After 20yrs....

[Covkeeper34]

Hi, I'm Covkeeper34. Yes, I am an ex-Christian. I was one for almost 20yrs. I do love Christians still because I was one but the Christian religion, I had to depart from it. Yes, the Son of David is still Lord. Yes, the Bible is the Truth. But being and avid reader of my Bible since I was 10yrs old, I know that  "Westernized Christianity" isn't the same as what we read in the Bible.

I'd like to have a friendly talk with only strong Christians who know their Bibles well because I know mine very well and in my experience, talking to Christians who do not know theirs well is like an adult trying to have an adult conversation with an immature kid who thinks they know it all in their limited experience.

I'd like to speak with only teachable and humble disciples who know and acknowledge that they do not have all the pieces to the puzzle as I acknowledge the same. I am teachable and not above correction but I ask that you do keep in mind that I know my Bible very well. You will see that I am able to explain my reasonings on the level that even a child can understand.

So please, will you come chat with me about some things?

[chosenone]

So Jesus is Lord and you believe the Bible, yet you say you are an ex Christian. I cant see how those 2 things can marry.
What you think of Christianity now compared to the early days is irrelevant surely to your own faith and belief.

Speaking for myself I am a Christian and proud to be one, and I love the church and I love my many Christian friends and brothers and sisters who are doing their best in a world that is slowly going down hill to follow the Lord and saviour. WE are all fallible and weak human beings, so no church assembly will ever be perfect, but God loves us anyway. God loves his church, His body on earth, and Jesus is coming back for his bride, the community of believers, His church.
So with respect, whatever you may think of the church today isnt really relevant, its what God says and thinks that matters.

Also with respect, anyone is allowed to comment here, and how well we do or dont know our Bible means nothing if we dont know the Word of God Himself, Jesus. 

[doorknocker]

Welcome to this site.

[Rella]

Hi, I'm Covkeeper34. Yes, I am an ex-Christian. I was one for almost 20yrs. I do love Christians still because I was one but the Christian religion, I had to depart from it. Yes, the Son of David is still Lord. Yes, the Bible is the Truth. But being and avid reader of my Bible since I was 10yrs old, I know that  "Westernized Christianity" isn't the same as what we read in the Bible.

I'd like to have a friendly talk with only strong Christians who know their Bibles well because I know mine very well and in my experience, talking to Christians who do not know theirs well is like an adult trying to have an adult conversation with an immature kid who thinks they know it all in their limited experience.

I'd like to speak with only teachable and humble disciples who know and acknowledge that they do not have all the pieces to the puzzle as I acknowledge the same. I am teachable and not above correction but I ask that you do keep in mind that I know my Bible very well. You will see that I am able to explain my reasonings on the level that even a child can understand.

So please, will you come chat with me about some things?

As an ex-Christian, does this mean that you no longer accept Jesus as your  "Savior?"

You do not need to belong to or have any part of any "organized" Christian religion to still be a Christian so you do need to answer the question before we continue.

Also, what things would you like to chat about?

[JERRY C]

 

so, are you, CK34, a guru, a gnostic, a genius, or a goofball?!

the first thing that jumps out to me is your denial of being a "Christian".

maybe you do not like the baggage associated with this word, in your mind, but ...

I do not claim to be a perfect-puzzle-purist, but, I am a "disciple"  (is that word OK, to you?)

looking forward to seeing your input here, on GCCF.

but, I do not care to get into a PM chat.

[Texas Conservative]

Usually, these kinds of posters are some kind of self realized high prophet or some other type of nonsense.

[Covkeeper34]

Thank you global moderator for coming.

Let me say this, please, and I will explain...

I can tell you that you do not have to be a Christian to follow the Messiah. As a former "American Christian", the propaganda of Christianity in America is that you can't be a Follower of Christ unless you do become one--as westernized Christianity defines it. In my study, being a Follower of Christ according to biblical standards, is not synonymous with contemporary Christianity's doctrines. It's not just the beliefs of select Christian denominations, it is the form of Faith believed by most Believers that is in contradiction to what appears to me as 'plainly written'. I am no longer Christian by definition according to the LIFESTYLE in observation to contemporary Christianity. I see that the lifestyle of Christ as written and historically,  is not what is being practiced or taught in Christianity itself nationwide. I will go further into this as the discussion progresses.

