Million Dollar Baby Controversy

[Son of a Preacher Man]

I'm guessing I'm just not very sensitive to characters making unusual, bad, or wrong choices in movies.  I just didn't see the ending of this film as leftist in any way.  It was based on a story written by a former boxing trainer so I don't think it had any kind of agenda.  I just felt like the end of the film came about based on choices those characters might make under those circumstances.

I thought it was a great movie.  I wrote a positive review of it that should make its way to GCM eventually.  I think it was very thought provoking and discussion promoting.  It's my pick for picture of the year.   What does everybody else think?

Note: I was purposefully vague in this post just in case somebody stumbles in here that might want to see the film.  But this is your last chance to escape!!!  We will discuss the end of this film in the thread.

[marc]

Unfortunately FoxNews and others haven't been so vague.   :angry:

[boringoldguy]

I didn't want to go because I have boxed (a little),  I love boxing and women's boxing events tend to turn into freak shows (although the high-profile men's matches are starting to get that way.)

But my wife insisted and I went anyway.    I was extremely pleased with how they handled the woman's development as a fighter,  and it was generally a very good movie.   But I didn't like the end of the story and I especially didn't like the note of approval that Morgan Freeman's character gave to the whole deal.    

I appreciated that the Priest told Eastwood he'd be lost forever -  but I got to thinking that Eastwood's character probably wanted to get lost.

[segell]

Haven't seen the movie.  But, bog, I've boxed myself and have been a fan for years.  In my life, the 70's and early 80's were the golden years of boxing - in all weights.  I could go down the list of greats from that era.  Nothing like it now, although there are a couple that would fit.  Bernard Hopkins being one.

Anyway, what level of boxing were you engaged in?  I sparred for a few weeks with a guy named Blair Richardson.  He had been British middleweight champ and fought out of Canada.  He fought Dick Tiger in the early 60's.  What an experience.

[boringoldguy]

Not at the level you did;  when I was in jr high and high school, boxing was part of the off-season training program for anyone who wanted to play football.  It was supposed to make us aggressive.    That's as far as I carried it.

[segell]

You probably did more than me.  I spent the summer of my senior year sparring.  It's when I really learned to love the sport/art of boxing.  I hated my nose getting hit (it kind of takes a very subtle right turn...)

(Although I did have a sneaky left hand.)

[winky]

I just saw this movie this past weekend and I agree with SOAPman. I thought it was great, and I don't take issue with the ending (except, I did wish for more insight into Frankie's daughter and what the situation was there and how it turned out).

Unlike BOG, I hated the fact that priest told him he would be eternally lost if he gave in to Maggie's request (in addition to hating the fact that the priest called him a blanking-pagan and treated him horribly throughout the film).

I just want to watch one well-done major motion picture that portrays church leaders as good people who aren't arrogant, condemning know-it-alls! [/rant]

When Frankie went to the priest for advice in the end, I wanted the priest to pray with him, look at scripture with him, discuss the value of life and the hope of eternity, discuss whether Maggie was a Christian, and maybe even admit that he didn't know the right answer about what to to do. Too much to ask, I realize.

I don't think Frankie was looking to get lost at all. It seemed apparent to me that he was seeking forgiveness/atonement (perhaps in the wrong places) for whatever had gone wrong with his daughter.

Call me a postmodern if you like, but I just can't look at a situation like the one Maggie was in and know for sure what is the right thing to do.

Wendy

[segell]

I saw the movie, too.  Although I liked Finding Neverland more, I thought the performances in MDB were flawless.  

Hats off especially to Hillary Swank.  What a performance.  I think the boxing sequences were the best  choreographed in the history of cinema.  \"Rocky\" couldn't come close.  And Ms. Swank is the best boxer ever in the history - beats Stallone, Newman, Anthony Quinn - any of the actors who portrayed boxers before her.  She really and truly knows how to throw combinations off the jab and hook.  Her right hand was particularly good.  How she, through her character, progressed from raw talent to polished professional was mind boggling to me.  

I leaned over to my wife after her first 30 seconds on screen and whispered:  \"she already broke my heart\".  A truly bravura performance.  And Morgan and Clint ain't chopped liver.

As to the moral dilemna, how sad.  From first hand experience with a dear high school friend breaking her neck and being quadrapalegic, I witnessed the torment one goes through.  Yet, a 15 year old young man explored the Scriptures with that young lady (who wanted to die) and together they looked for answers.  That young woman grew up and is Joni Eareckson Tada.  God has used her in extraordinary ways through her ministry to the disabled - in body and spirit.  God took away her athleticism and young, strong body to raise Jesus high through her life.  What a difference a savior can make.

