The Catholic Church and Authority

[winsome]

 There are some differences between (Roman) Catholics and (Eastern) Orthodox over interpretation of scriptures. There are many differences between Catholics (and Orthodox) and most Protestants. There are many differences between the multitudinous Protestant denominations and church groups.

Who is right?
It all boils down to authority.
Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

Let's say someone says a particular passage should be interpreted metaphorically. Someone else says it should be interpreted literally. A third person says it has to be interpreted in the light of bible passage X. A fourth person says it should be interpreted in the light of a different passage Y. A fifth person says it is not relevant to the current situation however it is interpreted. A sixth person.......and so on!

Who is right? Whose interpretation do you go along with? Perhaps you come up with your own.

Whatever you do you will be right because the Holy Spirit is leading you personally into all truth (1Jn 2:27). 
Right?

Except the others all believe the Holy Spirit is leading them personally into all truth!

Welcome to Protestantism!

Let's try another scenario.
For 1500 years Christians throughout the world have interpreted a particular passage from one of Paul's letters as meaning ABC. The some guy – let's call him Luther - studies scripture and decides it has been interpreted wrongly and means XYZ, and teaches a doctrine based on his interpretation. Now just suppose that Paul himself appears and says "Actually Luther, you are wrong. It does mean ABC". Who do you believe – Paul or Luther?

Well Paul obviously – he wrote it. But suppose the apostle Peter came along instead and says – "Luther is wrong, Paul meant ABC and Luther's doctrine is wrong." Who do you believe?  Still Peter - he was an apostle. He was taught by Christ and was given authority by Christ. Luther was not.

But suppose neither Paul not Peter turned up, but Timothy instead. And Timothy says – "Luther is wrong, Paul meant ABC and Luther's doctrine is wrong." Who do you believe? Timothy has been taught personally by Paul. Paul has laid hands on him and appointed him to be a minister of Christ Jesus and an overseer in Ephesus; instructed him to pass on to other faithful people the teaching that Paul has given him. Of course I would trust Timothy. He was given teaching and authority by Paul. Luther was not.

That's how we know what the correct interpretation of scripture is. That's how we know what true doctrines are. We get them from the apostles because they were given true doctrines by Christ and the authority to teach them by Christ. And they passed them on to faithful people who would pass them on in their turn (2Tim 2:1-2).
We don't get them from personal opinions of those who have not been given such authority.

It all boils down to authority!

Let's simplify it another way.

Group 1 proposes a doctrine based on a literal interpretation of scripture.

Group 2 proposes a different doctrine based on a metaphorical interpretation of scripture.

You have three choices.

1. You decide that no-one has any authority and their interpretations are just opinions. In that case there is no absolute truth. But then why study the Bible if all you get are conflicting opinions? You might think there is absolute truth but in fact all you have are differing opinions.

2. You decide that one group is right because you think their interpretation is the most "biblical". But all you have done is decide that your personal opinion trumps the others. Who gave you the authority to decide which is "biblical", which is right or wrong? Does a particular group seem 'right' to you? But that doesn't mean it is right. You are not infallible.

3. You look to see where there is a group that God has given the authority to interpret scripture definitively and teach true doctrine.
Such a group must go back to the apostles because they were given the teaching and authority by Christ.
Such a group must have been passed on true doctrine from the apostles and the authority to interpret scripture correctly.
Is there one? Or did Christ abandon his Church to fall into error, despite his promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against it? 
No of course not.
There must be such a group, a church - and there is one.

Welcome to the Catholic Church!

Jesus said:
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." (Mt 15:17-18)

Jesus' words only make sense if there is a visible Church with authority over its members; a Church that was founded by Christ himself, not by any man 15+ centuries later.

Of course, you may decide that the Holy Spirit is infallibly telling you that Mt 15:16-17 doesn't really mean what it appears to mean....

I maintain that there is only one Church that can be traced back to the apostles and contains all the authority that Christ gave it. And that is the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church is close but it doesn't accept the authority of the Pope as the successor of Peter.

The Catholic Church has the four scriptural marks of the Church Christ founded, as described by Paul and proclaimed in the Nicene Creed – one, holy, catholic and apostolic.

