no Holy Ghost needed - we have the scriptures

[AVZ]

Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441):

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."


Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302):

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."


Seems clear to me.

I believe the Vatican has since changed their minds. Every path leads to God except the narrow one.

Nope. The Vatican has not changed their mind...they can't.
These statements are dogma's. Dogma's are infallible and can't be changed.

And yep, they have now explained the dogma's as an application of convenience so that even Muslims are part of the plan of salvation.
The path indeed has become a highway.

[His Kid]

Im still in the learning process of the church,but before I decided to follow Catholic teaching,I came to the relization that salvation is not a permanent thing untill we are dead and rejected any form of calvinistic teaching of any kind meaning that I reject any teaching that even suggests that God interferes with human will or that the cross took away the penalty for sin except under the covenant of being obedient to Christ.So I reject the notion that the bible says anyone is unconditionally saved.Even groups that dont teach this still dont draw the lines of when a person is saved and when they are lost its still a grey area even to them,this is what lead me to believe that evangelical christianity is not in line with the truth of scripture when it comes to salvation,sin and death,the truth I believe of salvation is that one must be in an obedient relationship with Christ all of the time,thats calls for conditions,sin has the same results if you have been saved or not,the cross didnt change the the results of sin for anyone,I accepted this as truth before I ever considered the Catholic church and to believe otherwise is to believe a myth.That said basically I know that in the Catholic church there is a traditionalism that goes back before the second vatican council of 1965 which there were some changes made basically and this is my understanding of it which was meant to make it easier for non Catholics to become Catholics,which may or may not have been used and abused by some in which many traditionalists now oppose but still are in obedience to the what was accepted by the council of the church and the Pope.Im not positive but I believe you have to be Catholic before you can be counted as a heritic,those outside the church in ignorance but believe in Christ and have been baptised according to tradition in the name of Father Son and Holy Ghost and are not living in a state of mortal sin would be considered to be following the basic conditions of being what is called the state of grace even though they are not Catholic they are following basic Catholic teaching,I could be wrong but I believe that this was one of the results of the second vatican council of the 1960sCatholica or other Catholics here may be able to give more insight into this and I welcome any correction from other Catholics.

Council of Florence, Cantate Domino (1441):

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."


Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302):

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."


Seems clear to me.

I believe the Vatican has since changed their minds. Every path leads to God except the narrow one.

Nope. The Vatican has not changed their mind...they can't.
These statements are dogma's. Dogma's are infallible and can't be changed.

And yep, they have now explained the dogma's as an application of convenience so that even Muslims are part of the plan of salvation.
The path indeed has become a highway.

Indeed the path to hell has always been a highway.

[LexKnight]

Are you Catholic Lexknight?It was my understanding that to be considered a heritic,one would have to be a Catholic first before one could be considered a heritic and that the church accepts the faith and  trinitarian baptism of any group or persons as being in agreement of Catholic teaching and that if said persons are not in a state of mortal sin being in agreement with Catholic teaching can indeed be saved?not because their group says so but because they are in line with the teaching of the church.

To be fair, I wouldn't think it's wrong either. If one is aware of the truth but reject it, he wi)  have no favor and his blood is on his hand. If the RCC was established in truth, it wouldn't be an erred doctrine. Thing is... it depends on the RCC being established in truth, which it isn't. If it was, then yes non-Catholics would be anathema.

And heresy simply means division or sect, so of course the Protestants are heretics in regards to the RCC.

[James56]

All opinions.

[His Kid]

All opinions.

I just hope you heed the warning. Do a little research on the Vatican observatory on Mt. Graham in Arizona and the telescope next to it called Lucifer.

[James56]

By whos authority does your warning come from?

[Catholica]

The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

[His Kid]

By whos authority does your warning come from?

What? Are you interested in facts or not? Do the research or don't. I do not care. I'm not invested in your life.

[His Kid]

The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

[Catholica]

The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat.  Got it. 

[His Kid]

The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat.  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

[Catholica]

The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat.  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

...and I'll remember how you made no rational argument for or against anything ever and laced what you did write with distortions and half-truths, and I will disregard it.

[His Kid]

The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat.  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

...and I'll remember how you made no rational argument for or against anything ever and laced what you did write with distortions and half-truths, and I will disregard it.

