The Catholic Church and Authority

[winsome]

The Catholic Church's interpretation is not wrong. We have Jesus' promise for that.

Where?

Jesus, speaking to the Apostles, those he appointed to be the leaders of his Church:
But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26)


When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (Jn 16:13-14)

And to Peter
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. (Mt 16:18)

The words spoken by Jesus there that you posted from John 16 have nothing whatsoever to do with the RCC.  That is one of the first gross mistakes made by the RCC.

The church that Jesus spoke about there in Matthew 16 is the church I belong to, not the RCC.  Some in the RCC also belong to that same church as well, but it certainly isn't that religious organization headquartered in Italy.

That may be your opinion but you are wrong.

What Church do you belong to?

No I am not wrong on either point.  I belong to the church that Jesus built. 

Eph 2:19  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
Eph 2:20  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Eph 2:21  in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph 2:22  in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. 

That's the Catholic Church

[4WD]

The Catholic Church's interpretation is not wrong. We have Jesus' promise for that.

Where?

Jesus, speaking to the Apostles, those he appointed to be the leaders of his Church:
But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26)


When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (Jn 16:13-14)

And to Peter
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. (Mt 16:18)

The words spoken by Jesus there that you posted from John 16 have nothing whatsoever to do with the RCC.  That is one of the first gross mistakes made by the RCC.

The church that Jesus spoke about there in Matthew 16 is the church I belong to, not the RCC.  Some in the RCC also belong to that same church as well, but it certainly isn't that religious organization headquartered in Italy.

That may be your opinion but you are wrong.

What Church do you belong to?

No I am not wrong on either point.  I belong to the church that Jesus built. 

Eph 2:19  So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
Eph 2:20  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Eph 2:21  in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph 2:22  in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit. 

That's the Catholic Church

No its not.

[His_will_i_am]

I have an idea that will settle the debate once and for all. Why not get your Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, and every sectarian leader together and go before the Lord to seek His approval by power.

Let each leader present a cup of water and ask the Lord whosoever truly represents the Way as the apostles set forth, let that person or sects cup of water be turned into wine to one and for all settle who walks according to His Spirit.

There are only a few possible outcomes.

If no one's water is turned to wine than the whole lot are corrupt and need to seek the Lord in repentance.
If only one sects leader has their water turned into wine than it's that sect which represents the Way and the Lord.
If everyone's wine is turned into wine then the Lord has no problem with any of the forms or sects which the sects have taken for themselves and they are approved by God.
If only certain leaders/sects than these are the ones Good had chosen and the rest need to repent.

[Catholica]

I have an idea that will settle the debate once and for all. Why not get your Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, and every sectarian leader together and go before the Lord to seek His approval by power.

Let each leader present a cup of water and ask the Lord whosoever truly represents the Way as the apostles set forth, let that person or sects cup of water be turned into wine to one and for all settle who walks according to His Spirit.

There are only a few possible outcomes.

If no one's water is turned to wine than the whole lot are corrupt and need to seek the Lord in repentance.
If only one sects leader has their water turned into wine than it's that sect which represents the Way and the Lord.
If everyone's wine is turned into wine then the Lord has no problem with any of the forms or sects which the sects have taken for themselves and they are approved by God.
If only certain leaders/sects than these are the ones Good had chosen and the rest need to repent.

Its an interesting proposition.  But history has shown that even miracles will not convince some.  Plus we are ordered to not put the Lord to the test.

I think that the historical feasibleness is enough for most people to tell which is the true Church. That alone would eliminate the need to spend time pouring at least 40,000 cups of water.

[LexKnight]

I have an idea that will settle the debate once and for all. Why not get your Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, and every sectarian leader together and go before the Lord to seek His approval by power.

Let each leader present a cup of water and ask the Lord whosoever truly represents the Way as the apostles set forth, let that person or sects cup of water be turned into wine to one and for all settle who walks according to His Spirit.

There are only a few possible outcomes.

If no one's water is turned to wine than the whole lot are corrupt and need to seek the Lord in repentance.
If only one sects leader has their water turned into wine than it's that sect which represents the Way and the Lord.
If everyone's wine is turned into wine then the Lord has no problem with any of the forms or sects which the sects have taken for themselves and they are approved by God.
If only certain leaders/sects than these are the ones Good had chosen and the rest need to repent.

Its an interesting proposition.  But history has shown that even miracles will not convince some.  Plus we are ordered to not put the Lord to the test.

I think that the historical feasibleness is enough for most people to tell which is the true Church. That alone would eliminate the need to spend time pouring at least 40,000 cups of water.

