Born again......adults

[skeeter]

skeeter,

You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings about baptism. However I'm going away for the weekend and I'm already behind schedule so I will have to leave it until I get back and I respond then (unless Ladonia hasm already covered them).

winsome

no, I don't have a misunderstanding about baptism,  you do.  I once believed as you do (when I was catholic).  but after being saved (and having understanding) and studying the subject, my understanding of it changed.  that was based on what Jesus and the apostles taught instead of what I was taught in catholic schools.
catholics get their 'understanding' from the RCC, CCC, ecfs etc.

I get my understanding from 2,000 years of teaching by the Church that Paul described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim 3:15), from the teaching of great theologians, from the teaching of the of the early fathers who received their teaching from the apostles just as Paul instructed (2Tim 2:2), from teaching of the the leaders of the Church assembled in great councils - all teaching the same thing for 2,000 years

that's a lot of yrs of false teaching pounded into you. btdt, never again.  now I go straight to the word of God for my info.

paul wasn't saying that about the RCC.  it didn't exist at that time.  He was talking about the Christians, the believers in Christ.

if those you consider the ecfs received their 'teaching' from Paul, then what they write would agree with Paul.  Paul called the believers the body of Christ, the 'church'.

[Hexalpa]

It's only been in the last year that I have come across a person saying that one can be Saved before they are baptised and that one does not need be Baptised.

One dude is saying he got saved and then if you want you can get Baptised if you want to.
How he will come up to people and leads them to be saved by going through saying words after him and bang he declares you saved.

That is a load of rubbish to me, I was Baptised and brought up a Christian all my life, now the Baptism did not save me but I was a believer in Christ and seeking Jesus all the time, but it was not until I was Born again that I came to know Jesus was truly my Lord and Saviour.
No one came say that I was Born again or any rubbish like that, but God was the one who did it, just like he did too Paul, I was blown away type of experience and I was by myself and I remember it totally, I knew who he truly is and it's absolute and I can't go back to my position that I once was in, of maybe or of little faith as I have the Holy Spirit now, Christ dwelling in me and I in him. I am still a sinner but I have a handle on it and by that I mean much more control over it. other people may not think so but they are looking at things through rose coloured glasses form a worldly perspective of what they think I should be.
The Saints were not goody goody's who said things that people wanted to hear, they pointed out the facts and I never heard one say they were not a sinner.

I was like 35 yo for crying out loud, it was a process you get Baptised and hopefully you get the Spiritual Baptism and that's the one all should seek for.
Just because you are Born again does not mean that you know everything, but you can grow more so in the Lord Jesus from that point on, it's like a marriage you can't get divorced or you were never born again in the first place. 

There is totally nothing wrong with water Baptism at all, as the fact is not all will become born again anyway, and one can still go to Heaven because all you need is to believe in Jesus Christ.

But just because someone comes up saying that they are going to Heaven, does not make it a fact !
Satan would say just that as well, Satan is a giver as well, remember he was going to give Jesus everything ! Satan only had this world to give and it's not his anyway, as he does not have the Keys, he only has the power to corrupt and lead us into to hell.
Jesus came that he may lead us away from such and becoming slaves to sin.   

[skeeter]

skeeter,

Just because Jesus used water as a metahor for the Holy Spirit on two occasions it does not mean that you can just substitute 'Holy Spirit' every time you see 'water' in the New Testament.

Try it with:
And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:37-39)

Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism with water.

read the full story of the eunuch - he believed,  then he was baptized in water.  and that was prior to the death and resurrection, right?

Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

are you referring to 2 that I posted about water as the Holy Spirit or did you search out water and the Holy Spirit and only find 2?

Offhand I can only remember 2 occasions when Jesus used water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit - John 4:4-28 & John 7:37-39. If you know of others then please remind me.

Titus 3
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit,  6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  7 so that, being justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

where's the mention of water?  you don't know the difference, do you?

What do you think a bath contains? The word in Greek is loutrou - Strong 3067
G3067
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.


And note it is "through the bath (or washing) of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit"

yes, it is figurative.  it's a spiritual cleansing.  no water needed.

[skeeter]

It's only been in the last year that I have come across a person saying that one can be Saved before they are baptised and that one does not need be Baptised.

One dude is saying he got saved and then if you want you can get Baptised if you want to.
How he will come up to people and leads them to be saved by going through saying words after him and bang he declares you saved.

That is a load of rubbish to me, I was Baptised and brought up a Christian all my life, now the Baptism did not save me but I was a believer in Christ and seeking Jesus all the time, but it was not until I was Born again that I came to know Jesus was truly my Lord and Saviour.
No one came say that I was Born again or any rubbish like that, but God was the one who did it, just like he did too Paul, I was blown away type of experience and I was by myself and I remember it totally, I knew who he truly is and it's absolute and I can't go back to my position that I once was in, of maybe or of little faith as I have the Holy Spirit now, Christ dwelling in me and I in him. I am still a sinner but I have a handle on it and by that I mean much more control over it. other people may not think so but they are looking at things through rose coloured glasses form a worldly perspective of what they think I should be.
The Saints were not goody goody's who said things that people wanted to hear, they pointed out the facts and I never heard one say they were not a sinner.

I was like 35 yo for crying out loud, it was a process you get Baptised and hopefully you get the Spiritual Baptism and that's the one all should seek for.
Just because you are Born again does not mean that you know everything, but you can grow more so in the Lord Jesus from that point on, it's like a marriage you can't get divorced or you were never born again in the first place. 

There is totally nothing wrong with water Baptism at all, as the fact is not all will become born again anyway, and one can still go to Heaven because all you need is to believe in Jesus Christ.

But just because someone comes up saying that they are going to Heaven, does not make it a fact !
Satan would say just that as well, Satan is a giver as well, remember he was going to give Jesus everything ! Satan only had this world to give and it's not his anyway, as he does not have the Keys, he only has the power to corrupt and lead us into to hell.
Jesus came that he may lead us away from such and becoming slaves to sin.

According to Jesus no one is going to  heaven unless they are born again.

being born again is what happens when one has the heart belief in Christ... the circumcision of the heart.  it's totally different that head knowledge/belief.

[winsome]

skeeter,

You seem to have a lot of misunderstandings about baptism. However I'm going away for the weekend and I'm already behind schedule so I will have to leave it until I get back and I respond then (unless Ladonia hasm already covered them).

winsome

no, I don't have a misunderstanding about baptism,  you do.  I once believed as you do (when I was catholic).  but after being saved (and having understanding) and studying the subject, my understanding of it changed.  that was based on what Jesus and the apostles taught instead of what I was taught in catholic schools.
catholics get their 'understanding' from the RCC, CCC, ecfs etc.

