Purgatory - Again!

[Catholica]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?

They passively suffer the fires of purgatory.  They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything.  That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory".  Poor because they can do nothing but wait. 

That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there.  They are like gold being refined in a crucible.  But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?

They passively suffer the fires of purgatory.  They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything.  That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory".  Poor because they can do nothing but wait. 

That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there.  They are like gold being refined in a crucible.  But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.

Do you believe in a loving God?

Do you believe that God sent Jesus Christ to die for you?

[4WD]

I doubt that winsome is going to ask it to be closed.  He is still waiting for someone to actually respond to his OP!

There is always a chance that someone may address the points I raised rather than diverting off into side issues.

I responded in reply #3 to the first part of your OP.  I stopped with that.

You didn't address a single point though, just stated an opinion and didn't address any of the scripture winsome provided.

The kind of reply that we are looking for is one that addresses winsome's points in his post.

I did address them.  There is no mention of purgatory in any of them.  And so far as I am concerned there is not even a suggestion of a purgatory in any of them.  Now you can disagree with me about that and I can accept that.

That's not addressing them, sorry.

That is as useless a response as me saying about your post,

"There was not a complete sentence in your post.  Not one.  You can disagree with me about that and I can accept that."

Okay, let me try this:

Catholic belief:
All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

The basic argument for Purgatory is as follows:

1. God is holy and perfect, and He tells us to be holy and perfect as he is holy and perfect.
"...but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." (1Pet 1:15-16)
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48) 

No argument there.  It is Scripture.

2. Unless we are clean (holy and perfect) we will not enter heaven for a life of communion with God.
"But nothing unclean will enter it" [The new Jerusalem – Heaven] (Rev 21:27)

True again. 

3. Unless we are holy we will not see God.
"Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb 12;14)

Can't argue with a thing there.

4. When we are initially justified (I believe by baptism) God makes us holy and perfect.
"When the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life." (Ti 3:4-7)

Yes, I agree with that.

5. But during our life we sin which disfigures and soils our souls and from which we need cleansing to restore us the holiness and perfection necessary to enter heaven. This is an ongoing process of sin, repentance, and cleansing.
"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

I could argue with some of that.  It has to do with what winsome apparently doesn't understand the full implications of what it means to be "in Christ".  Perhaps a study of that biblical concept is in order.  But I will let that slide for the moment.

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect

.

That is called being saved.  It is described variously in several places in the NT.  One of my favorites is

Tit 3:5  He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6  whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7  so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

All of the above deals with our life now on this earth.  There is nothing in any of those passages dealing with any activity following physical death.

[Catholica]

'As I have said before, everyone who is baptized is considered "Catholic" by the church even if they don't call themselves Catholic. "

This is an arrogant stance and comment.  NO church has the right to tell others what they are. The CC does not have that authority.  There is no proof that they do.

All I am telling you is what the Catholic Church teaches.   And in fact the Catholic Church DOES have that authority, the "proof" is in apostolic succession.

To insist on "proof" to try to undermine what someone must believe based on faith is dangerous.  There is also no "proof" that Jesus was a real person.  His body is gone; there were lots of people named Jesus back then, etc.  All we have is an unbroken line of witnesses and their writings.

Let me ask you... Is it OK for me to say that a Catholic is not a Christian, unless they leave the church?

Not on this forum.  But if that is what you believe, and if someone asked you if that is what you believed and you answered them, I can't see how that would violate the forum rules.  But I wouldn't ask you that, because it is an unfair question, because it's probably true, and that would be "brinking".

You could say it in real life all you want.  People would probably think you are a jerk though.

I wouldn't say that about baptized persons who are not Catholic.  If they are baptized, I call them Christian, and I believe that their path to heaven relies on the same things that people who call themselves Catholic need, things that I believe Jesus Christ gave us for the salvation of all men who would be saved.

[Catholica]

Bravo, 4WD, with all sincerity.  I haven't read through your whole post yet, but now we can finally have a discussion.  Kudos and manna to you.

[Catholica]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?

They passively suffer the fires of purgatory.  They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything.  That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory".  Poor because they can do nothing but wait. 

