Purgatory - Again!

[4WD]

And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius  in the province of Milan.

This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.

Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.

This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.

The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.

When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp


The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.

P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?

I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church.  Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.

Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.

However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".

Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.

Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome.  But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.


Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.

There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.

God Bless.

As I thought. It was a dead cat on the table but it didn't achieve it's aims.

You say "Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church."but failed in your attempt to show who did.

Constantine.   

[4WD]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. 

The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him.  If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.

Catholica, you are the last one that should argue against taking comfort in a tradition of men.  That is the basis for a good bit of your theology.  You even taut it as equal along side of the Scriptures.

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. 

The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him.  If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.

Catholica, you are the last one that should argue against taking comfort in a tradition of men.  That is the basis for a good bit of your theology.  You even taut it as equal along side of the Scriptures.

Sacred Tradition is the teaching of God, handed down by Jesus through the apostles.  It is altogether a different thing than what scripture refers to as "traditions of men".

[4WD]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. 

The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him.  If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.

Catholica, you are the last one that should argue against taking comfort in a tradition of men.  That is the basis for a good bit of your theology.  You even taut it as equal along side of the Scriptures.

Sacred Tradition is the teaching of God, handed down by Jesus through the apostles.  It is altogether a different thing than what scripture refers to as "traditions of men".

So you would claim and so you would like to believe.  The Pharisees felt pretty much the same about their traditions.  But Jesus railed against them.  He was pretty adamant that such traditions were outside Scripture, speaking only of the Law, the Prophets and Psalms.

[Catholica]

I really like the concept of purgatory I find it very comforting

How so?

I don't know if Adamski overlooked your question or not, but with all the stuff flying around here I consider it likely.

I too find it comforting, because I know that even should I fail to become perfect by the end of this life by the grace of Jesus Christ and my co-operation with it, which is altogether likely, God has given us purgatory to still bring people who are not perfect into heaven.  It is his means of perfecting us.  Because nothing impure can enter heaven.  Rev. 21:27.

What I find comforting is that when I die I will go straight to be with Him. 

The Bible doesn't say that when you die you will go straight to be with Him.  If you want to take comfort in that tradition of men, that is between you and God.

Catholica, you are the last one that should argue against taking comfort in a tradition of men.  That is the basis for a good bit of your theology.  You even taut it as equal along side of the Scriptures.

Sacred Tradition is the teaching of God, handed down by Jesus through the apostles.  It is altogether a different thing than what scripture refers to as "traditions of men".

So you would claim and so you would like to believe.  The Pharisees felt pretty much the same about their traditions.  But Jesus railed against them.  He was pretty adamant that such traditions were outside Scripture, speaking only of the Law, the Prophets and Psalms.

Paul promotes oral tradition.  Are you one who believes that Paul and Jesus taught different gospels? Just checking, because some non-Catholics out there do.

Jesus was referring to practices that "bypassed the commandments of God".  For example, the Jews were commanded to honor their father and mother and this meant supporting them financially.  To bypass this commandment (and keep their money) they "dedicated their money to the temple".  That is the tradition that Jesus is railing against in scripture.    See Mark 7.

Since Jesus and Paul preached the SAME gospel, and Paul explicitly promotes obeying oral teachings (2 Thess. 2:15) and because one can see that Jesus is referring to a particular type of tradition, one can see that in fact Oral Sacred Tradition is NOT railed against by Jesus.

That is not even taking into account the FACT that before the NT was put to paper, the entirety of the Gospel was maintained in Sacred Oral Tradition.

It is preposterous, therefore, to interpret Jesus as saying that the practice of Oral Tradition is wrong. 

Not only that, but there are many things in Scripture, references to events and prophecies, that are not actually written in scripture but are part of Oral Tradition.  These include, the battle over the Body of Moses in the book of Jude, the "Chair of Moses" referred to by Jesus in Matthew 23, and the prophecy "He shall be called a Nazarene" referenced in Matthew 2:23.

[winsome]

And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius  in the province of Milan.

This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.

Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.

This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.

The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.

When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp


The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.

P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?

I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church.  Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.

Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.

However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".

Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.

Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome.  But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.


Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.

There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.

God Bless.

As I thought. It was a dead cat on the table but it didn't achieve it's aims.

You say "Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church."but failed in your attempt to show who did.