Eph 2:19-22
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [catholic]
built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [apostolic]
in whom the whole structure is joined together [one]
and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. [holy]

[chosenone]

Actually you join the church that has the least Biblical errors, and that follows God the most closely, then you allow The HS to carry on guiding you into all truth. This is what we do. Jesus should have the authority in a good church, not a mere man who is fallible.   

[winsome]

Actually you join the church that has the least Biblical errors, and that follows God the most closely, then you allow The HS to carry on guiding you into all truth. This is what we do.

The least Biblical errors - in your personal opinion.

A church that follows God most closely - in your personal opinion.

The HS guiding you - in your personal opinion.

[4WD]

Actually you join the church that has the least Biblical errors, and that follows God the most closely, then you allow The HS to carry on guiding you into all truth. This is what we do.

The least Biblical errors - in your personal opinion.

A church that follows God most closely - in your personal opinion.

The HS guiding you - in your personal opinion.

The OP is  - in your personal opinion.

[chosenone]

Actually you join the church that has the least Biblical errors, and that follows God the most closely, then you allow The HS to carry on guiding you into all truth. This is what we do.

The least Biblical errors - in your personal opinion.

A church that follows God most closely - in your personal opinion.

The HS guiding you - in your personal opinion.

Its just the way God led me over the years. I was bought up in a very religious high church and he has led me right away from that.

[winsome]

As usual - so far neither of you have engaged with the points I made.

It seems to me back to front to decide on doctrine based on personal interpretation of the Bible. and then find a church that fits your interpretation. That's why we have 30,000 different protestant denominations and church groups. And the founders and followers of these churches all claim the Holy Spirit leads them into the truth. But that can't be true.

That isn't what Jesus set up.

Surely the right approach is to find the Church that Jesus founded  and promised to be with until the end of the age, and then take your doctrines from that.

[LexKnight]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

[Catholica]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

The ones to whom the Lord has granted His authority.

[LexKnight]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

The ones to whom the Lord has granted His authority.

Right, whom, not what system or organization, Catholic or Protestant. And even then, it's merely repeating what the Lord reveals to them, so He still resides as The Teacher. Even His apostles were commanded not to be called Teachers and Fathers, how much more to those who came after?

[Catholica]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

The ones to whom the Lord has granted His authority.

Right, whom, not what system or organization, Catholic or Protestant. And even then, it's merely repeating what the Lord reveals to them, so He still resides as The Teacher. Even His apostles were commanded not to be called Teachers and Fathers, how much more to those who came after?

I think you misunderstand the meaning behind Christ's words.

What do you make of this passage where Paul refers to himself as the Corinthian's "Father"?

1 Cor. 4:14-15
"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel".

Not only that, but Christ appointed the apostles as teachers:

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

[Buster D Body Crab]

The least Biblical errors - in your personal opinion.

A church that follows God most closely - in your personal opinion.

The HS guiding you - in your personal opinion.

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

[Catholica]

The least Biblical errors - in your personal opinion.

A church that follows God most closely - in your personal opinion.

The HS guiding you - in your personal opinion.

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

His post was charitable.  He was pointing out that what she wrote was her personal opinion.  Which it was.

Everyone has the ability to form an opinion.  There are good opinions based on objective reality and then there are bad opinions not based on objective reality.

winsome's opinion is based on objective reality, and is really not his opinion, but rather the teaching of the Church Christ founded.

Since we are all equal here in Christ, I'll be waiting to see your equal chastisement of 4WD for his reply to the post which you are chastising winsome for.  Should I be surprised that it hasn't happened already?  Or perhaps are you exhibiting bias?

[Buster D Body Crab]

The least Biblical errors - in your personal opinion.

A church that follows God most closely - in your personal opinion.

The HS guiding you - in your personal opinion.

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

His post was charitable.  He was pointing out that what she wrote was her personal opinion.  Which it was.

Everyone has the ability to form an opinion.  There are good opinions based on objective reality and then there are bad opinions not based on objective reality.

winsome's opinion is based on objective reality, and is really not his opinion, but rather the teaching of the Church Christ founded.

Since we are all equal here in Christ, I'll be waiting to see your equal chastisement of 4WD for his reply to the post which you are chastising winsome for.  Should I be surprised that it hasn't happened already?  Or perhaps are you exhibiting bias?

I'll wait for winsome to speak for himself since my question was addressed to him, thank you.

