Jesus. Or is that not enough for you

We don't subscribe to your theology so contradictory to the Bible verses that winsome posted.

My Bible says that I am washed clean through his death and resurrection, and that when I leave my body I will be with Him 

Neither of those things you say here preclude purgatory.

Not once has a place like that been mentioned in the Bible, its a completely man made belief that apparently wasnt thought up or invented till the 3rd century, and was done so the priests could make money from the very gullible by saying they will pray for those who have died if they hand over their money. VERY godly I dont think.    I honestly cant believe that anyone would fall for that to be honest, but they didnt have Bibles then I suppose they knew no better. 

The necessity of it's existence is all over scripture, as demonstrated by winsome. 

Your conspiracy theories about it's origin are blasphemy.

The Catholic Church wrote the Bible and determined it's canon.  They had Bibles alright, but the doctrine of purgatory precedes the New Testament and even precedes Christ's coming, a fact that no one here has even begun to deal with.

[chosenone]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. 

The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him.  If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.

Now that is quite ironic, being that so many of the beliefs of the RC church are made up from the traditions of men. Nope its what God says in the Bible. Its also what many believers on their death bed have said, that they have seen Jesus and that he has come to welcome them. Praise Him. 

I don't see Jesus coming to welcome people in scripture?

People are also visited by Mary on their deathbed.

It is not ironic at all.  The "Tradition" the Catholic Church believes are the teachings of the apostles handed down, not traditions introduced by men.

It is not what God says in the Bible, and you can't even produce the scripture to show that it is.

Fallen angels can appear as Mary and have done many times to fool people.
I have quoted scripture several times, and there isnt a single one that supports this man made teaching.
The Blood of Jesus is of course more than enough to save us completely and totally. Believing in this fictional place is saying that Jesus' sacrifice wasnt enough, but it was and it is. 

[winsome]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

How can what Jesus did for us, to atone for us, be lacking that a last ditch effort must be made to make us pure?  The Word says we are clothed with Christ's robes of righteousness, that we become His righteousness.

We don't "become" His righteousness.  His righteousness is not imparted;  it is imputed.  That is one reason why the Catholic view of purgatory is needed in that theology.  They view His righteousness as being imparted.  And that can't really happen, either before or after death.  We can be forgiven our sins and have Jesus' righteousness imputed to us.  Our sins can not be undone and thereby have righteousness imparted.  It says that God will remember our sins no more; it doesn't say that they no longer exist.  We committed the sins.  That cannot be undone.  That would require changing the past.  That doesn't happen.

The Word says this:

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.  Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2Cor 5:20-6:1).

There are problems in Corinth. Paul is pleading with them to be reconciled to God (vs 5:20) and not to accept the grace of God in vain (vs 6:1). In between he explains that Christ died so that we says we might become the righteousness of God - not that God can stick a false label on them saying 'righteous'.
God has the quality of righteousness which he infuses into man and so we can become righteous with his righteousness.

When scripture refers to people being righteous it is because they actually were righteous and it says why they were righteous – because they were blameless, upright, keeping God's commandments.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. (Gen 6:9)

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God, and turned away from evil. (Job 1:1)

And they [Zechariah and Elizabeth] were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. (Lk 1:6)

[Buster D Body Crab]

The necessity of it's existence is all over scripture, as demonstrated by winsome. 

Winsome demonstrates and has defended his necessity to accept that Purgatory exists, using scripture.

Jesus Christ demonstrated on the cross at calvary that we do not need to be purged, cleansed, of any clinging sins or earthly offenses after we're dead when we are made new in the light and love of Jesus Christ and that sacrifice that delivered that message at the cross. And by God's grace.

Your conspiracy theories about it's origin are blasphemy.

No, it is not. It is the word of God that tells all people about the prophecy, and the appointed mission, and the accomplishment of same, at the cross by Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church wrote the Bible and determined it's canon.  They had Bibles alright, but the doctrine of purgatory precedes the New Testament and even precedes Christ's coming, a fact that no one here has even begun to deal with.

You are correct in that the philosophy as relates to what the RCC calls Purgatory did indeed precede the New Testament. The majority of which was authored by the Apostle Paul, not the Apostle Peter. However, that philosophy has its roots in paganism.

Christians receive the testimony of the new testimony, the New Testament that Jesus Christ was born, lived, and died in order to fulfill.
And had he failed on the cross to take the sins of the world upon himself we would need something more to save our souls. But he did not and therefore we do not.

Please understand this. No Christian is obligated to incorporate the dictates of the Roman's Catholic church into their faith in order to be saved. And no, that is not saying that Roman Catholics are not Christian. It is saying that Jesus Christ, the reason we refer to ourselves as Christians due to our faith and trust in him and his message, preceded the Roman Catholic church.

And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius  in the province of Milan.

This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.

Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.

This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.

[winsome]

And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius  in the province of Milan.

This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.

Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.

This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.

The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.

When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp


The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.

P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?

[Buster D Body Crab]

And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius  in the province of Milan.

This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.

Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.

This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.

The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.

When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp


The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.

P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?

I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church.  Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.

Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.

However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".

Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.

Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome.  But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.


Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.

There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.

God Bless.

[Buster D Body Crab]

And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius  in the province of Milan.

This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.

Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.

This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.

The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.

When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp


The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.

P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?

I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church.  Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.

Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church. Nor did he teach what is now practiced and promoted in his name by the Roman Catholic church. Purgatory just one example.

However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".

Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.

Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome.  But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.


Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.

There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.

God Bless.

[winsome]

And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius  in the province of Milan.

This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.

Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.

This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.

The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.

When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp


The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.

P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?

I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church.  Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.

Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.

However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".

Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.

Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome.  But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.


Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.

There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.

God Bless.

As I thought. It was a dead cat on the table but it didn't achieve it's aims.

You say "Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church."but failed in your attempt to show who did.