That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there.  They are like gold being refined in a crucible.  But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.

Do you believe in a loving God?

Do you believe that God sent Jesus Christ to die for you?

Yes, to both, with all my heart.

I believe that God loves us so much that he wants us to be brought to heaven, and to be completely free from the stain of sin, and will do anything to save us, to make us that way, even if it means chastising us for a little while, like any good father would do.  Hebrews 12:6

God sent Jesus Christ not only to die for me, but to reveal the truth about God to me, to purify me, to make me whole again, and to raise me up from the cesspool of sin and slavery, and to craft me into the person I was meant to be, free from all attachment to sin, free from the stain of sin, free to know God so that I love him as I aught, free to love my neighbor as I ought.  God is so merciful and just, and purgatory is a pure mercy for people who tend in their imperfect fallen nature to fall again and again, who rarely become the person that God sees they could be.

God loves me so much, and purgatory is one expression of that love.

[Buster D Body Crab]

'As I have said before, everyone who is baptized is considered "Catholic" by the church even if they don't call themselves Catholic. "

This is an arrogant stance and comment.  NO church has the right to tell others what they are. The CC does not have that authority.  There is no proof that they do.

It is the tradition created by the men of the RCC through the Catechism of the Roman Catholic church that says this. Note in this excerpt:"though imperfect" communion with the Roman Catholic church.  Unless one is Roman Catholic, while all baptism, per the RCC, constitutes a communion with the church, those who are not baptised by the church are imperfect in communion with the RCC.

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."


While Baptism itself for those not affiliated with the Roman Catholic church who receive immersion Baptism are in fellowship with God, Christ, and one another as the body of Christ. His universal church.

Bible Dictionary:
Communion [N]
fellowship with God ( Genesis 18:17-33 ; Exodus 33:9-11 ; Numbers 12:7 Numbers 12:8 ), between Christ and his people ( John 14:23 ), by the Spirit ( 2 Corinthians 13:14 ; Phil 2:1 ), of believers with one another ( Ephesians 4:1-6 ). The Lord's Supper is so called ( 1 Corinthians 10:16 1 Corinthians 10:17 ), because in it there is fellowship between Christ and his disciples, and of the disciples with one another.

[4WD]

What we often see within some churches within Christendom, and presented here at the forum, the concept called Once-Saved-Always-Saved.  I don't believe that concept and I don't want to discuss it here.  However that is at one end of the spectrum of the thinking with respect to salvation.  It would appear that in the Catholic church we find the other end of that spectrum.  I will call it the concept of Never-Saved-Always-Hoping.  I don't believe that concept either.  Neither seem to understand salvation as it is presented in the Bible, particularly the NT.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?

They passively suffer the fires of purgatory.  They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything.  That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory".  Poor because they can do nothing but wait. 

That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there.  They are like gold being refined in a crucible.  But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.

Do you believe in a loving God?

Do you believe that God sent Jesus Christ to die for you?

Yes, to both, with all my heart.

I believe that God loves us so much that he wants us to be brought to heaven, and to be completely free from the stain of sin, and will do anything to save us, to make us that way, even if it means chastising us for a little while, like any good father would do.  Hebrews 12:6

God sent Jesus Christ not only to die for me, but to reveal the truth about God to me, to purify me, to make me whole again, and to raise me up from the cesspool of sin and slavery, and to craft me into the person I was meant to be, free from all attachment to sin, free from the stain of sin, free to know God so that I love him as I aught, free to love my neighbor as I ought.  God is so merciful and just, and purgatory is a pure mercy for people who tend in their imperfect fallen nature to fall again and again, who rarely become the person that God sees they could be.

God loves me so much, and purgatory is one expression of that love.

What are Indulgences?

[Catholica]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

How do you explain Ephesians 2,  6
and raised up with Him, and made us sit in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Does this mean, we have to leave the heavenly places where Christ is and then go to purgatory When we die?