[winsome]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

[chosenone]

The RCatholic church has no authority at all over a large percentage of Christians, and certainly not in my life.

[chosenone]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

and yet when others point out the countless serious errors in the RC church, you claim we are attacking your faith.

[winsome]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

and yet when others point out the countless serious errors in the RC church, you claim we are attacking your faith.

Could you give me an example of that?

[chosenone]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

and yet when others point out the countless serious errors in the RC church, you claim we are attacking your faith.

Could you give me an example of that?

Of what, the errors or your claims?

You do also realise that most believers dont use those term 'protestant,' I certainly dont, and I think labels like that are wrong and pointless. I am a Christian and never label myself either by church or denomination. It seems to be R Catholics who are the few who do use such labels and get hung up on them

[winsome]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

and yet when others point out the countless serious errors in the RC church, you claim we are attacking your faith.

Could you give me an example of that?

Of what, the errors or your claims?

You do also realise that most believers dont use those term 'protestant,' I certainly dont, and I think labels like that are wrong and pointless. I am a Christian and never label myself either by church or denomination. It seems to be R Catholics who are the few who do use such labels and get hung up on them

An example of my accusing someone of attacking my faith when they point out a "serious error" in the Catholic Church

[Catholica]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

and yet when others point out the countless serious errors in the RC church, you claim we are attacking your faith.

Could you give me an example of that?

Of what, the errors or your claims?

You do also realise that most believers dont use those term 'protestant,' I certainly dont, and I think labels like that are wrong and pointless. I am a Christian and never label myself either by church or denomination. It seems to be R Catholics who are the few who do use such labels and get hung up on them

You seem to like to apply the label "R Catholic"...  Why the duplicity?

[Buster D Body Crab]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

Your truth in your opinion as a Proselytizing Roman Catholic. 

[MeMyself]

Actually you join the church that has the least Biblical errors, and that follows God the most closely, then you allow The HS to carry on guiding you into all truth. This is what we do.

The least Biblical errors - in your personal opinion.

A church that follows God most closely - in your personal opinion.

The HS guiding you - in your personal opinion.

The OP is  - in your personal opinion.

EXACTLY!

[Catholica]

Actually you join the church that has the least Biblical errors, and that follows God the most closely, then you allow The HS to carry on guiding you into all truth. This is what we do.

The least Biblical errors - in your personal opinion.

A church that follows God most closely - in your personal opinion.

The HS guiding you - in your personal opinion.

The OP is  - in your personal opinion.

EXACTLY!

Is it?

Can we look at the points he made and compare them with reality?  Which part is his opinion?  Does that opinion mirror reality?

If it mirrors reality then it is a justifiable opinion and should not be passed off so quickly.

[4WD]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

The ones to whom the Lord has granted His authority.

All that authority is clearly self assumed.  I see no indication whatsoever that Jesus granted any authority to anyone today or that He was going to.

[LexKnight]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

The ones to whom the Lord has granted His authority.

Right, whom, not what system or organization, Catholic or Protestant. And even then, it's merely repeating what the Lord reveals to them, so He still resides as The Teacher. Even His apostles were commanded not to be called Teachers and Fathers, how much more to those who came after?

I think you misunderstand the meaning behind Christ's words.

What do you make of this passage where Paul refers to himself as the Corinthian's "Father"?

1 Cor. 4:14-15
"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel".

Not only that, but Christ appointed the apostles as teachers:

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

He appointed some to teach, but there is still One Teacher. If there wasn't He lied, simple as that. I only mentioned father since it was in the passage but because you asked... not the way you make it. I get what Paul say because I know a brothers who's essentially my father-figure in the faith, much more experienced and knowledgeable, sharing what he shares and counseling the way he does just like a father would with his kid, but I'd never call him Fr, nor would he ever want me to. Paul even wrote that if an elder sin, admonish him like a father, and your brethren like brothers. It's relationship, dude, not positions and titles. There's only one actual Father, one Teacher, one Prophet one Pastor, and the gifts we have should reflect those aspects of His, not replace them.

You say I'm misinterpreting His words, I'm just simply taking it literally.

[Catholica]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

The ones to whom the Lord has granted His authority.

All that authority is clearly self assumed.  I see no indication whatsoever that Jesus granted any authority to anyone today or that He was going to.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there, or that it is made up.

