Salvation by Works?

[AVZ]

Catholic justification indeed is a legal system. That's why it cannot be true.

Sorry, but you can get away with a claim like that.

It's Protestantism that is the legal system
Under Protestantism:
Justification is legally imputed.
Righteousness is legally imputed.
Jesus paid the legal penalty instead of us.

Completely incorrect.

If anyone of us would appeal to the Divine legal system, all of us would be doomed.
If God would give us what we deserve, all of us will go to hell.
It is NOT the legal system we appeal to...we appeal to God's mercy.
We appeal to God giving us what we do NOT deserve. That's no longer justice...that's mercy.

So when a person dies, he will face God completely empty-handed. All he brings is his faith (which is NOT a work).
Then God will withhold justice from the person and give him mercy instead.


This is opposite the Catholic view, which is as follows:

When a person dies the first thing that is checked is the state the person died in.
If he died in a state of mortal sin (yes even if he is a believer) then he goes to hell.
If he died in a state of grace, he goes to purgatory.
Depending on how many merits the person gathered in his life, he will be in purgatory for a long time or a short time.

So the believer comes at the gate of purgatory carrying with him merits. Things he did when he was alive.
Based on those merits the time in purgatory is determined.

Then in purgatory the person will have to go through a cleansing process. Each process earning him more merits.
If one is lucky then he has friends and family on earth who do works and who will send the merits earned to the person so his time in purgatory is shortened.
After some time, when enough merits are gathered, the person is considered cleansed.
Once the person is cleansed, the person now is also justified.

Then in that justified state the person presents himself to God who looks at the person and notices that he is justified.
Following which God will officially declare him justified and he can enter heaven.


Now which of the above is the legal process?
The Protestant system where a believer does not get what he deserves or
The Catholic system where a believer pays the price for his disobedience through works of merits, penance and even contribution by friends and family? In the Catholic system a believer gets what he deserves because he paid the price for it.


Now to be fair, the RCC will be very quick to say that they do not exactly mean it this way and that in the end salvation is by grace through faith.
BUT if asked if therefore it is by faith alone they are equally quick to state that that is not the case as well.
If it is not by faith alone then something else is required. That something else is of course the human input into his salvation.
That human input gets judged and rewarded...hence you are on a legal system.

[AVZ]

Not to mention Luther wanted to remove James from the Canon cuz he had the audacity to say one is not justified by faith alone.

Yes, he did...and some time later he retracted that statement acknowledging he was wrong.
That's the benefit of understanding human theology is fallible. You can actually say I am sorry, I was wrong.
Contrary to some who declare their theology to be infallibly true, later figuring out it was false anyway and then have to come up with ways of escape.

But more to the point of James.
Still today James is widely misunderstood and misinterpreted, in particular in Catholic theology.

[Hexalpa]

What exactly are you claiming?
Did Christ earn merits? If yes, than God distributed merits to Himself.
And how are these merits for us if they cannot be distributed to us?

AVZ, do you believe that we are saved because of something Jesus Christ did?  Yes?  Or no?

If yes, then how is that salvation applied to us?  If not, then how are we saved?

Yes, we are saved by Christ's accomplishments on the cross.
It is Christ's righteousness that is imputed on us. We do not have a single ounce of righteousness from ourselves.
There is nothing that we can bring in that counts to our salvation.
Salvation is applied to us through grace by faith...NOT through justice!

What about Charity 1 Cor 13:13 Faith Hope and Charity, now witch is the greatest of the three.
Without Charity the soul is dead.
Charity is not Humanitarianism.
All Christians should be treated as one in Christ.

[winsome]

Catholic justification indeed is a legal system. That's why it cannot be true.

Sorry, but you can get away with a claim like that.

It's Protestantism that is the legal system
Under Protestantism:
Justification is legally imputed.
Righteousness is legally imputed.
Jesus paid the legal penalty instead of us.

Completely incorrect.

If anyone of us would appeal to the Divine legal system, all of us would be doomed.
If God would give us what we deserve, all of us will go to hell.
It is NOT the legal system we appeal to...we appeal to God's mercy.
We appeal to God giving us what we do NOT deserve. That's no longer justice...that's mercy.