Ephesians 2
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Paul is expounding on a spiritual reality of our soul, that insofar that we are "in Christ" that is, "in a state of grace" or "saved by grace" we have a "spiritually organic connection to Christ himself" who is literally seated on that throne.  Let's examine the whole passage:

1. "Made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-- it is by grace you have been saved".  We were not physically dead, were we?  Spiritually dead, yes.  So in a spiritual sense, alive in spirit, alive in the grace of God, alive "in Christ Jesus" once we have received God's grace.

2. "And God raised us up with Christ".  Not literally; Christ was raised 2000 years ago.  How so raised up?  Raised up insofar that we have been made part of the body of Christ.

3. "and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus".  We became part of Christ's body when we were baptized.  In Christ Jesus, we are "seated" in the heavenly realms, insomuch that we are part of his body.  But not literally seated there, but in a sense spiritually seated there.  There is no reason that this same "spiritually seated on the throne" would be any different in purgatory.  In the same sense, all in purgatory are "in Christ Jesus" because they are all "saved".

Make sense?

[Catholica]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

What do they have to do in purgatory to get purged?

They passively suffer the fires of purgatory.  They don't have to do anything; and they cannot do anything.  That is why they are often called "the poor souls in purgatory".  Poor because they can do nothing but wait. 

That being said, they are filled with joy and hope while they do it because they realize that they are being ever drawn closer and closer to heaven as they are purified, and with their suffering there is a sense of joy and love for God, despite the spiritual pains they endure there.  They are like gold being refined in a crucible.  But "gold" that is more and more filled with a more perfect and pure love for God.

Do you believe in a loving God?

Do you believe that God sent Jesus Christ to die for you?

Yes, to both, with all my heart.

I believe that God loves us so much that he wants us to be brought to heaven, and to be completely free from the stain of sin, and will do anything to save us, to make us that way, even if it means chastising us for a little while, like any good father would do.  Hebrews 12:6

God sent Jesus Christ not only to die for me, but to reveal the truth about God to me, to purify me, to make me whole again, and to raise me up from the cesspool of sin and slavery, and to craft me into the person I was meant to be, free from all attachment to sin, free from the stain of sin, free to know God so that I love him as I aught, free to love my neighbor as I ought.  God is so merciful and just, and purgatory is a pure mercy for people who tend in their imperfect fallen nature to fall again and again, who rarely become the person that God sees they could be.

God loves me so much, and purgatory is one expression of that love.

What are Indulgences?

You've asked me that question already here.  You can also go there to find your answer.

[Catholica]

What we often see within some churches within Christendom, and presented here at the forum, the concept called Once-Saved-Always-Saved.  I don't believe that concept and I don't want to discuss it here.  However that is at one end of the spectrum of the thinking with respect to salvation.  It would appear that in the Catholic church we find the other end of that spectrum.  I will call it the concept of Never-Saved-Always-Hoping.  I don't believe that concept either.  Neither seem to understand salvation as it is presented in the Bible, particularly the NT.

It's not quite that way.  Hope is an important virtue, one of the three theological virtues, of Faith, Hope and Charity.  Of course we are always hoping, hoping in the promises of Jesus, and clinging to them in faith.  But the Catholic who has been well Catechized has a very good handle as to whether when he dies God with judge him saved or not.  That is something we call "final salvation".  In another sense there is a sort of initial salvation which we know that we have received, through baptism.

We see truth in the words of Paul who it appears to view salvation as a process as well.  In different places he says "been saved" "being saved" and "will be saved" referring to different stages of the process.

In effect we see salvation as a healing process for the soul as well as the great gift of eternal bliss.

[Buster D Body Crab]

You've asked me that question already here.  You can also go there to find your answer.

Yes ,I read that but this pertains to Purgatory.

Do Indulgences accrued lessen the time spent in Purgatory?

[Brother Johan]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

How do you fit  Hebrews 10,  14 into that,  as you state   were not perfectly sanctified

For by a single offering  He  HAS  perfected  for all time those who are sanctified.

[kensington]

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."   Hebrews 10:14

Thank you.  That is clear if you ask me. No purgatory needed. 

[Brother Johan]

Purgatory continued

Holiness

Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin.  The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.

We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).

During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).

Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)

"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)

We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.


Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.

This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.

"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).


"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)

Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't

Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.

Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.

16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.   

The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.

"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)

This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.

To be continued...

What does it mean to be fully holy?

Can you be partly holy?

Or are you either holy or not holy?

[winsome]

Purgatory continued

Holiness

Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin.  The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.

We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).

During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).

Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)

"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)

We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.


Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.

This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.

"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).


"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)

Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't

Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.

Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.

16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.   

The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.

"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)

This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.

To be continued...

What does it mean to be fully holy?

Can you be partly holy?

Or are you either holy or not holy?

Holiness
In the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God. The holiness of God identified his separation from all evil. And among creatures they are holy by their relation to him. Holiness in creatures is either subjective or objective or both. It is subjective essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue. Objective holiness in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God: priests by their ordination, religious by their vows, sacred places, vessels, and vestments by the blessing they receive and the sacred purpose for which they are reserved. (from catholicculture.org)

The rich young man was holy in that he was dedicated to serving God. He kept the commandments from his youth.

He had done what Jesus said he must do to attain eternal life.

But he lacked something. He was still attached to his wealth. He was holding something back from his service to God and he needed to let go to be perfect.

Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.

[winsome]

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect

.

That is called being saved.  It is described variously in several places in the NT.  One of my favorites is

Tit 3:5  He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6  whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7  so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

All of the above deals with our life now on this earth.  There is nothing in any of those passages dealing with any activity following physical death.

Sure, we are washed clean in baptism but after that we sin. Our lives are a pattern of sin, repentance, sin again, repentance again.

We can fall into patterns of sin that can become engrained.

In the Sacraments God has made available to us all that we need to become perfect in this life. But, as Paul describes in Eph 4, we are constantly struggling to achieve that.

I believe that Heb 12:22-23 shows that those in heaven have been made perfect. If it does not completed in this life it can be finished afterwards.

[winsome]

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."   Hebrews 10:14

Thank you.  That is clear if you ask me. No purgatory needed. 

Do you think you are perfect?


Many texts tell us that perfection is ongoing:

"Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Rom 12:2)

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

"And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (Jas 1:4)

^"There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love." (1Jn 4:18).

If we can achieve perfection in this life – great.

If not Purgatory, a process of achieving that perfection after we die, is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn't.

[chosenone]

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."   Hebrews 10:14

Thank you.  That is clear if you ask me. No purgatory needed. 

Do you think you are perfect?


Many texts tell us that perfection is ongoing:

"Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Rom 12:2)

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

"And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (Jas 1:4)

^"There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love." (1Jn 4:18).

If we can achieve perfection in this life – great.

If not Purgatory, a process of achieving that perfection after we die, is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn't.

No but she knows that Jesus IS perfect and He died in OUR place.  Gods mercy sent His Son to die for us, we need nothing more.

[Brother Johan]

Purgatory continued

Holiness

Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin.  The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.

We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).

During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).

Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)

"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)

We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.


Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.

This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.

"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).


"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)

Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't

Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.

Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.

16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.   

The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.

"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)

This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.

To be continued...

What does it mean to be fully holy?

Can you be partly holy?

Or are you either holy or not holy?

Holiness
In the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God. The holiness of God identified his separation from all evil. And among creatures they are holy by their relation to him. Holiness in creatures is either subjective or objective or both. It is subjective essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue. Objective holiness in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God: priests by their ordination, religious by their vows, sacred places, vessels, and vestments by the blessing they receive and the sacred purpose for which they are reserved. (from catholicculture.org)

The rich young man was holy in that he was dedicated to serving God. He kept the commandments from his youth.

He had done what Jesus said he must do to attain eternal life.

But he lacked something. He was still attached to his wealth. He was holding something back from his service to God and he needed to let go to be perfect.

Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.

If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

[Buster D Body Crab]

If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

[4WD]

What we often see within some churches within Christendom, and presented here at the forum, the concept called Once-Saved-Always-Saved.  I don't believe that concept and I don't want to discuss it here.  However that is at one end of the spectrum of the thinking with respect to salvation.  It would appear that in the Catholic church we find the other end of that spectrum.  I will call it the concept of Never-Saved-Always-Hoping.  I don't believe that concept either.  Neither seem to understand salvation as it is presented in the Bible, particularly the NT.

