Born again......adults

[LexKnight]

You shot yourself in the foot there, Ladonia. Ever read Galatians? Paul made it clear those who practiced such as a manner of receiving favor are in grave error. Timothy, for example, was only circumcise to not give the Jews a reason to incite anything. Beside, they constantly accused Him of breaking the sabbath.

[skeeter]

These are papal mass pictures.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/28/article-0-1B08EAB6000005DC-324_964x721.jpg

This is how the last supper is invisioned
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg

Please note the difference.  one is done in grandeur and the other is very common. You say your ideals go back to the original church. But the original church was born in humility and popes and bishops are surrounded in grandeur and lavish robes and hates , and rituals

Yes, yes, we know about how you feel about what our clergy wear and this all has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. As for rituals, hey if certain rituals were okay for Jesus to follow, why are they somehow wrong for us? Here are a few that Our lord participated in.
1. Circumcision
2. Presented as a newborn at the Temple.
3. Presented once again when He became of age.
4. He kept the Sabbath and attended Jewish worship services.
5. He observed all the Jewish Holy days and festivals.
6. He most likely ate only ritually butchered and Jewish approved foods. (At least until He began His ministry)
7. And after He died, His Body was prepared for burial in the appropriate Jewish manner.

So you see, the truth is for Jesus it was one ritual after another. They are not bad or evil, just a part of everyday religious life.

Jesus was a Jew,  are you?

not sure who has anything against most of those anyway.

it's the rituals the RCC has  and the way they do them.

you all consider Peter the head of your church...so where in the NT does it tell us about him putting on magnificent robes and hats to lead others in a ritual.  did he do that to baptize people?  did he carry a large ball of incense and swing at people?  Did he carry a large pole with a crucifix attached to the top of it?

did anyone in the NT carry a statue of Mary down the road to the house where they were going to meet together?  with a crown of flowers on her head ?

[winsome]

You shot yourself in the foot there, Ladonia. Ever read Galatians? Paul made it clear those who practiced such as a manner of receiving favor are in grave error. Timothy, for example, was only circumcise to not give the Jews a reason to incite anything. Beside, they constantly accused Him of breaking the sabbath.

Where in Galatians?-

Chapter and verse please.

[winsome]

These are papal mass pictures.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/28/article-0-1B08EAB6000005DC-324_964x721.jpg

This is how the last supper is invisioned
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg

Please note the difference.  one is done in grandeur and the other is very common. You say your ideals go back to the original church. But the original church was born in humility and popes and bishops are surrounded in grandeur and lavish robes and hates , and rituals

Yes, yes, we know about how you feel about what our clergy wear and this all has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. As for rituals, hey if certain rituals were okay for Jesus to follow, why are they somehow wrong for us? Here are a few that Our lord participated in.
1. Circumcision
2. Presented as a newborn at the Temple.
3. Presented once again when He became of age.
4. He kept the Sabbath and attended Jewish worship services.
5. He observed all the Jewish Holy days and festivals.
6. He most likely ate only ritually butchered and Jewish approved foods. (At least until He began His ministry)
7. And after He died, His Body was prepared for burial in the appropriate Jewish manner.

So you see, the truth is for Jesus it was one ritual after another. They are not bad or evil, just a part of everyday religious life.

Jesus was a Jew,  are you?

not sure who has anything against most of those anyway.

it's the rituals the RCC has  and the way they do them.

you all consider Peter the head of your church...so where in the NT does it tell us about him putting on magnificent robes and hats to lead others in a ritual.  did he do that to baptize people?  did he carry a large ball of incense and swing at people?  Did he carry a large pole with a crucifix attached to the top of it?

did anyone in the NT carry a statue of Mary down the road to the house where they were going to meet together?  with a crown of flowers on her head ?

Anyone in the NT do altar calls?

[LexKnight]

It's not a single chapter and verse, it's one of the major things Paul dealt with in the book itself.

[winsome]

It's not a single chapter and verse, it's one of the major things Paul dealt with in the book itself.

So I just have your word for it.

No evidence whatsoever.

[LexKnight]

It's not a single chapter and verse, it's one of the major things Paul dealt with in the book itself.

So I just have your word for it.

No evidence whatsoever.

?

You have a bible, don't you?

[Ladonia]

These are papal mass pictures.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/28/article-0-1B08EAB6000005DC-324_964x721.jpg

This is how the last supper is invisioned
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg

Please note the difference.  one is done in grandeur and the other is very common. You say your ideals go back to the original church. But the original church was born in humility and popes and bishops are surrounded in grandeur and lavish robes and hates , and rituals

Yes, yes, we know about how you feel about what our clergy wear and this all has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. As for rituals, hey if certain rituals were okay for Jesus to follow, why are they somehow wrong for us? Here are a few that Our lord participated in.
1. Circumcision
2. Presented as a newborn at the Temple.
3. Presented once again when He became of age.
4. He kept the Sabbath and attended Jewish worship services.
5. He observed all the Jewish Holy days and festivals.
6. He most likely ate only ritually butchered and Jewish approved foods. (At least until He began His ministry)
7. And after He died, His Body was prepared for burial in the appropriate Jewish manner.