But isn't that what Elijah did to reveal the Lord to Israel? And wouldn't He want His people separated from the erred religions in His Name?

[Catholica]

I have an idea that will settle the debate once and for all. Why not get your Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, and every sectarian leader together and go before the Lord to seek His approval by power.

Let each leader present a cup of water and ask the Lord whosoever truly represents the Way as the apostles set forth, let that person or sects cup of water be turned into wine to one and for all settle who walks according to His Spirit.

There are only a few possible outcomes.

If no one's water is turned to wine than the whole lot are corrupt and need to seek the Lord in repentance.
If only one sects leader has their water turned into wine than it's that sect which represents the Way and the Lord.
If everyone's wine is turned into wine then the Lord has no problem with any of the forms or sects which the sects have taken for themselves and they are approved by God.
If only certain leaders/sects than these are the ones Good had chosen and the rest need to repent.

Its an interesting proposition.  But history has shown that even miracles will not convince some.  Plus we are ordered to not put the Lord to the test.

I think that the historical feasibleness is enough for most people to tell which is the true Church. That alone would eliminate the need to spend time pouring at least 40,000 cups of water.

But isn't that what Elijah did to reveal the Lord to Israel? And wouldn't He want His people separated from the erred religions in His Name?

Numbers 16 also comes to mind. 

Blessed are those who walk by faith and not by sight, those are the words of Jesus in the New Testament.

Yes, he wants His people to have the Truth and be in the true religion.  And He is working within people of Good Will to bring that about.

[His_will_i_am]

Sounds like cop outs...

[Buster D Body Crab]

I have an idea that will settle the debate once and for all. Why not get your Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, and every sectarian leader together and go before the Lord to seek His approval by power.

Let each leader present a cup of water and ask the Lord whosoever truly represents the Way as the apostles set forth, let that person or sects cup of water be turned into wine to one and for all settle who walks according to His Spirit.

There are only a few possible outcomes.

If no one's water is turned to wine than the whole lot are corrupt and need to seek the Lord in repentance.
If only one sects leader has their water turned into wine than it's that sect which represents the Way and the Lord.
If everyone's wine is turned into wine then the Lord has no problem with any of the forms or sects which the sects have taken for themselves and they are approved by God.
If only certain leaders/sects than these are the ones Good had chosen and the rest need to repent.

Its an interesting proposition.  But history has shown that even miracles will not convince some.  Plus we are ordered to not put the Lord to the test.

I think that the historical feasibleness is enough for most people to tell which is the true Church. That alone would eliminate the need to spend time pouring at least 40,000 cups of water.

But isn't that what Elijah did to reveal the Lord to Israel? And wouldn't He want His people separated from the erred religions in His Name?

That's how many read those scriptures in 1 Kings.

Elijah's trial of the false prophets.
Many of the people wavered in their judgment, and varied in their practice. Elijah called upon them to determine whether Jehovah or Baal was the self-existent, supreme God, the Creator, Governor, and Judge of the world, and to follow him alone. It is dangerous to halt between the service of God and the service of sin, the dominion of Christ and the dominion of our lusts. If Jesus be the only Saviour, let us cleave to him alone for every thing; if the Bible be the world of God, let us

reverence and receive the whole of it, and submit our understanding to the Divine teaching it contains. Elijah proposed to bring the matter to a trial. Baal had all the outward advantages, but the event encourages all God's witnesses and advocates never to fear the face of man. The God that answers by fire, let him be God: the atonement was to be made by sacrifice, before the judgment could be removed in mercy. The God therefore that has power to pardon sin, and to signify it by consuming the

sin-offering, must needs be the God that can relieve from the calamity. God never required his worshippers to honour him in the manner of the worshippers of Baal; but the service of the devil, though sometimes it pleases and pampers the body, yet, in other things, really is cruel to it, as in envy and drunkenness. God requires that we mortify our lusts and corruptions; but bodily penances and severities are no pleasure to him. Who has required these things at your hands? A few words uttered in

assured faith, and with fervent affection for the glory of God, and love to the souls of men, or thirstings after the Lord's image and his favour, form the effectual, fervent prayer of the righteous man, which availeth much. Elijah sought not his own glory, but that of God, for the good of the people. The people are all agreed, convinced, and satisfied; Jehovah, he is the God. Some, we hope, had their hearts turned, but most of them were convinced only, not converted. Blessed are they that have

not seen what these saw, yet have believed, and have been wrought upon by it, more than they that saw it. (1Ki 18:41-46)

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Elijah meets Ahab.
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Elijah, by prayer, obtains rain.

About this commentary:
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible is available in the Public Domain.