It's not quite that way.  Hope is an important virtue, one of the three theological virtues, of Faith, Hope and Charity.  Of course we are always hoping, hoping in the promises of Jesus, and clinging to them in faith.  But the Catholic who has been well Catechized has a very good handle as to whether when he dies God with judge him saved or not.  That is something we call "final salvation".  In another sense there is a sort of initial salvation which we know that we have received, through baptism.

We see truth in the words of Paul who it appears to view salvation as a process as well.  In different places he says "been saved" "being saved" and "will be saved" referring to different stages of the process.

In effect we see salvation as a healing process for the soul as well as the great gift of eternal bliss.

You are using the biblical meaning for "hope", i.e.,  Greek elpis meaning joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation

I used the "English" meaning of hope, i.e., to wish for,  there not the typical biblical meaning of hope.  Perhaps I should have labeled it Never-Saved-Always-Wishing. 

The different stages of saved, being saved and will be saved represent the on-going process of sanctification, not varying degrees of becoming but not quite saved.  There is no becoming saved; there is only saved and unsaved.  There is no spectrum to salvation.  One is either in Christ or not; during life and at death.  And for those in Christ there is "therefore now no condemnation" (Rom 8:1).

[4WD]

6. If we are not wholly clean, holy and perfect there must be some process whereby we can be cleansed and made holy and perfect. Scripture tells us there is:
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:22-23)
This shows that there is a way, a process, whereby the spirits of just men are made perfect

.

That is called being saved.  It is described variously in several places in the NT.  One of my favorites is

Tit 3:5  He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6  whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7  so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

All of the above deals with our life now on this earth.  There is nothing in any of those passages dealing with any activity following physical death.

Sure, we are washed clean in baptism but after that we sin. Our lives are a pattern of sin, repentance, sin again, repentance again.

We can fall into patterns of sin that can become engrained.

In the Sacraments God has made available to us all that we need to become perfect in this life. But, as Paul describes in Eph 4, we are constantly struggling to achieve that.

I believe that Heb 12:22-23 shows that those in heaven have been made perfect. If it does not completed in this life it can be finished afterwards.

But those patterns of sin, repentance, sin again, repentance again are not patterns of saved, not saved, saved again.  Yes Hebrews 12 says that those in heaven have been made perfect, but there is nothing in Hebrews 12 that says if you aren't made perfect in this life, you get another chance.  That is the lesson Jesus gave us in the story of the ten virgins in Matthew 25. That is a consistent message throughout the NT.  You are ready or you are not.  Those that teach maybe ready maybe not do such a disservice to the gospel message.

We are saved through faith and we are lost through lack of faith.  The problem you speak of about sin that can become ingrained is that it can lead to unbelief, that is, a lack of faith.  And here I am speaking about belief or faith that is not just intellectual assent.  As James notes, even the demons have intellectual assent.

[4WD]

Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.

That is true, but being saved is not progressive.

[winsome]

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."   Hebrews 10:14

Thank you.  That is clear if you ask me. No purgatory needed. 

Do you think you are perfect?


Many texts tell us that perfection is ongoing:

"Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Rom 12:2)

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

"And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (Jas 1:4)

^"There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because fear has to do with punishment, and so one who fears is not yet perfect in love." (1Jn 4:18).

If we can achieve perfection in this life – great.

If not Purgatory, a process of achieving that perfection after we die, is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven, at least most of us couldn't.

No but she knows that Jesus IS perfect

That doesn't make her perfect.

  "You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."(Mt 5:48) 

and He died in OUR place.

No he didn't. That is false Protestant theology.

Gods mercy sent His Son to die for us,

That's better

we need nothing more.

But we do

[winsome]

If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

Any evidence for those statements?

[winsome]

Purgatory continued

Holiness

Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin.  The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.

We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).

During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).

Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)

"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)

We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.


Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.

This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.

"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).


"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)

Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't

Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.

Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.

16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.   

The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.

"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)

This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.

