Salvation by Works?

[AVZ]

skeeter,

There are two steps in discussing Catholic doctrine.

Step 1. Proving what it actually IS, rather than what some people erroneously think it is. That requires evidence from authoritative Catholic documents (such as the Catechism)

Step 2. Whether that doctrine (properly understood) is correct. That requires evidence from scripture.

My argument with AVZ was still at step 1 because AVZ was claiming the Catholic Church taught something that it does not teach.There is no point in proceededing to stage 2 on that basis.

Well, I don't think proceeding to step 2 when arguing with a Catholic is possible because it is inherently impossible for Catholic doctrine to be incorrect.
It is in fact Catholic doctrine that Catholic doctrine cannot be wrong.

[Ladonia]

I have asked you show me where there is a doctrine of time in Purgatory. You have not because you cannot.

Because Catholic doctrine declares Purgatory and the stay in Purgatory as "temporary".
Temporary is an expression of time, whether you like it or not.

Now you can argue about the length or experience of "temporary"...but it still is an expression of time.

Now you really are clutching at straws.

You've come a long way from:

"The Catholic system uses merits, mortal sins which lose all grace, venial sins which lose some grace, it has purgatory with a time line...all are quantitative expressions.
  Now if the system was not quantitative...it would not have these doctrines."

Still stand behind everything I said.

Even after you been shown to be wrong!

Why am I not surprised!

Except, no one has proved him wrong.   But, your cartoonish rantings don't match what your own church actually says. 

You seem to be saying that no one gets to Heaven due to the blood Jesus shed to pay for our sins, but only through the purgatory, a made up place by man.  It's so silly. 

You haven't even produced a believable argument, much less any biblical proof. 

You deny the blood of Jesus as enough for our sins.  Sadly.  It just doesn't make any sense.  I believe you are confused about what even the Catholic Church teaches.  If Jesus was not paying for our sins at Calvary, what was He doing on that cross?

kensington,

There are two different arguments here. The first with AVZ, the second with you

1. What the Catholic Church actually teaches about salvation in terms of sanctifying grace . That does not require reference to the Bible but to authoritative Catholic documents (such as the Catechism). I have shown AVZ to be wrong.

2. Whether the Protestant doctrine of 'penal substitution' is correct. So far you have not provided any scripture to prove it.

It might be the best you can do but I don't think accusing me of 'cartoonish rantings' adds much to your arguments. Add to that claiming I said things that I clearly didn't, says to me that you have no intention of constructing a sensible argument but have descended to personal attacks.

thx for confirming that Catholics don't use/believe in God's word.
if you proved AVZ wrong, it's only according to catholic belief, not according to God's word.

btw, why do you expect others to prove anything thru scripture when you don't?

And you somehow are using God's word? I have seen time and time again a total misinterpretation of God's word from you and that is the crux of the problem and is all there is to it. A total rejection of what the Church has come up with through these many centuries is all you have got, so why should anyone believe what you folks have come up with over the doctrines of the Catholic Church?

[mclees8]

I have asked you show me where there is a doctrine of time in Purgatory. You have not because you cannot.

Because Catholic doctrine declares Purgatory and the stay in Purgatory as "temporary".
Temporary is an expression of time, whether you like it or not.

Now you can argue about the length or experience of "temporary"...but it still is an expression of time.

Now you really are clutching at straws.

You've come a long way from:

"The Catholic system uses merits, mortal sins which lose all grace, venial sins which lose some grace, it has purgatory with a time line...all are quantitative expressions.
  Now if the system was not quantitative...it would not have these doctrines."

Still stand behind everything I said.

Even after you been shown to be wrong!

Why am I not surprised!

Except, no one has proved him wrong.   But, your cartoonish rantings don't match what your own church actually says. 

You seem to be saying that no one gets to Heaven due to the blood Jesus shed to pay for our sins, but only through the purgatory, a made up place by man.  It's so silly. 

You haven't even produced a believable argument, much less any biblical proof. 

