Should Christians watch R-rated movies?

[tidbit]

I agree--why can't they make good clean films anymore?  

The best movies ever made don't have nudity or filthy language.

Here's my theory--the MPAA system screwed it up.  (Hope that didn't offend anyone.)

[Son of a Preacher Man]

Many points of agreement here.  I didn't expect everybody to come all the way to my side anyway.  As a writer, I lean towards stricter enforcement of copyright law than most non-writers would.  I'd imagine everybody can see that's why I stand the way I do.  

Just like I used to call a bigger strike zone for pitchers when I umpired baseball--because I was a pitcher myself.  

I don't think comparisons to automobiles are the same as copyright issues.  Sorry.  I see where it goes, but it's just not quite the same.  The book comparrison is the closest thing so far.

I agree that the rating system and the MPAA have made the process even more complicated than it ought to be.  I'm not a fan nor a friend of the MPAA.

I wouldn't mind seeing distributers sanitize a copy approved by the filmmakers to sell directly to the consumer.  Obviously some filmmakers would never approve such a move, but others would.  

It seems to me we want to draw a line.  Okay, we'd all agree it's wrong to download a movie without paying for it because that would clearly be cheating people out of money.  Why does the next step in the process change that rationale?  See, to me, it's just like putting it on television.  TV pays for the right to cut the film, to modify, and to show the public.  In fact, everytime they show it, everybody gets paid their residuals.  I don't think it's too much to ask if the resellers were held to same standard, but like I said, I never expected most folks to come around to my way of viewing things.

Because, after all, there are still fans of The American League even with the Designated Hitter, which is clearly a vile creation that ought to be banned for life... right along side pan and scan.

[Son of a Preacher Man]

Hasn't network TV edited out offensive movie content for TV showings for, like, 50 years or more?

Yeah.  And they PAY to for the privlidge of doing so.

That's a new one on me.
I've always thought that they paid for the privilege of *showing* the movie, not *editing* the movie.
Do you have any documentation that there is a separate payment for the right of editing?

And you still haven't explained why it is wrong to alter something that I own. What is the difference between a hard edit and hitting the mute button or fast-forwarding through the muck?

And why does payment make the editing ok all of a sudden?
(Was ownership not enough?)

In this age of personalization and customization, it seems ludicrous for an industry to oppose product customization!
(Detroit doesn't ask for a cut when someone customizes a car, van, or suv...)

I didn't go and see the Passion movie partly because of the reports of excessive gore, specifically that the scourging scene was too prolonged, and that just about everyone said that they 'edited' :p the movie by averting their eyes to the gore for prolonged periods.[/color]

I deal with you later. :D

Sorry.  Gotta get back to work!  But I will respond to a couple of these things.

[Mere Nick]

Because, after all, there are still fans of The American League even with the Designated Hitter, which is clearly a vile creation that ought to be banned for life...

:amen:

It is truly a sinister inovation.  I bet the guy who thought it up has a cat.

[tidbit]

HELLO, SOAPM--

Here's an idea.  I will agree to pay you for the privilege of editing your movie.  I pay $20 for a first run movie at Wal-mart.  How much extra would you charge me to let me edit your film?  How about $2, I think that's fair and I would willingly pay you $2.

$5?  Okay, that's getting a little steep, but if I'm going to pay to have the movie edited, then I would probably pay you $5 to let me have my way with your movie.

Can we do that?  If not, why not?

[Skip]

HELLO, SOAPM--

Here's an idea.  I will agree to pay you for the privilege of editing your movie.  I pay $20 for a first run movie at Wal-mart.  How much extra would you charge me to let me edit your film?  How about $2, I think that's fair and I would willingly pay you $2.

$5?  Okay, that's getting a little steep, but if I'm going to pay to have the movie edited, then I would probably pay you $5 to let me have my way with your movie.

Can we do that?  If not, why not?

Probably not enough.

Because, you see, if you pay to edit, then the edited movie becomes YOUR art, not his!

And so you can edit, then market, \"Tidbit's cut\".
Or this might be catchy: \"Tid's Bits\" -- a line of desecrated movies.

(Was \"colorization\" considered \"editing\"?)

[winky]

Or this might be catchy: \"Tid's Bits\" -- a line of desecrated movies.

::   I like it![/color]

[Annie]

There used to be a video store that rented out movies that were already edited.  It was in North Carolina.  That was the only one I have ever seen or heard of.  I don't know who did the editing, but they called themselves a christian movie rental store.  I wish they had that by me, now.

