After 20yrs....

[notreligus]

Covkeeper34:   Are you associated with the House of Yahweh?

[Covkeeper34]

Covkeeper34:   Are you associated with the House of Yahweh?

No

[Covkeeper34]

Layceers,

Water baptism is a baptism of repentance according to John's baptism. I concur.

We baptise in Christ's name as commanded. It's an outward expression that you are turning from Lawlessness to Lawfulness. It's identifying yourself with the Covenant of God.

Which Covenant?   

Who is the Mediator?

The RENEWED Covenant.

Christ as He's always been.

[MeMyself]

So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

Yes, I have. I know, the Christian religion says that's gong into bondage according to their miseducation of Rav Shaul.

Know what's funny about that? If Rav Shaul really taught that and Timothy was his disciple, doesn't it make you wonder why he never stopped Timothy from being circumcised?**gasp**

Think about that very carefully and critically.

Remember Shaul is Jewish and Timothy half Jewish. So, put two and two together.

Because he was taking Timothy to the Jews.  They knew Tim was only a half brother, so they were inclined to disregard him. Paul had him circumcised to remove any complain or criticism against Tim.  The point was that the gospel of grace be furthered and no stumbling block get in the way of that.  The Jews would have been so wrapped up in law, they would have dismissed Tim for not being circumcised.

So, if getting circumcised leads back into bondage, as Christianity teaches,

It doesn't.  Never been taught that, never even had it implied...so...

did Timothy go back into bondage? If so, Shaul contradicts his own teachings and leads Timothy back into bondage regardless of the reason, right?

Or should we go with a more biblical answer that Timothy got circumcised according to the commandment like Rav Shaul did and getting circumcised helped him gain entrance to the Jews?

He got circumcised so that the religious law keepers would not be offended.  He got circumcised so as not to cause them to stumble.  He got circumcised to be all things to all people.  It was ALWAYS about doing what must be done to further the gospel of the grace of Christ Jesus.

[chosenone]

So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

Yes, I have. I know, the Christian religion says that's gong into bondage according to their miseducation of Rav Shaul.

Know what's funny about that? If Rav Shaul really taught that and Timothy was his disciple, doesn't it make you wonder why he never stopped Timothy from being circumcised?**gasp**

Think about that very carefully and critically.

Remember Shaul is Jewish and Timothy half Jewish. So, put two and two together.

Paul was scathing and angry in his denounciation of those who were telling the gentiles to be circumcised. Stating that they may as well go the whole way now and have it all cut off.  No mistaking his meaning at all.

[chosenone]

So CK, do you think that you must keep all the old levitical laws, so that, for example you dont wear clothes of mixed fabrics?

There's no Temple for Levites to perform at, ceremonial Laws as far as Temple is concerned is obsolete.

OK, so already you are finding laws that you dont keep to. How about the mixed fabrics thing?

Still learning about that particular law. I do however wear tzit tzits as commanded.

  Commanded for Jews.    Have you been circumcised?

Yes, I have. I know, the Christian religion says that's gong into bondage according to their miseducation of Rav Shaul.

Know what's funny about that? If Rav Shaul really taught that and Timothy was his disciple, doesn't it make you wonder why he never stopped Timothy from being circumcised?**gasp**

Think about that very carefully and critically.

Remember Shaul is Jewish and Timothy half Jewish. So, put two and two together.

Because he was taking Timothy to the Jews.  They knew Tim was only a half brother, so they were inclined to disregard him. Paul had him circumcised to remove any complain or criticism against Tim.  The point was that the gospel of grace be furthered and no stumbling block get in the way of that.  The Jews would have been so wrapped up in law, they would have dismissed Tim for not being circumcised.

So, if getting circumcised leads back into bondage, as Christianity teaches, did Timothy go back into bondage? If so, Shaul contradicts his own teachings and leads Timothy back into bondage regardless of the reason, right?

Or should we go with a more biblical answer that Timothy got circumcised according to the commandment like Rav Shaul did and getting circumcised helped him gain entrance to the Jews?

memyself has already explained why Timothy got circumcised. Its not for gentiles at all.