I get my understanding from 2,000 years of teaching by the Church that Paul described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1Tim 3:15), from the teaching of great theologians, from the teaching of the of the early fathers who received their teaching from the apostles just as Paul instructed (2Tim 2:2), from teaching of the the leaders of the Church assembled in great councils - all teaching the same thing for 2,000 years

that's a lot of yrs of false teaching pounded into you. btdt, never again.  now I go straight to the word of God for my info.

paul wasn't saying that about the RCC.  it didn't exist at that time.  He was talking about the Christians, the believers in Christ.

if those you consider the ecfs received their 'teaching' from Paul, then what they write would agree with Paul.  Paul called the believers the body of Christ, the 'church'.

You get you info by personal and fallible interpretation of the word of God.
And because you are fallible you get it wrong.

As I said
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
Skeeter says he who believes is saved without baptism
Should I believe Jesus or skeeter?

Peter says baptism saves you (1Pet 3:21)
Skeeter says baptism doesn't save you.
Should I believe Peter or skeeter?

Why should I believe your personal and fallible interpretation of the word of God when it so obviously contradicts the word of God?

[winsome]

skeeter,

Just because Jesus used water as a metahor for the Holy Spirit on two occasions it does not mean that you can just substitute 'Holy Spirit' every time you see 'water' in the New Testament.

Try it with:
And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:37-39)

Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism with water.

read the full story of the eunuch - he believed,  then he was baptized in water.  and that was prior to the death and resurrection, right?

Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

are you referring to 2 that I posted about water as the Holy Spirit or did you search out water and the Holy Spirit and only find 2?

Offhand I can only remember 2 occasions when Jesus used water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit - John 4:4-28 & John 7:37-39. If you know of others then please remind me.

Titus 3
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit,  6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  7 so that, being justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

where's the mention of water?  you don't know the difference, do you?

What do you think a bath contains? The word in Greek is loutrou - Strong 3067
G3067
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.


And note it is "through the bath (or washing) of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit"

yes, it is figurative.  it's a spiritual cleansing.  no water needed.

It's a spiritual cleansing symbolised by the cleansing of water in the water of rebirth:
"..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
It was prophesied by Ezekial:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

In the water we are cleansed of sin
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16)

I believe the word or God – not skeeter.

[mclees8]

skeeter,

Just because Jesus used water as a metahor for the Holy Spirit on two occasions it does not mean that you can just substitute 'Holy Spirit' every time you see 'water' in the New Testament.

Try it with:
And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:37-39)

Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism with water.

read the full story of the eunuch - he believed,  then he was baptized in water.  and that was prior to the death and resurrection, right?

Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

are you referring to 2 that I posted about water as the Holy Spirit or did you search out water and the Holy Spirit and only find 2?

Offhand I can only remember 2 occasions when Jesus used water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit - John 4:4-28 & John 7:37-39. If you know of others then please remind me.

Titus 3
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit,  6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  7 so that, being justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

where's the mention of water?  you don't know the difference, do you?

What do you think a bath contains? The word in Greek is loutrou - Strong 3067
G3067
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.


And note it is "through the bath (or washing) of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit"

yes, it is figurative.  it's a spiritual cleansing.  no water needed.

It's a spiritual cleansing symbolised by the cleansing of water in the water of rebirth:
"..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
It was prophesied by Ezekial:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

In the water we are cleansed of sin
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16)

I believe the word or God – not skeeter.

Your first two references speak of spiritual cleansing

The baptism in acts is act that represents the cleansing of ones sins but it does not mean spiritual rebirth as batised in the spirit.   Reading the book of acts shows this and I will give you the scripture next post

[Ladonia]

skeeter,

Just because Jesus used water as a metahor for the Holy Spirit on two occasions it does not mean that you can just substitute 'Holy Spirit' every time you see 'water' in the New Testament.

Try it with:
And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:37-39)

Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism with water.

read the full story of the eunuch - he believed,  then he was baptized in water.  and that was prior to the death and resurrection, right?

Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

are you referring to 2 that I posted about water as the Holy Spirit or did you search out water and the Holy Spirit and only find 2?

Offhand I can only remember 2 occasions when Jesus used water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit - John 4:4-28 & John 7:37-39. If you know of others then please remind me.

Titus 3
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit,  6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  7 so that, being justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

where's the mention of water?  you don't know the difference, do you?

What do you think a bath contains? The word in Greek is loutrou - Strong 3067
G3067
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.


And note it is "through the bath (or washing) of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit"

yes, it is figurative.  it's a spiritual cleansing.  no water needed.

It's a spiritual cleansing symbolised by the cleansing of water in the water of rebirth:
"..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
It was prophesied by Ezekial:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

In the water we are cleansed of sin
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16)

I believe the word or God – not skeeter.

That's right!  Baptism is mentioned time and time again in the Scriptures and I don't think it would have even been brought up one time if it didn't matter.

[winsome]

skeeter,

Just because Jesus used water as a metahor for the Holy Spirit on two occasions it does not mean that you can just substitute 'Holy Spirit' every time you see 'water' in the New Testament.

Try it with:
And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:37-39)

Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism with water.

read the full story of the eunuch - he believed,  then he was baptized in water.  and that was prior to the death and resurrection, right?

Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

are you referring to 2 that I posted about water as the Holy Spirit or did you search out water and the Holy Spirit and only find 2?

Offhand I can only remember 2 occasions when Jesus used water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit - John 4:4-28 & John 7:37-39. If you know of others then please remind me.

Titus 3
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit,  6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  7 so that, being justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

where's the mention of water?  you don't know the difference, do you?

What do you think a bath contains? The word in Greek is loutrou - Strong 3067
G3067
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.


And note it is "through the bath (or washing) of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit"

yes, it is figurative.  it's a spiritual cleansing.  no water needed.

It's a spiritual cleansing symbolised by the cleansing of water in the water of rebirth:
"..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
It was prophesied by Ezekial:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

In the water we are cleansed of sin
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16)

I believe the word or God – not skeeter.

Your first two references speak of spiritual cleansing

Yes, the cleansing is spiritual. Our sins are forgiven.Baptism symbolises that cleansing and the cleansing happens in baptism.

The baptism in acts is act that represents the cleansing of ones sins but it does not mean spiritual rebirth as batised in the spirit.   Reading the book of acts shows this and I will give you the scripture next post

Spiritual rebirth is not baptism in the spirit. It is when we are regenerated, born again, born from above. That happens in baptism (with water)

[skeeter]

Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

yes, it is figurative.  it's a spiritual cleansing.  no water needed.