So you see, the truth is for Jesus it was one ritual after another. They are not bad or evil, just a part of everyday religious life.

Jesus was a Jew,  are you?

not sure who has anything against most of those anyway.

it's the rituals the RCC has  and the way they do them.

you all consider Peter the head of your church...so where in the NT does it tell us about him putting on magnificent robes and hats to lead others in a ritual.  did he do that to baptize people?  did he carry a large ball of incense and swing at people?  Did he carry a large pole with a crucifix attached to the top of it?

did anyone in the NT carry a statue of Mary down the road to the house where they were going to meet together?  with a crown of flowers on her head ?

Anyone in the NT do altar calls?

Or use grape juice and crackers in lieu of unleavened bread and wine.

[winsome]

It's not a single chapter and verse, it's one of the major things Paul dealt with in the book itself.

So I just have your word for it.

No evidence whatsoever.

?

You have a bible, don't you?

Certainly, but When people claim the Bible says something I expect them to provide more than just saying it's in chapter x or y.

[mclees8]

These are papal mass pictures.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/28/article-0-1B08EAB6000005DC-324_964x721.jpg

This is how the last supper is invisioned
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg

Please note the difference.  one is done in grandeur and the other is very common. You say your ideals go back to the original church. But the original church was born in humility and popes and bishops are surrounded in grandeur and lavish robes and hates , and rituals

Yes, yes, we know about how you feel about what our clergy wear and this all has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. As for rituals, hey if certain rituals were okay for Jesus to follow, why are they somehow wrong for us? Here are a few that Our lord participated in.
1. Circumcision
2. Presented as a newborn at the Temple.
3. Presented once again when He became of age.
4. He kept the Sabbath and attended Jewish worship services.
5. He observed all the Jewish Holy days and festivals.
6. He most likely ate only ritually butchered and Jewish approved foods. (At least until He began His ministry)
7. And after He died, His Body was prepared for burial in the appropriate Jewish manner.

So you see, the truth is for Jesus it was one ritual after another. They are not bad or evil, just a part of everyday religious life.

Jesus was a Jew,  are you?

not sure who has anything against most of those anyway.

it's the rituals the RCC has  and the way they do them.

you all consider Peter the head of your church...so where in the NT does it tell us about him putting on magnificent robes and hats to lead others in a ritual.  did he do that to baptize people?  did he carry a large ball of incense and swing at people?  Did he carry a large pole with a crucifix attached to the top of it?

did anyone in the NT carry a statue of Mary down the road to the house where they were going to meet together?  with a crown of flowers on her head ?

Anyone in the NT do altar calls?

Alter calls is only a modern-day practice invented after the reformation.  The apostles did not have alter calls. Do you recall any in the book of acts?

[LexKnight]

It's not a single chapter and verse, it's one of the major things Paul dealt with in the book itself.

So I just have your word for it.

No evidence whatsoever.

?

You have a bible, don't you?

Certainly, but When people claim the Bible says something I expect them to provide more than just saying it's in chapter x or y.

It's the underlying theme of what Paul was writing to to the Galatians, as in the whole epistle. I rather not take a passage out, if you're willing to confirm then look. If not, then don't.

[winsome]

It's not a single chapter and verse, it's one of the major things Paul dealt with in the book itself.

So I just have your word for it.

No evidence whatsoever.

?

You have a bible, don't you?

Certainly, but When people claim the Bible says something I expect them to provide more than just saying it's in chapter x or y.

It's the underlying theme of what Paul was writing to to the Galatians, as in the whole epistle. I rather not take a passage out, if you're willing to confirm then look. If not, then don't.

It's up to you to prove your claim and vaguely saying "it's the underlying theme" proves nothing.

[Ladonia]

These are papal mass pictures.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/28/article-0-1B08EAB6000005DC-324_964x721.jpg

This is how the last supper is invisioned
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg

Please note the difference.  one is done in grandeur and the other is very common. You say your ideals go back to the original church. But the original church was born in humility and popes and bishops are surrounded in grandeur and lavish robes and hates , and rituals

Yes, yes, we know about how you feel about what our clergy wear and this all has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. As for rituals, hey if certain rituals were okay for Jesus to follow, why are they somehow wrong for us? Here are a few that Our lord participated in.
1. Circumcision
2. Presented as a newborn at the Temple.
3. Presented once again when He became of age.
4. He kept the Sabbath and attended Jewish worship services.
5. He observed all the Jewish Holy days and festivals.
6. He most likely ate only ritually butchered and Jewish approved foods. (At least until He began His ministry)
7. And after He died, His Body was prepared for burial in the appropriate Jewish manner.