Jesus said "I will be with you always, even to the end of the age".  See any of the 12 around anymore?  Maybe Jesus meant more than just the twelve.

[Catholica]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

The ones to whom the Lord has granted His authority.

Right, whom, not what system or organization, Catholic or Protestant. And even then, it's merely repeating what the Lord reveals to them, so He still resides as The Teacher. Even His apostles were commanded not to be called Teachers and Fathers, how much more to those who came after?

I think you misunderstand the meaning behind Christ's words.

What do you make of this passage where Paul refers to himself as the Corinthian's "Father"?

1 Cor. 4:14-15
"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel".

Not only that, but Christ appointed the apostles as teachers:

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

He appointed some to teach, but there is still One Teacher. If there wasn't He lied, simple as that. I only mentioned father since it was in the passage but because you asked... not the way you make it. I get what Paul say because I know a brothers who's essentially my father-figure in the faith, much more experienced and knowledgeable, sharing what he shares and counseling the way he does just like a father would with his kid, but I'd never call him Fr, nor would he ever want me to. Paul even wrote that if an elder sin, admonish him like a father, and your brethren like brothers. It's relationship, dude, not positions and titles. There's only one actual Father, one Teacher, one Prophet one Pastor, and the gifts we have should reflect those aspects of His, not replace them.

You say I'm misinterpreting His words, I'm just simply taking it literally.

Paul called himself a father, and made reference to many others as "fathers in faith" such as Father Abraham and Father Isaac.  These men were "called father".  So either Paul was violating the commandment of God, or you have taken Jesus' words too literally.  I've got my money that the problem is with your literal interpretation and not Paul's usage of the term.

Priests also share that relationship with us, one of a father in the faith, just as Paul was a father in the faith to Timothy.  So we use the title father, as they are a reflection of God's fathership to us. 

I agree that there is only one actual Father one Teacher.  That is all in exact agreement to the Catholic faith.  And our gifts never replace them.

[4WD]

Jesus said "I will be with you always, even to the end of the age".  See any of the 12 around anymore?  Maybe Jesus meant more than just the twelve.

And you base you faith in a religion on that "maybe"?  Interesting.

Beyond that, is Jesus not with them still? I am confident that they are He are together in heaven even now.  And I don't know about you, but I was given the gift of the Holy Spirit as promised in Acts 2:38 and else where.  It is through that indwelling Holy Spirit that Christ is with each and every one of His saints, including me and I hope you.

[LexKnight]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

The ones to whom the Lord has granted His authority.

Right, whom, not what system or organization, Catholic or Protestant. And even then, it's merely repeating what the Lord reveals to them, so He still resides as The Teacher. Even His apostles were commanded not to be called Teachers and Fathers, how much more to those who came after?

I think you misunderstand the meaning behind Christ's words.

What do you make of this passage where Paul refers to himself as the Corinthian's "Father"?

1 Cor. 4:14-15
"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel".

Not only that, but Christ appointed the apostles as teachers:

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

He appointed some to teach, but there is still One Teacher. If there wasn't He lied, simple as that. I only mentioned father since it was in the passage but because you asked... not the way you make it. I get what Paul say because I know a brothers who's essentially my father-figure in the faith, much more experienced and knowledgeable, sharing what he shares and counseling the way he does just like a father would with his kid, but I'd never call him Fr, nor would he ever want me to. Paul even wrote that if an elder sin, admonish him like a father, and your brethren like brothers. It's relationship, dude, not positions and titles. There's only one actual Father, one Teacher, one Prophet one Pastor, and the gifts we have should reflect those aspects of His, not replace them.

You say I'm misinterpreting His words, I'm just simply taking it literally.

Paul called himself a father, and made reference to many others as "fathers in faith" such as Father Abraham and Father Isaac.  These men were "called father".  So either Paul was violating the commandment of God, or you have taken Jesus' words too literally.  I've got my money that the problem is with your literal interpretation and not Paul's usage of the term.

Priests also share that relationship with us, one of a father in the faith, just as Paul was a father in the faith to Timothy.  So we use the title father, as they are a reflection of God's fathership to us. 

I agree that there is only one actual Father one Teacher.  That is all in exact agreement to the Catholic faith.  And our gifts never replace them.