It's a spiritual cleansing symbolised by the cleansing of water in the water of rebirth:
"..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
It was prophesied by Ezekial:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you (Ez 36:25-27)

In the water we are cleansed of sin
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16)

I believe the word or God – not skeeter.

no one believes without being baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit.

you might want to read the part in matt 16 again where Jesus says Peter didn't learn what he did except by God.

isn't Acts 22 prior to Paul's time with Christ?

then why hasn't all that sprinkling of water cleansed catholics from their idols?

when your heart is circumcised, you'll know the difference and you'll know liquid water has nothing to do with it.

[mclees8]

skeeter,

Just because Jesus used water as a metahor for the Holy Spirit on two occasions it does not mean that you can just substitute 'Holy Spirit' every time you see 'water' in the New Testament.

Try it with:
And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?" And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:37-39)

Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism with water.

read the full story of the eunuch - he believed,  then he was baptized in water.  and that was prior to the death and resurrection, right?

Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

are you referring to 2 that I posted about water as the Holy Spirit or did you search out water and the Holy Spirit and only find 2?

Offhand I can only remember 2 occasions when Jesus used water as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit - John 4:4-28 & John 7:37-39. If you know of others then please remind me.

Titus 3
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit,  6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,  7 so that, being justified by His grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life

where's the mention of water?  you don't know the difference, do you?

What do you think a bath contains? The word in Greek is loutrou - Strong 3067
G3067
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.


And note it is "through the bath (or washing) of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit"

yes, it is figurative.  it's a spiritual cleansing.  no water needed.

It's a spiritual cleansing symbolised by the cleansing of water in the water of rebirth:
"..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
It was prophesied by Ezekial:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

In the water we are cleansed of sin
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16)

I believe the word or God – not skeeter.

Your first two references speak of spiritual cleansing

Yes, the cleansing is spiritual. Our sins are forgiven.Baptism symbolises that cleansing and the cleansing happens in baptism.

The baptism in acts is act that represents the cleansing of ones sins but it does not mean spiritual rebirth as batised in the spirit.   Reading the book of acts shows this and I will give you the scripture next post

Spiritual rebirth is not baptism in the spirit. It is when we are regenerated, born again, born from above. That happens in baptism (with water)

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offerc him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Lk 11:11-13

We need to ask the lord for His holy Spirit.   There are many spiritually minded people in the world, but not of Christ. When we talk of the spirit of God there is but one Holy Spirit and we receive Him when we desire of God to have Him. The 120 in the Upper Room waited for the promise because they desired for God to send Him.  Today I will tell you of a truth. One will not know the Holy Spirit To be born again of the Spirit except they truly desire to have Him and Come to Christ in their private place to meet with Christ in prayer.

[winsome]

 

  Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)
 

yes, it is figurative.  it's a spiritual cleansing.  no water needed.

It's a spiritual cleansing symbolised by the cleansing of water in the water of rebirth:
"..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
   
It was prophesied by Ezekial:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you (Ez 36:25-27)

In the water we are cleansed of sin
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16)
 
I believe the word or God – not skeeter.

no one believes without being baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit.

That is ambiguous.

Do you mean that the Holy Spirit has to baptise you into Christ before you believe?
Or
You are baptised in to Christ by the Holy Spirit at the moment you believe?

Either way can you provide some evidence for your claim. Just saying it isn't proof.

you might want to read the part in matt 16 again where Jesus says Peter didn't learn what he did except by God.

Why would I want to do that?

isn't Acts 22 prior to Paul's time with Christ?

What relevance does that have?

then why hasn't all that sprinkling of water cleansed catholics from their idols?

What idols?

when your heart is circumcised, you'll know the difference and you'll know liquid water has nothing to do with it.

That's not what Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)

That's not what Peter said: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (1Pet 3:21)

That's not what Ezekial prophesied: I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

You believe your novel theories. I'll believe the word of God.

skeeter you claim to get your understanding from the word of God but seem unable to provide and evidence from the word of God to back up your claims. You just keep stating your personal opinions, whereas I give you arguments backed up by scripture..

[skeeter]

Of course he believed first, But he wasn't saved until he was baptised.
Just as Jesus said: He who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mk 16:16)

where's the mention of water?  you don't know the difference, do you?

What do you think a bath contains? The word in Greek is loutrou - Strong 3067
G3067
loutron
loo-tron'
From G3068; a bath, that is, (figuratively) baptism:—washing.


And note it is "through the bath (or washing) of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit"

yes, it is figurative.  it's a spiritual cleansing.  no water needed.

It's a spiritual cleansing symbolised by the cleansing of water in the water of rebirth:
"..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
 
It was prophesied by Ezekial:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

In the water we are cleansed of sin
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16)

I believe the word or God – not skeeter.

That's right!  Baptism is mentioned time and time again in the Scriptures

and I don't think it would have even been brought up one time if it didn't matter.

yes, baptism is mentioned many times  in the bible. But, they aren't all water baptism (as with JTB).  figure out why and what it means.

so, now you are saying that if something isn't even mentioned once in the bible  it doesn't matter?
that seems to be a sudden change for catholics.  they usually think a number of things not in the bible do matter  - like EV Mary, the assumption, co-redeemer, purgatory, praying to the dead saints, indulgences, water baptism required for salvation,  the sacraments also a requirement for salvation, etc.

[Hexalpa]

It's only been in the last year that I have come across a person saying that one can be Saved before they are baptised and that one does not need be Baptised.

One dude is saying he got saved and then if you want you can get Baptised if you want to.
How he will come up to people and leads them to be saved by going through saying words after him and bang he declares you saved.

That is a load of rubbish to me, I was Baptised and brought up a Christian all my life, now the Baptism did not save me but I was a believer in Christ and seeking Jesus all the time, but it was not until I was Born again that I came to know Jesus was truly my Lord and Saviour.
No one came say that I was Born again or any rubbish like that, but God was the one who did it, just like he did too Paul, I was blown away type of experience and I was by myself and I remember it totally, I knew who he truly is and it's absolute and I can't go back to my position that I once was in, of maybe or of little faith as I have the Holy Spirit now, Christ dwelling in me and I in him. I am still a sinner but I have a handle on it and by that I mean much more control over it. other people may not think so but they are looking at things through rose coloured glasses form a worldly perspective of what they think I should be.
The Saints were not goody goody's who said things that people wanted to hear, they pointed out the facts and I never heard one say they were not a sinner.