So when a person dies, he will face God completely empty-handed. All he brings is his faith (which is NOT a work).
Then God will withhold justice from the person and give him mercy instead.


This is opposite the Catholic view, which is as follows:

When a person dies the first thing that is checked is the state the person died in.
If he died in a state of mortal sin (yes even if he is a believer) then he goes to hell.
If he died in a state of grace, he goes to purgatory.
Depending on how many merits the person gathered in his life, he will be in purgatory for a long time or a short time.

So the believer comes at the gate of purgatory carrying with him merits. Things he did when he was alive.
Based on those merits the time in purgatory is determined.

Then in purgatory the person will have to go through a cleansing process. Each process earning him more merits.
If one is lucky then he has friends and family on earth who do works and who will send the merits earned to the person so his time in purgatory is shortened.
After some time, when enough merits are gathered, the person is considered cleansed.
Once the person is cleansed, the person now is also justified.

Then in that justified state the person presents himself to God who looks at the person and notices that he is justified.
Following which God will officially declare him justified and he can enter heaven.


Now which of the above is the legal process?
The Protestant system where a believer does not get what he deserves or
The Catholic system where a believer pays the price for his disobedience through works of merits, penance and even contribution by friends and family? In the Catholic system a believer gets what he deserves because he paid the price for it.


Now to be fair, the RCC will be very quick to say that they do not exactly mean it this way and that in the end salvation is by grace through faith.
BUT if asked if therefore it is by faith alone they are equally quick to state that that is not the case as well.
If it is not by faith alone then something else is required. That something else is of course the human input into his salvation.
That human input gets judged and rewarded...hence you are on a legal system.

AVZ,

In reply #13 I explained that we are not on a points system. Yet you come back with the same false-hood.

Let me ask you a question:- Did Christ pay the legal penalty for our sins? Yes or No?

[AVZ]

AVZ,

In reply #13 I explained that we are not on a points system. Yet you come back with the same false-hood.

Let me ask you a question:- Did Christ pay the legal penalty for our sins? Yes or No?

Of course you are in a point system, you just don't want to call it that way.
But OK for argument sake lets say you are in a quantitative system.
See, as long as you can lose grace in full, or a little, or something in between...you talking quantity.
And if you are in purgatory and have to spend xxx amount in it whilst someone else has to do twice your time...again that is quantity.

You are also in a qualitative system.
You have different types of merits. You have super good merits, and then you have not so good merits, and you have like normal merits.
Thats quality.
Practically, you need little super good merits to go to heaven, and you need many regular merits.

Its just like collecting airmiles.

[LexKnight]

Not to mention Luther wanted to remove James from the Canon cuz he had the audacity to say one is not justified by faith alone.

Yes, he did...and some time later he retracted that statement acknowledging he was wrong.
That's the benefit of understanding human theology is fallible. You can actually say I am sorry, I was wrong.
Contrary to some who declare their theology to be infallibly true, later figuring out it was false anyway and then have to come up with ways of escape.

But more to the point of James.
Still today James is widely misunderstood and misinterpreted, in particular in Catholic theology.

But here's the thing, AVZ. James did actually say we're not justified by faith alone, but you seems very adamant that we are.

[winsome]

AVZ,

In reply #13 I explained that we are not on a points system. Yet you come back with the same false-hood.

Let me ask you a question:- Did Christ pay the legal penalty for our sins? Yes or No?

Of course you are in a point system, you just don't want to call it that way.
But OK for argument sake lets say you are in a quantitative system.
See, as long as you can lose grace in full, or a little, or something in between...you talking quantity.
And if you are in purgatory and have to spend xxx amount in it whilst someone else has to do twice your time...again that is quantity.

You are also in a qualitative system.
You have different types of merits. You have super good merits, and then you have not so good merits, and you have like normal merits.
Thats quality.
Practically, you need little super good merits to go to heaven, and you need many regular merits.

Its just like collecting airmiles.

It is not a points system or a quantitative system that gets us to heaven. What gets is to heaven is being in a state of (sanctifying) grace. You are either in a state of grace or not.

In our natural state we do not have sanctifying grace. We can only live a natural life.

To live a supernatural life we need something supernatural – sanctifying grace.

When we are baptised we are given sanctifying grace as a free gift of God. We have supernatural life. We have a personal relationship with God.

Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church. (CCC 1997)

This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature. (CCC1998)

If we die at that point we go straight to heaven. Nothing more is needed. No "points".


It's basically very simple. But what complicates this is sin.


If we commit mortal sin we lose sanctifying grace. We lose friendship with God. We are no longer capable of living a supernatural life with God in heaven.

[mclees8]

Merit as in merit badges for good works.  In scouts one gets a badge for certain achievements. How many must one have to get to heaven?

If merit is as ones good works How many must one have?   I put this question to you winsome.

Mike you promised that you wouldn't comment on this thread.

I know but I just had to ask. I asked it in the other thread but never got an answer. This is all I ask.

This is a pertinent quest to the thread and deserves an answer.  If you say salvation is by works then please answer.

[AVZ]

It is not a points system or a quantitative system that gets us to heaven. What gets is to heaven is being in a state of (sanctifying) grace. You are either in a state of grace or not.

In our natural state we do not have sanctifying grace. We can only live a natural life.

To live a supernatural life we need something supernatural – sanctifying grace.

When we are baptised we are given sanctifying grace as a free gift of God. We have supernatural life. We have a personal relationship with God.

Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church. (CCC 1997)

This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature. (CCC1998)

If we die at that point we go straight to heaven. Nothing more is needed. No "points".


It's basically very simple. But what complicates this is sin.


If we commit mortal sin we lose sanctifying grace. We lose friendship with God. We are no longer capable of living a supernatural life with God in heaven.

Look Winsome, I don't even now why you are arguing this.
The Catholic system uses merits, mortal sins which lose all grace, venial sins which lose some grace, it has purgatory with a time line...all are quantitative expressions.
Now if the system was not quantitative...it would not have these doctrines.

[winsome]

It is not a points system or a quantitative system that gets us to heaven. What gets is to heaven is being in a state of (sanctifying) grace. You are either in a state of grace or not.

In our natural state we do not have sanctifying grace. We can only live a natural life.

To live a supernatural life we need something supernatural – sanctifying grace.

When we are baptised we are given sanctifying grace as a free gift of God. We have supernatural life. We have a personal relationship with God.

Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church. (CCC 1997)

This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature. (CCC1998)

If we die at that point we go straight to heaven. Nothing more is needed. No "points".


It's basically very simple. But what complicates this is sin.


If we commit mortal sin we lose sanctifying grace. We lose friendship with God. We are no longer capable of living a supernatural life with God in heaven.

Look Winsome, I don't even now why you are arguing this.
The Catholic system uses merits, mortal sins which lose all grace, venial sins which lose some grace, it has purgatory with a time line...all are quantitative expressions.
Now if the system was not quantitative...it would not have these doctrines.

OK, show me where the Catholic Church teaches that venial sins lose some grace.


And I asked you a question which you have not aswered:  Did Christ pay the legal penalty for our sins? Yes or No?

[Catholica]

Merit as in merit badges for good works.  In scouts one gets a badge for certain achievements. How many must one have to get to heaven?

If merit is as ones good works How many must one have?   I put this question to you winsome.

Mike you promised that you wouldn't comment on this thread.

I know but I just had to ask. I asked it in the other thread but never got an answer. This is all I ask.

This is a pertinent quest to the thread and deserves an answer.  If you say salvation is by works then please answer.

Merit is nothing like merit badges, and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.

Mature questions receive answers, for future reference.

[mclees8]

Merit as in merit badges for good works.  In scouts one gets a badge for certain achievements. How many must one have to get to heaven?

If merit is as ones good works How many must one have?   I put this question to you winsome.

Mike you promised that you wouldn't comment on this thread.

I know but I just had to ask. I asked it in the other thread but never got an answer. This is all I ask.

This is a pertinent quest to the thread and deserves an answer.  If you say salvation is by works then please answer.

Merit is nothing like merit badges, and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.

Mature questions receive answers, for future reference.