Nick,
That store was about 45 minutes to an hour away from you, in Bakersville, Burnsville, or Spruce Pine.  I can't remember.  Do you know what I'm talking about?  If so, is it still there?

[seekr]

And what goes through your mind with edited versions? I mean we all know what breasts look like and all the other stuff, so if they black them out, are we now secure and our salvation intact? I am not trying to be too obstinate here but sin lives within us and so does lust. We can avoid everything and never change the inside. I realize when your heart is right with God and you wish to avoid certain things, then you do it unto Him, but only He delivers us from ourselves. And He has done that with the cross. Jesus has set us free.

seekr

[boringoldguy]

But did He set us free so we could watch Girls Gone Wild?

[Jimbob]

Do not use your freedom as a cover up for evil.
--apostle Peter

[seekr]

Did you hear the joke from some female Christian comedian? She said that Mel Gibson would be in heaven and that we could use that as an evangelistic tool to get people saved. A little off the subject but for some reason I thought of it reading your post.



seekr

[boringoldguy]

Shucks, jmg.  I was heading to the video store.

[Annie]

Seeker,
I don't know if you were referring to me, with what you said about blanking out breast.  If it was, the movies from the video store, that I had seen just took the whole nasty sence out, so you didn't have to imagine anything.

[rick6886]

I chose #4 - It depends on the movie.  I've seen some R-rated movies that I really didn't see anything to warrant the R-rating.  My 21-year-old son says the movie producers seek the R-rating because it makes more people want to see the movie.  Don't know if he's correct about that or not.

Actually that is a falicy Connie, most producers want a PG-13 or less rating. If it is R rated this limits the ammount of people who can even watch it since under 17's would have to be accompanied by an adult. They try to push the envelope as far as they can with PG-13 but try to avoid an R rating. In fact R rated movies do not do as well as most people think, consider the following:

Of the top ten grossing films of all time, only one is R rated, The Passion of the Christ.

Here is the list from http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/domestic.htm:

1 Titanic  $600,788,188  1997 (PG-13)
2 Star Wars  $460,998,007  1977 (PG)
3 Shrek 2   $441,226,247   2004 (PG)
4 E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial   $435,110,554  1982 (PG)
5 Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace   $431,088,301  1999 (PG-13)
6 Spider-Man   $403,706,375  2002 (PG-13)
7 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King   $377,027,325  2003 (PG-13)
8 Spider-Man 2   $373,585,825  2004
9 The Passion of the Christ   $370,782,930  2004 ®
10 Jurassic Park   $357,067,947  1993 (PG-13)

What is most interesting about this list, is the fact that most of these movies contain almost no profanity, very few if any \"sex\" scenes and the PG-13 and R ones have more to do with violence and mature subject matter more than anything else (especially The Passion of the Christ and the Lord of the Rings).

You would think that Hollywood which is interested in the all mighty dollar above all else would look at this list and say: \"hmm, if we produce movies with no profanity and sex, and only include violence or mature themed content as it relates to the story we could make a bundle!!!\"

To illustrate my point further here are movies 11-20:

11 The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers  $341,786,758 2002
12 Finding Nemo  $339,714,978 2003
13 Forrest Gump  $329,694,499 1994
14 The Lion King  $328,541,776 1994
15 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone  $317,575,550 2001
16 The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring  $314,776,170 2001
17 Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones  $310,676,740 2002
18 Return of the Jedi  $309,306,177 1983
19 Independence Day  $306,169,268 1996
20 Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl  $305,413,918 2003

Only 1 R rated movie again, Independence Day at #19, and it is really the first movie on the list with excessive profanity and sexual inuendos (although there was some profanity and pushing the envelope scenes in Forrest Gump, but not what I would call excessive).

For the most part though, most of these films you can watch as a family. It almost shocks me that Hollywood hasn't figured this out to a larger extent considering how greedy they are...

Anyway for the record I voted, Depends on the movie. The Passion of the Christ and Gladiator are 2 of my top ten films of all time, both are rated R but I would not have a problem with my sons watching either film when they become teenagers...

my humble 2 cents

Rick

[Jimbob]

Interesting list.  Perhaps more folks are making better decisions than we think.  Since the dollars are going where they are, what do you think Hollywood's motivation is for pushing the more risque movies so hard?