[Johnb]

Person number 10,986 that has come to the board believing they have the only correct way of understanding the bible and the rest of us dummies need to listen so we can be converted to  "the truth". This thread reminds me of the internet commercials that promise a near miracle revelation but after 20 minutes of commercial they have made promise after promise and the conclusion is well just silly .  Pardon my brief interruption now I will go back to the only thing that saves the blood of Jesus .  PS we already have a board for Messianic Christians.   

[RB]

1) common sense 2) good reasoning And 3) reality Theses are my choice weapons.

Well, common sense is not too common anymore. Good reasoning is only good if its has for its foundation the word of God, specially debating truth. Reality? If I understand its definiton properly to mean: "the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic"; then we must used the word of God, and reject vain man's ideals concerning his understanding of the given subject at hand. I want to come back and deal with your understanding of the law of God, and our relationship to the law, based upon Paul's teachings. My only source will be the word of God, period. I will not trust on my common sense, sound reasoning, unless it comes directly from the mouth of God. It seems like to me that you have been bewitched by false prophets, and I shall use the word of God to prove that very thing. I am not so sure that you do not live in Piedmont, S.C.~but if you do not, then I know a person who was a Christian for twenty years and then jumped ship to embraced a form of Judaism, thereby embracing the OT over the NT~ I see why you say that you were a Christian, but no longer. You may think that you understand Christianity as taught by the NT, but I can assure you that you do not.  I have some meetings early this morning but will address some points that you have so far mentioned. You have said not one word that can not be answered with NT scriptures. I have debated men like you before, and they generally have no answers, no support their false theories, even though they keep barking as though they do. 

[RB]

The RENEWED Covenant.

There's no such doctrine as a Renewed Covenant~there is a first, and there is a second; there is a old, and there is a new. You care to explain exactly what you consider the Renewed Covenant?

Christ as He's always been.

By that statement you mean what? Jesus as the Son of God, was born around two thousand years ago to a young virgin named Mary~ until that time, there was no Jesus Christ, as we know him. Now, that being said, in his Divine Nature he was the I am That I am, the beginning and end of all things, the Everlasting Father of all things~eternal both ways. The Word that was in the beginning joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God, and walked among men; was seen of angels for the first time; lived and died for the sins of his people; was resurrected by the power of God; and is now seated at God's right hand of power, waiting til his enemies be made his footstool.   

[k-pappy]

I am moving this thread to the non-traditional theology board.

[chosenone]

I am moving this thread to the non-traditional theology board.

Yes good call.

[chosenone]

Long passage from the Bible, but says it all in reference to this thread.

Acts 15
15 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.[a] 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 "'After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
     and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
    and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
     says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.'
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23 with the following letter: "The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers[c] who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you[d] with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell." 


Wanted to repeat the last part.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

[RB]

Water Baptism: pay attention to what's happening at the water. Here we see John Baptist ministering repentance. What are these Hebrews repenting for according to the Bible? Any thoughts?

Sir, John did not ministered repentance. Couple of reasons I say this: first, true repentance is a gift granted, that comes with the free gift of eternal life, and being made a new creature in Jesus Christ. Now, that does not mean, that we do not live in a state of constantly asking forgiveness and repenting of certain acts of wickedness; and sometimes just down right foolishness. But the gift to repent, and the power to do so, is a gift granted by grace, on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

2nd Timothy 2:25...Reads~"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;"

John the Baptist, ministered water baptism, preaching repentance. But, only those given faith, are the only ones that can and will repent!

What are these Hebrews repenting for according to the Bible?

Let the scriptures answer this question, not me:

Luke 3:8-11....Reads~"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise."

You asked a question, and the scriptures answered it for you.

Sin is defined in the Bible as offenses against the Law. No amount of Christian theology can cover that up.

Sir, Christians teach that truth more than other religious sect in this world.

Repentance is ALWAYS a return to the Law. ]

Not so fast sir, not so fast. No, true repentance is a return to God~ It is taking sides with God against SELF. Repentant is beautifully described for us by Paul:

2nd Corinthians 7:9-11.....Reads~ "Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter."

Godly repentance, which is an ongoing process of sanctification~ works salvation (in a practical sense) for those who practice biblical godly repentance, with a sorrowful spirit of offending the God of heaven~based upon His overall revelation of his will for us as his children.

Christianity would have you redefine it.