I was like 35 yo for crying out loud, it was a process you get Baptised and hopefully you get the Spiritual Baptism and that's the one all should seek for.
Just because you are Born again does not mean that you know everything, but you can grow more so in the Lord Jesus from that point on, it's like a marriage you can't get divorced or you were never born again in the first place. 

There is totally nothing wrong with water Baptism at all, as the fact is not all will become born again anyway, and one can still go to Heaven because all you need is to believe in Jesus Christ.

But just because someone comes up saying that they are going to Heaven, does not make it a fact !
Satan would say just that as well, Satan is a giver as well, remember he was going to give Jesus everything ! Satan only had this world to give and it's not his anyway, as he does not have the Keys, he only has the power to corrupt and lead us into to hell.
Jesus came that he may lead us away from such and becoming slaves to sin.

According to Jesus no one is going to  heaven unless they are born again.

being born again is what happens when one has the heart belief in Christ... the circumcision of the heart.  it's totally different that head knowledge/belief.

I think he knows who are his and it's not for me to say at all nor is it of any other person.
People love Jesus with all their heart, who are we to say, or know by pointing the finger at one to say anything like that.
If we were to push such we are then working to undermine a person of faith and that's a work of Satan I would think.
When one's heart believes in Jesus, yes that's one part of being born again as to the Holy Spirit has given you that much.   

[skeeter]

when your heart is circumcised, you'll know the difference and you'll know liquid water has nothing to do with it.

That's not what Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)

That's not what Peter said: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (1Pet 3:21)

That's not what Ezekial prophesied: I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

You believe your novel theories. I'll believe the word of God.

skeeter you claim to get your understanding from the word of God but seem unable to provide and evidence from the word of God to back up your claims. You just keep stating your personal opinions, whereas I give you arguments backed up by scripture..

one who believes from their heart has been baptized.

I believe what God's word says, not words from the ecfs, rcc/ccc or pope

no you don't, catholics don't. just posting the cite of some verses doesn't mean they support your false beliefs.

[skeeter]

you might want to read the part in matt 16 again where Jesus says Peter didn't learn what he did except by God.

Why would I want to do that?

why not read it and see what it says?

isn't Acts 22 prior to Paul's time with Christ?

What relevance does that have??

why don't you know? if you don't know, how can you understand the timing in His word?

then why hasn't all that sprinkling of water cleansed catholics from their idols?

What idols??

all of those that catholics put before Jesus.

when your heart is circumcised, you'll know the difference and you'll know liquid water has nothing to do with it.

That's not what Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)

that's not all that was said,  is it?  why didn't you post all of it?  because it doesn't  say those who aren't baptized will be condemned, does it?

Mk 16:16

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

[winsome]

 

when your heart is circumcised, you'll know the difference and you'll know liquid water has nothing to do with it.

That's not what Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
 
That's not what Peter said: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (1Pet 3:21)
 
That's not what Ezekial prophesied: I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

You believe your novel theories. I'll believe the word of God.skeeter you claim to get your understanding from the word of God but seem unable to provide and evidence from the word of God to back up your claims. You just keep stating your personal opinions, whereas I give you arguments backed up by scripture..

one who believes from their heart has been baptized.

I believe what God's word says, not words from the ecfs, rcc/ccc or pope

But you are unable to support your beliefs with a single scripture quote. 

no you don't, catholics don't. just posting the cite of some verses doesn't mean they support your false beliefs.

The verses I post support my true beliefs.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
 
  Peter said: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (1Pet 3:21)
 
  Ezekial prophesied: I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

You believe your novel theories. I'll believe the word of God.


You prove me wrong. Just saying my beliefs are false is meaningless.

[winsome]

 

 

you might want to read the part in matt 16 again where Jesus says Peter didn't learn what he did except by God.

Why would I want to do that?

why not read it and see what it says?

It's not what it says that is at question. It's what you think it says that I want to know
  .

Mt 16:16 says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).

Do you get that? Jesus is telling us that baptism is part of being saved.

 

 

  isn't Acts 22 prior to Paul's time with Christ?

What relevance does that have??

why don't you know? if you don't know, how can you understand the timing in His word?

Skeeter, I'm not a mind reader. I can't know what is going on inside your head unless you tell me.

 

 

  then why hasn't all that sprinkling of water cleansed catholics from their idols?

What idols??

all of those that catholics put before Jesus.

There are none. And you are trying to divert the issue here.

 

when your heart is circumcised, you'll know the difference and you'll know liquid water has nothing to do with it.

That's not what Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)

that's not all that was said,  is it?  why didn't you post all of it?  because it doesn't  say those who aren't baptized will be condemned, does it?

Mk 16:16

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Sure that leaves open the question of what happens to those who believe but are not baptised. That's why the Church says that baptism is normative. It's the way Jesus has given us.
However, there are occasions where someone believes but is unable to be baptised before they die. We believe that Christ will not condemn them.


But that does not mean you can just ignore Jesus' command. Those who have been informed that Baptism is part of the salvation process and refuse to be baptised are being disobedient. Being disobedient is disbelief.

skeeter, I have posted many verses that support my contention that baptism (in water) is salvific. I have shown you that this was believed in the early Church.

You seem to believe that just believing is enough but have not given any scripture to support your opinions. You claim to get your opinions from the word of God.

Where in the word of God do they come from?

If you get your opinions from the word of God give me something from the word of God that supports your claims.

[AVZ]

It's not what it says that is at question. It's what you think it says that I want to know
  .

Mt 16:16 says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).

Do you get that? Jesus is telling us that baptism is part of being saved.

So why have all these Catholics not being sure they are saved?

[winsome]

It's not what it says that is at question. It's what you think it says that I want to know
  .

Mt 16:16 says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).

Do you get that? Jesus is telling us that baptism is part of being saved.

So why have all these Catholics not being sure they are saved?

All Catholics know (or should know) that they were saved (justified) in baptism. However the Catholic Church does not hold to the false doctrine of OSAS.

However OSAS, or future salvation, are not the issues here. It's about our initial justification which happens in baptism.

[skeeter]

no you don't, catholics don't. just posting the cite of some verses doesn't mean they support your false beliefs.

The verses I post support my true beliefs.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
[/b] 
  Peter said: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (1Pet 3:21)
 
  Ezekial prophesied: I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)

You believe your novel theories. I'll believe the word of God.


You prove me wrong. Just saying my beliefs are false is meaningless.

why is it again that you only post the first half of mark 16.16?  do you have a vs that says 'he who isn't baptized is condemned'?
what if that vs started out as 'he who is baptized and wears a green shirt'?  then follow leaving the shirt out of the 2nd half.   do you believe that if someone isn't wearing that green shirt they will be condemned?

if you believed God's word, you'd actually study it and you wouldn't be pulling writings from the ecfs or the ccc or praying to Mary.