Full Definition of merit

a obsolete :   reward or punishment due

b :   the qualities or actions that constitute the basis of one's deserts

c :   a praiseworthy quality :   virtue

d :   character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem; also :   achievement

:  spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits

3

  a plural :   the substance of a legal case apart from matters of jurisdiction, procedure, or form

b :   individual significance or justification

Virtue is a character quality and not a work.
My question still stands.   How many must one do

You stated      and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.  Explain you comment. If you say it is not by our own merit but Jesus Christ then there cannot be salvation by works

[Catholica]

Merit as in merit badges for good works.  In scouts one gets a badge for certain achievements. How many must one have to get to heaven?

If merit is as ones good works How many must one have?   I put this question to you winsome.

Mike you promised that you wouldn't comment on this thread.

I know but I just had to ask. I asked it in the other thread but never got an answer. This is all I ask.

This is a pertinent quest to the thread and deserves an answer.  If you say salvation is by works then please answer.

Merit is nothing like merit badges, and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.

Mature questions receive answers, for future reference.

Full Definition of merit

a obsolete :   reward or punishment due

b :   the qualities or actions that constitute the basis of one's deserts

c :   a praiseworthy quality :   virtue

d :   character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem; also :   achievement

:  spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits

3

  a plural :   the substance of a legal case apart from matters of jurisdiction, procedure, or form

b :   individual significance or justification

Virtue is a character quality and not a work.
My question still stands.   How many must one do

You stated      and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.  Explain you comment. If you say it is not by our own merit but Jesus Christ then there cannot be salvation by works

Definition D that you have highlighted above we call "strict merit" and that merit for the salvation of persons could only be earned by Jesus Christ.

You are right that it is not by our own merit that earns us salvation.  The idea that people have that the Catholic Church teaches that we earn our salvation is false.

However what we do in this life does have impact one whether we receive that reward of salvation.  People asked Jesus frequently "What must I do to be saved?"  Jesus never answered "nothing" did he?  The price of our salvation was earned by Jesus Christ. Whether we do what Jesus requires of us to receive the salvation he earned is up to us.

Jesus promised salvation "if".  Do a word-study sometime on the word "if" in the gospels.  It's fascinating.  There are all these conditions on Jesus' promises.  Stuff that we have to do.  Not to earn salvation, but to receive the salvation earned by Christ.

[mclees8]

Merit as in merit badges for good works.  In scouts one gets a badge for certain achievements. How many must one have to get to heaven?

If merit is as ones good works How many must one have?   I put this question to you winsome.

Mike you promised that you wouldn't comment on this thread.

I know but I just had to ask. I asked it in the other thread but never got an answer. This is all I ask.

This is a pertinent quest to the thread and deserves an answer.  If you say salvation is by works then please answer.

Merit is nothing like merit badges, and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.

Mature questions receive answers, for future reference.

Full Definition of merit

a obsolete :   reward or punishment due

b :   the qualities or actions that constitute the basis of one's deserts

c :   a praiseworthy quality :   virtue

d :   character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem; also :   achievement

:  spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits

3

  a plural :   the substance of a legal case apart from matters of jurisdiction, procedure, or form

b :   individual significance or justification

Virtue is a character quality and not a work.
My question still stands.   How many must one do

You stated      and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.  Explain you comment. If you say it is not by our own merit but Jesus Christ then there cannot be salvation by works

Definition D that you have highlighted above we call "strict merit" and that merit for the salvation of persons could only be earned by Jesus Christ.

You are right that it is not by our own merit that earns us salvation.  The idea that people have that the Catholic Church teaches that we earn our salvation is false.

However what we do in this life does have impact one whether we receive that reward of salvation.  People asked Jesus frequently "What must I do to be saved?"  Jesus never answered "nothing" did he?  The price of our salvation was earned by Jesus Christ. Whether we do what Jesus requires of us to receive the salvation he earned is up to us.

Jesus promised salvation "if".  Do a word-study sometime on the word "if" in the gospels.  It's fascinating.  There are all these conditions on Jesus' promises.  Stuff that we have to do.  Not to earn salvation, but to receive the salvation earned by Christ.

Salvation is a free gift given by God for those who believed in the work of the cross. Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom except those who do the will of the Father.  But it's not doing by the flesh but by the spirit of God in us,  then we love our neighbor as our self.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze 36:26-27

Its a change of heart that truly gets us to heaven.   To love Gods precepts is also to love your neighbor not by works of the law but by the Holy Spirit

[Catholica]

Merit as in merit badges for good works.  In scouts one gets a badge for certain achievements. How many must one have to get to heaven?

