Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.

[Amo]

It seems I posted two separate replies to DMA from different threads in my last post. My bad.

[Michael2012]

Have you not heard about Jesus and his disciples concerning the Sabbath of the Jews?

Luke 6
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

So, we see clearly what Jesus and his disciples did on the Sabbath.

Look what Jesus said concerning the Sabbath and Himself.

5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Is Jesus the Lord of the SDA Christians, and of Amo?

If so, will you have gone with Christ in plucking the ears of corn on a Sabbath day?

I'm sure you would have. By doing so, will God condemn you?

Now, will you have gone with Christ on a Sunday, or any other day, and do no work and rest with Christ, and worship God?

I'm sure you would have also.

You see how it is now with those whose Lord is Christ and have faith in him?

And so, "Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians".

Far from it.

In a different sense, yes, if worship is not in faith and not in the Spirit. All then is in vain.

[Amo]

Have you not heard about Jesus and his disciples concerning the Sabbath of the Jews?

Luke 6
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

So, we see clearly what Jesus and his disciples did on the Sabbath.

Look what Jesus said concerning the Sabbath and Himself.

5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Is Jesus the Lord of the SDA Christians, and of Amo?

If so, will you have gone with Christ in plucking the ears of corn on a Sabbath day?

I'm sure you would have. By doing so, will God condemn you?

Now, will you have gone with Christ on a Sunday, or any other day, and do no work and rest with Christ, and worship God?

I'm sure you would have also.

You see how it is now with those whose Lord is Christ and have faith in him?

And so, "Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians".

Far from it.

In a different sense, yes, if worship is not in faith and not in the Spirit. All then is in vain.

It is not possible to worship on Sunday in any other fashion than any other day, since their is no word of God concerning doing so to have faith in. It may be observed by man made tradition alone. It is absolutely possible to observe the seventh day
Sabbath by faith in God's word because God's word speaks of it many times over and commands the same in God's commandments. It can't get any simpler. Choose to worship and obey God, or choose to worship and obey man, or yourself basically. Sunday worship has been forced upon humanity many times over throughout history by those who would exalt man made traditions above the word of God and is forced upon many still today. All the while these same people willing to force others to observe their tradition, ignore the plain testimony and command of God concerning the seventh day. These things should not be so. 

[Amo]

(More excerpts from-)


A CRITICAL HISTORY
OF
THE SABBATH AND THE SUNDAY
IN THE
CHRISTIAN CHURCH
(SECOND EDITION, REVISED)
BY A. H. LEWIS D. D., LL.D.,
Author of "Biblical Teachings concerning the Sabbath and the Sunday," "History of Sunday Legislation", "Paganism Surviving In Christianity," etc., etc.

 

CHAPTER IX.

POST-APOSTOLIC HISTORY OF THE SABBATH TO THE FOURTH CENTURY.

We have also certain "Remains" of one Archelaus, a Bishop who also wrote against Heresies. His Disputation with Manes dates probably from 280 A.D. In this he speaks as follows: (Sec. 42.)

"Again as to the assertion that the Sabbath has been abolished, we deny that he has abolished it plainly (plane). For he was himself also Lord of the Sabbath. And this, the law's relation to the Sabbath, was like the servant who his charge of the bridegroom's couch, and who prepares the same with all carefulness, and does not suffer it to be disturbed or touched by any stranger, but keeps it intact against the time of the bridegroom's arrival; so that when be is come, the bed may be used as it pleases himself, or as it is granted to those to use it whom he has bidden enter along with him. (Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 20, p. 373.)

Tertullian is more noted as a voluminous writer than as a consistent one. He sometimes advocates no-Sabbathism undisguisedly; but at other times he taught a more Scriptural doctrine. The exact date of his writings against Marcion is unknown, although the first book is fixed at 208 A.D. The fourth book came at a later period. Bishop Kaye supposes his death to have occurred about 220 A.D. We may safely conclude that the fourth book against Marcion appeared during the first quarter of the third century. Chapter 12 of that book is "Concerning Christ's authority over the Sabbath," etc. His conclusions are as follows:

"Thus Christ did not at all rescind the Sabbath. He kept the law thereof, and both in the former case did a work which was beneficial to the life of his disciples (for he indulged them with the relief of food when they were hungry), and in the present instance cured the withered hand, in each case intimating by facts, "I came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it"; although Marcion has gagged his mouth by this word. For even in the case before us he fulfilled the law, while interpreting its condition. [Moreover.] He exhibits in a clear light the different kinds of work, while doing what the law excepts from the sacredness of the Sabbath, [and] while imparting to the Sabbath-day itself, which from the beginning, had been consecrated by the benediction of the Father, an additional sanctity by his own beneficent action. For he furnished to this day divine safeguards - a course which his adversary would have pursued for some other days, to avoid honoring the Creator's Sabbath, and restoring to the Sabbath the works which were proper for it. Since, in like manner, the prophet Elisha, on this day restored to life the dead son of the Shunammite woman, you see, O Pharisee, and you, too, O Marcion, how that it was [proper employment] for the Creator's Sabbaths of old to do good, to save life, not to destroy it; how that Christ introduced nothing new, which was not after the example, the Gentleness, the mercy, and the prediction also of the Creator. For in this very example he fulfills the prophetic announcement of a specific healing: "The weak hands are strengthened," as were also, "the feeble knees," in the sick of the palsy. (Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 7, pp. 219, 220.)