You can find out yourself what the Vatican is doing on Mt. Graham in union with the telescope Lucifer. You have already decided you believe there might be aliens who need to be reached, so you won't need to be convinced when it happens. They are demons, not aliens, but you won't care. You've already bought into the lie.

[Catholica]

The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat.  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

...and I'll remember how you made no rational argument for or against anything ever and laced what you did write with distortions and half-truths, and I will disregard it.

You can find out yourself what the Vatican is doing on Mt. Graham in union with the telescope Lucifer. You have already decided you believe there might be aliens who need to be reached, so you won't need to be convinced when it happens. They are demons, not aliens, but you won't care. You've already bought into the lie.

I already know all about it.  I've read about Mt. Graham in various times in the past when other anti-Catholics have brought it up.

By the way,

1) The other telescope just happens to be located near the Vatican telescope, but the two groups are not related nor does the Vatican have anything to do with the other telescope
2) The Vatican telescope is not used to search for E.T., and
3) the other telescope is now called "LUCI" not "LUCIFER"

And that 1) and 3) should even be considered significant is like saying that because the cat in the movie "Cinderella" is named "Lucifer", then the mice who live in Cinderella's house must be in league with the devil.  It's really that ridiculous to even make the association.  To make it significant is quite a stretch; one can only wonder what reason one would have to make that stretch.

[His Kid]

The Vatican has always believed that the heavens proclaim the glory of God and have sought to advance scientific knowledge about the heavens.

This whole "accepting alien life forms being the sign of the apocalypse" is tinfoil hat stuff; reasonable people rightly laugh it off for the farce that it is.

You have been very well primed to accept the Great Deception. There is already much activity above Mt. Graham in Arizona. The Vatican proclaims they want to contact alien life and baptize them into the RCC. LOL. They aren't life forms from other planets. It is all demonic activity.

You have been warned.

Warned by someone wearing a tinfoil hat.  Got it.

If mocking me makes you feel better, that's cool... but one day when this is all going down,  you will remember this conversation...

...and I'll remember how you made no rational argument for or against anything ever and laced what you did write with distortions and half-truths, and I will disregard it.

You can find out yourself what the Vatican is doing on Mt. Graham in union with the telescope Lucifer. You have already decided you believe there might be aliens who need to be reached, so you won't need to be convinced when it happens. They are demons, not aliens, but you won't care. You've already bought into the lie.

I already know all about it.  I've read about Mt. Graham in various times in the past when other anti-Catholics have brought it up.

By the way,

1) The other telescope just happens to be located near the Vatican telescope, but the two groups are not related nor does the Vatican have anything to do with the other telescope
2) The Vatican telescope is not used to search for E.T., and
3) the other telescope is now called "LUCI" not "LUCIFER"

And that 1) and 3) should even be considered significant is like saying that because the cat in the movie "Cinderella" is named "Lucifer", then the mice who live in Cinderella's house must be in league with the devil.  It's really that ridiculous to even make the association.  To make it significant is quite a stretch; one can only wonder what reason one would have to make that stretch.

LUCI is a nickname. The telescope is still called Lucifer. You obviously haven't done the research you claim to have done. Further, the Vatican and Lucifer are working closely together. You can deny it, but that changes nothing.


As Popular Science explains, LUCIFER is an acronym for the instruments lengthy title, "Large Binocular Telescope Near-infrared Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research." This instrument is attached to the University of Arizona's Large Binocular Telescope (LBT) located on Mt. Graham in south eastern Arizona. The Vatican-owned Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope (VATT) is right next door.


The bottom line is, the Vatican is seeking extraterrestrials in order to share the gospel with them and baptize them into the RCC. These 'beings' will not question the authority of the Vatican. It's all a set up and will progress into the Pope declaring to be God on earth. He's not far from that right now. He basically already claims to be Christ on earth. He is one step away from claiming to be God. You already believe the lie, so you are not someone that even needs to hear this. You have fallen for the Great Deception and will never question anything the Vatican tells you. Just watch it all unfold. It's coming.