Constantine.   

Prove it.

[Red Baker]

For Red Baker, I didn't respond because I figured you were caught up in the tide of discord others feed off of when focusing their contempt for me into recruitment of others. I am me! I am not a sock account for any other member here. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.
I also hope, since this thread has gone on far enough with the personal attacks against myself, that those cease! So that the rules are no longer violated here.

Good enough for me~I got blamed for a remark that I DID NOT say~But all has been erased.   It said:

Post: I think that Buster joined the forum with a deceptive "story".  That being said, I have yet to see him use his own knowledge of the Bible to respond to anyone.

These words were NOT written by me~but by Catholica I believe. I would like an apology from someone, or at least a correction. 

[4WD]

And if, as has been claimed, the RCC is God's church on earth and it is that argument that may arrive now to say again that the establishment of that church is the sole/soul reason for Jesus coming to earth to fulfill prophecy and his mission to establish a covenant with people in the first place, then by God's will the RCC would have been empowered very shortly after Jesus departed to be with the Father. Not nearly 289 years later due to the Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. being drafted by Emperor Constantine, with the assistance of the eastern Emperor Licinius  in the province of Milan.

This is to state in the historic record that the RCC is well aware of that contrary to what some may hope to assert, there were saved Heaven bound Christians for nearly 300 years before the birth of the Roman's Catholic idea of what Christianity means. They just had to risk their lives to hold to their faith, and often did, because Rome made their faith illegal and often prosecuted as a death penalty offense.

Interesting how an authority that first killed God in human form later built a church and a religious doctrine to his name.

This is just another discipline that is of interest to many Christians. Christian history. It's fascinating.

The Edict of Milan did not create the Catholic Church. It ended the persecution of Christians and gave them the same legal rights as pagans.

When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/source/edict-milan.asp


The Catholic Church was founded by Christ almost 300 years before the Edict of Milan.

P.S. What has this to do with Purgatory? Is it just throwing a dead cat on the table?

I understand that is what you believe because that is what the Roman Catholic church teaches you.
And this has everything to do with Purgatory, as many know, because Purgatory is a teaching of the Roman Catholic church.  Therefore the time-line as pertains to the Roman Catholic church establishment is pertinent to when Purgatory was introduced as an extra-Biblical doctrine and by the Roman's Catholic church.

Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church.

However, it is true that Jesus did establish the catholic faith. And that is at the core of his teachings meaning all faithful to his gospel are catholic, members of the universal covenant, the church being the body of Christ believers. That is why there is a difference between the Roman Catholic church and her establishment on earth. And the Greek katholikos, "on the whole, all embracing".

Catholic in the years after Jesus ascended to the Father described the body of believers as a whole.

Roman Catholic describes a body of churches in alignment with the Bishop of Rome.  But you know this. It is what the Roman Catholic church teaches as to its authority as holy mother church.


Edit to add: I am going to depart this conversation now. It is only going in circles.

There is enough information posted by other Protestants so as to inform any seeker who may be looking for scriptural support in either case, Roman Catholicism or Protestantism, to proceed of their own accord in study.

God Bless.

As I thought. It was a dead cat on the table but it didn't achieve it's aims.

You say "Jesus did not establish the Roman Catholic church."but failed in your attempt to show who did.

Constantine.   

Prove it.

It's tradition.   

[Catholica]

For Red Baker, I didn't respond because I figured you were caught up in the tide of discord others feed off of when focusing their contempt for me into recruitment of others. I am me! I am not a sock account for any other member here. I hope that satisfies your curiosity.
I also hope, since this thread has gone on far enough with the personal attacks against myself, that those cease! So that the rules are no longer violated here.

Good enough for me~I got blamed for a remark that I DID NOT say~But all has been erased.   It said:

Post: I think that Buster joined the forum with a deceptive "story".  That being said, I have yet to see him use his own knowledge of the Bible to respond to anyone.

These words were NOT written by me~but by Catholica I believe. I would like an apology from someone, or at least a correction.

That was me, and if someone attributed this to Red, then they do owe him an apology.

[Buster D Body Crab]

As Red Baker has said his errors were reported and addressed, and the mistake attributed to him were corrected by staff.

Let's let this thread move forward. Or if the OP author requests, it can be closed because it has run its course.