1Pet 3:21
20 which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
 
21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body, but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him.

water baptism is called the antitype.  it came before baptism into Christ.  it was before His death and resurrection. 
note that it says in vs 21 "a response to God from a good conscience thru the resurrection of Christ".  no water needed now. it's the response of a repentant heart to God.

God's word will prove you wrong.  you do the reading and studying. 

[winsome]

 

  no you don't, catholics don't. just posting the cite of some verses doesn't mean they support your false beliefs.

The verses I post support my true beliefs.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
   
   Peter said: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (1Pet 3:21)
   
   Ezekial prophesied: I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)
 
  You believe your novel theories. I'll believe the word of God.


  You prove me wrong. Just saying my beliefs are false is meaningless.

why is it again that you only post the first half of mark 16.16?  do you have a vs that says 'he who isn't baptized is condemned'?
what if that vs started out as 'he who is baptized and wears a green shirt'?  then follow leaving the shirt out of the 2nd half.   do you believe that if someone isn't wearing that green shirt they will be condemned?

Already answered.
Why do you just ignore my answers?
Is it because you can't answer them?
 

if you believed God's word, you'd actually study it and you wouldn't be pulling writings from the ecfs or the ccc or praying to Mary.

The tactic of a loser – divert on to something else.
 

1Pet 3:21
20 which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
   
21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body, but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him.

water baptism is called the antitype.  it came before baptism into Christ.  it was before His death and resurrection. 
note that it says in vs 21 "a response to God from a good conscience thru the resurrection of Christ".  no water needed now. it's the response of a repentant heart to God.

Peter was writing after Jesus' death and resurrection. He wrote baptism saves you now

Why do you try and ignore scripture?

Skeeter, when you see the word baptism in the NT, it means with water.

If you see the word baptise, unless it is qualifies as in Mt 3:11, Lk 3:16, Jn 1;33, Acts 1:5, it means with water.

Peter baptised with water
Philip baptised with water
Paul baptised with water/

All after Jesus' death and resurrection

God's word will prove you wrong.  you do the reading and studying.

God's word has already proved you wrong. You need to study it more.

[skeeter]

  no you don't, catholics don't. just posting the cite of some verses doesn't mean they support your false beliefs.

The verses I post support my true beliefs.
Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16)
   
   Peter said: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (1Pet 3:21)
   
   Ezekial prophesied: I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.  I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you.... (Ez 36:25-27)
 
  You believe your novel theories. I'll believe the word of God.


  You prove me wrong. Just saying my beliefs are false is meaningless.

why is it again that you only post the first half of mark 16.16?  do you have a vs that says 'he who isn't baptized is condemned'?
what if that vs started out as 'he who is baptized and wears a green shirt'?  then follow leaving the shirt out of the 2nd half.   do you believe that if someone isn't wearing that green shirt they will be condemned?

Already answered.
Why do you just ignore my answers?
Is it because you can't answer them?
 

  if you believed God's word, you'd actually study it and you wouldn't be pulling writings from the ecfs or the ccc or praying to Mary.

The tactic of a loser – divert on to something else.
 

1Pet 3:21
20 which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
   
21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body, but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him.

water baptism is called the antitype.  it came before baptism into Christ.  it was before His death and resurrection. 
note that it says in vs 21 "a response to God from a good conscience thru the resurrection of Christ".  no water needed now. it's the response of a repentant heart to God.

Peter was writing after Jesus' death and resurrection. He wrote baptism saves you now

Why do you try and ignore scripture?

Skeeter, when you see the word baptism in the NT, it means with water.

If you see the word baptise, unless it is qualifies as in Mt 3:11, Lk 3:16, Jn 1;33, Acts 1:5, it means with water.

Peter baptised with water
Philip baptised with water
Paul baptised with water

All after Jesus' death and resurrection

why would you expect me to answer your answers?  (maroon bold above)

No, all mention of 'baptize' in the NT does not refer to water baptism.

NO,  they aren't all after His death and resurrection.  Mt, Lk and john aren't after either... those 3 are about JTB and his baptism.
and Acts?  He hadn't yet ascended. you'll note in Acts 1 He was still teaching His people.

let's look at the vs in Acts 1

5 "For John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

it says that John baptized with water... that was prior to the death of the Lord.  that was 'unto repentance', not salvation.  There was no salvation by His death and resurrection yet.

then there's that little word BUT - that's means something in scripture.  He tells us that He is now changing something.  that He is the one talking, means He is still here on earth.  He had not yet ascended or stopped teaching.

why did you post that these verses were all after His death and resurrection?
these things mean something in scripture!

God's word will prove you wrong.  you do the reading and studying.

God's word has already proved you wrong. You need to study it more.

no, His word doesn't prove me wrong.  it proves you wrong.  all your replies above are just deflections from my questions because you have no biblical answers.

regarding 1 peter vs - he is speaking to those who were familiar with the water baptism of JTB.  he is comparing that to the baptism into Christ.  note it  uses the word 'figuratively'  and says 'it is like' baptism (as prev known).  which is why we still do the water baptism as a symbol and proclamation to all that we have been saved.

[winsome]

 

1Pet 3:21
20 which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
   
21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body, but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him.

water baptism is called the antitype.  it came before baptism into Christ.  it was before His death and resurrection. 
note that it says in vs 21 "a response to God from a good conscience thru the resurrection of Christ".  no water needed now. it's the response of a repentant heart to God.

God's word will prove you wrong.  you do the reading and studying.

regarding 1 peter vs - he is speaking to those who were familiar with the water baptism of JTB.  he is comparing that to the baptism into Christ.  note it  uses the word 'figuratively'  and says 'it is like' baptism (as prev known).  which is why we still do the water baptism as a symbol and proclamation to all that we have been saved.

skeeter,

1 Pet 3:18-21
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We need to go though this in detail because you are missing the points that Peter is making, and also trying to make "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" nullify Peter's clear statement "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

But first you comment that Peter is speaking to those familiar with the baptism of JtB. This is not true. Peter is writing some 30 years after the death and resurrection of Christ (and the death of JtB). Moreover he is writing to Christians who will have been baptised with water in Christian baptism. Also He is writing to "To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia" not to those who would have been familiar with the baptism of JtB. Therefore it is nothing to do with the baptism of JtB. It is Christian baptism (with water) that he is referring to.

That Peter baptised with water is clear from Acts 10:47-48 when he said about Cornelius and his household ""Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ.". This baptism is with water, and it is "in the name of Jesus Christ" so not the baptism of JtB.