You deny the blood of Jesus as enough for our sins.  Sadly.  It just doesn't make any sense.  I believe you are confused about what even the Catholic Church teaches.  If Jesus was not paying for our sins at Calvary, what was He doing on that cross?

kensington,

There are two different arguments here. The first with AVZ, the second with you

1. What the Catholic Church actually teaches about salvation in terms of sanctifying grace . That does not require reference to the Bible but to authoritative Catholic documents (such as the Catechism). I have shown AVZ to be wrong.

2. Whether the Protestant doctrine of 'penal substitution' is correct. So far you have not provided any scripture to prove it.

It might be the best you can do but I don't think accusing me of 'cartoonish rantings' adds much to your arguments. Add to that claiming I said things that I clearly didn't, says to me that you have no intention of constructing a sensible argument but have descended to personal attacks.

thx for confirming that Catholics don't use/believe in God's word.
if you proved AVZ wrong, it's only according to catholic belief, not according to God's word.

btw, why do you expect others to prove anything thru scripture when you don't?

And you somehow are using God's word? I have seen time and time again a total misinterpretation of God's word from you and that is the crux of the problem and is all there is to it. A total rejection of what the Church has come up with through these many centuries is all you have got, so why should anyone believe what you folks have come up with over the doctrines of the Catholic Church?

Why because your doctrines are made up of men and not Gods word. It has falsely represented Gods word that's why?

[kensington]

Winsome...  You denied that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins at Calvary.

PLEASE...  Tell us what Jesus was doing on the Cross.  Again I ask you. 

[skeeter]

kensington,

There are two different arguments here. The first with AVZ, the second with you

1. What the Catholic Church actually teaches about salvation in terms of sanctifying grace . That does not require reference to the Bible but to authoritative Catholic documents (such as the Catechism). I have shown AVZ to be wrong.

2. Whether the Protestant doctrine of 'penal substitution' is correct. So far you have not provided any scripture to prove it.

It might be the best you can do but I don't think accusing me of 'cartoonish rantings' adds much to your arguments. Add to that claiming I said things that I clearly didn't, says to me that you have no intention of constructing a sensible argument but have descended to personal attacks.

thx for confirming that Catholics don't use/believe in God's word.
if you proved AVZ wrong, it's only according to catholic belief, not according to God's word.

btw, why do you expect others to prove anything thru scripture when you don't?

And you somehow are using God's word?

I have seen time and time again a total misinterpretation of God's word from you and that is the crux of the problem and is all there is to it.

A total rejection of what the Church has come up with through these many centuries is all you have got,

so why should anyone believe what you folks have come up with over the doctrines of the Catholic Church?

the rcc  comes up with  very strange things - far from what God's word actually says...

what 'us' folks 'come up with' is from God's word - the Bible/scripture.

over 'doctrine' catholics make up to support their false teachings.

[winsome]

kensington,

There are two different arguments here. The first with AVZ, the second with you

1. What the Catholic Church actually teaches about salvation in terms of sanctifying grace . That does not require reference to the Bible but to authoritative Catholic documents (such as the Catechism). I have shown AVZ to be wrong.

2. Whether the Protestant doctrine of 'penal substitution' is correct. So far you have not provided any scripture to prove it.

It might be the best you can do but I don't think accusing me of 'cartoonish rantings' adds much to your arguments. Add to that claiming I said things that I clearly didn't, says to me that you have no intention of constructing a sensible argument but have descended to personal attacks.

thx for confirming that Catholics don't use/believe in God's word.
if you proved AVZ wrong, it's only according to catholic belief, not according to God's word.

btw, why do you expect others to prove anything thru scripture when you don't?

And you somehow are using God's word?

I have seen time and time again a total misinterpretation of God's word from you and that is the crux of the problem and is all there is to it.

A total rejection of what the Church has come up with through these many centuries is all you have got,

so why should anyone believe what you folks have come up with over the doctrines of the Catholic Church?

the rcc  comes up with  very strange things - far from what God's word actually says... 

No it doesn't.

what 'us' folks 'come up with' is from God's word - the Bible/scripture.