[Catholica]

I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed.  He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!

[winsome]

I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed.  He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!

There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.

[4WD]

I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed.  He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!

There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.

I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP.  I stopped with that.

[Buster D Body Crab]

I read that.
Many have responded to the OP.After an accrual of these many pages that should be obvious enough.

[Catholica]

I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed.  He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!

There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.

I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP.  I stopped with that.

You didn't address a single point though, just stated an opinion and didn't address any of the scripture winsome provided.

The kind of reply that we are looking for is one that addresses winsome's points in his post.

[4WD]

I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed.  He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!

There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.

I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP.  I stopped with that.

You didn't address a single point though, just stated an opinion and didn't address any of the scripture winsome provided.

The kind of reply that we are looking for is one that addresses winsome's points in his post.

I did address them.  There is no mention of purgatory in any of them.  And so far as I am concerned there is not even a suggestion of a purgatory in any of them.  Now you can disagree with me about that and I can accept that.

[Catholica]

I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed.  He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!

There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.

I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP.  I stopped with that.

You didn't address a single point though, just stated an opinion and didn't address any of the scripture winsome provided.

The kind of reply that we are looking for is one that addresses winsome's points in his post.

I did address them.  There is no mention of purgatory in any of them.  And so far as I am concerned there is not even a suggestion of a purgatory in any of them.  Now you can disagree with me about that and I can accept that.

That's not addressing them, sorry.

That is as useless a response as me saying about your post,

"There was not a complete sentence in your post.  Not one.  You can disagree with me about that and I can accept that."

[Buster D Body Crab]

Michael F. Ross is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was reared as a Roman Catholic and studied in high school for the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the Divine Word Seminary, in Perrysburg, Ohio.


This article first appeared in the Practical Hermeneutics column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 33, number 03 (2010). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

The doctrine of purgatory remains a troubling idea for many Roman Catholics. One bulletin from a local Catholic church included the following: "Why do we pray for souls in Purgatory? When we die in God's friendship, we know that we'll eventually go to heaven. However, if we haven't properly atoned for certain sins, we have to be purified in Purgatory first. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls it, 'a final cleansing of human imperfections before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.' We pray for the souls in Purgatory, especially during the month of November, to help them pass through to heaven faster than they would on their own."1 Some Catholics question this doctrine, and more than a few challenge its legitimacy, based on their understanding of Scripture. At the Web site  www.catholic.com, a site devoted to "Catholic answers, Catholic apologetics, and Catholic evangelism," Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth Howell defend the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.2 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."3

Article continues and contains subject header discussions pertaining to:
Four False Ideas.
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation.
Second Maccabees 12:39-46 and Prayers for the Dead.
First Peter 3:18-22 and the Idea of Post-Death Probation.
Matthew 12:32 and Salvation after Death.
The Laws of Hermeneutics

Full Article Linked

This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.


The family of Christ I know can pursue this study in keeping within the rules of the forum and the dignities afforded our Christian community in the body of Christ. 
I look forward to your thoughts.

[Catholica]

Michael F. Ross is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was reared as a Roman Catholic and studied in high school for the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the Divine Word Seminary, in Perrysburg, Ohio.


This article first appeared in the Practical Hermeneutics column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 33, number 03 (2010). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

The doctrine of purgatory remains a troubling idea for many Roman Catholics. One bulletin from a local Catholic church included the following: "Why do we pray for souls in Purgatory? When we die in God's friendship, we know that we'll eventually go to heaven. However, if we haven't properly atoned for certain sins, we have to be purified in Purgatory first. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls it, 'a final cleansing of human imperfections before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.' We pray for the souls in Purgatory, especially during the month of November, to help them pass through to heaven faster than they would on their own."1 Some Catholics question this doctrine, and more than a few challenge its legitimacy, based on their understanding of Scripture. At the Web site  www.catholic.com, a site devoted to "Catholic answers, Catholic apologetics, and Catholic evangelism," Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth Howell defend the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.2 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."3

Article continues and contains subject header discussions pertaining to:
Four False Ideas.
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation.
Second Maccabees 12:39-46 and Prayers for the Dead.
First Peter 3:18-22 and the Idea of Post-Death Probation.
Matthew 12:32 and Salvation after Death.
The Laws of Hermeneutics

Full Article Linked

This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.