That's a lie. Followers of Jesus Christ loves and delights in his commandments, and his commandments are not limited to ten, or 100, but the whole scriptures. But, could be summed up in Ten, if one truly understood the spirituality of God's commandments, which only Christians DO. Our Lord Jesus has graciously instructed us concerning his Father's commandments, especially from Matthew 5-7 in the sermon on the mount. 

Find the consistency and use both halves of the Bible; not just the second

Oh, but we do! We used both testaments, only we KNOW that the second is more glorious than the first.  Did not Moses teach us this? Yes he did indeed:

2nd Corinthians 3:7-15....Reads~ "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart."

Truth is found IN CHRIST, not in Moses! All of the CHRISTIANS said AMEN. I will finish the rest of your post later.

[notreligus]

Layceers,

Water baptism is a baptism of repentance according to John's baptism. I concur.

We baptise in Christ's name as commanded. It's an outward expression that you are turning from Lawlessness to Lawfulness. It's identifying yourself with the Covenant of God.

Which Covenant?   

Who is the Mediator?

The RENEWED Covenant.

Christ as He's always been.

So, you are promoting covenantal nomism.     

Salvation by faith in Christ was how Jews were and continue to be saved.  Christ is prophesied and pre-figured throughout the Old Testament Scripture (i.e. forward looking), but since His finished work on the cross He became the Mediator, the attorney who stands before the Father and calls believers righteous.   Prior to this rituals and sacrifices were necessary and repeated under the Old Covenant, the old way that God related to mankind.   Under the New Covenant, a Blood Covenant, Christ's shed blood has been presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies as a once-and-for-all atonement for the sin of mankind.   Christ's righteousness has been imputed to the believer - the Great Exchange.  This was God Almighty's choice.   Christ came with a mission, His mission to give up His life on the cross that we all may live.   He did not come to set up an earthly kingdom for the Jews.   Many are proclaiming another Jesus, a false Christ, just as Paul said would happen.

[MeMyself]

Person number 10,986 that has come to the board believing they have the only correct way of understanding the bible and the rest of us dummies need to listen so we can be converted to  "the truth".

Yep.  This path is more a rut than anything else.  But, this poster is SO sure he has a new revelation or understanding. Its all the same...

[mommydi]

Person number 10,986 that has come to the board believing they have the only correct way of understanding the bible and the rest of us dummies need to listen so we can be converted to  "the truth".

Yep.  This path is more a rut than anything else.  But, this poster is SO sure he has a new revelation or understanding. Its all the same...

And at the same time, thoroughly enjoys members playing 20 questions with him.

[Covkeeper34]

I'll answer these new replies later, after work, thx

[Rella]

Yep.  This path is more a rut than anything else.  But, this poster is SO sure he has a new revelation or understanding. Its all the same...

And I, for one, am still waiting for that revelation or explanation into his understanding. 

[Nevertheless]

Again it is written:

1st Timothy 2:14....Reads~"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

It's good to remember that this verse isn't just telling us about Eve, but also about Adam. Eve sinned because she was deceived, but Adam sinned willfully, with his eyes wide open, knowing exactly what he was doing.

Which do you think is worse?

[Nevertheless]

I get kicked off alot of Christian sites. Sometimes only after an opening post. And I'm going to tell you as God as my witness, 100% of the time, only women have a problem, the guys are cool. The women like to throw around the words: "rude", "mean", "insensitive", "arrogant", etc....This is a constant thing.

Well then this site is an exception. It is the male moderators here who are more likely to ban you. Just because they haven't directed many comments to you doesn't mean they aren't watching you.

[RB]

It's good to remember that this verse isn't just telling us about Eve, but also about Adam. Eve sinned because she was deceived, but Adam sinned willfully, with his eyes wide open, knowing exactly what he was doing. Which do you think is worse?

Adam's

[Nevertheless]

It's good to remember that this verse isn't just telling us about Eve, but also about Adam. Eve sinned because she was deceived, but Adam sinned willfully, with his eyes wide open, knowing exactly what he was doing. Which do you think is worse?

Adam's

I agree. I've heard this verse wielded as a weapon by insecure men attempting to "keep the women in their place." Trouble is, they didn't realize they were gripping the blade of a sword and swinging it like a club.