I am a Follower of Him and I see that what He instructed the Disciples in, is nothing like the disciples in Christianity today. I'm aligning myself with the form of Faith of Christ and His Disciples. And what I'm pursuing cannot be called Christianity seeing as it stands opposite of what Christianity  teaches as Truth.

How I think about the Church today does in fact matter. It should matter to you as well because you and I should always be in observance of the structural security of the "Building". It's in need of constant maintenance but one must first be mindful and constantly measuring him/herself to see if they are that living form on a personal level. And they will know if they are rightly measuring themselves by the WHOLE Word. is it aligning with the foundation or not; and is resting on a solid foundation? Is this Church the image the Scriptures prescribe it to look like? If Christianity today doesn't appear as the model apparent in Scripture, then Christianity is another building made with a different cornerstone.

For the sake of this discussion, it matters how well you know your Word. If you know little, remain a spectator. If you know much, you can engage me because it let's me know I can speak concerning the Word and you'll have complete familiarity of my references without my having to constantly post Scripture and verse unnecessarily.

And if you have little understanding of the written Word, how much more your understanding of the Living Word--who has revealed Himself through the written?

[Covkeeper34]

Relia,

If you read the opening post again, I do acknowledge Christ as Saviour still.

[Layceers]

Welcome Covkeeper34.    I am somewhat knowledgeable about scripture, but always still learning and growing.    However, I know that there are alot of scriptures that vary on interpretation according to the person reading them (however correct or incorrect their interpretations are.)    OSAS and pre-trib, post-trib rapture are just a few.   Saying that, I look forward to hearing about your beliefs and what you think the correct interpretations are.

Sallie   

[chosenone]

Thank you global moderator for coming.

Let me say this, please, and I will explain...

I can tell you that you do not have to be a Christian to follow the Messiah. As a former "American Christian", the propaganda of Christianity in America is that you can't be a Follower of Christ unless you do become one--as westernized Christianity defines it. In my study, being a Follower of Christ according to biblical standards, is not synonymous with contemporary Christianity's doctrines. It's not just the beliefs of select Christian denominations, it is the form of Faith believed by most Believers that is in contradiction to what appears to me as 'plainly written'. I am no longer Christian by definition according to the LIFESTYLE in observation to contemporary Christianity. I see that the lifestyle of Christ as written and historically,  is not what is being practiced or taught in Christianity itself nationwide. I will go further into this as the discussion progresses.

I am a Follower of Him and I see that what He instructed the Disciples in, is nothing like the disciples in Christianity today. I'm aligning myself with the form of Faith of Christ and His Disciples. And what I'm pursuing cannot be called Christianity seeing as it stands opposite of what Christianity  teaches as Truth.

How I think about the Church today does in fact matter. It should matter to you as well because you and I should always be in observance of the structural security of the "Building". It's in need of constant maintenance but one must first be mindful and constantly measuring him/herself to see if they are that living form on a personal level. And they will know if they are rightly measuring themselves by the WHOLE Word. is it aligning with the foundation or not; and is resting on a solid foundation? Is this Church the image the Scriptures prescribe it to look like? If Christianity today doesn't appear as the model apparent in Scripture, then Christianity is another building made with a different cornerstone.

For the sake of this discussion, it matters how well you know your Word. If you know little, remain a spectator. If you know much, you can engage me because it let's me know I can speak concerning the Word and you'll have complete familiarity of my references without my having to constantly post Scripture and verse unnecessarily.

And if you have little understanding of the written Word, how much more your understanding of the Living Word--who has revealed Himself through the written?

You said. ' in my experience, talking to Christians who do not know theirs well is like an adult trying to have an adult conversation with an immature kid who thinks they know it all in their limited experience'

Can you not see how demeaning and offensive and arrogant that is? 

The word Christian is merely a word used to identify those of us who have been adopted into Gods family as His children and who follow Him as his disciples, no more and no less. It helps identify us to others in the world, that we are His followers. I am proud to be identified as a CHRISTian, having Christ in the name. However thats not good enough for you, and you don't care to be identified as part of the body of Christ with your spiritual brothers and sisters.   