The family of Christ I know can pursue this study in keeping within the rules of the forum and the dignities afforded our Christian community in the body of Christ. 
I look forward to your thoughts.

Sure, you can have our thoughts, right after you address winsome's original 3 posts.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Michael F. Ross is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was reared as a Roman Catholic and studied in high school for the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the Divine Word Seminary, in Perrysburg, Ohio.


This article first appeared in the Practical Hermeneutics column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 33, number 03 (2010). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

The doctrine of purgatory remains a troubling idea for many Roman Catholics. One bulletin from a local Catholic church included the following: "Why do we pray for souls in Purgatory? When we die in God's friendship, we know that we'll eventually go to heaven. However, if we haven't properly atoned for certain sins, we have to be purified in Purgatory first. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls it, 'a final cleansing of human imperfections before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.' We pray for the souls in Purgatory, especially during the month of November, to help them pass through to heaven faster than they would on their own."1 Some Catholics question this doctrine, and more than a few challenge its legitimacy, based on their understanding of Scripture. At the Web site  www.catholic.com, a site devoted to "Catholic answers, Catholic apologetics, and Catholic evangelism," Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth Howell defend the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.2 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."3

Article continues and contains subject header discussions pertaining to:
Four False Ideas.
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation.
Second Maccabees 12:39-46 and Prayers for the Dead.
First Peter 3:18-22 and the Idea of Post-Death Probation.
Matthew 12:32 and Salvation after Death.
The Laws of Hermeneutics

Full Article Linked

This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.


The family of Christ I know can pursue this study in keeping within the rules of the forum and the dignities afforded our Christian community in the body of Christ. 
I look forward to your thoughts.

Sure, you can have our thoughts, right after you address winsome's original 3 posts.

It's a curious thing that you speak in terms of "we" when you invoke winsome. As if you're speaking for him.

And I realize you wish to ignore it but the fact remains. People have addressed the OP repeatedly. That you both do not appreciate the responses you've received and from a Biblical standpoint is not anyone's fault.

Posting in the forum dedicated to Catholicism the edicts as relates to the churches dictates in matters of Purgatory and asking Protestants to refute it is just what has been done from a Protestant perspective.
It is interesting though that you and winsome would post such things in a forum dedicated to what the RCC teaches about such topics as this.
In truth I've wondered myself why I would enter into this forum to debate what a Roman Catholic believes. You're preaching here to fellow Catholics. Protestants don't accept Purgatory exists so why would I want to talk you out of what you accept is awaiting you and all Roman Catholics when you die?

Yet, page after page you and winsome ignore the posts that contend Purgatory is not an absolute that must be accepted as holy writ by Protestants and you then attempt to argue that that is not an answer to the OP.

Yes, it is. What it appears you wish to do is throttle non-Roman Catholics religious perspective. And this do to your admission and perhaps this is your method of somehow accomplishing some sort of mission to that end. That you believe the whole world must be Roman Catholic in order to be saved and do God's will.

If you think you're going to brow beat Christians because they do not succumb to your insistence that the holy see is God's repository and RCC is the only true path to God you're on the wrong path.

No matter what your church tells you to believe at the peril of your soul and the threat of excommunication should you fall out of lock step, Purgatory is not something Jesus Christ taught us about. Purgatory, as defined by the RCC, renounces the full price Jesus paid on the cross for the sins of those who hold faith in his sacrifice.
Scripture aplenty proves that. And it doesn't have to be to your liking to be absolutely true.

Jesus wasn't a Roman Catholic.

And based on what I said about asking myself why any Protestant would enter into a Catholics forum and debate what they believe, I think I'll bow out and let the Catholics argue. Protestants don't believe in Purgatory, Mariology, Priest emissaries, closet confessionals, etc...

What are we really doing here hoping to prove we're right about that to people who do not agree?

[Catholica]

Michael F. Ross is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. He was reared as a Roman Catholic and studied in high school for the Roman Catholic priesthood, at the Divine Word Seminary, in Perrysburg, Ohio.