If merit is as ones good works How many must one have?   I put this question to you winsome.

Mike you promised that you wouldn't comment on this thread.

I know but I just had to ask. I asked it in the other thread but never got an answer. This is all I ask.

This is a pertinent quest to the thread and deserves an answer.  If you say salvation is by works then please answer.

Merit is nothing like merit badges, and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.

Mature questions receive answers, for future reference.

Full Definition of merit

a obsolete :   reward or punishment due

b :   the qualities or actions that constitute the basis of one's deserts

c :   a praiseworthy quality :   virtue

d :   character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem; also :   achievement

:  spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits

3

  a plural :   the substance of a legal case apart from matters of jurisdiction, procedure, or form

b :   individual significance or justification

Virtue is a character quality and not a work.
My question still stands.   How many must one do

You stated      and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.  Explain you comment. If you say it is not by our own merit but Jesus Christ then there cannot be salvation by works

Definition D that you have highlighted above we call "strict merit" and that merit for the salvation of persons could only be earned by Jesus Christ.

You are right that it is not by our own merit that earns us salvation.  The idea that people have that the Catholic Church teaches that we earn our salvation is false.

However what we do in this life does have impact one whether we receive that reward of salvation.  People asked Jesus frequently "What must I do to be saved?"  Jesus never answered "nothing" did he?  The price of our salvation was earned by Jesus Christ. Whether we do what Jesus requires of us to receive the salvation he earned is up to us.

Jesus promised salvation "if".  Do a word-study sometime on the word "if" in the gospels.  It's fascinating.  There are all these conditions on Jesus' promises.  Stuff that we have to do.  Not to earn salvation, but to receive the salvation earned by Christ.

Salvation is a free gift given by God for those who believed in the work of the cross. Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom except those who do the will of the Father.  But it's not doing by the flesh but by the spirit of God in us,  then we love our neighbor as our self.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze 36:26-27

Its a change of heart that truly gets us to heaven.   To love Gods precepts is also to love your neighbor not by works of the law but by the Holy Spirit

yep.  So how does human will factor into doing the will of the Father?  Does the Holy Spirit do his work through us against our will?  Do we love our neighbors against our will?

PS why did you omit Ezek. 36:25?

[mclees8]

Merit as in merit badges for good works.  In scouts one gets a badge for certain achievements. How many must one have to get to heaven?

If merit is as ones good works How many must one have?   I put this question to you winsome.

Mike you promised that you wouldn't comment on this thread.

I know but I just had to ask. I asked it in the other thread but never got an answer. This is all I ask.

This is a pertinent quest to the thread and deserves an answer.  If you say salvation is by works then please answer.

Merit is nothing like merit badges, and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.

Mature questions receive answers, for future reference.

Full Definition of merit

a obsolete :   reward or punishment due

b :   the qualities or actions that constitute the basis of one's deserts

c :   a praiseworthy quality :   virtue

d :   character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem; also :   achievement

:  spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits

3

  a plural :   the substance of a legal case apart from matters of jurisdiction, procedure, or form

b :   individual significance or justification

Virtue is a character quality and not a work.
My question still stands.   How many must one do

You stated      and salvation itself (whether one is saved or not) is not based on one's own merit, but Jesus Christ's.  Explain you comment. If you say it is not by our own merit but Jesus Christ then there cannot be salvation by works

Definition D that you have highlighted above we call "strict merit" and that merit for the salvation of persons could only be earned by Jesus Christ.

You are right that it is not by our own merit that earns us salvation.  The idea that people have that the Catholic Church teaches that we earn our salvation is false.

However what we do in this life does have impact one whether we receive that reward of salvation.  People asked Jesus frequently "What must I do to be saved?"  Jesus never answered "nothing" did he?  The price of our salvation was earned by Jesus Christ. Whether we do what Jesus requires of us to receive the salvation he earned is up to us.

Jesus promised salvation "if".  Do a word-study sometime on the word "if" in the gospels.  It's fascinating.  There are all these conditions on Jesus' promises.  Stuff that we have to do.  Not to earn salvation, but to receive the salvation earned by Christ.