Now go back to Acts 2:38 'Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins'.
Note:
1. This baptism is in the name of Jesus Christ and therefore not the baptism of JtB (and why would Peter do that anyway).  This baptism is with water just as Peter had baptised Cornelius & household with water "in the name of Jesus Christ"

2. This baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.

This is the baptism that Peter is referring to in 1Pet 3:21.

With that in mind let me show you the proper understanding of what Peter writes there.

In 1Pet 3:18-19 (and previously) Peter is clearly writing about the spiritual life and salvation. Bear that in mind. Too many people look at verse 20 in a purely physical way as saving people from drowning.

Peter makes a comparison between the way Noah & family were saved and baptism. The former is the type (or pre-figuring). Baptism is the anti-type (or figure). Such comparisons do not correspond in every detail but in the important points.

Peter says they were saved through water in the sense of by water. Just as we are saved through or by the waters of baptism.

Peter clearly says eight people were saved through water. So they were saved. But in what sense?
Remember I suggested we should be looking at the spiritual meaning. The water (the flood) destroyed the world with all it's sin and iniquity.

Immediately before God tells Noah to build the Ark he explains what he is doing:
"In the eyes of God the earth was corrupt and full of lawlessness. When God saw how corrupt the earth had become, since all mortals led depraved lives on earth, he said to Noah: "I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth."(Gen 6:11-13).

And it saves us in a similar way, by clearing out the sin and iniquity in us because baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. As Peter goes on to say it is an appeal to God for a clear conscience - because our sins are forgiven.

Peter's comment "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" is not nullifying is previous statement, Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, but is confirming and amplifying the typology.

Further, it was not only Peter that baptised with water but Philip. In Acts 8:36-38 we have Philip baptising the Ethiopian, clearly with water.
As they travelled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptised?"
Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptised him.

Just prior to this Philip had been baptising in Samaria. So we can reasonably assume that this too was with water and distince from the batism of JtB.
..once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, men and women alike were baptized. (Acts 8:12).
As with Peter (above) note:
2. This baptism is with water.
3. This baptism is in the name of Jesus (vs 16) – so not the baptism of JtB (and why would Philip do that anyway).

Then we come to Paul. He was baptised with water:
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16). Having sins washed away is clearly a reference to water. And note the connection of the forgiveness of sin to (water) baptism as noted previously. So Paul understands baptism as being with water and for the forgiveness of sins.

Then in Acts 19 Paul comes across 12 men at Ephesus who have only been baptised with John's baptism. He orders them to be baptised "in the name of Jesus" (verse 4). This, as I showed earlier, is baptism with water.

There are other text that indicate that baptism is with water, and for the forgiveness of sins:
"..let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water." (Heb 10:22
"..he saved us, ......through the water of rebirth" (Ti 3:5)

Thus Christian baptism, as practiced and taught by Peter, Philip and Paul was with water and for the forgiveness of sins. And as I showed earlier such baptism was practiced by the early Church from apostolic times onwards.

The idea that it "a symbol and proclamation to all that we have been saved." Is a recent invention and unbiblical. 

[Ladonia]

1Pet 3:21
20 which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
   
21 Figuratively this is like baptism, which also saves us now. It is not washing off the dirt from the body, but a response to God from a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,  22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels and authorities and powers being made subject to Him.

water baptism is called the antitype.  it came before baptism into Christ.  it was before His death and resurrection. 
note that it says in vs 21 "a response to God from a good conscience thru the resurrection of Christ".  no water needed now. it's the response of a repentant heart to God.

God's word will prove you wrong.  you do the reading and studying.

regarding 1 peter vs - he is speaking to those who were familiar with the water baptism of JTB.  he is comparing that to the baptism into Christ.  note it  uses the word 'figuratively'  and says 'it is like' baptism (as prev known).  which is why we still do the water baptism as a symbol and proclamation to all that we have been saved.

skeeter,

1 Pet 3:18-21
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We need to go though this in detail because you are missing the points that Peter is making, and also trying to make "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" nullify Peter's clear statement "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

But first you comment that Peter is speaking to those familiar with the baptism of JtB. This is not true. Peter is writing some 30 years after the death and resurrection of Christ (and the death of JtB). Moreover he is writing to Christians who will have been baptised with water in Christian baptism. Also He is writing to "To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia" not to those who would have been familiar with the baptism of JtB. Therefore it is nothing to do with the baptism of JtB. It is Christian baptism (with water) that he is referring to.

That Peter baptised with water is clear from Acts 10:47-48 when he said about Cornelius and his household ""Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ.". This baptism is with water, and it is "in the name of Jesus Christ" so not the baptism of JtB.

Now go back to Acts 2:38 'Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins'.
Note:
1. This baptism is in the name of Jesus Christ and therefore not the baptism of JtB (and why would Peter do that anyway).  This baptism is with water just as Peter had baptised Cornelius & household with water "in the name of Jesus Christ"

2. This baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.

This is the baptism that Peter is referring to in 1Pet 3:21.

With that in mind let me show you the proper understanding of what Peter writes there.

In 1Pet 3:18-19 (and previously) Peter is clearly writing about the spiritual life and salvation. Bear that in mind. Too many people look at verse 20 in a purely physical way as saving people from drowning.

Peter makes a comparison between the way Noah & family were saved and baptism. The former is the type (or pre-figuring). Baptism is the anti-type (or figure). Such comparisons do not correspond in every detail but in the important points.

Peter says they were saved through water in the sense of by water. Just as we are saved through or by the waters of baptism.

Peter clearly says eight people were saved through water. So they were saved. But in what sense?
Remember I suggested we should be looking at the spiritual meaning. The water (the flood) destroyed the world with all it's sin and iniquity.

Immediately before God tells Noah to build the Ark he explains what he is doing:
"In the eyes of God the earth was corrupt and full of lawlessness. When God saw how corrupt the earth had become, since all mortals led depraved lives on earth, he said to Noah: "I have decided to put an end to all mortals on earth; the earth is full of lawlessness because of them. So I will destroy them and all life on earth."(Gen 6:11-13).

And it saves us in a similar way, by clearing out the sin and iniquity in us because baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. As Peter goes on to say it is an appeal to God for a clear conscience - because our sins are forgiven.

Peter's comment "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" is not nullifying is previous statement, Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, but is confirming and amplifying the typology.

Further, it was not only Peter that baptised with water but Philip. In Acts 8:36-38 we have Philip baptising the Ethiopian, clearly with water.
As they travelled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptised?"
Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptised him.