Or perhaps it's your interpretation that would confuse what I present to Paul violating a command? You really expect Paul to give himself a title like that, especially when he considered himself least of the apostles? So taking the words of the Lord as they are is error, but saying Paul adopted a title of authority over the brethren is not?

[MeMyself]

Jesus said "I will be with you always, even to the end of the age".  See any of the 12 around anymore?  Maybe Jesus meant more than just the twelve.

And you base you faith in a religion on that "maybe"?  Interesting.

Beyond that, is Jesus not with them still? I am confident that they are He are together in heaven even now.  And I don't know about you, but I was given the gift of the Holy Spirit as promised in Acts 2:38 and else where.  It is through that indwelling Holy Spirit that Christ is with each and every one of His saints, including me and I hope you.

You are on a roll!  Another good post!

[Buster D Body Crab]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

and yet when others point out the countless serious errors in the RC church, you claim we are attacking your faith.

Could you give me an example of that?

Of what, the errors or your claims?

You do also realise that most believers dont use those term 'protestant,' I certainly dont, and I think labels like that are wrong and pointless. I am a Christian and never label myself either by church or denomination. It seems to be R Catholics who are the few who do use such labels and get hung up on them

You seem to like to apply the label "R Catholic"...  Why the duplicity?

I don't believe you know the meaning of the word, duplicity, otherwise you wouldn't make such an absurd charge.

Where is the Latin rite church located? Rome. Ergo, Roman Catholic.

If you were Eastern Rite Catholic I would refer to you and your church as Eastern Rite Catholic.

Roman Catholic, contrary to your claim in another thread that the term, Roman Catholic, is a pejorative to Catholics, is a particular denomination of Catholicism.

While all Christians are catholic in the scriptural sense wherein we are one in the universal church of Christ.
However, that does not apply under the Catechism of the Latin Rite Roman Catholic body of governors who argue that there is only one church that leads to salvation and that is the Roman Catholic Church. Thereby in that proclamation the RCC is rescinding the scriptures that identify, through Paul and Jesus himself, all faithful to Christ as one universal church, which is the body of faithful in Christ.

But you know this. This is what you and other Roman Catholics here are intimating in threads like this. That the RCC is the only true church. That the RCC faith is the only faith who's members are Christian.

Or do you think Protestants do not recall pope Benedict's proclamations on this matter?
He said that although Orthodox churches are true churches, they are defective because they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope.
Those remarks were part of a 16 page document prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. A Congregation Benedict use to lead.
(Sic)"....These ecclesial communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood ... cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called 'churches' in the proper sense," it (the 16 page document) said.
The document is similar to one written in 2000 by the Pope— who was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger at the time—that sparked an angry reaction from Protestant groups."

Source: CBC News <<<A Catholic News Agency
Catholic Church only true church, Vatican says


Basically, you and Winsome and a minority number of others who profess themselves to be Roman Catholic are attempting to reiterate what Benedict proclaimed. You are proselytizing his proclamation that no one is a member of a "true church" unless they recognize the primacy of the pope!

As  an aside, if as it is said by Catholica that the term, Roman Catholic, is a pejorative, i.e. an insult, one would think no Roman Catholic would ever refer to themselves as such. Nor would a Dictionary identify Roman Catholic as  a particular denomination when the Roman Catholic or Latin Rite church has a totally different tradition than do other rites, like eastern rite, etc...

Roman 
Also found in: Medical, Legal, Financial, Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
Ro·man  (rō′mən)
adj.
1.
a. Of or relating to ancient or modern Rome or its people or culture.
b. Of or relating to the Roman Empire.
2.
a. Of, relating to, or composed in the Latin language.
b. Of or using the Latin alphabet.
3. Of or relating to the Roman Catholic Church.

Further, because Roman Catholic is included in the following definition, it is important I think for readers to understand the import of what Benedict said when he stated , and no this is not a direct quote but is synopsizing his included remarks (per link), that no one who is member of any other church, even as the body of Christians who are the church of God in Christ due to faith alone, are so because they do not recognize the popes primacy.

primacy (ˈpraɪməsɪ)
n, pl -cies
1. the state of being first in rank, grade, etc
2. (Ecclesiastical Terms) Christianity the office, rank, or jurisdiction of a primate or senior bishop or (in the Roman Catholic Church) the pope


Readers need to keep in mind, in fact it is imperative if one is not Roman Catholic, that the pope, according to Roman Catholic teachings, represents God himself. (Keep the primacy claim by Benedict in mind when reading that.)