[MeMyself]

I agree. I've heard this verse wielded as a weapon by insecure men attempting to "keep the women in their place." Trouble is, they didn't realize they were gripping the blade of a sword and swinging it like a club.

[RB]

Now, if it's consistent and clear that BIBLICAL repentance is always a return to Law and only bad Christian theology denies that.....

Nice try, but you have yet to proven your point. Now, I would give you a little room, and say this to you: "IF you use the word law in  broad term as it is use many times over in the NT by Paul, then I might give you some credit of having a little truth." An example of what I'm saying would be this: "Law" is used many times by Paul to express a commandment or that which has authority and works as a law. The word "law" occurs 223 times in the New Testament of the King James Version. ... we must use the scriptures overall to determined Paul's sense in which he is using the word law.  In Romans 7:1-8:4 the word "law" is used twenty two times alone, with different senses! So, please4 explain what you mean by the law, then explain what sense you are speaking of. Could it be~the law of the mind of a child of God, laboring to bring himself into subjection to the spiritual, holy and good law of God overall considered? If yes, then no problem~ if no, then prove your point.

only bad Christian theology denies that,

Sir, only Christians have truth. Now that being said, there is indeed much bad and wicked theology in the religion of Mystery Babylon.  Without true believers in Jesus Christ, (or the very elect) the Son of the Living God, there would be no truth left in this world, as it comes to it end. (2 Timothy 3:13; Matthew 24:24)

think about what happened when you got baptised: Notice how when you got baptised, no one told you you were being baptised into the Covenant you never knew(American Christians)? That's because you got baptised into the Christian religion; you didn't get baptised into that Covenant--like you should of.

Sir, you must explain yourself with this strange belief. Christians/believers  world over, and since Pentecost, are baptized into the religion  of Jesus Christ~based upon his gospel and the redemption of being delivered from the curse of the law, and its condemnation through his life/obedience, death and  resurrection. Grace and truth came by HIM, not Moses. In him is LIFE, and the life is the LIGHT of the world, both Jews and Gentiles. He is the True light that shines light into the hearts of his followers~ which you men cannot comprehend, because you are still looking to Moses.

The promises of that Covenant belong to the people of it. Christianity denies that Covenant saying it's done away with.

Sir, the first Covenant is a schoolmaster for God's elect showing and proving to us that we NEED CHRIST. Our hiding place is IN Christ, not in Moses. We do not deny the first Covenant, only we know how to use it lawfully, as a schoolmaster ONLY. 1st Timothy 1:8; Galatians 3:19-24; etc.

Christians, tell me: How are you claiming the promises of a Covenant that you openly refuse?

I claim the promise of the first Covenant through the second Covenant  of pure grace given to the seed of Jesus Christ THROUGH HIS OBEDIENCE~he alone fulfilled what I could NOT do in my flesh, he DID PERFECTLY for me! Jesus Christ fulfilled the first Covenant perfectly, so that I can live through him imparting his perfect righteousness to MY ACCOUNT! Praise be to the Lamb of God!

Explain that on a common sense level.

No man can understand these things UNLESS it be revealed to them by the Father. Matthew 16:17; Matthew 11:27; John 5:21; etc. Common sense? I rather have spiritual enlightenment~which give a person sound common sense. There's a spiritual madness roaming free through out this world, even among professor of the God of heaven.

But before you do, realize that as far as Covenants are concerned, its consistently true that there is not a single Covenant given that negates the previous one. Go look. That consistency only breaks down in the Christian religion but we're exposing that today.

The second Covenant abolished the first, as far as securing eternal life for the seed of Jesus Christ~and in this sense, it is so much better than the one the first Adam was placed under in Eden. For the second Covenant had the Second Adam FROM HEAVEN securing our right to eternal life FOR US!  Let me ask you a question: Since you desire to be under the first covenant of works~do you not hear what it commands, and the curses for not living up to those commandments, in both thoughts and deeds? 

[RB]

I agree. I've heard this verse wielded as a weapon by insecure men attempting to "keep the women in their place." Trouble is, they didn't realize they were gripping the blade of a sword and swinging it like a club.