What comes across to me here, is that you appear to see yourself as somehow 'higher' and more 'spiritual' and more 'knowledgeable' than the rest of us in the body of Christ today. As being 'superior'. You will probably seek to try and get us to agree with you presumably, though your 'great knowledge of the Bible'. As if you have had some sort of 'greater revelation' than us mere mortals. Just a heads up though, we have had many here before who have stopped meeting with other believers and stopped being part of the body of Christ(we are told we must do this remember) and who have gone WAY off track and who claim similar 'revelations'.
 
I dont see what you see in the church today AT ALL, I see Gods loved and adopted children, loving Him, worshipping him, following Him and walking with Him. Of course we are not perfect,  no one is, no church is, but God loves us and uses us anyway to reach out to others.  The world is very different from then, we Christians today face and deal with many different things as well as similar things to back then. God knows this and He equips each of us to do what He wants us to do in the time we live in. 

As for you only wanting to discuss with those who have a similar 'great knowledge of the bible', anyone can give their thoughts and opinions and ideas and beliefs here, no matter if they are new believers or mature ones, if they have just started reading the Bible or have been reading it for many years. Its not really up to you to decide who can make a point, who can talk about what the Bible says, and who can agree or disagree with you.   

[chosenone]

Welcome Covkeeper34.    I am somewhat knowledgeable about scripture, but always still learning and growing.    However, I know that there are alot of scriptures that vary on interpretation according to the person reading them (however correct or incorrect their interpretations are.)    OSAS and pre-trib, post-trib rapture are just a few.   Saying that, I look forward to hearing about your beliefs and what you think the correct interpretations are.

Sallie   

yes this is a good point, and even if we do disagree about many things, as long as they are not salvation issues it doesnt really matter too much in the end.

[Covkeeper34]

Layceers,

You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear that there actually are Christians who know their Bible well, that's a rare thing in that Religion as far as the average layman.

If we dialogue, I know I will upset some of your doctrinal beliefs. Please refrain from the empty insults such as calling me a heretic, a devil, deceived,...etc. I'm quite used to the slander but rest assured, I'm able to back up all I say using Scripture's rules for determining Truth.

As far as interpretations, I'll be reading from the KJV primarily. What I will show you will be plain English and neither of us will be able to excuse what's plainly written. Scripture interprets itself and I will also show how and why there are sadly 20-40,000 different Christian denominations in the world that can't agree on what Paul taught.

I look forward to our discussion.

[chosenone]

Layceers,

You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear that there actually are Christians who know their Bible well, that's a rare thing in that Religion as far as the average layman.

If we dialogue, I know I will upset some of your doctrinal beliefs. Please refrain from the empty insults such as calling me a heretic, a devil, deceived,...etc. I'm quite used to the slander but rest assured, I'm able to back up all I say using Scripture's rules for determining Truth.

As far as interpretations, I'll be reading from the KJV primarily. What I will show you will be plain English and neither of us will be able to excuse what's plainly written. Scripture interprets itself and I will also show how and why there are sadly 20-40,000 different Christian denominations in the world that can't agree on what Paul taught.

I look forward to our discussion.

Again, I dont see what you do. I know countless believers who read their bibles a lot and who know them very well. The thing is covenant keeper, you think you are right(as stated when you said that you will 'show us' and that we will not be able to 'excuse what is plainly written', in other words we will all then agree with your take on what is said). Can you not see how arrogant that is?
Everyone else's beliefs and views and opinions are as valid as yours, as remember that you dont have anywhere near all the answers, none of us do.   

If you want an excellent godly, anointed, very intelligent and knowledgeable Bible teacher to learn from, who spoke both greek and hebrew as well as English, listen to Derek Prince. See if your beliefs line up with his.   

[doorknocker]

Layceers,

You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear that there actually are Christians who know their Bible well, that's a rare thing in that Religion as far as the average layman.

If we dialogue, I know I will upset some of your doctrinal beliefs. Please refrain from the empty insults such as calling me a heretic, a devil, deceived,...etc. I'm quite used to the slander but rest assured, I'm able to back up all I say using Scripture's rules for determining Truth.

As far as interpretations, I'll be reading from the KJV primarily. What I will show you will be plain English and neither of us will be able to excuse what's plainly written. Scripture interprets itself and I will also show how and why there are sadly 20-40,000 different Christian denominations in the world that can't agree on what Paul taught.

