corrupt flesh ?

[wincam]

how did Jesus refine the corrupt flesh He inherited from His mother - was Christ the saviour of the fully human Jesus - twinc

[Stranger]

wincam

Who said He inherited His flesh from His mother?

Stranger

[wincam]

it seems you have a problem  - wincam

[Alan]

wincam

Who said He inherited His flesh from His mother?

Stranger

Isn't that how the procreation process works with us humans?

[chosenone]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

[Stranger]

it seems you have a problem  - wincam

Why do I have a problem?  Jesus Christ did not come from corrupt flesh.

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is the work of the Holy Spirit.  It is not the Holy Spirit making Christ Deity.  The Son was already Deity.  The Son was not made Deity by the Holy Spirit.   But that body that was prepared for Him, was the work of the Holy Spirit.  A body of flesh from God without sin. 

Stranger

[winsome]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

Actually the Bible says none of those things.

[winsome]

it seems you have a problem  - wincam

Why do I have a problem?  Jesus Christ did not come from corrupt flesh.

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is the work of the Holy Spirit.  It is not the Holy Spirit making Christ Deity.  The Son was already Deity.  The Son was not made Deity by the Holy Spirit.   But that body that was prepared for Him, was the work of the Holy Spirit.  A body of flesh from God without sin. 

Stranger

Jesus received his human naure from Mary. Otherwise he could not have redeemed us.

[MeMyself]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

Actually the Bible says none of those things.

The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.

[winsome]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

Actually the Bible says none of those things.

The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.

So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.

[chosenone]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

Actually the Bible says none of those things.

Do you not read the parts that dont agree with RC beliefs?

Let this help.
http://www.gotquestions.org/perpetual-virginity-Mary.html


Matthew 1:25

25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

[MeMyself]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

Actually the Bible says none of those things.

The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.

So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.

I have never said there is scripture that specifically says, "and Joseph took her in his arms and had sexual relations with Mary."

What I have said is, that it follows the context of marriage.  Within marriage, there is to be sex.  It is THE place God has created for the act to be enjoyed with no shame or sin.  And God does not say that Mary and Joseph's marriage was exempt from that. He, in fact, told Joseph not to know her until the child was born; which leads to the logical conclusion that after she healed from the birth of Christ, he had full access to her body.
The Bibles context on the subject is also pretty easy to follow, in that Jesus HAD siblings.  That logically concludes that Mary and Joseph had an active marriage bed and siblings were created.

[Stranger]

winsome

In your reply #7 you said Jesus recieved His human nature from Mary otherwise he could not have redeemed us.   Who says?   You?   Was Adams body human flesh?   So I guess the Holy Spirit could produce another body of flesh not connected with the sinful flesh of Mary.

He did it once didn't He?  I guess He can do it again.  Perhaps that's why Jesus is called the Last Adam. 

Jesus was and is God the Son.  The Holy Spirit prepared a body for Him.  Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"

Jesus Christ is not connected to the corrupt flesh of Adam or Mary.

Stranger

[winsome]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

Actually the Bible says none of those things.

Do you not read the parts that dont agree with RC beliefs?

Let this help.
http://www.gotquestions.org/perpetual-virginity-Mary.html


Matthew 1:25

25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

That does not say that Mary had sexual relations with Joseph after Jesus was born.

It only says that they did not have intercourse between the time Joseph took her into his home and Jesus being born. The 'until' does not mean they had intercourse afterwards. That is an assumption on your part. It's not what the Bible says

[winsome]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

Actually the Bible says none of those things.

The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.

So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.

I have never said there is scripture that specifically says, "and Joseph took her in his arms and had sexual relations with Mary."

Yes you did. I quote:
"How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. "

[winsome]

winsome

In your reply #7 you said Jesus recieved His human nature from Mary otherwise he could not have redeemed us.   Who says?   You?   Was Adams body human flesh?   So I guess the Holy Spirit could produce another body of flesh not connected with the sinful flesh of Mary.