What are you smiling about? Hey, I kinda understand Adam's predicament that he was in. Every other man in the flesh, (with an exception of Jesus Christ) would have done the very same thing! Men have their weakness, and a beautiful woman that a man is in love with is his greatest source of weakness. That being said. A godly woman is also man's greatest source of strength to help him live godly before God. I have such a woman, for which I am thankful for.  She's corrected me a few times over in almost fifty years of marriage. But, she does it in a most gracious way, that only adds power to what she is correcting me on. 

[MeMyself]

Red, smiling at the word picture that Never painted for us! It was awesome!

[Hello]

About the condemning people who eat bacon comment...

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-5


About the circumcision... Read Galatians. We are under the new covenant, not the old.

It's also pretty presumptuous to say all christians don't know why they're getting baptized or getting baptized into a religion instead of by faith. You don't speak for everyone.

[Covkeeper34]

The Rational Mind Pt. 1

Like I've said before, it's WAY too easy for any of us to put verses together and say: "this is the right interpretation!'. I've been doing this with Christians a long time. So, I'll take a different approach.

I know that there are alot of things said since my last remarks, but I'm going to hold off on that for a second. I'm not ditching at all. I know how to answer the Acts references and Galatians references and all other NT references that come. But I'm going to appeal to the spectators right now.

Whatever Christianity can't explain with common sense and good reasoning,  it'll spiritualize it away as a cover-up.

You should never have to betray your common sense, good reasoning, and reality, in order to follow the historically Jewish Messiah. If Christianity is constantly causing you to do that, it's an indication that you've fallen into a false religious system. And I will show you plainly that's what Christianity as you know it, is

I will now refer to the spectators as:The Rational Mind

Let's see, I have arrows, bullets, and missiles. I'm feeling pretty good right now and confident. Let's use a missile...

Moses said, 'A prophet like myself will arise...'

Rational Mind, this is in reference to none other than Yeshua, yes? Ok, so does the Christian Jesus fit that description to a "T"? Let's see....

Moses had a Law coming from a mountain, true? Then does the Christian Jesus have a Law coming from a mountain? Here's Christianity:

When you convert to that Religion, you are directed to a hill with someone on the cross. There, Christianity proclaims the Law was nailed there and done away with.

WAIT!!! That's not the guy Moses was speaking of if that guy has no Law to obey!**rational mind is thinking, thinking this through** Christianity wants it's converts to ignore this very crucial criteria for the one LIKE MOSES!

Does our Bible tell of a Jewish Messiah who has a Law to obey coming from a mountain? Yes, it does!! It's Yeshua Ben David and the Law is coming from Mt. Zion!!

Christianity will ONLY point YOU to a hill where Christ is apparently eternally bleeding waiting for converts!

Rational Mind, there is no one on that cross physically OR SPIRITUALLY! So, why is Christianity pointing it's converts there? Because THAT RELIGION denies the one like Moses in that Christianity OPENLY tells you you have no Law to obey in their religion with their "Christian Jesus".***Rational Mind is thinking this through, thinking, thinking***

You should never have to betray your common sense and good reasoning in order to follow the Jewish Messiah. Christianity requires that you abandon them both to follow the Christian Jesus.

The fact that "Christian Jesus" doesn't fit the criteria as "one like Moses" due to the fact Christian Jesus has no Law for you to obey, means this discussion is already over and that's enough proof there to prove Christianity is a false religious system that's claims Christ and is on the same level as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Roman Catholicism. How so, Cov?:

Because what you will find consistently TRUE about them all is, NONE adhere to the Law of God at the mouth of Moses!***the Rational Mind is thinking this through***

Common sense and good reasoning says this:

"Christianity, if you aren't UNDER any Law, you have no authority ABOVE you**gasp***

The Christian will say, "we're under the LAW OF THE SPIRIT" BUT the Rational Mind will say, "name 20 if that's so".

Just wait for Part2!!

[chosenone]

It's good to remember that this verse isn't just telling us about Eve, but also about Adam. Eve sinned because she was deceived, but Adam sinned willfully, with his eyes wide open, knowing exactly what he was doing. Which do you think is worse?

Adam's

I agree. I've heard this verse wielded as a weapon by insecure men attempting to "keep the women in their place." Trouble is, they didn't realize they were gripping the blade of a sword and swinging it like a club.

anyone who wields that verse in that way has a problem. I would never dream of using what one man did to attack or accuse another man.