If Tertullian, in the above, contradicts his own words in other places, the ultimate test is not between his inconsistencies, but between his theories and the facts of the Bible. Judged by this standard, the foregoing is essentially correct. Incidental proof that the Sabbath, in its proper character, and under its proper name, continued through the centuries, while no-Sabbathism was developing, is found in the fact that Anatolius, Bishop of Laodicea, who was a mathematician of repute, prepared a Chronology of Easter, evidently to aid in the settlement of that much-discussed question. The date of that work is placed in the latter part of the third century. This "Easter table" uses the terms Sabbath and Lord's-day in their regular order, showing how the names and the days were then held. (Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 14, p. 423.)

The foregoing extracts show that no-Sabbathism did not come in unchallenged, but that it was opposed as a heresy, and that the truth was defended on good and Scriptural grounds. There is no reason to believe that Sunday gained any pre-eminence over the Sabbath, even though it did appeal to the lower elements of men's nature by its festal character, until after the time of Constantine, when it was exalted through civil legislation.

No one claims that the "Longer" form of the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians is genuine. Its date is unknown; but we deem it to belong to the last half of the fourth century, or to the fifth. But we are willing, for sake of the argument, to grant it an Ante-Nicene place, that is, before 325 A.D. Whenever it was written, it shows that at that time the writer taught a just and Scriptural view of Sabbath-observance, and asked for Sunday only a festal character. It was to him the "Queen" of the days because it was a feast as opposed to the Sabbath, the Friday, and the Wednesday, which were held to be sorrowful fasts. In chapter 9 - Long Form - speaking of Christ, the writer says:

"The prophets were his servants, and foresaw him by the Spirit, and waited for him as their Teacher, and expected him as their Lord and Saviour, saving, "He will come and save us." Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat." For say the [holy] oracles, " In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread." But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's-day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]. (Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 3, p. 181.)

The foregoing from authors who wrote previous to the fourth century is fully sustained by the statements of both earlier and later historians.

Socrates, whose work was brought down to 439 A.D., in his Ecclesiastical History (Book 5, chap. 22) tells of the various practices respecting the celebration of Easter, baptism, fasting, marriage, public assemblies and other rites and ceremonies. The references to the Sabbath in this chapter as related to public assemblies and the observance of Easter show that it still held a prominent and in many respects its proper place in the Christian church. He says:

"Such is the difference in the churches on the subject of fasts. Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebais, hold their religious assemblies on the Sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries." (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 132.)

In another place Socrates, speaking of the conflict between the Orthodox Christians and the Arians as to their services and public assembles, says:

"The Arians, as we have said, held their meetings without the city. As often, therefore, as the festal days occurred - I mean Saturday [Sabbath] and Lord's-day - in each week, on which assemblies are usually held in the churches, they congregated within the city gates about the public squares, and sang responsive verses adapted to the Arian heresy. This they did during the greater part of the night; and again in the morning, chanting the same songs which they called responsive, they paraded through the midst of the city, and so passed out of the gates to go to their places of assembly. (Ecc. History, Book 6, chap. 8. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 144.)

Sozomen, a contemporary of Socrates, writing probably ten or fifteen years later (about A.D. 460), has the following:

"Assemblies are not held in all churches on the same time or manner. The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries. The same prayers and psalms are not recited nor the same lections read on the same occasions in all churches." (Ecc. History, Book 7, chap. 19. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 390.)

The reader will readily see why the Sabbath was not observed at Rome and Alexandria. Sozomen wrote nearly one hundred and fifty years after the passage of the first "Sunday Law" by Constantine, and the subsequent enactments against the Sabbath.

Thus men living in the fifth century, and having access to all the existing material, bear testimony to the fact that it was the almost universal custom of the church at that time to observe the Sabbath. Corresponding with the foregoing is the testimony of modern writers.

Lyman Coleman says:

"The observance of the Lord's-day, as the first day of the week, was at first introduced as a separate institution. Both this and the Jewish Sabbath were kept for some time; finally, the latter passed wholly over into the former, which now took the place of the ancient Sabbath of the Israelites. But their Sabbath, the last day of the week, was strictly kept, in connection with that of the first day, for a long time after the overthrow of the temple and its worship. Down even to the fifth century, the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing; until it was wholly discontinued. . . . Both were observed in the Christian church down to the fifth century, with this difference, that in the Eastern church both days were regarded as joyful occasions; but in the Western, the Jewish Sabbath was kept as a fast. (Ancient Christianity Exemplified, chap. 26, sec. 2.)