He did it once didn't He?  I guess He can do it again.  Perhaps that's why Jesus is called the Last Adam. 

Jesus was and is God the Son.  The Holy Spirit prepared a body for Him.  Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"

Jesus Christ is not connected to the corrupt flesh of Adam or Mary.

Stranger

God prepared a body does not say he created one.

Jesus had to redeem all of humanity, all those born from Adam. Jesus was not an alien impregnated into Mary as some surrogate. Scripture is quite clear he was a descendant of David "according to the flesh" (Rom 1:3)

Also Gen 3:15  "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;"

[MeMyself]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

Actually the Bible says none of those things.

The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.

So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.

I have never said there is scripture that specifically says, "and Joseph took her in his arms and had sexual relations with Mary."

Yes you did. I quote:
"How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. "

haha!  I guess that us girls all look alike to you,    I didn't say what you've quoted.  ChosenOne did. I am MeMyself.

[winsome]

How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough.

Actually the Bible says none of those things.

The Bible doesn't *have* to say it. Why? Because in marriage, its an established fact that it included sex, and sex often leads to offspring...for that to be true of everyone BUT Mary, I would think God would have seen fit to say, "and Joseph never knew her" and we would not read about Jesus siblings because there were never any.

So you admit that your claim, that you have previously posted (many times) actual Bible verse that say these things, is not true.

I have never said there is scripture that specifically says, "and Joseph took her in his arms and had sexual relations with Mary."

Yes you did. I quote:
"How many times do we need to post the verses in the Bible that say Mary and her husband had sex, that she had more children and the she wasn't perfect. Its so clear.
God says it.Apparently that not good enough. "

haha!  I guess that us girls all look alike to you,    I didn't say what you've quoted.  ChosenOne did. I am MeMyself.

Whoops! My apologies. I wasn't looking carefully enough.

What's the saying? "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" 

[MeMyself]

Whoops! My apologies. I wasn't looking carefully enough.

What's the saying? "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" 

No worries.

Not a fool, just speed reading, I am guess. 

[Stranger]

winsome

Concerning your reply #15:  But the Holy Spirit created that body.  Didn't he?   What did we just read in Luke 1:35 ..."The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:  therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. "  And we are told in Phillippians 2:7 that Jesus was " made in the likeness of men:"   Seems He was somewhat special.

As I said earlier, The Holy Spirit was not creating the Deity of Christ.  He was creating the humanity of Christ.   Or do you disagree?  Was the Holy Spirit creating the Deity of the Son?

Yes I know you already said Jesus had to redeem all of humanity.  I don't disagree with that. So what?   Jesus was not an alien in that He was born of Mary.  He was Alien in that it was a Supernatural birth and foreign to any birth before and ever will be.

Yes, Jesus was a decendant of David according to the flesh because He was born of Mary. That doesn't mean He was affected with Mary's sinful flesh.    And if I remember right, women don't have 'seed'.  The man does. 

Stranger

[winsome]

winsome

Concerning your reply #15:  But the Holy Spirit created that body.  Didn't he?   What did we just read in Luke 1:35 ..."The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:  therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. "  And we are told in Phillippians 2:7 that Jesus was " made in the likeness of men:"   Seems He was somewhat special.

No the Holy Spirit didn't create Jesus' body. The quote you give doesn't say that he did

As I said earlier, The Holy Spirit was not creating the Deity of Christ.  He was creating the humanity of Christ.   Or do you disagree?  Was the Holy Spirit creating the Deity of the Son?

The Holy Spirit didn't create the humanity of Christ.

As to his creating the Divinity of Christ - why should I consider such a heresy?

Yes I know you already said Jesus had to redeem all of humanity.  I don't disagree with that. So what?   Jesus was not an alien in that He was born of Mary.  He was Alien in that it was a Supernatural birth and foreign to any birth before and ever will be.

Jesus Christ was fully human and that humanity came from Mary.