Salvation is a free gift given by God for those who believed in the work of the cross. Jesus said not all who say Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom except those who do the will of the Father.  But it's not doing by the flesh but by the spirit of God in us,  then we love our neighbor as our self.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Eze 36:26-27

Its a change of heart that truly gets us to heaven.   To love Gods precepts is also to love your neighbor not by works of the law but by the Holy Spirit

yep.  So how does human will factor into doing the will of the Father?  Does the Holy Spirit do his work through us against our will?  Do we love our neighbors against our will?

PS why did you omit Ezek. 36:25?

Not by our will which is the law but His will which is of the Spirit

[Catholica]

So how does human will factor into doing the will of the Father?  Does the Holy Spirit do his work through us against our will?  Do we love our neighbors against our will?

Not by our will which is the law but His will which is of the Spirit

"Our will which is the law" is not a rational statement to me. I can't make heads or tails of it.

"Our will" is our freedom as a person to make choices.
"The law" is a reference to the laws of the Davidic Covenant, aka the Mosaic law.

In any case you didn't answer the questions:

So how does human will factor into doing the will of the Father? 

Does the Holy Spirit do his work through us against our will? 

Do we love our neighbors against our will?

[mclees8]

So how does human will factor into doing the will of the Father?  Does the Holy Spirit do his work through us against our will?  Do we love our neighbors against our will?

Not by our will which is the law but His will which is of the Spirit

"Our will which is the law" is not a rational statement to me. I can't make heads or tails of it.

"Our will" is our freedom as a person to make choices.
"The law" is a reference to the laws of the Davidic Covenant, aka the Mosaic law.

In any case you didn't answer the questions:

So how does human will factor into doing the will of the Father? 

Does the Holy Spirit do his work through us against our will? 

Do we love our neighbors against our will?

No one is forced to do the will of God against their own will.  Your point?

I do my best to do the will of because I want.  That is my point from Eze

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. . Eze 36:26-27

The Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost only because they wanted the promise. If they did not they would not have been there.

[AVZ]

Do we love our neighbors against our will?

Yes

[winsome]

 AVZ,

1. I'm still waiting for a reply to my question: Did Christ pay the legal penalty for our sins? Yes or No?

2. I'm also still waiting for you to show me where the Catholic Church teaches that venial sins lose some grace.

3. And another one. You claimed that purgatory having a timeline is a Catholic doctrine. Please show me where that "doctrine" is defined.

As I'm going away tomorrow perhaps I should help you out on 2 & 3

Regarding 2, the Church does NOT teach that venial sins lose some grace.
Here is a quote from the Catechism that proves that:
However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God; it does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness." (CCC 1863)
The quote in there that I have emboldened is from Pope John Paull II's Encyclical Redemptoris Missio. 

Regarding 3, the Catechism makes no mention of time in its section on Purgatory. It does say:
The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent........ (CCC 1031)
If time was part of the doctrine we could therefore expect to find some reference to it in the texts of the Councils of Florence ands Trent. However there are no such references.

Your claim:

The Catholic system uses merits, mortal sins which lose all grace, venial sins which lose some grace, it has purgatory with a time line...all are quantitative expressions.
Now if the system was not quantitative...it would not have these doctrines.

is demonstrably false.

[mclees8]

Im  still asking , How many good works must one have to get to heaven?  You can't answer that can you?

If you could you would so this salvation by works is a sham

[winsome]

Im  still asking , How many good works must one have to get to heaven?  You can't answer that can you?

If you could you would so this salvation by works is a sham

Answered in reply #41

[mclees8]

Winsome
If we die at that point we go straight to heaven. Nothing more is needed. No "points".




What do you mean by the statement ?

[kensington]

Do we love our neighbors against our will?

Yes

Well, duh.  Some of them are unlovable and some hate us...  We submit our will to the will of the Lord. He causes our hearts to bend with it when we do.

[kensington]

Im  still asking , How many good works must one have to get to heaven?  You can't answer that can you?

If you could you would so this salvation by works is a sham

Answered in reply #41

According to your answer #41, no good works needed.  Grace is freely offered and it saves you, and takes you into relationship with Jesus.

That's what Protestants have been saying all along.  No good works saves you or enhances your salvation. 