Just prior to this Philip had been baptising in Samaria. So we can reasonably assume that this too was with water and distince from the batism of JtB.
..once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, men and women alike were baptized. (Acts 8:12).
As with Peter (above) note:
2. This baptism is with water.
3. This baptism is in the name of Jesus (vs 16) – so not the baptism of JtB (and why would Philip do that anyway).

Then we come to Paul. He was baptised with water:
Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16). Having sins washed away is clearly a reference to water. And note the connection of the forgiveness of sin to (water) baptism as noted previously. So Paul understands baptism as being with water and for the forgiveness of sins.

Then in Acts 19 Paul comes across 12 men at Ephesus who have only been baptised with John's baptism. He orders them to be baptised "in the name of Jesus" (verse 4). This, as I showed earlier, is baptism with water.

There are other text that indicate that baptism is with water, and for the forgiveness of sins:
"..let us approach with a sincere heart and in absolute trust, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water." (Heb 10:22
"..he saved us, ......through the water of rebirth" (Ti 3:5)

Thus Christian baptism, as practiced and taught by Peter, Philip and Paul was with water and for the forgiveness of sins. And as I showed earlier such baptism was practiced by the early Church from apostolic times onwards.

The idea that it "a symbol and proclamation to all that we have been saved." Is a recent invention and unbiblical.

A recent invention? Yes, I agree.  It is certainly true that our friends who are adherents of other Christian sects do that all the time with the things that are mentioned in the Scriptures.

[skeeter]

skeeter,

1 Pet 3:18-21
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We need to go though this in detail because you are missing the points that Peter is making, and also trying to make "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" nullify Peter's clear statement "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

But first you comment that Peter is speaking to those familiar with the baptism of JtB. This is not true. Peter is writing some 30 years after the death and resurrection of Christ (and the death of JtB). Moreover he is writing to Christians who will have been baptised with water in Christian baptism. Also He is writing to "To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia" not to those who would have been familiar with the baptism of JtB. Therefore it is nothing to do with the baptism of JtB. It is Christian baptism (with water) that he is referring to.

That Peter baptised with water is clear from Acts 10:47-48 when he said about Cornelius and his household ""Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ.". This baptism is with water, and it is "in the name of Jesus Christ" so not the baptism of JtB.

...

and again, if they've already received the Holy Spirit,  they are already saved.

[winsome]

skeeter,

1 Pet 3:18-21
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We need to go though this in detail because you are missing the points that Peter is making, and also trying to make "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" nullify Peter's clear statement "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

But first you comment that Peter is speaking to those familiar with the baptism of JtB. This is not true. Peter is writing some 30 years after the death and resurrection of Christ (and the death of JtB). Moreover he is writing to Christians who will have been baptised with water in Christian baptism. Also He is writing to "To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia" not to those who would have been familiar with the baptism of JtB. Therefore it is nothing to do with the baptism of JtB. It is Christian baptism (with water) that he is referring to.

That Peter baptised with water is clear from Acts 10:47-48 when he said about Cornelius and his household ""Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ.". This baptism is with water, and it is "in the name of Jesus Christ" so not the baptism of JtB.

...

and again, if they've already received the Holy Spirit,  they are already saved.

Skeeter,

My post covered:
a) a proper understanding of the typology of 1 Pet 3:20-21
b) a demonstration that 'baptism' in the New Testament is baptism with water.

It also demonstrated that Peter, Philip and Paul practiced baptism with water, and that baptism (which we may call Christian baptism) was in the name of Jesus and for the forgiveness of sins.

It was not concerned with how, why or when Cornelius was saved.

If you accept my explanation of 1Pet 3:20-21, and accept my points about baptism with water, and Christian baptism then we can move on to Cornelius.

If not then please explain what you consider in error in my explanation rather than jumping off into another topic.

[mclees8]

skeeter,

1 Pet 3:18-21
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We need to go though this in detail because you are missing the points that Peter is making, and also trying to make "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" nullify Peter's clear statement "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

But first you comment that Peter is speaking to those familiar with the baptism of JtB. This is not true. Peter is writing some 30 years after the death and resurrection of Christ (and the death of JtB). Moreover he is writing to Christians who will have been baptised with water in Christian baptism. Also He is writing to "To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia" not to those who would have been familiar with the baptism of JtB. Therefore it is nothing to do with the baptism of JtB. It is Christian baptism (with water) that he is referring to.

That Peter baptised with water is clear from Acts 10:47-48 when he said about Cornelius and his household ""Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ.". This baptism is with water, and it is "in the name of Jesus Christ" so not the baptism of JtB.

...

and again, if they've already received the Holy Spirit,  they are already saved.

Skeeter,

My post covered:
a) a proper understanding of the typology of 1 Pet 3:20-21
b) a demonstration that 'baptism' in the New Testament is baptism with water.

It also demonstrated that Peter, Philip and Paul practiced baptism with water, and that baptism (which we may call Christian baptism) was in the name of Jesus and for the forgiveness of sins.

It was not concerned with how, why or when Cornelius was saved.

If you accept my explanation of 1Pet 3:20-21, and accept my points about baptism with water, and Christian baptism then we can move on to Cornelius.

If not then please explain what you consider in error in my explanation rather than jumping off into another topic.

Skeeter is right.  The Gospel has to have already been preached to them and received the gift of salvation with a heart already stirred to repentance even before they follow the command to be water Baptized

You truly don't understand the love and compassion of Christ in this matter by the one who knows the heart of all men. You legalists put Christ into your box of laws and rules and keep the keys of it.

[skeeter]

skeeter,

1 Pet 3:18-21
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We need to go though this in detail because you are missing the points that Peter is making, and also trying to make "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" nullify Peter's clear statement "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

But first you comment that Peter is speaking to those familiar with the baptism of JtB. This is not true. Peter is writing some 30 years after the death and resurrection of Christ (and the death of JtB). Moreover he is writing to Christians who will have been baptised with water in Christian baptism. Also He is writing to "To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia" not to those who would have been familiar with the baptism of JtB. Therefore it is nothing to do with the baptism of JtB. It is Christian baptism (with water) that he is referring to.

That Peter baptised with water is clear from Acts 10:47-48 when he said about Cornelius and his household ""Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ.". This baptism is with water, and it is "in the name of Jesus Christ" so not the baptism of JtB.

...

and again, if they've already received the Holy Spirit,  they are already saved.

Skeeter,

My post covered:
a) a proper understanding of the typology of 1 Pet 3:20-21
b) a demonstration that 'baptism' in the New Testament is baptism with water.

It also demonstrated that Peter, Philip and Paul practiced baptism with water, and that baptism (which we may call Christian baptism) was in the name of Jesus and for the forgiveness of sins.