[Catholica]

Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/

[His Kid]

Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/

Obviously someone is going to try to debunk the story because the Vatican is not ready to speak about it publicly. Eventually the Vatican will speak out it openly because that is the plan. They WILL make contact with extraterrestrials. Even you believe they will. I'm not sure which part of this you don't believe, but it will happen. Contact is coming and the Vatican is the main player.

What is it that you don't believe about what I have said?

[Catholica]

Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/

Obviously someone is going to try to debunk the story because the Vatican is not ready to speak about it publicly.

So the astronomer who had his words distorted was 1) willing to talk to an anonymous reporter that he never met, but 2) the Vatican is not ready to talk about it publicly?  If 2) was true then 1) would not have happened in the first place. Rather, the author is trying to make a buck on a conspiracy theory book, truth be damned.

[His Kid]

Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/

Obviously someone is going to try to debunk the story because the Vatican is not ready to speak about it publicly.

So the astronomer who had his words distorted was 1) willing to talk to an anonymous reporter that he never met, but 2) the Vatican is not ready to talk about it publicly?  If 2) was true then 1) would not have happened in the first place. Rather, the author is trying to make a buck on a conspiracy theory book, truth be damned.

What is the astronomer debunking exactly?

[His Kid]

Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

As far as Jesus being a 'hybrid', that claim is not made. The authors are merely speculating on what elaborate story the Vatican MIGHT come up with to explain the events at that time. They will come up with some ridiculous lie that many will believe. They have a very long and successful history of doing exactly that.

They will happen. The Vatican is attempting to make contact and they will.

[Catholica]

Here is an article that debunks the preposterous claims that Tom Horn, the fabricator of the fantasies "His Kid" believes, makes in his ridiculous book:

http://barthsnotes.com/2013/05/01/vatican-astronomer-claims-thomas-horn-twisted-misquoted-his-words-invented-utter-falsehoods/

Obviously someone is going to try to debunk the story because the Vatican is not ready to speak about it publicly.

So the astronomer who had his words distorted was 1) willing to talk to an anonymous reporter that he never met, but 2) the Vatican is not ready to talk about it publicly?  If 2) was true then 1) would not have happened in the first place. Rather, the author is trying to make a buck on a conspiracy theory book, truth be damned.

What is the astronomer debunking exactly?

He is debunking the "quotes" of him the charlatan of an author who wrote the book from whence the conspiracy theory to which you subscribe came.

Here is his full statement, from http://brotherguy.livejournal.com/74394.html, emphasis his:

Br. Guy Consolmagno, the Vatican, Alien Extraterrestrial UFOs, and stuff...

The title is designed to reach anyone who has heard about me from a web site or book purporting to express my views on these subjects.

About a year ago, an author (whom I will not name or link to) conducted an extensive interview with me by email. I thought he was a legitimate journalist. However, seeing the ways in which he has twisted, misquoted, and invented utter falsehoods from the things I said, I have come to suspect that he is either a knave or a fool.

There are no Vatican secrets about UFOs. Neither I nor anyone I know has any evidence that extraterrestrials exist. We do not believe that "Jesus is a hybrid" or any of the other bizarre claims that this author makes. He is either seriously deluded, or a deliberate con-man.

Let me phrase this as strongly as I can: I do not know of any credible evidence at all that there has ever been contact of any form between extraterrestrial aliens and Earth. Period. I cannot imagine a circumstance where such contact could be kept secret for very long. And I say this, not only as an active astronomer for 40 years, but also as someone who knows lots of people in the SETI community (who would love to have such evidence), and as someone who's been an officer in the American Astronomical Society and in the International Astronomical Union. If there was something like this going on, we'd all be talking about it. There isn't, and we aren't.

That is a quote taken directly from one of the emails that I sent this author!

Here are some other things that I sent him in my emails:

... talking about Unidentified Flying Objects, which is to say, odd things seen in the sky, I have no problem with that. There are objects in the sky, presumably flying, that many people have a hard time identifying. "UFO" is certainly the right term for that! But once you insist that they are evidence of aliens, or government conspiracies, or for that matter once you try to fit these phenomena into any other preconceived notion, they are no longer "unidentified" -- you have implicitly identified them. And I am highly skeptical of any proposed identifications that rely on aliens, extraterrestrials, conspiracies, etc. ... We have no artifacts from UFOs in our labs. We have nothing to test. Thus my skepticism.