(Sic)"...But the supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself." SAPIENTIAE CHRISTIANAE
ON CHRISTIANS AS CITIZENS
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII JANUARY 10, 1890
To the Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, and Bishops of the Catholic world in Grace and Communion with the Apostolic See.

And this, from that same article source, repeals any Roman Catholic here from charging a Protestant with levying a pejorative when referring to Roman Catholics as Roman Catholics.


(Sic)"...4. It cannot be doubted that duties more numerous and of greater moment devolve on Catholics than upon such as are either not sufficiently enlightened in relation to the Catholic faith, or who are entirely unacquainted with its doctrines. Considering that forthwith upon salvation being brought out for mankind, Jesus Christ laid upon His Apostles the injunction to "preach the Gospel to every creature," He imposed, it is evident, upon all men the duty of learning thoroughly and believing what they were taught. This duty is intimately bound up with the gaining of eternal salvation: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not, shall be condemned."[2] But the man who has embraced the Christian faith, as in duty bound, is by that very fact a subject of the Church as one of the children born of her, and becomes a member of that greatest and holiest body, which it is the special charge of the Roman Pontiff to rule with supreme power, under its invisible head, Jesus Christ ."

None of this however is supported word for word by Christ and his teachings in the scripture of the Bible.
Rather, the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church interpolates scripture in its Catechism so as to empower the pope and the theocratic dictatorship that is the Roman Catholic church. The Catechism of the RCC informs of this.

Also, reading the entire new testament demonstrates Jesus was not starting the Roman Catholic church. None of the rites and rituals or man made traditions the RCC upholds today were practiced by the Apostles of Christ.
There was no pope among them, there was no teaching of purgatory wherein Jesus sacrifice is marginalized and the repentant are not actually fully cleansed of their sins when they accept Jesus dying on the cross in their stead. Rather, the RCC purgatory doctrine teaches that the faithful have to be punished after life so that clinging sins are burned off of them until they can enter Heaven cleansed through their time occupying that abode, purgatory. 
Keep in mind that there use to be a teaching of Limbo as well. But a former pope Benedict declared that was now closed.

To continue. The Apostles did not teach necromancy. Worship and reverence of the dead. Nor did they teach the faithful to collect body parts from the dead that would be decreed saints, as all faithful are saints, so that those could be kept as relics. (An object of religious veneration, especially a piece of the body or a personal item of a saint.)

Nor will the seeker find in scripture wherein Jesus taught his Disciples and the throngs to whom he preached to pray to the dead so that they will intercede on their behalf with him and God.

Nor did Jesus teach that infants must be baptized so as to save them from their sins. In fact Jesus taught that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven we must be as little children. If Children were sinners in Jesus eyes he would not have taught sinners that they are to be like sinners in order to see the kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus did not teach image worship nor did he command that graven images of his apostles be erected among the faithful. (2nd commandment, Exodus 20:4 (New American Standard Bible) "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth)

These are just a few examples of what Jesus did not do that the RCC does claim as his only earthly representative following his teachings.
Jesus destroyed the Jewish temple and called the hierarchy there who sought to command the law of God over the lay members, Vipers.
It is hard to imagine, well not so hard really, that he would then establish an edifice, contain himself and his truth in a denomination, and give himself as dictator in the body of a man, a pope, so as to command the laity yet again. Only this time instead of Jewish Rabbi's have them titled, Roman Catholic priests.

When Jesus told Peter he was the rock upon which he would build his church, and the church, the ekklēsia, Greek and translated to say, those called out, called forth, he was speaking of Peter taking forth the message of the Gospel, the good news, and those called forth to the word would then be Christs church.
1 Corinthians 12:27(AMP) Now you [collectively] are Christ's body and [individually] you are members of it, each part severally and distinct [each with his own place and function].

Ephesians 2:19-22  (AMP)
19 Therefore you are no longer outsiders (exiles, migrants, and aliens, excluded from the rights of citizens), but you now share citizenship with the saints (God's own people, consecrated and set apart for Himself); and you belong to God's [own] household.
20 You are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself the chief Cornerstone.
21 In Him the whole structure is joined (bound, welded) together harmoniously, and it continues to rise (grow, increase) into a holy temple in the Lord [a sanctuary dedicated, consecrated, and sacred to the presence of the Lord].
22 In Him [and in fellowship with one another] you yourselves also are being built up [into this structure] with the rest, to form a fixed abode (dwelling place) of God in (by, through) the Spirit.