I look forward to our discussion.

Again, I dont see what you do. I know countless believers who read their bibles a lot and who know them very well. The thing is covenant keeper, you think you are right(as stated when you said that you will 'show us' and that we will not be able to 'excuse what is plainly written', in other words we will all then agree with your take on what is said). Can you not see how arrogant that is?
Everyone else's beliefs and views and opinions are as valid as yours, as remember that you dont have anywhere near all the answers, none of us do.

So far I have not seen anything arrogant or what I don't agree with.

Maybe he has truth, maybe not.

Let him state his beliefs and if they are contrary to scriptures, then prove

his beliefs wrong with scriptures.

Until then let us not resort to personal character classification.

By the way if you read Paul's writings, he comes across as arrogant,  but of

course he was the great apostle Paul.



I am waiting to see the follows biblical understanding and go from there.

[chosenone]

Layceers,

You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear that there actually are Christians who know their Bible well, that's a rare thing in that Religion as far as the average layman.

If we dialogue, I know I will upset some of your doctrinal beliefs. Please refrain from the empty insults such as calling me a heretic, a devil, deceived,...etc. I'm quite used to the slander but rest assured, I'm able to back up all I say using Scripture's rules for determining Truth.

As far as interpretations, I'll be reading from the KJV primarily. What I will show you will be plain English and neither of us will be able to excuse what's plainly written. Scripture interprets itself and I will also show how and why there are sadly 20-40,000 different Christian denominations in the world that can't agree on what Paul taught.

I look forward to our discussion.

Again, I dont see what you do. I know countless believers who read their bibles a lot and who know them very well. The thing is covenant keeper, you think you are right(as stated when you said that you will 'show us' and that we will not be able to 'excuse what is plainly written', in other words we will all then agree with your take on what is said). Can you not see how arrogant that is?
Everyone else's beliefs and views and opinions are as valid as yours, as remember that you dont have anywhere near all the answers, none of us do.

So far I have not seen anything arrogant or what I don't agree with.

Maybe he has truth, maybe not.

Let him state his beliefs and if they are contrary to scriptures, then prove

his beliefs wrong with scriptures.

Until then let us not resort to personal character classification.

By the way if you read Paul's writings, he comes across as arrogant,  but of

course he was the great apostle Paul.



I am waiting to see the follows biblical understanding and go from there.

I must see things that you dont. Maybe its because I have been here a long time and have seen so many like this before.
If it goes the same way as the others before him, then no matter what he is shown or how many tell him he is wrong, it will change nothing.

[chosenone]

Covkeeper, how about you state your case and then leave it to people here to reply and challenge or not. In my experience. some new believers have far more wisdom than mature ones. It may do you good to hear all views and beliefs.

[Covkeeper34]

Chosenone,

You say I sound arrogant. I get that a lot and I never grow weary of correcting that. There is a difference between being CONFIDENT and ARROGANT. One is aware of his limitations and the other is not. After nearly 20yrs of intentional reading and study, shouldn't one have enough confidence in their understanding of Scripture? If you've been a student as long as I have and yet lack confidence in your understanding, this discussion may be above you. I need confident, knowledgeable Christians to talk with.

Also, let's try and refrain from trying to figure me out as a person. Don't say, I don't care to be identified with the Body if I never said that. Please refrain from the slander and false accusations. Have patience, we're going to see clearly who Scripture determines to be my Spiritual brothers and Sisters and I will show you plainly why Christianity as you know it does not fit the description.

Sadly, you spent a whole paragraph giving commentary on me and how you see me. We haven't even begun talking about anything, yet lol. Please refrain from being quick to judge before hearing a matter. Try to exercise a Spirit of discernment if you truly have that Spirit in you.

What's also sad is, I run into alot of moderators who think if they've seen one kind of opposition to Christianity, they've seen it all. I'm sorry for your bad encounters but you're going to find out quickly that I'm nothing like what you've encountered before. Like I said I was a Christian for 20yrs but I didn't say that, not only is that so but, I was very "devout" in Christian terms. The bones I pick are substantial and I will say things about Christian beliefs that even you can't deny is being taught.