[marc]

btw, Independence Day was pg-13 also. I remembered this, because we bought it for our youth group in a hotel room.

I was one of the two people who voted for number 3.  I think much of this depends on the make-up of the person watching the movie.

[Emily]

Interesting list.  Perhaps more folks are making better decisions than we think.  Since the dollars are going where they are, what do you think Hollywood's motivation is for pushing the more risque movies so hard?

jmg,
I agree with you.  It seems that the really raunchy movies never go over as well as the producers hope they will (thank goodness), so you have to wonder why they keep doing it.  Well, here is just my humble observation, but could it have something to do with spiritual warfare and evil in our world? Doesn't it make sense that Satan would keep pushing at that door because that is what he is all about?  I think we need to consider the obvious even though it may seem naive.  We have to remember there is a \"dark side\".
:darthvader:[/color]

[Jimbob]

That's the conclusion I've come to.

[seekr]

But the \"dark side\" is in all of us. I know Jesus is the light but we have not done away with our natural cravings...we have just been forgiven. I do not use my freedom to cover evil. My freedom is there because I love, the opposite of evil, which is the law and what separates the goats from the sheep. My point always is that all our doings do not stop what we are. I choose to love others with Christ's love. I know what is inside of man. God made us this way for a reason. God knows every detail of everything that you pretend doesn't exist as you judge others for their blatant display of what still is in yourself. Hiding and denying is not being Christlike. And as I said before if you do something out of pure motives as unto the Lord then you are clean...no matter how imperfectly you do them. It all still falls short and doesn't really achieve righteousness. Only love does that. Live on the streets and become like those who have no choice because of the harshness of the world. Then you can claim discilpeship. Give sacrificially and then suffer for it and then you may call yourself a disciple. Quit watching R rated movies and you remain the same inside as always.

seekr

[seekr]

\"Love covers ALL wrongs.\"

[Jimbob]

\"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!\"  Matthew 6:23-24 ESV

Seems Jesus thinks what we set our eyes on matters, huh?[/color]

[tidbit]

Annie reminded me of something on the \"Bleep\" thread.

Ever go to the video store and see the movies that are described as \"UNRATED VERSION\"?  Instead of editing out the objectionable material, Hollywood actually adds more of it.  More sex.  More nudity.  More violence.  Appeals to the lowest common denominator.

[spurly]

Annie reminded me of something on the \"Bleep\" thread.

Ever go to the video store and see the movies that are described as \"UNRATED VERSION\"?  Instead of editing out the objectionable material, Hollywood actually adds more of it.  More sex.  More nudity.  More violence.  Appeals to the lowest common denominator.

ANd what bothers me is that all they have are the unrated versions, so if you want the other version you are out of luck.

[Son of a Preacher Man]

Interesting list.  Perhaps more folks are making better decisions than we think.  Since the dollars are going where they are, what do you think Hollywood's motivation is for pushing the more risque movies so hard?

Unfortunately, most producers take scripts fully intended to be R-rated scripts and try to \"tame\" them down to PG-13, hence Austin Powers.  It cuts both ways, but the fact of the matter is that most R-rated scripts get the works down to PG-13 these days.   The push right now is to squeak in under the PG-13, and not the other way around.

[Son of a Preacher Man]

Annie reminded me of something on the \"Bleep\" thread.

Ever go to the video store and see the movies that are described as \"UNRATED VERSION\"?  Instead of editing out the objectionable material, Hollywood actually adds more of it.  More sex.  More nudity.  More violence.  Appeals to the lowest common denominator.

Unrated versions seldome contain \"more\" nudity or language or what have.  Of course, the marketing ploy is to make people think that's why it's unrated.  But actually it just means the cut footage  was not rated by the MPAA.  Technically most DVD's conatain footage that would make it \"unrated.\"

There are exceptions, of course.  

But the the bottom line is exactly what Tidbit is refering to here--the appeal is to the lowest common denomenator.

[Son of a Preacher Man]

HELLO, SOAPM--

Here's an idea.  I will agree to pay you for the privilege of editing your movie.  I pay $20 for a first run movie at Wal-mart.  How much extra would you charge me to let me edit your film?  How about $2, I think that's fair and I would willingly pay you $2.

$5?  Okay, that's getting a little steep, but if I'm going to pay to have the movie edited, then I would probably pay you $5 to let me have my way with your movie.

Can we do that?  If not, why not?