Ephesians 4:11-13(AMP)
And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
12 His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),
13 [That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him.


All of this is offered with links and scriptural support not only in this reply but in the myriad number of replies that have been afforded in threads like this and that are designed by their author(s) to inform the non-Roman Catholic member , just this side of the rules, that they are not truly members of the one holy and apostolic church if they are not baptized as Roman Catholics. 

As you can read in Catholicas remarks in this reply quoted above. He believes he is teaching the truth. I respect that he believes he is living his truth.

Read for yourselves dear members here. Do not be led away from Christ and to the self-avowed primacy of a man who sits a throne in a church built in Rome under authority of Constantine in 326A.D. Because a mortal man, a member here, tells you the truth is the Roman Catholic church is the only true church.

The truth of God in Christ is that God is a spirit.

Not a man who decrees his primacy as the embodiment of God on earth.

If Jesus did decree that he would have told his Disciples to teach that they and the faithful shall see him when they look to a pope whom he will anoint so as to embody his spirit within himself as he lords over the Ecclesia. (church)

He did not. There is no scripture that says he did. All that is rebuttal here toward that one and his many friends who avow the RCC is God's only church is supported by scripture and links that refute that boast.

Jesus told his Apostles that when he left the earth he would send the Holy Spirit. And that Holy Spirit resides in all who hold faith in Jesus Christ who told us (His) Kingdom of Heaven is within us.

Jesus died to take away the sins of the world.
You, the faithful, do not have to suffer after you're dead to make up for what Jesus did not do on the cross. Jesus never once said you did.. Jesus saves completely!

God show the seeker the path to enlightenment and the true good news! That God has primacy in Heaven.  HALLELUJAH! And Amen.


(edit missing period)

[chosenone]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

and yet when others point out the countless serious errors in the RC church, you claim we are attacking your faith.

Could you give me an example of that?

Of what, the errors or your claims?

You do also realise that most believers dont use those term 'protestant,' I certainly dont, and I think labels like that are wrong and pointless. I am a Christian and never label myself either by church or denomination. It seems to be R Catholics who are the few who do use such labels and get hung up on them

You seem to like to apply the label "R Catholic"...  Why the duplicity?

Its what you call yourselves I believe   I am simply a Christian.

[winsome]

I'm just gonna address this, because I'm pretty sure it'll remove any ground your teaching here stands on.

Who has the authority to make definitive interpretations of scriptures?
Who has the authority to pronounce which doctrines are true?

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled; and whosoever shall humble himself shall be exalted.

The Lord. Who else?

The ones to whom the Lord has granted His authority.

Right, whom, not what system or organization, Catholic or Protestant. And even then, it's merely repeating what the Lord reveals to them, so He still resides as The Teacher. Even His apostles were commanded not to be called Teachers and Fathers, how much more to those who came after?

I think you misunderstand the meaning behind Christ's words.

What do you make of this passage where Paul refers to himself as the Corinthian's "Father"?

1 Cor. 4:14-15
"I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel".

Not only that, but Christ appointed the apostles as teachers:

Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

He appointed some to teach, but there is still One Teacher. If there wasn't He lied, simple as that. I only mentioned father since it was in the passage but because you asked... not the way you make it. I get what Paul say because I know a brothers who's essentially my father-figure in the faith, much more experienced and knowledgeable, sharing what he shares and counseling the way he does just like a father would with his kid, but I'd never call him Fr, nor would he ever want me to. Paul even wrote that if an elder sin, admonish him like a father, and your brethren like brothers. It's relationship, dude, not positions and titles. There's only one actual Father, one Teacher, one Prophet one Pastor, and the gifts we have should reflect those aspects of His, not replace them.

You say I'm misinterpreting His words, I'm just simply taking it literally.

Paul called himself a father, and made reference to many others as "fathers in faith" such as Father Abraham and Father Isaac.  These men were "called father".  So either Paul was violating the commandment of God, or you have taken Jesus' words too literally.  I've got my money that the problem is with your literal interpretation and not Paul's usage of the term.