So you see, the truth is for Jesus it was one ritual after another. They are not bad or evil, just a part of everyday religious life.

Jesus was a Jew,  are you?

not sure who has anything against most of those anyway.

it's the rituals the RCC has  and the way they do them.

you all consider Peter the head of your church...so where in the NT does it tell us about him putting on magnificent robes and hats to lead others in a ritual.  did he do that to baptize people?  did he carry a large ball of incense and swing at people?  Did he carry a large pole with a crucifix attached to the top of it?

did anyone in the NT carry a statue of Mary down the road to the house where they were going to meet together?  with a crown of flowers on her head ?

You are trying to say that we have to act the same as St. Paul did and that my friend  was a completely different time and a place. The Universal (Catholic) Christian Church a few centuries later (4th century) was different than it was in those very early days, as that same church of today is different from the one in the 4th century. What remains the same is the authority that the entity called the Universal (Catholic) Christian Church has.

It had the authority to decide which writings of the Apostles and evangelists would be contained in the canon of the Holy Scriptures back in the 300's and it has that same authority to decide the liturgical way of worship for the faithful and the particular dress of it's clergy today. I see no problem with such things at all. Like everything else that lasts in this world Christianity has evolved.  What do you want us to do, ditch everything of the modern era and wear robes, sandals, ride donkey's and worship in private homes or rented rooms? Good grief!

[mclees8]

These are papal mass pictures.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/28/article-0-1B08EAB6000005DC-324_964x721.jpg

This is how the last supper is invisioned
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg

Please note the difference.  one is done in grandeur and the other is very common. You say your ideals go back to the original church. But the original church was born in humility and popes and bishops are surrounded in grandeur and lavish robes and hates , and rituals

Yes, yes, we know about how you feel about what our clergy wear and this all has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. As for rituals, hey if certain rituals were okay for Jesus to follow, why are they somehow wrong for us? Here are a few that Our lord participated in.
1. Circumcision
2. Presented as a newborn at the Temple.
3. Presented once again when He became of age.
4. He kept the Sabbath and attended Jewish worship services.
5. He observed all the Jewish Holy days and festivals.
6. He most likely ate only ritually butchered and Jewish approved foods. (At least until He began His ministry)
7. And after He died, His Body was prepared for burial in the appropriate Jewish manner.

So you see, the truth is for Jesus it was one ritual after another. They are not bad or evil, just a part of everyday religious life.

Jesus was a Jew,  are you?

not sure who has anything against most of those anyway.

it's the rituals the RCC has  and the way they do them.

you all consider Peter the head of your church...so where in the NT does it tell us about him putting on magnificent robes and hats to lead others in a ritual.  did he do that to baptize people?  did he carry a large ball of incense and swing at people?  Did he carry a large pole with a crucifix attached to the top of it?

did anyone in the NT carry a statue of Mary down the road to the house where they were going to meet together?  with a crown of flowers on her head ?

You are trying to say that we have to act the same as St. Paul did and that my friend  was a completely different time and a place. The Universal (Catholic) Christian Church a few centuries later (4th century) was different than it was in those very early days, as that same church of today is different from the one in the 4th century. What remains the same is the authority that the entity called the Universal (Catholic) Christian Church has.

It had the authority to decide which writings of the Apostles and evangelists would be contained in the canon of the Holy Scriptures back in the 300's and it has that same authority to decide the liturgical way of worship for the faithful and the particular dress of it's clergy today. I see no problem with such things at all. Like everything else that lasts in this world Christianity has evolved.  What do you want us to do, ditch everything of the modern era and wear robes, sandals, ride donkey's and worship in private homes or rented rooms? Good grief!

There's a little more to it than that.    There is Character of humility. It has been argued many times the strange likness of Color and trinkets of gold in Rev 17 almost perfect match and she is called a hore.  Did the lord want his church to evolve to proud arrogant and showy costumes and ambitions? Yes stange thinking indeed.

[Ladonia]

You shot yourself in the foot there, Ladonia. Ever read Galatians? Paul made it clear those who practiced such as a manner of receiving favor are in grave error. Timothy, for example, was only circumcise to not give the Jews a reason to incite anything. Beside, they constantly accused Him of breaking the sabbath.

How so? I was responding to the word "ritual", with the OP seeming to say that rituals are something bad and I don't think they are. I was merely pointing out that Jesus followed many rituals himself. Let me ask you, when a Christian is buried according to a set procedure (no matter which one a particular Christian faith tradition uses) is that bad? If your weekly worship service follows the same pattern is that unacceptable also? Those things that we do over and over again are rituals and I don't think doing them  runs afoul of anything that is written in the Scriptures.