[doorknocker]

Do we love our neighbors against our will?

Yes

I am not sure that I want to be your neighbor that you are FORCED to love.

[kensington]

Do we love our neighbors against our will?

Yes

I am not sure that I want to be your neighbor that you are FORCED to love.

No one is "FORCED" to do anything.  We have free will and submit our wills and our hearts to the will of the LORD.  Lets face it, there are people who hurt us and hate us. People who use us and persecute us.  Jesus says to love them.  WE in ourselves are not capable of that kind of love.  It takes allowing God to remake our hearts and give us love for them. 

I'm guessing you can love all people, all the time, with no help from the Lord?  How do you live so perfectly?

[AVZ]

AVZ,

1. I'm still waiting for a reply to my question: Did Christ pay the legal penalty for our sins? Yes or No?

2. I'm also still waiting for you to show me where the Catholic Church teaches that venial sins lose some grace.

3. And another one. You claimed that purgatory having a timeline is a Catholic doctrine. Please show me where that "doctrine" is defined.

As I'm going away tomorrow perhaps I should help you out on 2 & 3

Regarding 2, the Church does NOT teach that venial sins lose some grace.
Here is a quote from the Catechism that proves that:
However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God; it does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness." (CCC 1863)
The quote in there that I have emboldened is from Pope John Paull II's Encyclical Redemptoris Missio. 

Regarding 3, the Catechism makes no mention of time in its section on Purgatory. It does say:
The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent........ (CCC 1031)
If time was part of the doctrine we could therefore expect to find some reference to it in the texts of the Councils of Florence ands Trent. However there are no such references.

Your claim:

The Catholic system uses merits, mortal sins which lose all grace, venial sins which lose some grace, it has purgatory with a time line...all are quantitative expressions.
Now if the system was not quantitative...it would not have these doctrines.

is demonstrably false.

OK, I will make some time for these questions.

1. Did Christ pay the legal penalty for our sins? Yes or No?

And the answer is....yes! (wonder where you are going with this)



2. I'm also still waiting for you to show me where the Catholic Church teaches that venial sins lose some grace.

First have a look at how the RCCC defines mortal sin (do note that grace is translated with "charity"):
1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Now lets have a look at venial sins:
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul's progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God's grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."

Read also the comment to 1863:
While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call "light": if you take them for light when you weigh them,tremble when you count them.A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.

This brings us to confession...penance:
1468 "The whole power of the sacrament of Penance consists in restoring us to God's grace and joining us with him in an intimate friendship."


The above clearly shows that venial sin reduces Gods grace. It may not necessarily reduce the amount...but it most definitely reduces the effect.
Many venial sins make a great mass and reduce grace more than a few venial sins.
If there was no reduction of grace, then it would not be needed to be restored.



3. The Catechism makes no mention of time in its section on Purgatory.

Nonsense statement.
First of all lets look at the logical argument: Is purgatory eternal?
The RCC teaches that purgatory is NOT eternal. Purgatory itself ceases to exist when Jesus returns.
Now, simple logic demands that everything that comes to an end, comes to an end at some point in TIME.
Conclusion: Purgatory itself is subject to TIME.

Now look at what the RCC teaches in the catechism:
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin.

An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin. The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead

But maybe you are not convinced yet? Lets see:

Catholic Encyclopedia
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.


Conclusion: Clearly the RCC teaches that punishment in Purgatory is temporal. And what else is temporal than an indicator of TIME?

[AVZ]

Do we love our neighbors against our will?

Yes

I am not sure that I want to be your neighbor that you are FORCED to love.

The question Catholica raises is incorrect. The Bible doesn't say we just have to love our neighbor.
What the Bible does teach is that we have to love our neighbor AS OURSELVES!

The fact that none of us do simply proves none of us want to.

[skeeter]

Faith is never alone.  Having faith means you are obedient and love God and neighbor. We are not saved by some kind of faith apart from works.  When Paul said faith, he meant a living faith, a "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6)

Our salvation was earned by Jesus Christ, and only because he earned it can we have it.  But still there is something that Christ has bound himself to that applies it to us.  Some claim it is to believe, or to profess him with their lips, or to be baptized, or to repent.  There is something we must do in order for Christ to apply it to us.  And it is not by doing it that earns us salvation, because only Christ could earn salvation.  By doing it, (no matter what it is) Christ has promised to grant us salvation because he earned it for us.