To be continued...

What does it mean to be fully holy?

Can you be partly holy?

Or are you either holy or not holy?

Holiness
In the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God. The holiness of God identified his separation from all evil. And among creatures they are holy by their relation to him. Holiness in creatures is either subjective or objective or both. It is subjective essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue. Objective holiness in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God: priests by their ordination, religious by their vows, sacred places, vessels, and vestments by the blessing they receive and the sacred purpose for which they are reserved. (from catholicculture.org)

The rich young man was holy in that he was dedicated to serving God. He kept the commandments from his youth.

He had done what Jesus said he must do to attain eternal life.

But he lacked something. He was still attached to his wealth. He was holding something back from his service to God and he needed to let go to be perfect.

Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.

If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

When does God call us holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

It's both

It's an inwards state that results in good moral behaviour

[4WD]

If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

Any evidence for those statements?

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21  But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24  being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25  whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

[Brother Johan]

Purgatory continued

Holiness

Purgatory is about becoming holy. Catholics call this Sanctification but Protestants use Sanctification differently. It is about the secondary consequences of sin not the primary consequence of sin.  The primary consequence of sin is a rupture (partial or total) of communion with God. It is the healing of that rupture that Jesus atoned for on the cross.

We are born into a sinful condition.
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5).

During our lives we pile sin upon sin.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1Jn 1:8).

Or as St. Paul put it
"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." (Rom 7:25)

Unless we do something about them the consequences of sin accumulate and we are told that nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

We are urged to become pure and holy, without blemish
"But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." (2Pet 3:13-14)

"Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure." (1Jn 3:2-3)

We need to be cleansed or purged from the consequences of sin that affect us so that we may be fit to enter the presence of God.


Love never ends says St. Paul (1 Cor 13:8). In heaven what else will there be. "So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.". (1 Cor 13:13), and in heaven there will be no need of faith for we will be in the presence of God; there will be no need for hope because we will have attained all that we hoped for.

All that we will need is perfect love, and indeed nothing else. All else besides love, that which detracts from love, that is less than love must be left behind. There can be no anger, hate, lust, greed, jealousy, pride, covetousness, or any such thing. It is not enough to "cover up" such things, they must be expunged.

This can appear as punishment but it would be better to regard it as God's discipline.

"It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12:7-11).


"Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself; like gold in the furnace he tried them, and like a sacrificial burnt offering he accepted them." (Wis 3:5-6)

Purgatory is seen as a purification process where the disorders in us caused by sin are healed, where the lingering attachments to sin, such as pride, anger lust etc., and "bad attitudes" are cleared out, so that we can be pure and holy and fit to be in the presence of God. It is God's mercy to allow us to be purified before we enter his presence, as we could not bear to be in his presence unless we are pure and holy.

"Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God." (2Cor 7:1)

Purgatory is God's mercy, because without it we could not achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven - the holiness without which no one will see the Lord" - at least most of us couldn't

Jesus dealt with the punishment for sin due to our offence against God. But when we sin we also damage ourselves because we fall into patterns of sin.

Each time we sin we turn away from God towards something in creation, something that we put before God. We can see this in the story of the rich young man in Mt 19:16-23. He was a good man, he kept the commandments, but he was too attracted by his money and his material possessions. When Jesus called him he turned away because he could not part from them.

There is also a further point in this incident. I think it is worth quoting it in full.

16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 16 he asks what is necessary to have eternal life – i.e. to be saved.
Jesus responds (verse 17-19) that he must keep the commandments – i.e. not sin.
The young man says he has done all this and asks what else (verse 20) and Jesus says (verse 21) that if he wishes to be perfect he should sell his possessions and give them to the poor. This is not about not sinning, but about becoming holy and perfect.
The young man could not bring himself to do this and turns away (verse 22)
Now Jesus comments that it will be hard for him to enter heaven (verse 23). He does not say he will not be able to and that he will go to hell because he is good and keeps the commandments, but that it will be hard. It will be hard because he has to become holy and perfect before he can enter heaven and the young man cannot bring himself to give up his attachments to his wealth. The young man is destined for heaven but Jesus is indicating that he will have to become perfect by being purified of his attachments to wealth. If he does not manage it on earth the only option left is in some intermediate state between death and entry into heaven. This is purgatory.   