[Ladonia]

These are papal mass pictures.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/28/article-0-1B08EAB6000005DC-324_964x721.jpg

This is how the last supper is invisioned
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg

Please note the difference.  one is done in grandeur and the other is very common. You say your ideals go back to the original church. But the original church was born in humility and popes and bishops are surrounded in grandeur and lavish robes and hates , and rituals

Yes, yes, we know about how you feel about what our clergy wear and this all has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. As for rituals, hey if certain rituals were okay for Jesus to follow, why are they somehow wrong for us? Here are a few that Our lord participated in.
1. Circumcision
2. Presented as a newborn at the Temple.
3. Presented once again when He became of age.
4. He kept the Sabbath and attended Jewish worship services.
5. He observed all the Jewish Holy days and festivals.
6. He most likely ate only ritually butchered and Jewish approved foods. (At least until He began His ministry)
7. And after He died, His Body was prepared for burial in the appropriate Jewish manner.

So you see, the truth is for Jesus it was one ritual after another. They are not bad or evil, just a part of everyday religious life.

Jesus was a Jew,  are you?

not sure who has anything against most of those anyway.

it's the rituals the RCC has  and the way they do them.

you all consider Peter the head of your church...so where in the NT does it tell us about him putting on magnificent robes and hats to lead others in a ritual.  did he do that to baptize people?  did he carry a large ball of incense and swing at people?  Did he carry a large pole with a crucifix attached to the top of it?

did anyone in the NT carry a statue of Mary down the road to the house where they were going to meet together?  with a crown of flowers on her head ?

You are trying to say that we have to act the same as St. Paul did and that my friend  was a completely different time and a place. The Universal (Catholic) Christian Church a few centuries later (4th century) was different than it was in those very early days, as that same church of today is different from the one in the 4th century. What remains the same is the authority that the entity called the Universal (Catholic) Christian Church has.

It had the authority to decide which writings of the Apostles and evangelists would be contained in the canon of the Holy Scriptures back in the 300's and it has that same authority to decide the liturgical way of worship for the faithful and the particular dress of it's clergy today. I see no problem with such things at all. Like everything else that lasts in this world Christianity has evolved.  What do you want us to do, ditch everything of the modern era and wear robes, sandals, ride donkey's and worship in private homes or rented rooms? Good grief!

There's a little more to it than that.    There is Character of humility. It has been argued many times the strange likness of Color and trinkets of gold in Rev 17 almost perfect match and she is called a hore.  Did the lord want his church to evolve to proud arrogant and showy costumes and ambitions? Yes stange thinking indeed.

And since you brought up Revelations, what about the "New Jerusalem" adorned with every jewel, pearls, gold and whatnot. How does that reckon with your supposed "character of humility"? Sounds like God wants the best and most beautiful things that are available if you ask me. So no, that is not as "strange thinking" as you would have us believe.

[LexKnight]

The implication (and correct me if I'm wrong) I got from you was Jesus was okay with those rituals, of course that being a support of rituals in the Catholic Church. Except they constantly accused him of breaking the Sabbath, He went to the synagogues because that's where the people were, no evidence in any of the Gospels of Him celebrating the feasts other than attending Jerusalem (again, please correct me if I'm wrong on this), and He made His feelings concerning circumcision very clear (through one of His apostles, but still from Him).

I do agree a lot of it was part of everyday life, as we in America have our own customs and practices we've grown up with. But there's a major difference between everyday customs in a culture and dogmatic practices in the Assemblies. If one is doing it simply because it's his culture and it doesn't oppose the Lord, it's a neutral thing and nothing is wrong with it. If one is doing it with the mindset of pleasing the Lord or walking in His favor... that's what Paul was addressing in his epistle to the brethren in Galatia, destroying that notion. To put it frankly, God is not a God of rituals.

[LexKnight]

And since you brought up Revelations, what about the "New Jerusalem" adorned with every jewel, pearls, gold and whatnot. How does that reckon with your supposed "character of humility"? Sounds like God wants the best and most beautiful things that are available if you ask me. So no, that is not as "strange thinking" as you would have us believe.

I don't mean to impose, but if I may answer:

Before destruction a man's heart is haughty, but humility comes before honor.

[Ladonia]

The implication (and correct me if I'm wrong) I got from you was Jesus was okay with those rituals, of course that being a support of rituals in the Catholic Church. Except they constantly accused him of breaking the Sabbath, He went to the synagogues because that's where the people were, no evidence in any of the Gospels of Him celebrating the feasts other than attending Jerusalem (again, please correct me if I'm wrong on this), and He made His feelings concerning circumcision very clear (through one of His apostles, but still from Him).