You've made it really clear that you resent...

a. My chosen field
b. My stance on the subject of copyright law
c. My defense of said field and copyright law

So what's the point?

[Emily]

But the \"dark side\" is in all of us. I know Jesus is the light but we have not done away with our natural cravings...we have just been forgiven. I do not use my freedom to cover evil. My freedom is there because I love, the opposite of evil, which is the law and what separates the goats from the sheep. My point always is that all our doings do not stop what we are. I choose to love others with Christ's love. I know what is inside of man. God made us this way for a reason. God knows every detail of everything that you pretend doesn't exist as you judge others for their blatant display of what still is in yourself. Hiding and denying is not being Christlike. And as I said before if you do something out of pure motives as unto the Lord then you are clean...no matter how imperfectly you do them. It all still falls short and doesn't really achieve righteousness. Only love does that. Live on the streets and become like those who have no choice because of the harshness of the world. Then you can claim discilpeship. Give sacrificially and then suffer for it and then you may call yourself a disciple. Quit watching R rated movies and you remain the same inside as always.

seekr

Seekr,
I do not understand what you are saying exactly. I agree that we all have a dark side, and we are continually relying on the blood of Jesus to save us from that dark side. From your post it seems like you are saying to reject R movies is to judge others for what is also inside of us. Am I misunderstanding your post?  Help me to understand what you are saying more clearly. Thanks.
Em

[tidbit]

HELLO, SOAPM--

Here's an idea.  I will agree to pay you for the privilege of editing your movie.  I pay $20 for a first run movie at Wal-mart.  How much extra would you charge me to let me edit your film?  How about $2, I think that's fair and I would willingly pay you $2.

$5?  Okay, that's getting a little steep, but if I'm going to pay to have the movie edited, then I would probably pay you $5 to let me have my way with your movie.

Can we do that?  If not, why not?

You've made it really clear that you resent...

a. My chosen field
b. My stance on the subject of copyright law
c. My defense of said field and copyright law

So what's the point?[/color]

Hey, SOAPM, not so fast.  I'm trying to find some middle ground.  Maybe we just need to get the compensation system set up.

So how about it?  All the other rules would apply--no one could make unauthorized copies, no public viewings, films could not be remarketed, etc.

Would that work?


BTW, another thought occurred to me.  Here in Texas, one of the fastest-growing bookstore chains is 'Half-Priced Books', which is a glorified used bookstore.  I could spend hours there.  I think they probably sell used DVD's.  I know they sell used books, music, etc.  They're making a ton of money on books, and I bet they're not paying the authors or publishing companies one red cent.  Am I right?  What's your take on that, and how does their capitalization on your work product differ from the guy I pay to modify my movie?  Thanks.

[Nevertheless]

And what about all of the used videos/dvds sold in flea markets, garage sales, and on Ebay?

[Skip]

Interesting question.
How does intellectual property become \"used\"?

[Nevertheless]

Interesting question.
How does intellectual property become \"used\"?

Perhaps this is the crux of the disagreement.  Books, videos, and DVDs are not just intellectual property.  There is a concrete, physical item which changes possession and ownership upon purchase.  But just what am I allowed to do with that item I own?  Laws regulate the use of all sorts of property.  For instance, I can own a gun, but I cannot use it in a manner which threatens the life, liberty or property of another.

So the question that needs to be answered is, when I buy a movie, what am I legally allowed to do with that video or DVD, and, more importantly, what should I be allowed to do with it?[/color]

[Jimbob]

My wife lived in England, and understood all the British curses that got by the censors just because they weren't American curses.  Austin Powers is anything but tame.  The second title contains slang that in England is the equivalent of our F-word.

[Jimbob]

So the question that needs to be answered is, when I buy a movie, what am I legally allowed to do with that video or DVD, and, more importantly, what should I be allowed to do with it?

That is defined in the written agreement that hardly anyone bothers to read, but still legally agrees to with purchase.

[Son of a Preacher Man]

While I am glad that this topic has sparked such a roaring debate--and I'd love to be right in the middle of it folks, I really would--I'm sorta second-in-command on a film festival this weekend.

Which features a film I reviewed for GCM entitled \"Unnoticed.\"

All debate aside, please pray that \"Unnoticed\" will find distribution.  I hope it is a film you all will be able to see in the near future.  It is an outstanding film by any standard and one with strong Christian themes throughout.  

Anyway, I won't be around much until next week, but I'll catch up with you all then.