Heylyn, after giving the words of Ambrose, that he fasted when at Rome on the Sabbath, and when away from Rome did not, adds:

"Nay, which is more, St. Augustine tells us, that many times in Africa, one and the self church, at least the several churches in the self-same province had some that dined upon the Sabbath, and some that fasted. And in this difference it stood a long time together, till, in the end, the Roman church obtained the cause, and Saturday became a fast almost through all the parts of the Western world. I say of the Western world, and of that alone; the Eastern churches being so far from altering their ancient custom, that, in the sixth Council of Constantinople, Anno, 692, they did admonish those of Rome to forbear fasting on that day, upon pain of censure." (Hist. of the Sabbath, part 2, chap. 2, sec. 3.)

King, discussing the passage from Ignatius, of which we have spoken, on page 16 ff, says:

"So that their not Sabbatizing did not exclude their keeping of the Lord's-day, nor the Christian, but only the Judaical observance of the Sabbath, or seventh day; for the Eastern churches, in compliance with the Jewish converts, who were numerous in those parts, performed on the seventh day the same public religious services that they did on the first day, observing both the one and the other, as a festival. Whence Origen enumerates Saturday as one of the four feasts solemnized in his time, though, on the contrary, some of the Western churches, that they might not seem to Judaize, fasted on Saturday. So that, besides the Lord's-day, Saturday was an usual season whereon many churches solomnized their religious services. ("Primitive Church," first published 1691, pp. 126, 127.)

An old work on the "Morality of the Fourth Commandment," by William Twisse, D. D., has the following:

"Yet, for some hundred years in the primitive church, not the Lord's-day only, but the seventh day also, was religiously observed, not by Ebion and Cerinthus only, but by pious Christians also, as Baronius writeth, and Gomarus confesseth, and Rivert also. (P. 9, London, 1641.)

"A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," by Edward Brerewood, Professor in Gresham College, London, has the following:

"And especially because it is certain (and little do you know of the ancient condition of the church if you know it not) that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's-day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." (P. 77, London, 1630.)

The learned Joseph Bingham, says:

"We also find in ancient writers frequent mention made of religious assemblies on the Saturday, or seventh day of the week, which was the Jewish Sabbath. It is not easy to tell either the original of this practice, or the reasons of it, because the writers of the first ages are altogether silent about it. In the Latin churches [excepting Milan] it was kept as a fast; but in all the Greek churches, as a festival; I consider it here only as a day of public divine service, on which, as the authors who mention it assure us, all the same offices were performed as were used to be on the Lord's-day. For Athanasius, who is one of the first that mentions it, says: They met on the Sabbath, not that they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. And Timotheus, one of his successors in the See of Alexandria, says, the communion was administered on this day, as on the Lord's-day. Which were the only days in the week that the Communion was received by the Christians of his time at Alexandria. Socrates is a little more particular about the service; for he says: In their assemblies on this day they celebrated the communion; only the churches of Egypt and Thebais differed in this from the rest of the world, and even from their neighbors at Alexandria, that they had the communion at evening service. In another place, speaking of the churches of Constantinople, in the time of Chrysostom, he reckons Saturday and Lord's-day, the two great weekly festivals, on which they always held church assemblies. And Cassian takes notice of the Egyptian churches that among them the service of the Lord's-day and the Sabbath, was always the same; for they had the lessons then read out of the New Testament only, one out of the Gospels; and the other out of the Epistles or the Acts of the Apostles; whereas, on other days they had them partly out of the Old Testament, and partly out of the New. In another place be observes that in the monasteries of Egypt and Thebais, they had no public assemblies on other days, besides morning and evening, except upon Saturday and the Lord's-day, when they met at, three o'clock, that is, nine in the morning, to celebrate the Communion. (Antiquities of the Christian Church, Book 13, chap. 9, see. 3.)

William Cave, D. D., in a work entitled "Primitive Christianity," testifies as follows:

"Next to the Lord's-day, the Sabbath, or Saturday, for so the word Sabbatum is constantly used in the writings of the fathers when speaking of it as it relates to Christians, was held by them in great veneration, and especially in the Eastern parts, honored with all the public solemnities of religion. For which we are to know, that the Gospel in those parts mainly prevailing amongst the Jews, they being generally the first converts to the Christian faith, they still retained a mighty reverence for the Mosaic institutions, and especially for the Sabbath, as that which had been appointed by God himself (as the memorial of his rest from the work of creation) settled by their great master Moses and celebrated by their ancestors for so many ages as the solemn day of their public worship, and were therefore very loth that it should be wholly antiquated and laid aside. . . . Hence they usually had most parts of divine service performed upon that day; they met together for public prayers, for reading the Scriptures, celebration of the Sacraments, and such like duties. This is plain, not only from some passages in Ignatius, and Clemens, his Constitutions, but from writers of more unquestionable credit and authority. Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria tells us that they assemble on Saturdays, not that they were infected with Judaism, but only to worship Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath; and Socrates speaking of the usual times of their public meeting, calls the Sabbath and the Lord's-day, the weekly festivals on which the congregation was wont to meet in the church for the performance of divine services. Therefore the council of Laodicea amongst other things decreed (Can.16), that upon Saturdays the gospels and other scriptures should be read. . . . Upon this day also, as well as upon Sunday, all fasts were severely prohibited (an infallible argument they counted it a festival day) one Saturday in the year only excepted, viz.: that before Easter day, which was always observed as a solemn fast; things so commonly known as to need no proof. . . . Thus stood the case in the Eastern church; in those in the West we find it somewhat different. Amongst them it was not observed as a religious festival, but kept as a constant fast. The reason whereof (as it is given by Pope Innocent, in an epistle to the Bishop of Eugubium, where he treats of this very case) seems most probable. "If (says he) we commemorate Christ's resurrection, not only at Easter, but every Lord's-day, and fast upon Friday because it was the day of his passion, we ought not to pass by Saturday, which is the middle time between the days of grief and joy; the apostles themselves spending those two days, (viz.) Friday and the Sabbath, in great sorrow and heaviness; and he thinks no doubt ought to be made, but that the apostles fasted upon those two days; whence the church had a tradition, that the sacraments were not to be administered on those days, and therefore concludes that every Saturday, or Sabbath, ought to be kept a fast. To the same purpose the council of Illiberis ordained that a Saturday festival was an error that ought to be reformed, and that men ought to fast on every Sabbath. But, though this seems to have been the general practice, yet it did not obtain in all places of the West alike. In Italy itself, it was otherwise at Milan, where Saturday was a festival; and it is said in the life of Saint Ambrose, who was bishop of that See, that he constantly dined as well upon Saturday as the Lord's-day, and used also upon that day to preach to the people. (P. 117-119, Oxford, 1846.)

Dr. Charles Hase says:

"The Roman church regarded Saturday as a fast day in direct opposition to those who regarded it is a Sabbath. (History of the Christian Church, p. 67, paragraph 69, New York, 1855.)

Rev. James Cragie Robertson states that:

"In memory of our Lord's betrayal and crucifixion the fourth and sixth days of each week were kept as fasts, by abstaining from food until the hour at which he gave up the Ghost, the ninth hour, or 3 P.M. In the manner of observing the seventh day the Eastern church differed from the Western. The Orientals, influenced by the neighborhood of the Jews, and by the ideas of Jewish converts, regarded it as a continuation of the Mosaic Sabbath, and celebrated it almost in the same manner as the Lord's-day; while their brethren in the West - although not until after the time of Tertullian, extended to it the fast of the preceding day. (History of the Church, p. 158, London. 1854.)

Rev. Philip Schaff bears the following testimony:

"The observance of the Sabbath among the Jewish Christians gradually ceased. Yet the Eastern church to this day marks the seventh day of the week (excepting only the Easter Sabbath) by omitting fasting, and by standing in prayer; while the Latin church, in direct opposition to Judaism, made Saturday a fast day. The controversy on this point began as early as the end of the second century. Wednesday, and especially Friday, were devoted to the weekly commemoration of the sufferings and death of the Lord, and observed as days of penance, or watch days, and half fasting, (which lasted till three o'clock in the afternoon.) (History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2, p. 205. New York 1883.)

Neander recognizes the observance of the Sabbath by the church in general during the first three centuries:

"In the Western churches, particularly the Roman, where opposition to Judaism was the prevailing tendency, this very opposition produced the custom of celebrating the Saturday in particular as a fast day. This difference in customs would of course be striking where members of the Oriental church spent their Sabbath-day in the Western church." (History of the Christian religion and church, during the first three centuries, p. 186, Rose's translation. Nearly the same language is used in his General History, Vol. 1, P. 298, Torrey's translation.)

Gieseler bears the following testimony:

"While the Christians of Palestine, who kept the whole Jewish law, celebrated of course all the Jewish festivals, the heathen converts observed only the Sabbath, and, in remembrance of the closing scenes of our Saviour's life, the Passover though without the Jewish superstitions. Besides these, the Sunday, as the day of our Saviour's resurrection, was devoted to religious worship. (Church History, Apostolic Age to A. D. 70, sec. 29.)

In the prolegomena to the "Institutes of John Cassian," which were written about 420 A.D., we find an incidental reference to the practice of the Monks of that time which shows the observance of the Sabbath up to the end of the first quarter of the fifth century even in the Western church. These are the words:

"He was an aged priest who had lived for years the life of an Anchorite, only leaving his cell for the purpose of going to the church, which was five miles off, on Saturday and Sunday, and returning with a large bucket of water on his shoulders to last him for the week. (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 11, p. 187.)