I do agree a lot of it was part of everyday life, as we in America have our own customs and practices we've grown up with. But there's a major difference between everyday customs in a culture and dogmatic practices in the Assemblies. If one is doing it simply because it's his culture and it doesn't oppose the Lord, it's a neutral thing and nothing is wrong with it. If one is doing it with the mindset of pleasing the Lord or walking in His favor... that's what Paul was addressing in his epistle to the brethren in Galatia, destroying that notion. To put it frankly, God is not a God of rituals.

The Scriptures tell us  that everything that occurred in Jesus's life was not written about, so we are to somehow come to the conclusion that as a Jew he didn't do all the things a Jewish man would normally do?  I would say that the many things he did that violated the Old Law only happened after he started his ministry. Until then, he was most likely quite the ordinary religious Jew.
.

Yes, I understand what St. Paul was talking about in Galatians, he was the consummate evangelist. A good part of his exhortation there was for the people to stop sinning and and get with the program. It was always about the putting away of the Old Law and being freed by Christ.

As for the rituals, I speak not only in support of those in the Catholic Church, but in other Christian faith traditions as well.  No, I don't thing Jesus would have a big problem with them.

[AVZ]

It's not a single chapter and verse, it's one of the major things Paul dealt with in the book itself.

So I just have your word for it.

No evidence whatsoever.

?

You have a bible, don't you?

Certainly, but When people claim the Bible says something I expect them to provide more than just saying it's in chapter x or y.

It's the underlying theme of what Paul was writing to to the Galatians, as in the whole epistle. I rather not take a passage out, if you're willing to confirm then look. If not, then don't.

It's up to you to prove your claim and vaguely saying "it's the underlying theme" proves nothing.

Here is the problem with proof in the RCC.
When a person questions certain theologies and practices of the RCC, undeniable proof is demanded...but when the RCC announces things like Papal infallibility, existence of Purgatory or bodily ascension of Mary...proof is not required at all and a word is all it takes.

[AVZ]

You shot yourself in the foot there, Ladonia. Ever read Galatians? Paul made it clear those who practiced such as a manner of receiving favor are in grave error. Timothy, for example, was only circumcise to not give the Jews a reason to incite anything. Beside, they constantly accused Him of breaking the sabbath.

How so? I was responding to the word "ritual", with the OP seeming to say that rituals are something bad and I don't think they are. I was merely pointing out that Jesus followed many rituals himself. Let me ask you, when a Christian is buried according to a set procedure (no matter which one a particular Christian faith tradition uses) is that bad? If your weekly worship service follows the same pattern is that unacceptable also? Those things that we do over and over again are rituals and I don't think doing them  runs afoul of anything that is written in the Scriptures.

Rituals are not necessarily bad, you are right. But you can't quality the value of a ritual just because Jesus did them. Scripture is pretty clear that rituals do not save people, it is a matter of attitude.
Jesus could have done any ritual He liked, or rejected any ritual He wanted because He was sinless. For Him to go to a ritual did not add to His righteousness. And neither do rituals add any value to our righteousness.

Problematic in RCC theology is that there are rituals that by themselves are perceived to have salvic value.
For example baptism. Doing the ritual itself obtains grace and merits. That's why Catholics are told to go to mass every week, it earns them merits.
How important are rituals in the RCC? Very.
For example Holy Communion could not be exercised without the ritual. If tomorrow all the priests in the RCC would succumb to a disease...Holy Communion can no longer be done, and neither can baptism or penance because the rituals can not be executed.

To hook in on the burial remark. Imagine a Catholic dying without having received his Last Rites...that's a huge problem.
Yes we do burials according to rituals, but the fact is that if the ritual cannot be exercised the person still gets buried.
Unlike many habits in the RCC, if the ritual cannot be executed...a Catholic has a huge problem because he will miss out of grace and merits.

[Hexalpa]

These are papal mass pictures.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/28/article-0-1B08EAB6000005DC-324_964x721.jpg

This is how the last supper is invisioned
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg

Please note the difference.  one is done in grandeur and the other is very common. You say your ideals go back to the original church. But the original church was born in humility and popes and bishops are surrounded in grandeur and lavish robes and hates , and rituals

Yes, yes, we know about how you feel about what our clergy wear and this all has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. As for rituals, hey if certain rituals were okay for Jesus to follow, why are they somehow wrong for us? Here are a few that Our lord participated in.
1. Circumcision
2. Presented as a newborn at the Temple.
3. Presented once again when He became of age.
4. He kept the Sabbath and attended Jewish worship services.
5. He observed all the Jewish Holy days and festivals.
6. He most likely ate only ritually butchered and Jewish approved foods. (At least until He began His ministry)
7. And after He died, His Body was prepared for burial in the appropriate Jewish manner.

So you see, the truth is for Jesus it was one ritual after another. They are not bad or evil, just a part of everyday religious life.