[Nevertheless]

In spite of your enthusiastic support of the "rational mind" your arguments are quite lacking in logic.

Premise 1: In order for a prophet to be "like Moses" he must receive a law from a mountain.

First, the Law Moses received did not come from a mountain, it came from God while Moses was on the mountain, so the "facts" on which you base your premise are faulty.

Second, what is your basis for choosing this one characteristic of Moses on which to test the similarity of a prophet? Moses was of the tribe of Levi, was raised in Pharaoh's household, worked as a shepherd for 40 years, and began his job of leading Israel at age 80. Any of those characteristics could just as easily be chosen to determine if a prophet is "like Moses."

Premise 2: "Christian Jesus has no Law for you to obey"

This is simply false and demonstrates to all that you know very little about Christianity, despite your claims to great knowledge.

[Covkeeper34]

The Rational Mind Pt 2

Let me throw a bullet...

Rational Mind, the popular Christian belief is Christ did  away with the Law. Let's see if we can use our common sense and good reasoning to see if that's so. It's not, but this'll fun....

We know "Christian Jesus" is coming back to judge the world...but wait!!!

Does anyone see the red flag with that?

Common sense says: In order for a judge to judge, THERE HAS TO BE A LAW TO JUDGE WITH!!

"CHRISTIAN JESUS" did away the Law!! Rational Mind, tell your Christian friends to have that make sense to you on a common sense level. They can't!!

If your Christian Beliefs force you to deny your common sense and good reasoning in order to be one of its converts, you are in a FALSE RELIGIOUS SYSTEM!!

Here's the truth, when the Jewish Messiah returns, He will have a Law to judge with because the historically JEWISH Messiah did not do away with the Law on the cross. No, your Bible says He nailed the condemnation of the Law there.***Rational Mind is thinking, thinking***The condemnation is DEATH.

We are in a Grace period where once when the Law requires swift punishment  for transgressions, you now have an open door of REPENTANCE. BUT at the end of days, the same punishment Moses' Law required, is the same punishment you will get!!

Christianity is full of false teachings but you will never know it until you LEARN THE LAW. Christianity discourages that! The average Christian including those on this site are First Testament illiterate. 

That's enough for Pt 2, just wait for Pt 3!!

[RB]

Christianity is full of false teachings but you will never know it until you LEARN THE LAW. Christianity discourages that!

Sir, you should not be allowed to continue speaking "IF" you refuse to enter into a dialogue with anyone who is taken their time and effort to answer your post, which I did, yet you avoided addressing even one point among many, yet I addressed every statement you made, and supported my position with scriptures. So, why should you be allowed to continue speaking on a Christian forum, foaming out of your own shame? You are nothing more than a raging wave of the sea, a wandering star, just as Jude the apostle said of men like you~ Speaking evil of the things you know not!

The average Christian including those on this site are First Testament illiterate.

Really, you have not even tested us as individuals to see if your proud statement is so or not. Christians love BOTH testaments and understand the importance of both.  But, I will say this for now: The OT is nothing more than the NT hidden, while the New Testament is the OT  revealed! I had rather be grounded in the New Testament than the Old. But, that being said. I'll go with Paul, and the rest of the apostle and stand upon the truth that the New Testament has much more glory than the Old. Which I have addressed already, if you care to go there and prove me wrong. But for now, since you glory over Moses above Christ, let us read more form the word of God and see if you have a legitimate, and biblical case to do so...I think not.

Hebrews 3:1-6...Reads~:Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

A few things worthy of our attention for us to see who in God's estimation was worthy to be worship and followed. You say Moses, the word of God said~Jesus Christ! Compare the two: I say based upon God's testimony, that Christ is BETTER than Moses, and must be the object of our worship, or else we have been bewitched by false prophets. Verse one~The passage calls the reader to consider the two offices which Jesus fulfilled. The two offices in which He ministered are "the Apostle and the High Priest of our profession" (3:1b). The term "apostle" means one who is sent forth, like an ambassador, with a message and authority. Christ is the Apostle, whom God sent into the world. In John's Gospel, Christ is frequently referred to as sent by God to make known His will unto His people (John 3:34; 5:36). That was true of Jesus who said, "I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak" (John 12:49). He is the One, whom Moses and all other prophets of old had prophesied, to be sent by God. The Apostle Peter said to the Jews of Jerusalem,

Acts 3:22-26....Reads~ "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, and in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities" .