Gregory the Great gives us a glimpse of the position which the Sabbath and Sunday occupied at Rome when he was Pope. He was ordained Sept. 3, 590 A.D., and held the office about fifteen years. The Epistle quoted below dates from the year 602-3 A. D. The first Epistle of Book 13 is addressed "To the Roman Citizens" as follows:

"Gregory, servant of the servants of God, to his most beloved sons the Roman citizens. It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath-day. What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath-day is well as the Lord's-day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord's-day to be kept in reverence; and, because be compels the people to Judaize that be may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed.

For this which is said by the prophet, ye shall bring in no burden through your gates on the Sabbath-day (Jer. 17:24), could be held to as long as it was lawful for the law to be observed according to the letter. But after that the grace of Almighty God, our Lord Jesus Christ has appeared, the commandments of the law which were spoken figuratively cannot be kept according to the letter. For, if anyone says that this about the Sabbath is to be kept, he must needs say that carnal sacrifices are to be offered; he must say too that the commandment about the circumcision of the body is still to be retained. But let him hear the Apostle Paul saying in opposition to him. If ye be circumcised, Christ profiteth you nothing. (Gal. 5: 2.)

We therefore accept spiritually, and hold spiritually this which is written about the Sabbath. For the Sabbath means rest. But we have the true Sabbath in our Redeemer Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ. And who so acknowledges the light of faith in Him, if he draws the sins of concupiscence through his eyes into his soul, he introduces burdens through the gates on the Sabbath-day. We introduce, then, no burden through the gates on the Sabbath-day if we draw no weights of sin through the bodily senses to the soul. For we read that the same our Lord and Redeemer did many works on the Sabbath-day, so that he reproved the Jews, saying, Which of you doth not loose his ox or his ass on the Sabbath-day, and lead him away to watering. (Luke 13:15?) If, then, the very Truth in person commanded that the Sabbath should not be kept according to the letter, whoso keeps the rest of the Sabbath according to the letter of the law, whom else does he contradict but the Truth himself?

Another thing also has been brought to my knowledge; namely that it has been preached to you by perverse men that no one ought to wash on the Lords-day. And indeed if anyone craves to wash for luxury and pleasure, neither on any other day do we allow this to be done. But if it is for bodily need, neither on the Lord's-day do we forbid it. For it is written, No man ever hated his own flesh but nourisheth it and cherisheth it. (Ephe. 5: 29.) And again it is written, Make not provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof. (Romans 13:14.) He, then, who forbids provision for the flesh in the lusts thereof certainly allows it in the needs thereof. For, if it is sin to wash the body on the Lord's-day, neither ought the face to be washed on that day. But if this is allowed for a part of the body, why is it denied for the whole body when need requires? On the Lord's-day, however, there should be a cessation of earthly labor, and attention given in every way to prayers so that if anything is done negligently during the six days, it may be expiated by supplications on the day of the Lord's resurrection. (Epistles, Book 13, Epistle 1, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 13, p. 92.)

Thus appears an unbroken chain of evidence, showing that the Sabbath was generally observed by the Christian church for centuries after Christ. Its decline was more rapid in the Western or Romanized branch of the church, where it was made a sorrowful fast, and where no-Sabbathism was pushed to the front. The Eastern church, less corrupted by Romish influences, retained the Sabbath more nearly after the New Testament conception. Let it be borne in mind also that the writers quoted in this chapter wrote after the rupture between the Jewish and the Pagan elements in the church, which began to occur at the opening of the second century. The evidence here presented shows that even in the West the Sabbath continued to hold its place as late as the seventh century, although condemned by the Catholic church and legislated against. With such facts within the reach of every student of the Sabbath question, it is difficult to understand how men can repeat the assertion so frequently made, that the Sabbath was not observed by Christians after the resurrection of Christ. Inexcusable ignorance, or worse, is the only explanation in such a case

[DMA]

The Scribes and Pharisees claimed Abraham for their father, you claim to be of the original church which began in Jerusalem.

The promise made to the Church by Jesus Himself, as per Matthew 16:18, is a promise that was made to the leadership of Israel in the flesh, i.e. the Scribes and Pharisees (Sanhedrin). Therefore your comparison of the two is a false equivocation.

What church boasts more than any other of being the original, than the Church of Rome?

Since the Church didn't start in Rome but in Jerusalem, the Church of Rome can't boast of being the original Church.

Even if you won't admit you are of the Church of Rome, your use of her tactics and false claims ties you to her.

You're free to believe whatever you wish, of course, but I'm not Roman Catholic.

Conformity to the teachings of Christ and the apostles recorded for us in the New Testament, is the only rule and evidence of authentic Christianity.