Jesus was a Jew,  are you?

not sure who has anything against most of those anyway.

it's the rituals the RCC has  and the way they do them.

you all consider Peter the head of your church...so where in the NT does it tell us about him putting on magnificent robes and hats to lead others in a ritual.  did he do that to baptize people?  did he carry a large ball of incense and swing at people?  Did he carry a large pole with a crucifix attached to the top of it?

did anyone in the NT carry a statue of Mary down the road to the house where they were going to meet together?  with a crown of flowers on her head ?

Was Jesus a Jew ?
He was a Hebrew.
He was a Israelite.
A Jew ? no not really because the word Jew only came after captivity, I believe.
There is the tribes of Israel and then the tribes of ?
The word Jew only means the People of God, and Israel means the Servants of God.   

[winsome]

It's not a single chapter and verse, it's one of the major things Paul dealt with in the book itself.

So I just have your word for it.

No evidence whatsoever.

?

You have a bible, don't you?

Certainly, but When people claim the Bible says something I expect them to provide more than just saying it's in chapter x or y.

It's the underlying theme of what Paul was writing to to the Galatians, as in the whole epistle. I rather not take a passage out, if you're willing to confirm then look. If not, then don't.

It's up to you to prove your claim and vaguely saying "it's the underlying theme" proves nothing.

Here is the problem with proof in the RCC.
When a person questions certain theologies and practices of the RCC, undeniable proof is demanded...but when the RCC announces things like Papal infallibility, existence of Purgatory or bodily ascension of Mary...proof is not required at all and a word is all it takes.

Untrue. Those things have been hashed through many times and proof given. You just don't accept it.

[winsome]

 

 
Problematic in RCC theology is that there are rituals that by themselves are perceived to have salvic value.

Wrong

It's not that a ritual itself has salvific value but it is in the ritual, done in obedience to Jesus' command, that Jesus saves us.

We are saved by grace though faith (Eph 2:8).

For example baptism. Doing the ritual itself obtains grace......

It obtains grace because that is when Jesus applies the fruits of his redemption. It does not earn grace.
"Through him [Jesus] we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand (Rom 5:2)
"See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God" (Heb 12:15)

That's why Catholics are told to go to mass every week, it earns them merits.

Rubbish! This has been all gone through before.

To hook in on the burial remark. Imagine a Catholic dying without having received his Last Rites...that's a huge problem.

What is the problem?

Yes we do burials according to rituals, but the fact is that if the ritual cannot be exercised the person still gets buried.

Ditto Catholics

[Ladonia]

You shot yourself in the foot there, Ladonia. Ever read Galatians? Paul made it clear those who practiced such as a manner of receiving favor are in grave error. Timothy, for example, was only circumcise to not give the Jews a reason to incite anything. Beside, they constantly accused Him of breaking the sabbath.

How so? I was responding to the word "ritual", with the OP seeming to say that rituals are something bad and I don't think they are. I was merely pointing out that Jesus followed many rituals himself. Let me ask you, when a Christian is buried according to a set procedure (no matter which one a particular Christian faith tradition uses) is that bad? If your weekly worship service follows the same pattern is that unacceptable also? Those things that we do over and over again are rituals and I don't think doing them  runs afoul of anything that is written in the Scriptures.

Rituals are not necessarily bad, you are right. But you can't quality the value of a ritual just because Jesus did them. Scripture is pretty clear that rituals do not save people, it is a matter of attitude.
Jesus could have done any ritual He liked, or rejected any ritual He wanted because He was sinless. For Him to go to a ritual did not add to His righteousness. And neither do rituals add any value to our righteousness.

Problematic in RCC theology is that there are rituals that by themselves are perceived to have salvic value.
For example baptism. Doing the ritual itself obtains grace and merits. That's why Catholics are told to go to mass every week, it earns them merits.
How important are rituals in the RCC? Very.
For example Holy Communion could not be exercised without the ritual. If tomorrow all the priests in the RCC would succumb to a disease...Holy Communion can no longer be done, and neither can baptism or penance because the rituals can not be executed.

To hook in on the burial remark. Imagine a Catholic dying without having received his Last Rites...that's a huge problem.
Yes we do burials according to rituals, but the fact is that if the ritual cannot be exercised the person still gets buried.
Unlike many habits in the RCC, if the ritual cannot be executed...a Catholic has a huge problem because he will miss out of grace and merits.

Catholics go to Mass every week because it is a command from God that we are to gather together and worship Him one day of each week. Is this a positive for the soul, or in other words is a grace received?  You betcha!

Baptism is another command from God that one should partake of after coming to the realization that Christ is the Savior. Once again, is this another positive for the soul or grace received? You betcha!

As for not having priests and thus not having the Holy Eucharist, this is the most preposterous example I have ever read in all my time on this site. God would no more not have had those who preach Christian orthodoxy at any time than He would not have had all the prophets of old born, His Son born, or the Holy Scripures brought into being themselves.  A ridiculous, unbelieveable argument for sure.