This article first appeared in the Practical Hermeneutics column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 33, number 03 (2010). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: http://www.equip.org

The doctrine of purgatory remains a troubling idea for many Roman Catholics. One bulletin from a local Catholic church included the following: "Why do we pray for souls in Purgatory? When we die in God's friendship, we know that we'll eventually go to heaven. However, if we haven't properly atoned for certain sins, we have to be purified in Purgatory first. The Catechism of the Catholic Church calls it, 'a final cleansing of human imperfections before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.' We pray for the souls in Purgatory, especially during the month of November, to help them pass through to heaven faster than they would on their own."1 Some Catholics question this doctrine, and more than a few challenge its legitimacy, based on their understanding of Scripture. At the Web site  www.catholic.com, a site devoted to "Catholic answers, Catholic apologetics, and Catholic evangelism," Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth Howell defend the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.2 "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."3

Article continues and contains subject header discussions pertaining to:
Four False Ideas.
First Corinthians 3:13-14 and the Idea of Purgation.
Second Maccabees 12:39-46 and Prayers for the Dead.
First Peter 3:18-22 and the Idea of Post-Death Probation.
Matthew 12:32 and Salvation after Death.
The Laws of Hermeneutics

Full Article Linked

This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.


The family of Christ I know can pursue this study in keeping within the rules of the forum and the dignities afforded our Christian community in the body of Christ. 
I look forward to your thoughts.

Sure, you can have our thoughts, right after you address winsome's original 3 posts.

It's a curious thing that you speak in terms of "we" when you invoke winsome. As if you're speaking for him.

And I realize you wish to ignore it but the fact remains. People have addressed the OP repeatedly. That you both do not appreciate the responses you've received and from a Biblical standpoint is not anyone's fault.

Posting in the forum dedicated to Catholicism the edicts as relates to the churches dictates in matters of Purgatory and asking Protestants to refute it is just what has been done from a Protestant perspective.
It is interesting though that you and winsome would post such things in a forum dedicated to what the RCC teaches about such topics as this.
In truth I've wondered myself why I would enter into this forum to debate what a Roman Catholic believes. You're preaching here to fellow Catholics. Protestants don't accept Purgatory exists so why would I want to talk you out of what you accept is awaiting you and all Roman Catholics when you die?

Yet, page after page you and winsome ignore the posts that contend Purgatory is not an absolute that must be accepted as holy writ by Protestants and you then attempt to argue that that is not an answer to the OP.

Yes, it is. What it appears you wish to do is throttle non-Roman Catholics religious perspective. And this do to your admission and perhaps this is your method of somehow accomplishing some sort of mission to that end. That you believe the whole world must be Roman Catholic in order to be saved and do God's will.

If you think you're going to brow beat Christians because they do not succumb to your insistence that the holy see is God's repository and RCC is the only true path to God you're on the wrong path.

No matter what your church tells you to believe at the peril of your soul and the threat of excommunication should you fall out of lock step, Purgatory is not something Jesus Christ taught us about. Purgatory, as defined by the RCC, renounces the full price Jesus paid on the cross for the sins of those who hold faith in his sacrifice.
Scripture aplenty proves that. And it doesn't have to be to your liking to be absolutely true.

Jesus wasn't a Roman Catholic.

And based on what I said about asking myself why any Protestant would enter into a Catholics forum and debate what they believe, I think I'll bow out and let the Catholics argue. Protestants don't believe in Purgatory, Mariology, Priest emissaries, closet confessionals, etc...

What are we really doing here hoping to prove we're right about that to people who do not agree?

You could just say that you don't know scripture well enough to refute the original post.  After all, you just were gifted an Amplified Bible this year and want to learn about the Christian religions.  No one is going to hold it against you if you just say that you haven't read or studied scripture well enough to respond.  We'll just wait for someone who has.

[kensington]

WOW... what world do you live in Catholica?  You insist on setting up scenarios that include this type of thing.  There is an OP, there are plenty of answers... yes truthful refute to the subject.  But, you just denounce and denounce because you refuse to accept that someone has given clear response. 

It's not that anyone "Hasn't" answered the challenge, it's that you refuse to see it.  It's not that anyone has no answers for you, you refuse to read them.  It's not that you have not been given truth, it's that you reject it.  Sadly.  Day in and day out... time and time again.

And WHY are you allowed to continually insult other posters, implying they are uneducated, unworthy, ignorant or liars??  Why is this being allowed day in and day out?   