No Amo, rather it's conformity to your interpretation of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles that is your only rule for determining where authentic Christianity is. You have set yourself up as the judge of the Church, passing judgment on her and finding her wanting because she doesn't teach what you think she should teach. The original Church is found in the city where it all started, namely Jerusalem. But since you disagree with what that Church teaches you judge it as apostate and not the Church at all! This is about you Amo, not what Christ or His holy Apostles taught. It is your pride of opinion that keeps you from Christ's Church.

So, you are testifying that you are not Catholic, or are Catholic but do not agree with the teachings of the church. Is this correct?

Depends. What "church" are you be talking about here?

Yet you are the one dodging the questions above by your above accusation. This accusation coming from one who will not even answer the question of what denomination they belong to.

Desperate attempt by a desperate person is desperately obvious. Again, a classic attempt to evade the discussion at hand, by turning the focus on one's opponent rather than on the arguments.

Your arguments have already been addressed and proved to be built upon faulty premise.

Ah, but disagreement with one's opponent does not proof make, Amo. No, you must continue to show why my arguments are wrong. If they are wrong, then I will amend them, as I'm certainly aware that I'm not infallible. However, you haven't done this satisfactorily yet. So, please, leave off from your inquiry regarding my affiliation that you seem so obsessed with, and get back to the argument at hand!

Since you won't directly answer that question, I suppose we can go another rout. Do you believe the following testimony from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

What the Roman Catholic Church teaches or doesn't teach is of no concern to me regarding our arguments Amo. All I'm concerned with in our arguments is what do the scriptures teach.

If you do believe the above statement and are Roman Catholic, then your arguments are not in line with your church's teachings. You are either arguing things you yourself do not even believe, or you reject the teachings of your own denomination. Which is it?

This all must be truly frustrating for you Amo. Truly.

If you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic, then you are at odds with about a billion people who also claim they are the original Church.

Well, since you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic yourself, then you're at odds with about a billion people. But I doubt you lose any sleep over it. Or am I wrong?

None of whom ever even addressed anything like what you propose regarding the fourth commandment.

Really Amo? I'm the very first one to articulate that Christ fulfilled the sabbath by resting in the tomb on Holy Saturday from all of His bodily labor, keeping the sabbath perfectly in His death; and that we enter into His sabbath rest through baptism into His death, being raised to newness of life, resting always from our works of sin and evil, and living in righteousness toward God? You give me way too much credit, Amo.

All SDA's pretty much agree that working for a living on the Sabbath is not resting according to the commandment. That still leaves a whole lot to be decided by the individual regarding what one should or should not do on the Sabbath, and opinions vary widely. Each must decide for themselves according to their own understanding and or circumstance. Some must work their normal jobs on Sabbath as well. Doctors, nurses, police, military, and such can't just shut down on Sabbath. These people must work these details out on their own as I did when in the military. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear while perfectly observing the Sabbath that a list of do's and don'ts regarding it is missing the point. The commandment itself does no such thing.

If only you had this most charitable spirit toward those who are not Seventh-day Adventists. But alas, if the accuser of the brethren himself doesn't have a charitable spirit toward us, then I shouldn't expect that you would either.

I don't need or depend upon the laws accusing Sabbath keepers of Judaizing to prove the existence of seventh day Christian Sabbath keepers. It is historical fact, which you simply deny. The laws mentioned though, do reveal that there were still Christian Sabbath keepers when they were given. I don't know how many there were that mentioned Judaizing, that would require some study. Those that I do have readily available though, do again as suggested, reveal that Christians were still observing the seventh day Sabbath when they were passed or declared.

Well, you said there were, and I quote, "many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing", and that this, again I quote, "reveals that many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop." Now, when you're challenged to provide proof of your assertion, you say you're not sure how many. Perhaps then, Amo, if you're not sure of something you shouldn't make declarations that appear as though you're certain. That would be wisdom.

The fact of the matter is that there weren't "many early Sunday laws". There were times when the Church condemned Judaizing, but that extends as far back as the New Testament itself (cf. the book of Galatians, Acts 15, etc.). And yes, there have always been people doing things contrary to the Church's teaching, as there are today. These practices were variously condemned by the Church since they could lead people away from Christ and the Gospel. Keeping the sabbath in the manner of the Jews, by abstaining from work because one thinks it is a sin to work on that day, leads a person away from Christ and His fulfillment of the sabbath. It places a person under the burden of the law which cannot justify anyone in the sight of God. It counts the blood of the New Covenant as an unclean thing. It destroys the reality that Christ has set us free from the ministry of death and condemnation that was written and engraved on stone (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:7,9). After all, if a person keeps the sabbath by not working on Saturday because they think that they will incur sin if they do work, then they are keeping the sabbath in order not to sin, and thus attempting to establish their own righteousness in the eyes of God. And then this belief of working on the sabbath being sinful leads to the natural consequence of them judging their brothers and sisters just as the Seventh-day Adventists have done since their beginning. It leads to nothing good and everything bad and evil. Thus, for a Christian to Judaize by not working on the sabbath due to perceived sin if they do leads to apostasy from Christ Himself. This is why the Church in her wisdom and love condemned Judaizing, because it endangers a person's salvation.