It kinda is up to me to decide who I will dialogue with on my Post especially if I've politely asked for a certain kind of engagement ahead of time. There's been at least one person who's responded so far that appears immature, I ignore them completely. I will ignore any Christian who portrays themselves as immature in the Faith and I think that is not only fair but a proper response. So no, I can't stop anyone from replying but I can control who I will respond to.

After 20yrs in, I'm like a General in the Christian world. If I salute you respectfully and you might be younger in the Faith than me, please return that gesture to me.

[Covkeeper34]

Let's talk about Water baptism and how Christians define it. Then, I'll show how inconsistent their definition is with how Scripture defines it as.

Who will give a simple definition?

[Layceers]

Baptism is a public testimony that we have given up our old life and are publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and are entering our new life with Him.   

[Covkeeper34]

Layceers,

That definitely is the Christian definition. But let me ask you this:

When John the Baptist was baptizing people, do you think those people got baptized for the same reason as you? Keep in mind that it is noted that those being baptized there were a people being prepared for the LORD. What say you?

[chosenone]

"Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone, everywhere. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1. It means we have turned from the old life of sin to a new life in Jesus Christ.
2. It means we are publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
3. It means we are openly joining the ranks of those who believe in Christ.

[grams]

We at our church do not believe in water baptizing .....

We have it all upon belief !

Do you understand all the pain and agony that Christ suffered for us ?

How He has made things in this time so much easier for us then in the
past  ?   

When you first became a Christen ,  did you believe  in all that you read ?

[Texas Conservative]

We at our church do not believe in water baptizing .....

We have it all upon belief !

Do you understand all the pain and agony that Christ suffered for us ?

How He has made things in this time so much easier for us then in the
past  ?   

When you first became a Christen ,  did you believe  in all that you read ?

Your church is wrong.  Your Pastor is wrong.

[chosenone]

We at our church do not believe in water baptizing .....

We have it all upon belief !

Do you understand all the pain and agony that Christ suffered for us ?

How He has made things in this time so much easier for us then in the
past  ?   

When you first became a Christen ,  did you believe  in all that you read ?

We are told to be baptised.

[Covkeeper34]

Chosenone,

Look at some of the replies after I asked one simple question. You have Christians who don't believe in water baptism even though it's PLAINLY WRITTEN. This is one of the sad parts about Christianity:

The Biblical illiteracy in Christianity is of biblical proportions.

But of your list of 1 to 3, it's your #1 answer that we'll focus on. Tell me, what does your Bible define as "Sin"?

[RB]

When John the Baptist was baptizing people, do you think those people got baptized for the same reason as you? Keep in mind that it is noted that those being baptized there were a people being prepared for the LORD. What say you?

It really matters little what we think, or say, but what saith the word of God? John's baptism truly was a baptism of repentance, without confessing the religion of Jesus Christ, only that John exhorted them to believe on the coming Messiah, and his kingdom. The difference between the two are: post Christ's coming and exaltation to David's throne, people are now baptized into the religion, or faith of Jesus Christ , and in his name, with a promise attach to water baptism of receiving the knowledge of the indwelling Spirit;  whereas, John's baptism, even though for the right reasons, (bringing forth fruits meet for repentance, or worthy of) yet with different emphasis and promises, and with more knowledge.  Therefore, post Christ's life, death and resurrection, those who are baptized with a good conscience before God, enjoy a salvation (practical~Mark 16:16) that all saints prior to Christ's coming did not have, or could have. I remain a Christian under the revelation of the New Covenant sealed and ratified by the blood of the Lamb of God, who alone is worthy to take the books and open the seals thereof, of God's hidden mysteries.   

[Covkeeper34]

RB,

One thing you said sticks out to me. You said, 'it doesn't matter what we think but what saith the Word of God'.

Now, I just read your whole post. You say the  water baptismal ministry of Christ and of John Baptist are two different water baptisms. Is this correct?

One of the deceptions in Christianity is, if you aren't careful, you're liable to believe whatever sounds good. But put what you hear under a microscope. So, here's my challenge to you:

Can you produce two or three Scriptural/verse references that plainly say these are two different water baptisms WITHOUT superimposing onto the Word what actually isn't there?