Why are you being allowed to imply that those of us who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are not saved because we are not Catholic?  Why does this continue?  Endless jabbing at our salvation.  You do it daily.

[winsome]

WOW... what world do you live in Catholica?  You insist on setting up scenarios that include this type of thing.  There is an OP, there are plenty of answers... yes truthful refute to the subject.  But, you just denounce and denounce because you refuse to accept that someone has given clear response. 

It's not that anyone "Hasn't" answered the challenge, it's that you refuse to see it.  It's not that anyone has no answers for you, you refuse to read them.  It's not that you have not been given truth, it's that you reject it.  Sadly.  Day in and day out... time and time again.

And WHY are you allowed to continually insult other posters, implying they are uneducated, unworthy, ignorant or liars??  Why is this being allowed day in and day out?   

Why are you being allowed to imply that those of us who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are not saved because we are not Catholic?  Why does this continue?  Endless jabbing at our salvation.  You do it daily.

Really? What world do you live in?

I can't see that anyone has actually tackled the points I made and the scriptures I used to make them.

If they are wrong why not show me?

[kensington]

PS... There is NO Purgatory in scripture...  it's based on an Eschatological idea, derived by men who read the scriptures and decided they needed such a thing.  It has no factual backup in scripture. NONE.  It says so clearly in the Catholic Encyclopedia under "Purgatory"...  Published by Nelson, Revised and updated version.

So, we must then be clear that there is no Purgatory for Protestants, as for us... "To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD" is and always will be good enough for us by faith alone. As we are saved by grace.

But, for Catholics who rely on works to gain grace and and this is another work they must pass through before Heaven. 

I don't mind if they want to be purged after death.  I personally am looking forward to going right to be with my Lord forever.  I don't know how long it will take them to get there or is some of them ever will.  I guess it's safe to say, since they rely on this "Purging" for sins that are not covered by the blood and the grace of God, it could be a long time, or never.  Depending on who it is.

I prefer to believe in God's truth, rather than men's fairy tales for my eternity.  And since there are just TOO MANY scriptures to list that confirm that the saved will go from life to being with God in eternity... I won't post them.  And since there is NO factual proof in scripture there is a purgatory, we can't post them. 

It's safe for me to assume, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" Is good enough.   

[Catholica]

WOW... what world do you live in Catholica?  You insist on setting up scenarios that include this type of thing.  There is an OP, there are plenty of answers... yes truthful refute to the subject.  But, you just denounce and denounce because you refuse to accept that someone has given clear response.

Can you repost what you consider a "clear response" that addresses winsome's points?  Maybe I missed it?  Something more than a statement of opinion, for example, a quote of what winsome posted and a point he made and a demonstration of how that isn't true?

It's not that anyone "Hasn't" answered the challenge, it's that you refuse to see it.  It's not that anyone has no answers for you, you refuse to read them.  It's not that you have not been given truth, it's that you reject it.  Sadly.  Day in and day out... time and time again.

I don't reject the truth.  And I read the posts, I've read them over and over again.  90% of them are opinions that don't reference any scripture, except for the ones from me and winsome.  There are a few that do, and those we answer and demonstrate how they don't preclude purgatory.  But there are none that actually address the points winsome made, unless I am missing something.  And that's why I request that you post them here.

And WHY are you allowed to continually insult other posters, implying they are uneducated, unworthy, ignorant or liars??  Why is this being allowed day in and day out? 

I rarely call someone ignorant, but if someone is ignorant, then they should be told it.  Can you find a place where I called someone ignorant?

Being ignorant is not a shameful thing.  If someone thinks that someone else believes or practices something they don't, then that person is ignorant.  No shame in that.  The Christian should seek to become educated.

As for implying that someone is uneducated, I've implied that about Buster only because of things he has said about himself.  Why is there anything wrong with reminding him?

As for unworthy, I don't know what you are talking about, if people feel that I am saying they are unworthy because of the answers I give to questions they ask me about Christian teaching, then that is not really on me.  I wouldn't tell someone that they are unworthy directly because I don't know the state of their soul; I only expound Catholic teaching.

As for calling him a liar, I apologize.  I have been warned.  I don't do that day in and day out.  I will just take what he said about himself at face value.

Why are you being allowed to imply that those of us who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ are not saved because we are not Catholic?  Why does this continue?  Endless jabbing at our salvation.  You do it daily.