The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)

The above decree put forth by an apostate "Christian" Synod, declares authority to cut people who keep the seventh day Sabbath off from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. Apart from being a blasphemous statement presuming authority which belongs to Christ alone, it reveals that there were Christians still keeping the seventh day Sabbath. These for-runners of the system of anti-Christ were far more guilty of sin in presuming authority to cut people off people from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, than anyone keeping the fourth commandment in their day. The decree reveals the extent of apostasy some "Christians" had reached by the fourth century.

Ignoring for a moment your use of quotation marks around the word Christian, which shows your uncharitable and judgmental spirit, this decree was from a local council held in Laodicea, and is not hardly referred to by anyone besides sabbatarians, who obviously have an axe to grind. Perhaps you should quote from an ecumenical council instead to see what the Church across the world held to, like what the second Nicene council said about this in AD 787:

Since some of those who come from the religion of the Hebrews mistakenly think to make a mockery of Christ who is God, pretending to become Christians, but denying Christ in private by both secretly continuing to observe the sabbath and maintaining other Jewish practices, we decree that they shall not be received to communion or at prayer or into the church, but rather let them openly be Hebrews according to their own religion; they should not baptize their children or buy, or enter into possession of, a slave. But if one of them makes his conversion with a sincere faith and heart, and pronounces his confession wholeheartedly, disclosing their practices and objects in the hope that others may be refuted and corrected, such a person should be welcomed and baptized along with his children, and care should be taken that they abandon Hebrew practices. However if they are not of this sort, they should certainly not be welcomed.

Do you see the reason given why Judaizing is condemned by the Church? It's just as I said before. People who do this are denying Christ. And how are they denying Christ? By living as though Christ has not set us free from the condemnation of the law. After all, they are keeping the sabbath, as well as the other practices in the law, because they think they are sinning if they don't. This is called condemnation, and this is what the law becomes for the one who thinks this way. So they try to keep the sabbath and the other practices in order not to sin, thus attempting to establish their own righteousness apart from Christ. This is the sin, the blasphemy, because it's the turning away from Christ and His righteousness.

Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?" Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.

Here we have the testimony of anti-Christ himself as the leader of the system of anti-Christ still addressing the so called problem of Christians observing the seventh day Sabbath some time between 590 and 604.

Tell me Amo, is it ever right for someone to forbid others from doing anything on the sabbath? Is this what Adventists practice, going around and forcibly preventing others from doing anything on the sabbath? After all, that's what the word "forbid" means, to forcibly prevent something from happening. Is this what Adventists do, Amo? Is this the Christian thing to do? Of course not, because it's not right, and you know it. And since it's not right, then why do you condemn Pope St. Gregory the Great as being antichrist for condemning that which even Seventh-Adventists wouldn't engage in??

Since you apparently think highly of Irenaeus, what do you say of his following refutation of youir false accusations that Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment?

"For the Lord vindicated Abraham's posterity by loosing them from bondage and calling them to salvation, as he did in the case of the woman whom be healed, saying openly to those who had not faith like Abraham, "ye hypocrites, doth not each one of you on the Sabbath-days loose his ox or his ass, and lead him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath-days?" It is clear, therefore, that he loosed and vivified those who believed in him as Abraham did, doing nothing contrary to the law when he healed upon the Sabbath-day. For the law did not prohibit men from being healed upon the Sabbaths: [on the contrary,] it even circumcised them upon that day, and gave command that the offices should be performed by the priests for the people; yea it did not disallow the healing even of dumb animals. Both at Siloam and on frequent subsequent occasions, did he perform cures upon the Sabbath; and for this reason many used to resort to him on the Sabbath-days. For the law commanded them to abstain from every servile work, that is from all grasping after wealth which is procured by trading and by other worldly business; but it exhorted them to attend to the exercises of the soul, which consist in reflection, and to addresses of a beneficial kind for their neighbor's benefit. And, therefore, the Lord reproveth those who unjustly blamed him for having healed upon the Sabbath-days. For he did not make void, but fulfilled the law, by performing the offices of the high priest, propitiating God for men, and cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, and himself suffering death, that exiled man might go forth from condemnation, and might return without fear to his own inheritance." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4, chapter 8, Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 5, p. 397.

I'll bet you did not know that Irenaeus refutes your false claims that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment, did you? You quoted him elsewhere. What do you think of his above words, which contradict your testimony, and are much the same as my arguments against your testimony?