Yes, Jesus was a decendant of David according to the flesh because He was born of Mary. That doesn't mean He was affected with Mary's sinful flesh.    And if I remember right, women don't have 'seed'.  The man does. 

Stranger

Neither woman nor the man biologically has 'seed'. The man has sperm and ther woman has eggs.

If we consider the sexual reproduction of plants (where 'seed' is appropriate), it the female ovules that get pollinated and develops into seeds. Similarly with hiumans it is the female egg that is ferilised and developes into the equivalent - a human embryo. It is not the male sperm that developes into a human embryo.

Jesus came from one of Mary's eggs just as in any other human. But in her case it was by the power of the Holy Spirit rather than the normal method of sexual intercourse.

Thus Jesus is of her "seed", he is the fruit of her womb (Lk 1:42).

Jesus would not be a descendant of David 'according to the flesh' if he was an alien implant into Mary.

[Stranger]

winsome

Well, Hebrews 10:5 says "a body thou hast prepared for me".  Seems "a body" was what was being prepared and created.  As I already said, and which you agree, Jesus didn't get His Deity from the Holy Spirit.  He The Son was already Deity.   That only leaves the 'body' that the Holy Spirit, prepared or created.    Jesus was made in the 'likeness of men'. Phil. 2:7 

And, concerning the 'seed', Scripture says 'of the seed of the woman'.   But you say neither the man or the woman have seed.  That seems strange.  You just told me the Scriptures I gave didn't say Jesus body was what the Holy Spirit created.  And now the Scriptures say 'the seed of the woman' but you say neither men or women have seed.   So, what are you saying?   God didn't really mean what He said when He said, 'seed of the woman" ?

If Jesus got His flesh from Mary, or David, then He would be sinful.   The Holy Spirit had to create that body in the womb of Mary.  "That Holy Thing". 

Of course He was Alien.  He was God.  Do you believe Jesus got His body from sinful Mary?

Stranger

[winsome]

winsome

Well, Hebrews 10:5 says "a body thou hast prepared for me".  Seems "a body" was what was being prepared and created.  As I already said, and which you agree, Jesus didn't get His Deity from the Holy Spirit.  He The Son was already Deity.   That only leaves the 'body' that the Holy Spirit, prepared or created.    Jesus was made in the 'likeness of men'. Phil. 2:7 

And, concerning the 'seed', Scripture says 'of the seed of the woman'.   But you say neither the man or the woman have seed.  That seems strange.  You just told me the Scriptures I gave didn't say Jesus body was what the Holy Spirit created.  And now the Scriptures say 'the seed of the woman' but you say neither men or women have seed.   So, what are you saying?   God didn't really mean what He said when He said, 'seed of the woman" ?

If Jesus got His flesh from Mary, or David, then He would be sinful.   The Holy Spirit had to create that body in the womb of Mary.  "That Holy Thing". 

Of course He was Alien.  He was God.  Do you believe Jesus got His body from sinful Mary?

Stranger

Stranger,
I'm trying hard to believe that you are not wilfully misunderstanding me here.
God prepared for the Incarnation from the beginning as is indicated in Gen 3:15. It was all part of his plan. That is what prepared means. Moreover God prepared Mary to be the true mother of Jesus as I will come to in a moment

The analogy I drew with plants is the the 'seed' is the fertilised egg - of the woman (just as the seed of a plant is the fertilised ovules) . Jesus came from Mary 'according to the flesh' not by implantation of something alien to her body. It was Mary's fertilised egg that grew into Jesus in her womb just as for any human being. Jesus was the fruit of her womb (LK 1:42)

Jesus is true man as well as true God.

The point about God preparing Mary is that she was made immaculate (free from stain of sin) at her conception. She was saved from the effects of original sin - hence she needed a saviour (LK 1:47) but in a different way to that by which we are saved. Jesus therefore did not inherit a sinful nature from Mary because she did not have a sinful nature.