Summed up, Peter is saying unequivocally that Christ is the prophet whose coming even Moses and the rest of the Old Testament prophets had anticipated. Jesus Christ is also "the High Priest of our profession". He was an infinitely better High Priest than all other high priests of Israel. It was already stated in Hebrews 2:17 that Christ is "a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people". As an High Priest, Christ is our supreme intercessor before God (Hebrews 4:14-7:28).

Verse two~Christ is more glorious than Moses Although verse 2 depicts Moses' faithfulness in the same breath as Jesus', there is a difference. In verse 3, we read about Jesus that "... this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses". Here, the Spirit of God asserts that Christ is more excellent than Moses. The Gospel prophet, Jesus Christ, is far superior to Moses, the greatest of Jewish prophets! Moses' face once shone with the glory of God, but it was only a reflection – a transitory glory. On the other hand, Christ's glory is a "glory that excelleth" (2 Corinthians 3:10). The superiority of Christ's glory over Moses' is further explained in verses 3 to 6 with reference to His position and person. Later...........

[chosenone]

please refer back to post 186 ck 

it ends in these words.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
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[Covkeeper34]

Brief Intermission--Defusing RB
***sgh***

Like you said in paragraph one of your last reply, there are SO MANY points coming from alot of people for me to address. And like I said, anyone can post a bunch of verses, put then together and say, "voila!, Truth!". I'm reading everything you say, RB but I have to answer you from a different angle. You may not like how I answer but I am going to address your thoughts.

I'll answer your last reply, now. But as you can see, I'm busy pointing out things widely believed in Christianity that aren't true, like: Many Christians do in fact believe the Law is done away with and I know many do because I talk to many. I'm proving that to be false belief in front of you all using mere common sense.


Your second paragraph:

The average Christian does not know their Law and I know they don't because I talk to many frequently. My statement is true. If Christians knew the Law, they wouldn't say it's done away with and I'm not yet done proving them wrong on that point. I can ask you a simple yes or no question: Is the Law done away with, RB?

You said something the AVERAGE Christian would say: You'd rather be grounded in the NT than old. Hmmm.....Let's use our common sense and good reasoning to see if that makes sense:

The First Testament is the foundation of the second. Let's paint a picture. You have a foundation and then you have the house built on top of the foundation. You say, you'd rather have the house first and then try to fit the foundation in somewhere afterwards. Rational Mind, this is a prime example of the backwards thinking of Christianity!! It's a false religious system lol. Common sense says: familiarize yourself with the foundation, then build the house on top! The majority of the westernized Christian world thinks just like you and I know this because I grew up in that world. And it's that backwards thinking that made me leave that backwards religion among a myriad of other reasons. You do greatly err with your backwards theology**smh***

Not only do you err in that point but you also misunderstand why the Renewed Covenant is more glorious than the first. It's the same Covenant, only modified. First, Levitical Law and the Nation specific Laws are largely done away with. And second, Grace overflows now where it was shall we say "limited" then. That's all there is to that.

Your third paragraph:

The "Word of God" as defined biblically is what God gave to Moses. But in Christian propaganda, it's everything between the Leather covers. They're wrong. Just like Christianity would like you to believe that everything after Malachi is "Scripture". They're wrong again. Scripture consistently defined in the Bible is Torah and Tanakh. Wherever you see the word "Scripture" in the NT, it's referring to no book in the NT at all. Oh, you can take me to Peter where he mentions the word and we can get that cleared up super fast.

Your fourth paragraph:

True

Your fifth paragraph:

Of course God in the flesh is better than any clay figure that's come out of the womb!! Geez!! Don't make the foolish Christian mistake of thinking I'm exalting the PERSON OF Moses over anyone. No, I'm showing that the Law is not done away with and is still to be observed. I've only stopped to answer you but there are still more Parts that I'm writing because it's leading up to something. So, be patient, part 3 is on its way

[Covkeeper34]

please refer back to post 186 ck 

it ends in these words.

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
Modify message

I'm going to address this immediately after work tonight. This is always one of my favorite ones when Christians use it. The answer will be biblical.