That type of merit we call "condign" merit: it is a thing we do that, because Christ has promised to associate applying salvation to our souls through that thing, we come by being actually saved.

If a person needs to do nothing: not believe, not profess, not be baptized, nothing at all, then what you have left is universal salvation, and I hope that you know that that is false.  If we appeal to the strict merit alone of Christ, which exists whether we know of Christ or not, then by that alone either no one is actually saved, or everyone is actually saved, or people are randomly saved or damned based on no reason at all except that God wills them to be saved or damned.

As Catholics we reject that God creates any person whilst willing them to be damned.

I don't know of any Christians who did any 'works' to be saved.  without Him anything we might consider a 'work' is nothing. until we do have Him, we can have no good works.

fyi - it's God's word that says believing with the heart is needed to be saved.  baptism isn't a required to be saved.

John 6:29

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

[Jaime]

God's word also says "he that believes and is baptized ahall be saved (Mark 16:16). NOT he that believes and is saved shall be baptized. The Bible is to be taken as a cumulative message from God, not a collection of one liners. Confessing with our lips and repentance are also part of the message in other verses. Look cumulatively at scripture as a WHOLE. Confessing is not a work, repenting is not a work, and baptism is not a work of man that earns anything. God does the miraculous work in baptism. Man only submits.

[RB]

What the Bible does teach is that we have to love our neighbor AS OURSELVES! The fact that none of us do simply proves none of us want to.

The fact that none of us do simply proves none of us want to can. That's why Jesus' perfect obedience is the means by which God can be just, as he justifies the sinner for Jesus' sake . 

[doorknocker]

What the Bible does teach is that we have to love our neighbor AS OURSELVES! The fact that none of us do simply proves none of us want to.

The fact that none of us do simply proves none of us want to can.

ThIs is a strange understanding.

We love, because He first loved us.  If any one says,  "I love God",  and hates his brother, he is a liar, for he who does

not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

And this commandment we have from Him,  that he who loves God should love his brother also.


And His commandments are not burdensome.


Beloved let us love one another,  for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.

He who does not love does not know God,  for God is love.


Beloved , if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.  No man has ever seen God,

if we love one another,  God abides in us and His love is perfected in us.



If we say that we can't or don't want to love others,  then it begs the question. ..

Do we really know God?

[AVZ]

What the Bible does teach is that we have to love our neighbor AS OURSELVES! The fact that none of us do simply proves none of us want to.

The fact that none of us do simply proves none of us want to can.

ThIs is a strange understanding.

We love, because He first loved us.  If any one says,  "I love God",  and hates his brother, he is a liar, for he who does

not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

And this commandment we have from Him,  that he who loves God should love his brother also.


And His commandments are not burdensome.


Beloved let us love one another,  for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.

He who does not love does not know God,  for God is love.


Beloved , if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.  No man has ever seen God,

if we love one another,  God abides in us and His love is perfected in us.



If we say that we can't or don't want to love others,  then it begs the question. ..

Do we really know God?

Well then, a similar question would come up....if you can and if you want to...why don't you?

[RB]

ThIs is a strange understanding............. If we say that we can't or don't want to love others,  then it begs the question. ..Do we really know God?

We cannot perfectly do so in word and deed! Impossible, or else Christ died in vain. Even after being born of God, we cannot, not even in our very best attempt to do so! We delight in trying, but fall far so short of perfection~even sometimes, not even close, because even the best, at times labor against hating people! Of course, I know you do not~and reason why you do not, is that you are not truly calling sin, sin! Have you ever spoken evil of someone, or even repeating certain things about someone to make them look bad, and yourself good? Even if the thing was right, yet you could have shown love by hiding their faults and shortcomings, by keeping them to yourself? (we practice this toward those we DO love, like our own children and our sins!)  If so, then you were showing hatred! People believe they are pretty good, only because they do not truly measure themselves by the scriptures, but by their own set of standards of right and wrong. Who in the NT thought they were righteous, and others sinners? The Pharisees who measured themselves by their own set of right and wrongs.