The key to this is repentance. This is what John the Baptist called for (Mt 3:3), what Jesus called for (Mt 4:17) and what Peter called for (Acts 2:38). Now repentance means turning back from the created things that attract us and back to God – 100%.

"[Jesus Christ] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." (Ti 2:14)

This purification is being made holy. It is a work of God, not our work. But we have to co-operate with God and do what we can to assist the process. It is not a passive thing. We can do this now in this part of our life, or we can do it after death in purgatory. But we must be fully holy before we can enter heaven.

To be continued...

What does it mean to be fully holy?

Can you be partly holy?

Or are you either holy or not holy?

Holiness
In the Old Testament the Hebrew Kadosch (holy) meant being separated from the secular or profane, or dedication to God's service, as Israel was said to be holy because it was the people of God. The holiness of God identified his separation from all evil. And among creatures they are holy by their relation to him. Holiness in creatures is either subjective or objective or both. It is subjective essentially by the possession of divine grace and morally by the practice of virtue. Objective holiness in creatures denotes their exclusive consecration to the service of God: priests by their ordination, religious by their vows, sacred places, vessels, and vestments by the blessing they receive and the sacred purpose for which they are reserved. (from catholicculture.org)

The rich young man was holy in that he was dedicated to serving God. He kept the commandments from his youth.

He had done what Jesus said he must do to attain eternal life.

But he lacked something. He was still attached to his wealth. He was holding something back from his service to God and he needed to let go to be perfect.

Becoming holy is progressive as we grow in grace and in moral virtue.

Is it possible for us to be holy, if we keep all the commandments apart from sharing in the Devine nature?

[Buster D Body Crab]

No but she knows that Jesus IS perfect and He died in OUR place.  Gods mercy sent His Son to die for us, we need nothing more.

Amen!
Isaiah 53:5 "But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed."

[Buster D Body Crab]

If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

Any evidence for those statements?

Yes, scripture.

[Catholica]

Now for clarification,  is purgatory neither heaven nor hell?

Is it an in between place?

Purgatory is a place (or state, the church doesn't define it, though I believe it to be a place) for souls who, at the point of their death, died in the grace of God but were not perfectly sanctified during their life.  Everyone who is purged in purgatory is done so so that one day they go to heaven.  At the point of death they are judged as saved, so they will all become members of heaven one day.

How do you fit  Hebrews 10,  14 into that,  as you state   were not perfectly sanctified

For by a single offering  He  HAS  perfected  for all time those who are sanctified.

The past tense of this verse refers to Christ's sacrifice being in the past, and the quality of that sacrifice is that the merit he earned was sufficient to sanctify all Christians perfectly.

Once a person is sanctified in purgatory, they are perfected for all time.

As for those who have not reached completion, who are on the path of being sanctified.  The Catholic Church (I believe rightly) associates sanctification with holiness and righteousness.  In Hebrews 12 we read:

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
    and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
    and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

In this frame of belief, one can go back to see Hebrews 10 and it's reference to those people who "are sanctified" as being ones who have reached the conclusion of this path to perfect sanctity, setting aside sin completely.  This usually finally occurs in purgatory, as (I believe even Protestants agree) people still have attachments to sin to the end of their lives.  This is a sign of an imperfect will, one which has not set itself completely on doing the will of the Father.

I'm curious about this, do you believe that we have free will?  How about in heaven, do we have free will?  Or is this something that is taken away from us? 

To me having free will is one of the ways that God created us in his image, something that separates us from the brute animals.

[winsome]

If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

Any evidence for those statements?

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21  But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24  being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25  whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Where there does God call us holy?

[winsome]

If God calls us holy, would we be holy?  Or only partly holy?

Is holiness an inward state or is it outward good moral behavior?

When God calls us holy we are so. And we are to be holy in all that we do. Living testaments of the message and spirit of Christ.

Any evidence for those statements?

Yes, scripture.

Where in scripture?