[Stranger]

winsome

Your reply #20, you said to me, "The quote you give doesn't say that he did"

You give to me now your version with some verses, of which I say to you, 'The quote you give doesn't say that'. 

I said, as Scripture says, that God prepared a body for the Son.   You instead, say God prepared Mary.  Scripture doesn't say God had to prepare Mary.  He just told Mary. 

You dislike that the Holy Spirit prepared and created that body that the Son would become, because it destroys your belief in Mary's immaculate conception.  It wasn't needed.   And you can't show that it was needed.  Else you would. 

If what the Holy Spirit created in Mary's womb, was not alien, then it was corrupted by the flesh.  It was alien, in that it was God. 

Now, did God create Adam?   Of flesh?   Without sin?   Yes or No?

Can God create the Last Adam, of flesh, without sin, yes or no?

Stranger

[Rella]

That does not say that Mary had sexual relations with Joseph after Jesus was born.

It only says that they did not have intercourse between the time Joseph took her into his home and Jesus being born. The 'until' does not mean they had intercourse afterwards. That is an assumption on your part. It's not what the Bible says

First: We are told to go and multiply.

THAT IS A COMMANDMENT OF GOD, HIMSELF.

From the Catholic Online Bible

Genesis 1-28  God blessed them, saying to them, 'Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven and all the living creatures that move on earth.'

In fact: Genisis 1-28 is the very first commandment in the Bible " be fruitful and multiply"

This is from the Catholic Bible... Not King James or any other.

And if Mary and Joseph did not cement their marriage, after Jesus' birth... they would have been sinning against
God.  WOULD GOD HAVE PERMITTED THOSE WHO DEFIED A COMMANDMENT TO RAISE UP JESUS WITH HIS MOST IMPORTANT ROLE FOR HUMANITY?  I doubt it.

Not to mention.... how many men do you know who would be married to a woman and not "know" her, forever? Back in that day and age, that was legal grounds for divorce.

We are told in Matt 1-25

Catholic Online Bible:

25 he had not had intercourse with her when she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

It does not say they never had intercourse.

Now I could post many differing interpretations of Matt 1-25 but for the sake of brevity I will not.

But what in the world difference does it make? Mary was chosen to be the perfect vessel for Jesus to be born from.
NO ONE argues that.

I say a prayer to Mary every mother's day and thank her for that.

But once Jesus was born.. Then they could well have been a normal husband and wife for that day and age.

In fact, as Jesus was not even considered to be "special" as a child growing up... it seems quite reasonable that
he had a normal upbringing with his siblings until it was time for him to "become a man " and then grow into
taking the rolle of his "Father's business".

[wincam]

yes yes yes but but but what you say and imagine and assume is not in the Bible - what is in the Bible is that Sarah and Elizabeth had plenty of time for sex but did not increase and multiply and nor did Jesus increase and multiply - wincam

[winsome]

winsome

Your reply #20, you said to me, "The quote you give doesn't say that he did"

You give to me now your version with some verses, of which I say to you, 'The quote you give doesn't say that'. 

I said, as Scripture says, that God prepared a body for the Son.   You instead, say God prepared Mary.  Scripture doesn't say God had to prepare Mary.  He just told Mary. 

You dislike that the Holy Spirit prepared and created that body that the Son would become, because it destroys your belief in Mary's immaculate conception.  It wasn't needed.   And you can't show that it was needed.  Else you would. 

If what the Holy Spirit created in Mary's womb, was not alien, then it was corrupted by the flesh.  It was alien, in that it was God. 

Now, did God create Adam?   Of flesh?   Without sin?   Yes or No?

Can God create the Last Adam, of flesh, without sin, yes or no?

Stranger

Hi Stranger,
I'm on holiday with not much time and an android tablet - not the greatest for long replies. So I'm going to do something i rarely do - a copy and paste from an article i kept long ago and I've just rediscovered which will answer this:

Objection: Mary didn't give Jesus His humanity; God created a new humanity for Him in heaven.  Mary just bore and gave birth to it.