It was not concerned with how, why or when Cornelius was saved.

If you accept my explanation of 1Pet 3:20-21, and accept my points about baptism with water, and Christian baptism then we can move on to Cornelius.

If not then please explain what you consider in error in my explanation rather than jumping off into another topic.

well, I surely don't agree with you and I've posted that several times.  is there something else you're not understanding?  like the Holy Spirit doesn't just descend on the unsaved? unless it is to save them...

you didn't even make it thru the verse(s) on Peter...

before you post about Paul, you might want to read what he does say about it.

[winsome]

skeeter,

1 Pet 3:18-21
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We need to go though this in detail because you are missing the points that Peter is making, and also trying to make "not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" nullify Peter's clear statement "Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you"

But first you comment that Peter is speaking to those familiar with the baptism of JtB. This is not true. Peter is writing some 30 years after the death and resurrection of Christ (and the death of JtB). Moreover he is writing to Christians who will have been baptised with water in Christian baptism. Also He is writing to "To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappado′cia, Asia, and Bithyn′ia" not to those who would have been familiar with the baptism of JtB. Therefore it is nothing to do with the baptism of JtB. It is Christian baptism (with water) that he is referring to.

That Peter baptised with water is clear from Acts 10:47-48 when he said about Cornelius and his household ""Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized "in the name of Jesus Christ.". This baptism is with water, and it is "in the name of Jesus Christ" so not the baptism of JtB.

...

and again, if they've already received the Holy Spirit,  they are already saved.

Skeeter,

My post covered:
a) a proper understanding of the typology of 1 Pet 3:20-21
b) a demonstration that 'baptism' in the New Testament is baptism with water.

It also demonstrated that Peter, Philip and Paul practiced baptism with water, and that baptism (which we may call Christian baptism) was in the name of Jesus and for the forgiveness of sins.

It was not concerned with how, why or when Cornelius was saved.

If you accept my explanation of 1Pet 3:20-21, and accept my points about baptism with water, and Christian baptism then we can move on to Cornelius.

If not then please explain what you consider in error in my explanation rather than jumping off into another topic.

well, I surely don't agree with you and I've posted that several times.  is there something else you're not understanding?  like the Holy Spirit doesn't just descend on the unsaved? unless it is to save them...

you didn't even make it thru the verse(s) on Peter...

before you post about Paul, you might want to read what he does say about it.

You are just prevaricating. I gave you a clear argument taking you through scripture. You haven't answered my points before because I haven't posted a detailed explanation before.

The truth is that you have no answer. First you try and divert off into a different topic rather than answer. Now you prevaricate and just say you don't agree.

[winsome]

You truly don't understand the love and compassion of Christ in this matter by the one who knows the heart of all men. You legalists put Christ into your box of laws and rules and keep the keys of it.

Have you anything constructive to add to this discussion or are you just here to throw insults around?

[skeeter]

Skeeter,

My post covered:
a) a proper understanding of the typology of 1 Pet 3:20-21
b) a demonstration that 'baptism' in the New Testament is baptism with water.

It also demonstrated that Peter, Philip and Paul practiced baptism with water, and that baptism (which we may call Christian baptism) was in the name of Jesus and for the forgiveness of sins.

It was not concerned with how, why or when Cornelius was saved.

If you accept my explanation of 1Pet 3:20-21, and accept my points about baptism with water, and Christian baptism then we can move on to Cornelius.

If not then please explain what you consider in error in my explanation rather than jumping off into another topic.

well, I surely don't agree with you and I've posted that several times.  is there something else you're not understanding?  like the Holy Spirit doesn't just descend on the unsaved? unless it is to save them...

you didn't even make it thru the verse(s) on Peter...

before you post about Paul, you might want to read what he does say about it.

You are just prevaricating.

I gave you a clear argument taking you through scripture. You haven't answered my points before because I haven't posted a detailed explanation before.

The truth is that you have no answer. First you try and divert off into a different topic rather than answer. Now you prevaricate and just say you don't agree.

no real reply from  you?  you accuse me of being evasive?  or were you flat out calling me a liar?

you gave a clear argument? clear as mud - and wrong.

why do you think I need detailed info from you on it? I'm not new to this topic.  you haven't posted some great revelation on it.

what different topic did  I divert to?

darn toot'n I don't agree with false teaching!

[skeeter]

You truly don't understand the love and compassion of Christ in this matter by the one who knows the heart of all men. You legalists put Christ into your box of laws and rules and keep the keys of it.

Have you anything constructive to add to this discussion or are you just here to throw insults around?

the one here that I see being insulting, is you.

[winsome]

Skeeter,

My post covered:
a) a proper understanding of the typology of 1 Pet 3:20-21
b) a demonstration that 'baptism' in the New Testament is baptism with water.

It also demonstrated that Peter, Philip and Paul practiced baptism with water, and that baptism (which we may call Christian baptism) was in the name of Jesus and for the forgiveness of sins.

It was not concerned with how, why or when Cornelius was saved.

If you accept my explanation of 1Pet 3:20-21, and accept my points about baptism with water, and Christian baptism then we can move on to Cornelius.

If not then please explain what you consider in error in my explanation rather than jumping off into another topic.

well, I surely don't agree with you and I've posted that several times.  is there something else you're not understanding?  like the Holy Spirit doesn't just descend on the unsaved? unless it is to save them...

you didn't even make it thru the verse(s) on Peter...

before you post about Paul, you might want to read what he does say about it.

You are just prevaricating.

I gave you a clear argument taking you through scripture. You haven't answered my points before because I haven't posted a detailed explanation before.

The truth is that you have no answer. First you try and divert off into a different topic rather than answer. Now you prevaricate and just say you don't agree.

no real reply from  you?  you accuse me of being evasive?  or were you flat out calling me a liar?

you gave a clear argument? clear as mud - and wrong.

why do you think I need detailed info from you on it? I'm not new to this topic.  you haven't posted some great revelation on it.

what different topic did  I divert to?

darn toot'n I don't agree with false teaching!

Ok, I get the message. You have no intention of discussing the topic.

God bless

[mclees8]

You truly don't understand the love and compassion of Christ in this matter by the one who knows the heart of all men. You legalists put Christ into your box of laws and rules and keep the keys of it.

Have you anything constructive to add to this discussion or are you just here to throw insults around?

Im sorry if you are offended but I said the truth.   You are a legalist but you are not alone, your comrades here are legalists also. Your church is legalist. Your interpretations come from legalist theology and thinking.   Until you understand love and compassion that crosses lines to the heart you will keep right on being legalistic.