I don't.  Someone asked me what the Catholic Church teaches, and I responded.  I don't use it as a weapon.  And the spirit of the rule around here is to not belittle people saying they are unsaved.  If I answer a question about what the Catholic Church teaches, that's not what I am doing. 

Tell me, do you think a person should be banned if someone asks them what they believe about their salvation, and they give an answer according to what they believe based on general principles?

The question is then more heinous than the response might be if the response did not affirm their salvation; it would be an attempt to get someone banned.  That is a tactic called "brinking" and is against the rules in this forum.

[winsome]

This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.

Actually it started as a off-topic comment in the Theology Forum to which doorknocker objected so I said I would start a thread here.

As this is a particularly Catholic topic it seemed more appropriate to discuss it in the Catholic Forum. All Christians may post here.

If I wanted to chat to Catholics only it would have gone in the Catholic Safe House.

[kensington]

Catholica... I don't think you should be banned. I think you should stop being so rude and arrogant to others. 

You said the will of God is for all men to be Catholic.  Give me ONE scripture that says that.  And I don't mean we should all be part of God's church... the body of Christ, the Bride of the Lamb. 

I mean give me one scripture that God wills us to be Catholic, the religion you expound.  The mass, the saints, the statues, the Mary adoration, all the rites and rituals that you practice.  Where is ONE scripture that says we are called to join that religion.  We are all called by the will of God to be SAVED, not Catholic. 

You also said that if men do not join the CC, the means by which God created for us to be saved, we would not be.  Show me ONE verse that says that we are saved by "THE" Church... any church. Or religion.  We are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ and it's insulting for you to suggest anything else. Arrogant and insulting.

[Catholica]

PS... There is NO Purgatory in scripture...  it's based on an Eschatological idea, derived by men who read the scriptures and decided they needed such a thing.  It has no factual backup in scripture. NONE.  It says so clearly in the Catholic Encyclopedia under "Purgatory"...  Published by Nelson, Revised and updated version.

Do you mind posting the whole entry, word for word?  It's kind of an obscure book at this point.  Otherwise I can try to obtain a copy off Amazon.

So, we must then be clear that there is no Purgatory for Protestants, as for us... "To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD" is and always will be good enough for us by faith alone. As we are saved by grace.

We understand your opinion and how it would preclude purgatory, but we think it is an opinion based on false theology, and we have reasons to be believe that we are right, based on scripture, which has been presented.

But, for Catholics who rely on works to gain grace and and this is another work they must pass through before Heaven.

Not gain grace, but rather accept grace that is being offered and thereby increase grace.  However once you die, grace no longer can be merited, and purgatory is not about meriting grace, but cleansing the soul on it's way to heaven, where nothing impure may exist (Rev. 21:27).

I don't mind if they want to be purged after death.  I personally am looking forward to going right to be with my Lord forever.  I don't know how long it will take them to get there or is some of them ever will.  I guess it's safe to say, since they rely on this "Purging" for sins that are not covered by the blood and the grace of God, it may it could be a long time, or never. 

You speak as if what someone believes, whether it be true or false, affects their experience in the afterlife.  Either purgatory is real, or it is not, which is what we are talking about here (in theory, having discourse like reasonable persons).  If purgatory is real, and scripture seems to indicate that it is, then a person is better off to believe it so, because most people will realize when they get there that they should have spent a lot more time allowing God to sanctify them beforehand.

I prefer to believe in God's truth, rather than men's fairy tales for my eternity.  And since there are just TOO MANY scriptures to list that confirm that the saved will go from life to being with God in eternity... I won't post them.  And since there is NO factual proof in scripture there is a purgatory. 

You don't have to post all of them if you don't want, just a few.  And then we can demonstrate to you how they align perfectly with purgatory.  You don't want us to do that, do you?

It's safe for me to assume, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" Is good enough.   

Except scripture doesn't say that.

[Catholica]

This thread was first started in the Apologetics forum so that those who may wish to discuss what is promoted here as the sole doctrine for all Christians could be discussed in a forum not specifically related to a denominational church theology. Wherein it can appear Protestants and others are attempting to reform those denominational members for their ideas about Purgatory. This thread was intended to broaden the subject, purgatory, and review if it is supported by scripture itself. Rather than appearing to support or decry the Roman's Catholic church.
However, it was decided it is fitting to be posted here to continue the theme.