But keep in mind that it is very plain to see that the water baptism of John's ministry was handed directly to Christ as he began to decrease. Christ then hands that SAME ministry to His Disciples. The only way you can believe those are two different water baptisms, is if your religion's doctrines make you believe they are.

Does your form of Christianity really teach that Christ wasn't baptised into John's baptism and it's purpose even though it's plainly witnessed that He was?

[MeMyself]

There's been at least one person who's responded so far that appears immature, I ignore them completely. I will ignore any Christian who portrays themselves as immature in the Faith and I think that is not only fair but a proper response.

Seems to me that a mature person would simply ignore and not make mention of  shunning who they judge as the "immature" one. 

[RB]

Now, I just read your whole post. You say the  water baptismal ministry of Christ and of John Baptist are two different water baptisms. Is this correct?

Sir, can you not read what I said and from there approve or disprove? I said these words:

John's baptism truly was a baptism of repentance

The very same as all under the NT, post Christ.

are two different water baptisms

I did not say they are different, as far as their purposes served.

One of the deceptions in Christianity is, if you aren't careful, you're liable to believe whatever sounds good

Sir, you need to learn how to first define Christianity, per the word of God. It is true that you're liable to believe whatever sounds good, or what you desire to believe, regardless what the word of God teaches. The very elect cannot be totally and finally deceive, so your position toward Christianity, needs to be reworded to say "professors" of Jesus Christ. True Christianity/the very elect are the only worshipers who cannot be deceived in following another spirit, or Antichrist spirits.

But put what you hear under a microscope.

Christians test all spirits not under a microscope of one's standard of truth, but by the word of God. (1st John 4:1)

Can you produce two or three Scriptural/verse references that plainly say these are two different water baptisms WITHOUT superimposing onto the Word what actually isn't there?

Sir, I said this:

John's baptism truly was a baptism of repentance, without confessing the religion of Jesus Christ, only that John exhorted them to believe on the coming Messiah, and his kingdom. The difference between the two are: post Christ's coming and exaltation to David's throne, people are now baptized into the religion, or faith of Jesus Christ , and in his name, with a promise attach to water baptism of receiving the knowledge of the indwelling Spirit;  whereas, John's baptism, even though for the right reasons, (bringing forth fruits meet for repentance, or worthy of) yet with different emphasis and promises, and with more knowledge.

A classic scriptural reference to what I'am saying is found here:

Acts 19:1-6...Reads~"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

A few things to ponder: They were baptized for the proper reason~"John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance"~Yet, after the death and resurrection of Christ, John's baptism was no longer valid, for his baptism served only until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. These men were baptized after Jesus' death without being instructed properly of the promises of the New Covenant promises of the indwelling Spirit empowering them and guiding them into all truth~serving the body of Christ until Jesus comes again to receive them unto himself. Baptism in water has a more powerful, and enlighten meaning after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, than it did during John's ministry. 

Christ then hands that SAME ministry to His Disciples.

Really, then I think you need to give your understanding on why Paul commanded to re-baptized twelve disciples at Ephesus. There was a biblical reason why he did so. It had to do with them receiving the knowledge of the indwelling Spirit, and using that power available to them under the religion of the Son of God. Which was greater than what John the Baptist lived under.

Does your form of Christianity really teach that Christ wasn't baptised into John's baptism and it's purpose even though it's plainly witnessed that He was?

This is not what we are discussing. Jesus was indeed baptized by John to fulfilled all righteousness. Every child of God post Christ's death and resurrection are baptized for the very same reason as to why Jesus was baptized! Selah.  It's your turn to talk and let me listen and test what you have to say.

[chosenone]

Chosenone,

Look at some of the replies after I asked one simple question. You have Christians who don't believe in water baptism even though it's PLAINLY WRITTEN. This is one of the sad parts about Christianity:

The Biblical illiteracy in Christianity is of biblical proportions.

But of your list of 1 to 3, it's your #1 answer that we'll focus on. Tell me, what does your Bible define as "Sin"?

To be honest I dont know any Christians who dont believe in baptism of one sort or another. Sorry I though we were talking about baptism?

[chosenone]

There's been at least one person who's responded so far that appears immature, I ignore them completely. I will ignore any Christian who portrays themselves as immature in the Faith and I think that is not only fair but a proper response.

Seems to me that a mature person would simply ignore and not make mention of  shunning who they judge as the "immature" one. 