Yes, some people do believe this!  It is called the "celestial flesh" teaching, and was taught by, among others, Menno Simmons, the founder of the Mennonites (though I think the Mennonites have since repudiated this heresy).  Some people today believe in it as well; I hope it is not a widespread belief, but since the idea is out there it must be answered.

This would have to be the ultimate attempt to downplay the Mother of Jesus; reducing her to a mere incubator for a Sacred Humanity newly created by God!  The "celestial flesh" teaching is actually a revival of the heretical Christology of Valentinus, a second-century Gnostic who taught that Jesus' body was made in heaven and that He passed through Mary "as water through a pipe", taking nothing from her.

The early Church had a saying:  "That which Christ has not assumed He has not healed".  Our Lord became incarnate so that He could assume our common humanity in order to redeem it (see Hebrews 2:14).  If He instead assumed some other, separate humanity, then He never truly became a member of the human race and so could not have redeemed the human race!

Proponents of the "celestial flesh" heresy cite I Corinthians 15:47 to support their belief:  "The first man is of the earth, earthly; the second man is the Lord from heaven".  Yet this passage clearly refers to Jesus' Eternal, Divine origin as opposed to Adam's created, earthly origin; not to the origin of the Sacred Humanity.

If it referred to His human nature, it would contradict Hebrews 2:14, which states that Jesus partook of the same flesh and blood which we share.  It would also mean that Jesus is not an Israelite (contradicting Romans 9:5); that He is not of the seed of David according to the flesh (contradicting Romans 1:3), nor the seed of Abraham (contradicting Gn 22:18); nor even the seed of a woman (contradicting Gn 3:15)!

Finally, it would contradict Galatians 4:4, which tells us that "When the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law".  The term "made" here is ginomai, which means "to become, be made of or formed (from geino, "to form")".  Yes, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus' Sacred Body was actually formed from the very substance of Mary, so she is truly His Mother.  Anyone who says otherwise is teaching a contra-biblical doctrine of men!

[wincam]

Winsome - exactly and spot on - amen, amen and amen - so next time one and all just simply accept what the Church and twinc say - twinc

[Stranger]

winsome

Thats fine.  Enjoy your holiday.  Get back with me when you're finished.  I never liked responding to secondary knowledge. 

Stranger

[Alan]

I can't help feel that Mary wasn't necessary in the role that she has been given by some, I've always understood the purpose of Christ's birth as 100% human from a 100% human to show us that He was just like us, yet in His Deity, able to overcome where we could not.


The elevation of Mary's status beyond being the vessel that carried Jesus removes much of the intent of "humanity" itself.

[winsome]

winsome

Thats fine.  Enjoy your holiday.  Get back with me when you're finished.  I never liked responding to secondary knowledge. 

Stranger

I'd only say the same  - just rephrased sightly.

[Stranger]

winsome

I have never heard of celestial flesh teaching.

But, I would ask you, was the flesh of Adam considered 'celestial flesh' or flesh?  After all, there wasn't anything wrong with it.

Stranger

[winsome]

winsome

I have never heard of celestial flesh teaching.

But, I would ask you, was the flesh of Adam considered 'celestial flesh' or flesh?  After all, there wasn't anything wrong with it.

Stranger

Stanger,

The name is not relevant. It fits what you are describing and the refutation applicable.

[Stranger]

winsome

Well, call it whatever you like.  Was the flesh of Adam, when He was created, celestial or other worldly, or whatever? 

Stranger

[bemark]

but he has nothing in me. no bent or desire to do wrong . nothing. no memory, no path , no way , no door, no eniquity no transgression no sin.  he was bruised for our eniquity not his and so we can be free of our carnal nature that claws on the inside of us. enquity is the bent or desire to do wrong. transgression is when we act on it. He didnt have marys sin. And yes she sinned like all mankind.