I also note that there is a population of very skilled observers who spend a lot of time outdoors at night, without any connection with (or control by) the government or any other "official" institution: these are the large number of amateur astronomers around the world who own their own telescopes and spend hundreds of hours observing the skies. And you find that these people tend to be the most skeptical of all about UFO claims. Because they know the sky really well, and spend a lot of time looking into it, they are very familiar with what is out there... and though they see many unusual things in the sky, they are able to identify them without recourse to unknown, unidentified causes.

In response to a question about "official positions from the Vatican" about extraterrestrial life, I wrote to him:

There are no "official Vatican positions" on such topics. Nor is it a new idea; you can find people talking about this over the last thousand years... I have no idea how the Church would respond. It has been the subject of any number of science fiction stories; most of them not very good, I'm afraid.

Finally, some of his material appears to have originated in an article that appeared in a British newspaper in 2005, apparently referring to something called "The Jesus Seed".  When he asked me about it, I replied:

Virtually everything in this article (about me at least) is wrong... sometimes in trivial ways (I'm not a Star Trek fan), sometimes in important ways (nothing I said in my Catholic Truth Society booklet is new, much less controversial). Some of it might simply be the author's honest misunderstanding of what I was trying to say, because he read it in the light of his own unshakable prejudices... But most of it is pure invention on his part.

(A few trivial words in the above quotes have been altered so that they make sense in the context. I cannot possibly see how he can derive the conclusions purported to come from me, in the light of these direct statements I wrote to him.)

This conspiracy that you believe, His Kid, is the fabrication of a charlatan or a mad man, one of the two.

[Catholica]

Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

[His Kid]

Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

There is so much activity in the skies that cannot be explained. There is UFO activity. An abundance. The Vatican is quite interested in it. You obviously don't get it now, but you will. When you see it all play out, you will remember this conversation.

Maybe you should have a chat with your pal Thadeous. He believes in extraterrestrials and has no problem accepting the fact that the Vatican is trying to make contact.

However, it hardly matters. I just gave the warning. You can laugh all you like. I don't mind. It is good news that you don't believe in aliens. I don't either. They are demons, not aliens. Maybe when the Vatican announces they have made contact, you will finally walk away from that religion.

[kensington]

James 56... you might want to do some research, because the Vatican does indeed declare the "Other" ..  Spirit filled, born again, people who are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and baptized are saved.  But, not Catholic.

I realize that is conflicting to things you may have been told or that others are saying.  But, it's true. 

And we know that the Bible says these saved ones are the Biblical church who await the return of Christ.  You will not go to hell for not being Catholic. 

[AVZ]

Catholica


Your source does not even believe in extraterrestrials, Many Catholics do, as does those working on the project trying to find them from Mt. Graham by instruction of the Vatican. What in the heck do you think they are doing up there, anyway? lol

Studying the stars, as they have since the day a Catholic invented the telescope.  The laughable thing is that you think they are looking for aliens.  How backwards.

What does religion have to do with inventing the telescope?
Anyway, who do you claim invented it?

[kensington]

A Dutchman who may or may not have been Catholic invented the telescope.  He applied for the first patent in 1608,  and by that time the Dutch were splitting from Catholic to Protestant.  In the 1500's the Dutch were Catholic.  But, there is no evidence that the person who invented the telescope was.  But, it's probable.

[His Kid]

A Dutchman who may or may not have been Catholic invented the telescope.  He applied for the first patent in 1608,  and by that time the Dutch were splitting from Catholic to Protestant.  In the 1500's the Dutch were Catholic.  But, there is no evidence that the person who invented the telescope was.  But, it's probable.

What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.

[kensington]

What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

[AVZ]

What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

What I read is that a Dutch guy patented the telescope. Doesn't mean he invented it.
But even so, if the argument holds that something is right because a Catholic did it...then who invented the mafia?
Franco was a Catholic, so were Hitler, Mussolini, Petain and Ferdinand Marcos.
Ever heard about drug trade and drug murders? What denomination are these people in South America again?

If Catholica's argument is valid then the RCC is a criminal organisation.