And just where do we get these "Last Rites"? Why from the Scriptures of course! In James 5:14-15 it says: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven".

Are these last rites a requirement of salvation? No, but is is another action that is a positive and thus bestows a grace on the soul.

[mclees8]

You shot yourself in the foot there, Ladonia. Ever read Galatians? Paul made it clear those who practiced such as a manner of receiving favor are in grave error. Timothy, for example, was only circumcise to not give the Jews a reason to incite anything. Beside, they constantly accused Him of breaking the sabbath.

How so? I was responding to the word "ritual", with the OP seeming to say that rituals are something bad and I don't think they are. I was merely pointing out that Jesus followed many rituals himself. Let me ask you, when a Christian is buried according to a set procedure (no matter which one a particular Christian faith tradition uses) is that bad? If your weekly worship service follows the same pattern is that unacceptable also? Those things that we do over and over again are rituals and I don't think doing them  runs afoul of anything that is written in the Scriptures.

Rituals are not necessarily bad, you are right. But you can't quality the value of a ritual just because Jesus did them. Scripture is pretty clear that rituals do not save people, it is a matter of attitude.
Jesus could have done any ritual He liked, or rejected any ritual He wanted because He was sinless. For Him to go to a ritual did not add to His righteousness. And neither do rituals add any value to our righteousness.

Problematic in RCC theology is that there are rituals that by themselves are perceived to have salvic value.
For example baptism. Doing the ritual itself obtains grace and merits. That's why Catholics are told to go to mass every week, it earns them merits.
How important are rituals in the RCC? Very.
For example Holy Communion could not be exercised without the ritual. If tomorrow all the priests in the RCC would succumb to a disease...Holy Communion can no longer be done, and neither can baptism or penance because the rituals can not be executed.

To hook in on the burial remark. Imagine a Catholic dying without having received his Last Rites...that's a huge problem.
Yes we do burials according to rituals, but the fact is that if the ritual cannot be exercised the person still gets buried.
Unlike many habits in the RCC, if the ritual cannot be executed...a Catholic has a huge problem because he will miss out of grace and merits.

Catholics go to Mass every week because it is a command from God that we are to gather together and worship Him one day of each week. Is this a positive for the soul, or in other words is a grace received?  You betcha!

Baptism is another command from God that one should partake of after coming to the realization that Christ is the Savior. Once again, is this another positive for the soul or grace received? You betcha!

As for not having priests and thus not having the Holy Eucharist, this is the most preposterous example I have ever read in all my time on this site. God would no more not have had those who preach Christian orthodoxy at any time than He would not have had all the prophets of old born, His Son born, or the Holy Scripures brought into being themselves.  A ridiculous, unbelieveable argument for sure.

And just where do we get these "Last Rites"? Why from the Scriptures of course! In James 5:14-15 it says: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven".

Are these last rites a requirement of salvation? No, but is is another action that is a positive and thus bestows a grace on the soul.

Bestows grace on the soul? Did they do all this under the apostles? Was not grace bestowed when the deceased first believed and was given the free gift of salvation. We only show respect to our brother that has now gone to be with His Lord.  he already had grace bestowed on him

[mclees8]

These are papal mass pictures.



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/28/article-0-1B08EAB6000005DC-324_964x721.jpg

This is how the last supper is invisioned
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Last_Supper_(copy)_-_WGA12732.jpg

Please note the difference.  one is done in grandeur and the other is very common. You say your ideals go back to the original church. But the original church was born in humility and popes and bishops are surrounded in grandeur and lavish robes and hates , and rituals

Yes, yes, we know about how you feel about what our clergy wear and this all has been thoroughly discussed in previous threads. As for rituals, hey if certain rituals were okay for Jesus to follow, why are they somehow wrong for us? Here are a few that Our lord participated in.
1. Circumcision
2. Presented as a newborn at the Temple.
3. Presented once again when He became of age.
4. He kept the Sabbath and attended Jewish worship services.
5. He observed all the Jewish Holy days and festivals.
6. He most likely ate only ritually butchered and Jewish approved foods. (At least until He began His ministry)
7. And after He died, His Body was prepared for burial in the appropriate Jewish manner.

So you see, the truth is for Jesus it was one ritual after another. They are not bad or evil, just a part of everyday religious life.

Jesus was a Jew,  are you?

not sure who has anything against most of those anyway.

it's the rituals the RCC has  and the way they do them.

you all consider Peter the head of your church...so where in the NT does it tell us about him putting on magnificent robes and hats to lead others in a ritual.  did he do that to baptize people?  did he carry a large ball of incense and swing at people?  Did he carry a large pole with a crucifix attached to the top of it?

did anyone in the NT carry a statue of Mary down the road to the house where they were going to meet together?  with a crown of flowers on her head ?