No you don't

over 'doctrine' catholics make up to support their false teachings.

No we don't

There. That's all settled.

[Hexalpa]

I have asked you show me where there is a doctrine of time in Purgatory. You have not because you cannot.

Because Catholic doctrine declares Purgatory and the stay in Purgatory as "temporary".
Temporary is an expression of time, whether you like it or not.

Now you can argue about the length or experience of "temporary"...but it still is an expression of time.

Now you really are clutching at straws.

You've come a long way from:

"The Catholic system uses merits, mortal sins which lose all grace, venial sins which lose some grace, it has purgatory with a time line...all are quantitative expressions.
  Now if the system was not quantitative...it would not have these doctrines."

Still stand behind everything I said.

Even after you been shown to be wrong!

Why am I not surprised!

Except, no one has proved him wrong.   But, your cartoonish rantings don't match what your own church actually says. 

You seem to be saying that no one gets to Heaven due to the blood Jesus shed to pay for our sins, but only through the purgatory, a made up place by man.  It's so silly. 

You haven't even produced a believable argument, much less any biblical proof. 

You deny the blood of Jesus as enough for our sins.  Sadly.  It just doesn't make any sense.  I believe you are confused about what even the Catholic Church teaches.  If Jesus was not paying for our sins at Calvary, what was He doing on that cross?

kensington,

There are two different arguments here. The first with AVZ, the second with you

1. What the Catholic Church actually teaches about salvation in terms of sanctifying grace . That does not require reference to the Bible but to authoritative Catholic documents (such as the Catechism). I have shown AVZ to be wrong.

2. Whether the Protestant doctrine of 'penal substitution' is correct. So far you have not provided any scripture to prove it.

It might be the best you can do but I don't think accusing me of 'cartoonish rantings' adds much to your arguments. Add to that claiming I said things that I clearly didn't, says to me that you have no intention of constructing a sensible argument but have descended to personal attacks.

thx for confirming that Catholics don't use/believe in God's word.
if you proved AVZ wrong, it's only according to catholic belief, not according to God's word.

btw, why do you expect others to prove anything thru scripture when you don't?

And you somehow are using God's word? I have seen time and time again a total misinterpretation of God's word from you and that is the crux of the problem and is all there is to it. A total rejection of what the Church has come up with through these many centuries is all you have got, so why should anyone believe what you folks have come up with over the doctrines of the Catholic Church?

I agree that you are correct, many people claim that what the RCC puts forward is total misinterpretation of the truth, I believe that a person with anger in there heart can never come to comprehend the truth, they just rant and rave like mad men and it gets no where at all.

Works that are or come from mans ways are not works in Christ at all.
We are not working for our salvation, no one can do that.

The only thing that is worthy is the workings within the Holy Spirit, that Christ abiding in us, is just that, anything other is just as filthy rags to Christ, it will be burnt up, such will not cut it. 

When James said faith without the works is dead, it's a fact and he said show me your faith without the works. he is talking to Christians for crying out loud who are within the Holy Spirit.
If one does not abide in the Holy Spirit you are nothing in Christ, just like noisy clanging bells.

One who just claims he is saved and does nothing is a fool, Jesus talks about the workers in the vineyard, sadly the workers are few.

You must abide in the vine and produce fruit for crying out loud. Nathaniel knew who Jesus was.

There is a story of a candle lamp, you put it on the top for all to see and their is the one about the oil some did not have the oil ?

Some claim to sit back and just do nothing as 'they' themselves claim to all of themselves to be saved, that's a dead jesus they push, as they don't have the Holy Spirit working in them.
The dead jesus mob do not know the Trinity or reject it.

The Holy Spirit ? if one offends against it as such, Jesus talks about this as well.

The Trinity is where it's all at and it's alive as it was in the beginning as it is today and it's the only way to Christ Jesus to know him and for him to know you.
The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are one and the same but three in one, you can't abide in the Holy Spirit and not be of the Lords Saved.
A soldier in the Lord Jesus does not just sit about doing nothing, as he puts on Christ.