Steve

[boringoldguy]

Wendy,

One evening a young man,  as close as a brother to my son and almost a son to me,   told his father he was having trouble breathing.    They took him to the hospital,  and the next morning he was on life support.   That was 8 years ago.   The last steps he ever walked were his steps into the hospital emergency room.    Nobody even knows what caused this healthy young high school athlete to become paralyzed over night.

At times he wanted to die, but instead, he lived.  He finished college, got a master's degree,  and today he's employed,  living on his own and supporting himself.  (I'm grateful that God allowed me to play a small part in helping him find his current job.)    He won't marry;  won't have children,  won't do most of the things we dream about for our kids.  But he's alive and he's helping others,  and he's a good friend to lots of people who need one.    

\"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three . . . \"
There are times when are so dark that it seems obscene to speak of hope.  It's exactly then that hope is the precious thing we have.     Frankie let go-not just of the hope that Maggie could have a meaningful life;  he let go of the hope that his daughter would forgive him, that God would hear him, or that anything good would ever happen.   When that happens,  everything is lost.

You can't condemn Frankie,  but you have to mourn his choice.
Call me a premodern,  but life doesn't belong to us,  and hope is sacred.   We can't approve of ending either.

[winky]

It's a tricky subject, and I certainly don't mean to imply that I approve of suicide.

But I wonder if it is really suicide to choose not to be kept alive by machines? I wonder if our medical technology has gotten ahead of us and is keeping people alive in ways that maybe God never intended. I don't know. It's just a thought.

I never got the impression that Frankie gave up hope for his daughter. He prayed for her every night and wrote her a letter week after week despite them being consistently returned. (And he even stored all those letters in a box, as if hoping he would someday share them all with her.) Was there something at the end that I missed that implied he stopped doing that?

[boringoldguy]

That's what I got out of Morgan Freeman's letter to the daughter,  telling her \"what kind of man your Father was.\"

That's the reason I thought Frankie wanted to get lost.

[winky]

That's the great part about vague endings, huh?

I pictured Frankie off running Ira's Diner or some such place, not able to bring himself to return to training boxers and thus having started a new life.

I figured Morgan Freeman's character (blanking on the name) wrote to the daughter in hopes that she might open a letter from him if not from Frankie.

Who knows.

Overall, good and, obviously, thought provoking movie.

Wendy

[Nevertheless]

I haven't seen the movie, in fact I don't think I'd even heard about it before today, but there was a segment on the 6:00 news about it.  Apparently many of the people in Theodosia, MO (not far from where I live) are taking exception to the way they and their town were characterized.  One man said that he'd never heard such a twangy accent in this area.  Others thought the town was portrayed as a run-down backwater where most of the people were on welfare.  Were they just being touchy?

[marc]

Living in West Virginia, I just can't imagine that an area would be portrayed like that in a movie!  

[Nevertheless]

I guess that's the sarcasm smiley, hmm?
:givingkiss:

[rick6886]

I just saw the movie last night, if you have not seen it I would highly reccommend it. It was very well done and the best movie I have seen since The Passion of the Christ.

I have read all the posts in this thread (very well said by everyone). Of course the big issue surrounding the movie was the right to die issue. I thought the movie handled this well and the media may more of an issue of it than the movie did.

Something my wife told me got me thinking, I said although I sympathize with Frankie's plight in the movie we need to be careful and not try to play the hand of God. My wife responded with, aren't we playing the hand of God when we are using tubes and machines to keep people alive rather than letting the natural order of things take their course.

I realize their is no right answer to this but I think my wife has a very valid point, what do you guys think?

my humble 2 cents

Rick

[ConnieLard]

I agree wholeheartedly with your wife.  (Haven't seen the movie, though.)

[kalen]

I second that.

[mike]

I third that.

Rick, your wife is a smart lady.

Mike

[boringoldguy]

Wendy,

One evening a young man,  as close as a brother to my son and almost a son to me,   told his father he was having trouble breathing.    They took him to the hospital,  and the next morning he was on life support.   That was 8 years ago.   The last steps he ever walked were his steps into the hospital emergency room.    Nobody even knows what caused this healthy young high school athlete to become paralyzed over night.