You are trying to say that we have to act the same as St. Paul did and that my friend  was a completely different time and a place. The Universal (Catholic) Christian Church a few centuries later (4th century) was different than it was in those very early days, as that same church of today is different from the one in the 4th century. What remains the same is the authority that the entity called the Universal (Catholic) Christian Church has.

It had the authority to decide which writings of the Apostles and evangelists would be contained in the canon of the Holy Scriptures back in the 300's and it has that same authority to decide the liturgical way of worship for the faithful and the particular dress of it's clergy today. I see no problem with such things at all. Like everything else that lasts in this world Christianity has evolved.  What do you want us to do, ditch everything of the modern era and wear robes, sandals, ride donkey's and worship in private homes or rented rooms? Good grief!

There's a little more to it than that.    There is Character of humility. It has been argued many times the strange likness of Color and trinkets of gold in Rev 17 almost perfect match and she is called a hore.  Did the lord want his church to evolve to proud arrogant and showy costumes and ambitions? Yes stange thinking indeed.

And since you brought up Revelations, what about the "New Jerusalem" adorned with every jewel, pearls, gold and whatnot. How does that reckon with your supposed "character of humility"? Sounds like God wants the best and most beautiful things that are available if you ask me. So no, that is not as "strange thinking" as you would have us believe.

Good point.  Might I ask from where the New Jerusalem is coming down from.  Will not God be with people there.  Where is it written that while we await this heavenly city the leaders of the church were to be exalted above all others with gold and pearls and every kind of gem. to be seen for there position with pride of titles.  New Testament reference please

[mclees8]

What happened here. The silence is deafening.   

[winsome]

What happened here. The silence is deafening.   

Perhaps no-one wants to go round the Robes and Rings thing YET AGAIN!

But if you want to wander down memory lane - http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/catholic-forum/of-robes-and-rings-and-other-things/msg1054897105/#msg1054897105

[skeeter]

And since you brought up Revelations, what about the "New Jerusalem" adorned with every jewel, pearls, gold and whatnot. How does that reckon with your supposed "character of humility"? Sounds like God wants the best and most beautiful things that are available if you ask me. So no, that is not as "strange thinking" as you would have us believe.

where is this in Rev?  plz post the citation for it... thx.

[Ladonia]

And since you brought up Revelations, what about the "New Jerusalem" adorned with every jewel, pearls, gold and whatnot. How does that reckon with your supposed "character of humility"? Sounds like God wants the best and most beautiful things that are available if you ask me. So no, that is not as "strange thinking" as you would have us believe.

where is this in Rev?  plz post the citation for it... thx.

Start at Rev 21-2 and then read to Rev 21: 18 - 20.

[skeeter]

And since you brought up Revelations, what about the "New Jerusalem" adorned with every jewel, pearls, gold and whatnot. How does that reckon with your supposed "character of humility"? Sounds like God wants the best and most beautiful things that are available if you ask me. So no, that is not as "strange thinking" as you would have us believe.

where is this in Rev?  plz post the citation for it... thx.

Start at Rev 21-2 and then read to Rev 21: 18 - 20.

Revelation 21

2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

very interesting - you think God needs to be humble?  you think He isn't deserving of the best of everything?  He who made it all?

[Ladonia]

And since you brought up Revelations, what about the "New Jerusalem" adorned with every jewel, pearls, gold and whatnot. How does that reckon with your supposed "character of humility"? Sounds like God wants the best and most beautiful things that are available if you ask me. So no, that is not as "strange thinking" as you would have us believe.

where is this in Rev?  plz post the citation for it... thx.

Start at Rev 21-2 and then read to Rev 21: 18 - 20.

Revelation 21

2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal. 17 Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

very interesting - you think God needs to be humble?  you think He isn't deserving of the best of everything?  He who made it all?

No, not at all. I agree, God deserves the best, so that is why some of our church's are very beautiful and our clergy likewise wear beautiful robes. It's not to make us mere humans feel more important, but done for the glory of God. These are some of the things that we orthodox believes do to emulate the Scriptures and is something that our friend Mclees simply cannot understand.

[LexKnight]

But Ladonia, the prophets revealed even the Lord, before His resurrection, had no beauty or appearance that would attract people to Him. The beautifying of your assemblies is antithetical to the testimony of the Lord.

[winsome]

But Ladonia, the prophets revealed even the Lord, before His resurrection, had no beauty or appearance that would attract people to Him. The beautifying of your assemblies is antithetical to the testimony of the Lord.

How does that nullify Rev 21-2 & Rev 21: 18 - 20?

Then read Rev 1:12-16
"Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden girdle round his breast; his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; his eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined as in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters; in his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth issued a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength."

No beauty or appearance that would attract people to Him?