Amen, its very rude isnt it.

[Covkeeper34]

Will address replies shortly, gotta punch that clock.

[Layceers]

Acts  19:14  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Matthew  3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John 1-17   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  2 The same was in the beginning with God.  3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.  7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.  8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.  10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.  11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:  13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.  16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.  17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

They are two different baptism in that John was baptizing into repentance and to bear witness to the light.     Christ came and was baptizing with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

These verses (John 1-4...  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  2 The same was in the beginning with God.  3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.) also say that although the light was here from the beginning, we were unable to "comprehend" it and Christs baptism opened our eyes to the truth of the light.

What say you?

Sallie   

[Rella]

"Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone, everywhere. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1. It means we have turned from the old life of sin to a new life in Jesus Christ.
2. It means we are publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
3. It means we are openly joining the ranks of those who believe in Christ.

SIGH...

Mark 16, from where you got the above quote states... (KJV)... as part of the telling of what transpired on Resurrection day when Jesus appeared to the 11

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

THERE IS NO MENTION OF A WATER BAPTISM HERE.

Chosenone, In the verses you are quoting, Jesus is talking to the 11 disciples. They have been told of the things those who accept Jesus and are baptized will do.

I submit He was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not water.

Mathew tells us that John....

Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The following solidifies that idea for me..

Romans 8:9-11 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. [b]Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/b]

In other words.... If you have not the Holy Spirit you really are not saved because only His are saved and I submit that in the versus referenced above that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus was talking about.

Repentance of sin is important. There were water baptisms before Jesus for repentance. These people who had pre-Jesus baptisms were not saved. They may have been cleansed and as such had better lives for that but they were not saved. That did not happen until after Jesus' ministry.

If water baptism was what Jesus meant , out of necessity, he would have told the disciples to go and preach and make believers and then those who had been baptised for repentence before Jesus would need to do it again, and those who never had been baptised needed to do it now.  IN WATER

The necessity would have been that realizing that even the very diciples of Jesus had not truly believed as they were living it, He would have had to make it crystal clear to them that the water baptism was part of the
salvation thing cause the deciples would not have been smart enough, obviously, to understand that...

But since Jesus did not make that undeniably understood to them...

IT HAD TO BE THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPRIT that the disciples were going to get themselves.

BUT HE NEVER SAID THAT....

He said " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"

That has to be different then a water baptism.

[chosenone]

"Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone, everywhere. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1. It means we have turned from the old life of sin to a new life in Jesus Christ.
2. It means we are publicly identifying with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
3. It means we are openly joining the ranks of those who believe in Christ.

SIGH...

Mark 16, from where you got the above quote states... (KJV)... as part of the telling of what transpired on Resurrection day when Jesus appeared to the 11

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

THERE IS NO MENTION OF A WATER BAPTISM HERE.

Chosenone, In the verses you are quoting, Jesus is talking to the 11 disciples. They have been told of the things those who accept Jesus and are baptized will do.

I submit He was referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Not water.

Mathew tells us that John....

Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The following solidifies that idea for me..

Romans 8:9-11 - But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. [b]Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/b]

In other words.... If you have not the Holy Spirit you really are not saved because only His are saved and I submit that in the versus referenced above that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is what Jesus was talking about.

Repentance of sin is important. There were water baptisms before Jesus for repentance. These people who had pre-Jesus baptisms were not saved. They may have been cleansed and as such had better lives for that but they were not saved. That did not happen until after Jesus' ministry.

If water baptism was what Jesus meant , out of necessity, he would have told the disciples to go and preach and make believers and then those who had been baptised for repentence before Jesus would need to do it again, and those who never had been baptised needed to do it now.  IN WATER

The necessity would have been that realizing that even the very diciples of Jesus had not truly believed as they were living it, He would have had to make it crystal clear to them that the water baptism was part of the
salvation thing cause the deciples would not have been smart enough, obviously, to understand that...

But since Jesus did not make that undeniably understood to them...

IT HAD TO BE THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPRIT that the disciples were going to get themselves.

BUT HE NEVER SAID THAT....

He said " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"

That has to be different then a water baptism.

Matthew 28:18-20
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

acts 8 v 38
And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

Just one example of them doing what Jesus had instructed.