Priests also share that relationship with us, one of a father in the faith, just as Paul was a father in the faith to Timothy.  So we use the title father, as they are a reflection of God's fathership to us. 

I agree that there is only one actual Father one Teacher.  That is all in exact agreement to the Catholic faith.  And our gifts never replace them.

Or perhaps it's your interpretation that would confuse what I present to Paul violating a command? You really expect Paul to give himself a title like that, especially when he considered himself least of the apostles? So taking the words of the Lord as they are is error, but saying Paul adopted a title of authority over the brethren is not?

In another thread Buster D Body Crab made the same comment about "call no man father". I replied that we do not call our priests father but we address them as father. He said I was playing with semantics.

But actually the problem with "call no man father" is the logical error of equivocation. Catholica has already shown how people are called father in the New Testament.

Here are some more examples:
"I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning." (1Jn 2:13)

"And Stephen said: "Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran" (Acts 7:2)

"Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming!"(Mk 11:10)

Matthew repeatedly refers to fathers in Matt 10:21-37, 15:4-6

Jesus refers to Abraham as father in Lk 16:24, as does James in Jas 2:21. Indeed in the same speech Jesus uses the word fathers (Mt 23:32).

From these we must conclude that Jesus did not mean call no man father in the sense of addressing them as "father".

Going back to equivocation (using the same word with different meanings in the same argument)

The Collins Concise Dictionary gives 28 [yes, twenty eight] different meanings to the verb "call". Some of these are specialist terms (e.g. to "call" at poker), but a couple are relevant here:.
8. (tr) to name or style: they called the dog Rover.
9. (tr) designate: they called him a coward.
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary [less comprehensive with only 8 meanings] puts it:-
"[3.] give a specified name to. address by a specified name, title, etc."

According to a Greek Orthodox priest, who is also a Greek translator, the word translated "call" in Mt 23:9 is misunderstood. I do not understand the technicalities of Greek but apparently the word used (kalesete) is not any of those used to imply a name or title, but means summon or call forth and is in the second person aorist active subjunctive plural form (and no, I don't understand what that is!).

It's the same word that is translated call in Mt 9:13, Mk 2:17 & Lk 5:32. "For I came not to call (kalesai) the righteous, but sinners." 

This would be the following from the Collins Concise Dictionary
1. to speak out or utter (words, sounds etc.) loudly so as to attract attention
2. (tr) to ask or order to come
or as the Concise Oxford English Dictionary put it:-
"[1.] cry out to (someone) in order to summon them or attract their attention."

This is a different meaning of "call" to that used when Protestants say Catholics call their priests father. Following this understanding means there is no contradiction in scripture, or in Catholics "calling" their priests father.

[winsome]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

Your truth in your opinion as a Proselytizing Roman Catholic.

Proselytizing? Is pointing out peceived errors proselytizing?

You seem to have no problem pointing out many, what you perceive to be errors in Catholic beliefs, even to the charge of blasphemy.

[Buster D Body Crab]

Well stated. And that is the entire platform for your personal opinion that is your original post for this thread starter.

Your consistent platform and agenda appears to be to condemn the Protestant faith just this side of the flaming rules.

I would say if you are secure in your faith and are a new creature as you professed in other posts that you would consider being more charitable considering this is a Christian forum. Not an exclusively Roman Catholic forum.
As the scriptures say, all are one in Christ Jesus.

I'm pointing out one of the fundamental flaws in Protestantism. Is that wrong?

I think it is charitable to do so and to point out where the truth is to be found.

Your truth in your opinion as a Proselytizing Roman Catholic.

Proselytizing? Is pointing out peceived errors proselytizing?

You seem to have no problem pointing out many, what you perceive to be errors in Catholic beliefs, even to the charge of blasphemy.

I'm pointing out some of the fundamental flaws in Roman Catholicism. Is that wrong?

This thread purports to preach about the Roman Catholic religion and its authority that, per you , is superior to all other Christian traditions. Therefore, the RCC history, its beliefs, the Catechism and the papal issues wherein that authority is claimed to derive its foundation or right to be in authority over the faithful, is relevant.

Furthermore, if the material I shared here is considered ignorance that is not my responsibility because those sources wherein the excerpts derive are Roman Catholic.