[kensington]

I was not speaking to the good or evil in who did or did not invent it.  I was just saying...  it was someone Dutch and they could have been protestant. It's not an absolute that they were Catholic, but there is a good chance.

[Hexalpa]

What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

What I read is that a Dutch guy patented the telescope. Doesn't mean he invented it.
But even so, if the argument holds that something is right because a Catholic did it...then who invented the mafia?
Franco was a Catholic, so were Hitler, Mussolini, Petain and Ferdinand Marcos.
Ever heard about drug trade and drug murders? What denomination are these people in South America again?

If Catholica's argument is valid then the RCC is a criminal organisation.

Hitler was going down the path to wipe out the Mafia for good and that's a fact and another fact is that the USA helped support the Mafia.

Hitler was baptised a RC, but he sure was no supporter of the RCC.

Hitler was not on about the Holy Ghost at all and nor were all the other people you just mentioned above, all of them were worldly in their ambition.

The RCC calls it's self a Church of Saints and sinners, maybe if they kicked out the sinners all would be ok, but they will not kick out the sinners.

[mclees8]

What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

What I read is that a Dutch guy patented the telescope. Doesn't mean he invented it.
But even so, if the argument holds that something is right because a Catholic did it...then who invented the mafia?
Franco was a Catholic, so were Hitler, Mussolini, Petain and Ferdinand Marcos.
Ever heard about drug trade and drug murders? What denomination are these people in South America again?

If Catholica's argument is valid then the RCC is a criminal organisation.

Hitler was going down the path to wipe out the Mafia for good and that's a fact and another fact is that the USA helped support the Mafia.

Hitler was baptised a RC, but he sure was no supporter of the RCC.

Hitler was not on about the Holy Ghost at all and nor were all the other people you just mentioned above, all of them were worldly in their ambition.

The RCC calls it's self a Church of Saints and sinners, maybe if they kicked out the sinners all would be ok, but they will not kick out the sinners.

Kicked out the sinners   

[His Kid]

What doesn't seem probable to me is that every Dutch person was Catholic. That doesn't even make sense.


They weren't.  I said the telescope was invented in the early 1600's and by that time the Dutch Protestant split had started. It's a could be or not situation as to the inventor being Catholic as you stated.

This may clarify Dutch religion history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Dutch_religion

What I read is that a Dutch guy patented the telescope. Doesn't mean he invented it.
But even so, if the argument holds that something is right because a Catholic did it...then who invented the mafia?
Franco was a Catholic, so were Hitler, Mussolini, Petain and Ferdinand Marcos.
Ever heard about drug trade and drug murders? What denomination are these people in South America again?

If Catholica's argument is valid then the RCC is a criminal organisation.

Hitler was going down the path to wipe out the Mafia for good and that's a fact and another fact is that the USA helped support the Mafia.

Hitler was baptised a RC, but he sure was no supporter of the RCC.

Hitler was not on about the Holy Ghost at all and nor were all the other people you just mentioned above, all of them were worldly in their ambition.

The RCC calls it's self a Church of Saints and sinners, maybe if they kicked out the sinners all would be ok, but they will not kick out the sinners.

Everyone is a sinner.

[kensington]

Kicked out the sinners    Really  

Everyone is a sinner.   Seriously 

I think the intent of the comment is clear.  He meant those who dwell in sin in the church.  The corrupt, evil men who lied and stole from the people in the church.  Those who controlled and dominated the people in the church.

Come on, is the intent really that cloudy?  Not to me. 

The RCC has a history of corrupt and morally bankrupt Popes, Priests, and Bishops...  Had they thrown them out.  The Catholic church could be different.  Think, people, think. 

[His Kid]

I think the intent of the comment is clear.  He meant those who dwell in sin in the church.  The corrupt, evil men who lied and stole from the people in the church.  Those who controlled and dominated the people in the church.

Come on, is the intent really that cloudy?  Not to me. 

The RCC has a history of corrupt and morally bankrupt Popes, Priests, and Bishops...  Had they thrown them out.  The Catholic church could be different.  Think, people, think.

The RCC had no reason or motivation to excommunicate morally bankrupt people because the Vatican itself is morally bankrupt.