At times he wanted to die, but instead, he lived.  He finished college, got a master's degree,  and today he's employed,  living on his own and supporting himself.  (I'm grateful that God allowed me to play a small part in helping him find his current job.)    He won't marry;  won't have children,  won't do most of the things we dream about for our kids.  But he's alive and he's helping others,  and he's a good friend to lots of people who need one.    

\"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three . . . \"
There are times when are so dark that it seems obscene to speak of hope.  It's exactly then that hope is the precious thing we have.     Frankie let go-not just of the hope that Maggie could have a meaningful life;  he let go of the hope that his daughter would forgive him, that God would hear him, or that anything good would ever happen.   When that happens,  everything is lost.

I told this story six months ago.    Today I have to confess that  I lied.   I stated that the young man in the story wouldn't marry;  last night,  he did.

It's been a suprise to many of his friends - a whirlwind courtship that lasted only about three months from first date to walking down the aisle.

Obviously, as an old fellow,  I have many concerns.   I hope they didn't rush things too much.   I hope his bride really understands what marriage to a paralyzed person means.
But I hope -  and I have something for which to hope.

I said before and will repeat -  life and hope are gifts from God.    We have no right ever to surrender either.     So,  Rick, I don't second your wife, and I don't third her.    I think it's our duty always to come down on the side of life, and on the side of hope.

[rick6886]

I said before and will repeat -  life and hope are gifts from God.    We have no right ever to surrender either.     So,  Rick, I don't second your wife, and I don't third her.    I think it's our duty always to come down on the side of life, and on the side of hope.

If you think about your answer a little more you may have inadvertantly sided with my wife.

You said life and hope are gifts from God, she would agree wholeheartedly and add they are NOT gifts from tubes and machines.

You also said you always come down on the side of life, again I would question if that is life in its natural state or unnatural being held together by man made contraptions state.

If we start relying on tubes, machines and technology for hope where does that leave God?

I realize each circumstance is unique, and I am not saying everyone has to pull the plug... On the other hand I have told my wife (long before Million Dolar Baby) if I ever get to a point where I can only live by being on a machine, pull the plug...

Why are we so afraid to die and be in a perfect state with our creator?

repsectfully my humble 2 cents

Rick[/color]

[spurly]

Women's boxing does nothing for me other than to irritate me.  Why should ladies get in a ring and pound on each other?  It just isn't ladylike.  Ban the sport.

[boringoldguy]

I said before and will repeat -  life and hope are gifts from God.    We have no right ever to surrender either.     So,  Rick, I don't second your wife, and I don't third her.    I think it's our duty always to come down on the side of life, and on the side of hope.

If you think about your answer a little more you may have inadvertantly sided with my wife.[/color]

Nope.

[Mere Nick]

Women's boxing does nothing for me other than to irritate me.  Why should ladies get in a ring and pound on each other?  It just isn't ladylike.  Ban the sport.

Back in the sixth grade we used to egg on Rhonda and Anne to fight each other during recess.  We found it very entertaining.

[spurly]

Women's boxing does nothing for me other than to irritate me.  Why should ladies get in a ring and pound on each other?  It just isn't ladylike.  Ban the sport.

Back in the sixth grade we used to egg on Rhonda and Anne to fight each other during recess.  We found it very entertaining.[/color]

So you are one of the ones who are promoting women's boxing?  What kind of gentleman are you?  The last fight between girls I witnessed was while substituting in a sixth grade class.  It was ugly.  Nose rings were ripped out.  I don't ever want to witness another catfight.

[Lost Highway]

Women's boxing does nothing for me other than to irritate me.  Why should ladies get in a ring and pound on each other?  It just isn't ladylike.  Ban the sport.

Back in the sixth grade we used to egg on Rhonda and Anne to fight each other during recess.  We found it very entertaining.

Yeye cat fight![/color]

[Son of a Preacher Man]

It just isn't ladylike.

And what?  Football is a gentleman's game I suppose?   How 'bout when my Christian college baseball coach used to ask me to bean the next batter?  Was that gentlemanly?  Christian?  

Track isn't ladylike either, for that matter.  Nor is basketball or soccer or lacrosse or any sport for that matter.  Sports aren't \"lady-like\" at all, except perhaps figure skating.  Gymnastics certianly isn't \"lady-like\" with all the spreading of the legs and such, and then again, that would rule out figure skating, too, huh?    

But that's a fairly misogynistic point of view, I must confess.

I seldom disagree with you bud, but this will have to be one.  
::girlsmiley::