Actually it started as a off-topic comment in the Theology Forum to which doorknocker objected so I said I would start a thread here.

As this is a particularly Catholic topic it seemed more appropriate to discuss it in the Catholic Forum. All Christians may post here.

If I wanted to chat to Catholics only it would have gone in the Catholic Safe House.

Buster was referring to his post with the link to his article, not this thread.  I think the moderators were having a discussion over where it should go.  It moved back and forth earlier today.

[Brother Johan]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

[Catholica]

Catholica... I don't think you should be banned. I think you should stop being so rude and arrogant to others. 

If answering people's posts directly and forthrightly is arrogant then call me arrogant.  I've been called worse.

You said the will of God is for all men to be Catholic.  Give me ONE scripture that says that.  And I don't mean we should all be part of God's church... the body of Christ, the Bride of the Lamb. 

There is no difference between being a member of God's church and being Catholic.  As I have said before, everyone who is baptized is considered "Catholic" by the church even if they don't call themselves Catholic.  It is by baptism that we enter into the body of Christ.  It's just that the Catholic Church is the body that has the Truth, and it is the one that Jesus established, one that is a sacramental, teaching Church with centralized authority, established in Israel in the first century.  Matthew 28:19-20.  Which is exactly how the early Church was, and only similar to the Catholic Church today.  There is no other Church which has the four marks, whose practice and theology reflect both the Bible and the early Church Fathers.

I mean give me one scripture that God wills us to be Catholic, the religion you expound.  The mass, the saints, the statues, the Mary adoration, all the rites and rituals that you practice.  Where is ONE scripture that says we are called to join that religion.  We are all called by the will of God to be SAVED, not Catholic.

God will us to "be one, as He and the Father are one".  He established one Church and granted it the authority to bind and loose.  Of it's representatives, he says "whoever listens to you, listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me, rejects the one who sent me".

This is SO very different from all Protestant denominations today.

We don't adore Mary.  Adoration is reserved for God alone.  We give her her due honor based on her true place and role in the economy of salvation, which is far lower than the infinite God but higher than all other men and angels.

Statues are superfluous but there is nothing wrong with having them now that God has revealed his face to us (they can't be confused with having divine power, which is what statue idolatry was).

"Test all things, keep what is good" is a good verse for you.  It means that what exactly you read in scripture doesn't have to be the complete practice of every member of the church forever and ever.

The mass was practiced at the last supper and on the road to Emmaus and alluded to in Acts 2:42 and reflected in the writings of the Church Fathers.

The saints are spoken of in Hebrews 12:1 and their intercessory action is shown in Rev. 5:8.  The communion of saints is outlined well in many places in scripture.  We are one with Christ in one body, whoever persecutes us persecutes Christ, and nothing, not even death, can separate us.  Do you require verses for all of those things?

You also said that if men do not join the CC, the means by which God created for us to be saved, we would not be.  Show me ONE verse that says that we are saved by "THE" Church... any church. Or religion.  We are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ and it's insulting for you to suggest anything else. Arrogant and insulting.

There is no conflict.  The sacraments are HOW the blood of Christ is applied to our souls, in particular, the sacraments of baptism (which saves you now, 1 Peter 3:21), the Eucharist (without which, men don't have life in them, John 6:53), and confession (in which their post-baptismal sins are forgiven, 1 John 1:9)

I never said that men could not be saved if they joined the CC, however they don't have access to two of those three essential sacraments unless they do (baptism being the exception, if it is done with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with the intent to baptize).

This forum is full of arrogant and insulting people.  You pick on me because why?

[Catholica]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

[4WD]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?

[kensington]

'As I have said before, everyone who is baptized is considered "Catholic" by the church even if they don't call themselves Catholic. "

This is an arrogant stance and comment.  NO church has the right to tell others what they are. The CC does not have that authority.  There is no proof that they do.

Let me ask you... Is it OK for me to say that a Catholic is not a Christian, unless they leave the church? 

[Brother Johan]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

How do you explain Ephesians 2,  6
and raised up with Him, and made us sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Does this mean, we have to leave the heavenly places where Christ is and then go to purgatory When we die?