You would've lost that bet, Amo, since I've read his Against Heresies and know about this quote of his. Does he contradict what I've said? Yes and no. Yes he disagrees with me in these instances he mentions, but he agrees with me that the disciples transgressed the sabbath when they plucked the ears of corn to eat in Matthew 12:1 (cf. Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 3), but they were blameless in doing so. Furthermore, and more importantly, he agrees with me in my points regarding the meaning of the sabbath for the Christian. Hear what he says:

But the Sabbaths taught that we should continue day by day in God's service. "For we have been counted," says the Apostle Paul, "all the day long as sheep for the slaughter; " that is, consecrated [to God], and ministering continually to our faith, and persevering in it, and abstaining from all avarice, and not acquiring or possessing treasures upon earth. Moreover, the Sabbath of God, that is, the kingdom, was, as it were, indicated by created things; in which [kingdom], the man who shall have persevered in serving God shall, in a state of rest, partake of God's table.

2. And that man was not justified by these things, but that they were given as a sign to the people, this fact shows,-that Abraham himself, without circumcision and without observance of Sabbaths, "believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God."

And,

Since, then, by this calling life has been given (us), and God has summed up again for Himself in us the faith of Abraham, we ought not to turn back any more--I mean, to the first legislation (i.e. Moses). For we have received the Lord of the Law, the Son of God; and by faith in Him we learn to love God with all our heart, and our neighbour as ourselves. Now the love of God is far from all sin, and love to the neighbour worketh no ill to the neighbour.

Wherefore also we need not the Law as a tutor. Behold, with the Father we speak, and in His presence we stand, being

children in malice , and grown strong in all righteousness and soberness. For no longer shall the Law say,

Do not commit adultery, to him who has no desire at all for another's wife; and

Thou shalt not kill, to him who has put away from himself all anger and enmity; (and) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's field or ox or ass, to those who have no care at all for earthly things, but store up the heavenly fruits: nor

An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, to him who counts no man his enemy, but all men his neighbors, and therefore cannot stretch out his hand at all for vengeance. It will not require tithes of him who consecrates all his possessions to God, leaving father and mother and all his kindred, and following the Word of God. And there will be no command to remain idle for one day of rest, to him who perpetually keeps sabbath, that is to say, who in the temple of God, which is man's body, does service to God, and in every hour works righteousness.

So, while St. Irenaeus does disagree with me on some things regarding the sabbath passages of the Gospels, he and I are in agreement in the Christian understanding of the sabbath. So no, Amo, St. Irenaeus wasn't the silver bullet against me you were hoping he was. Try again.

Why do you always add the word historic to church, which the scriptures never do?

Simple. Because the Church began as an actual physical and historical (meaning existing in actual history) community in the actual physical and historical city of Jerusalem. And that Church which has existed as an actual physical and historical community in the actual physical and historical city of Jerusalem is still there. It hasn't disappeared Amo, much to your consternation, I'm sure. Deny it all you want, but the Church is still there. It still exists. And Christ said the gates of hades (i.e. corruption) would not overcome it.

The church is unquestionably referred to as the temple of God in the NT. There is no other temple of the NT. You may of course enlighten us, if this is wrong. Please do.

Well Amo, I count four temples in the New Testament:  The historic temple in Jerusalem (cf. Acts 2:46), the temple of our body (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:19), the spiritual temple of the body of Christ (cf. Ephesians 2:20-21), and the temple in heaven (cf. Revelation 7:15). Since the temple in heaven is where God dwells, it would be impossible for St. Paul to be referring to that one. It is equally impossible for St. Paul to be referring to the temple of our body or the spiritual temple of the body of Christ which is the Church, because the Church is not a place but a people. So, out of these four temples, the only one that could possibly have been referred to by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the historic temple in Jerusalem which was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70. Either his prophecy was fulfilled before then, or, as quite a few believe, the temple will be rebuilt and the man of sin will be revealed at a future time.

The seventh day Sabbath was not done away with by Christ or the apostles, it was replaced over time by apostate "Christianity".

You're right Amo, it wasn't done away with by Christ. It was fulfilled by Him in His death. And we can enter into His sabbath rest by dying with Him in baptism, and being raised to newness of life to live continually in righteousness toward Him, keeping His sabbath perpetually, just as His sabbath law in Moses's writings was meant to teach. There is nothing forbidding you from entering into His rest, Amo, except your unbelief. May God free you of this burden you've placed upon yourself. I believe He will, because His mercy never fails!

[Michael2012]

Have you not heard about Jesus and his disciples concerning the Sabbath of the Jews?

Luke 6
1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

So, we see clearly what Jesus and his disciples did on the Sabbath.

Look what Jesus said concerning the Sabbath and Himself.

5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Is Jesus the Lord of the SDA Christians, and of Amo?

If so, will you have gone with Christ in plucking the ears of corn on a Sabbath day?

I'm sure you would have. By doing so, will God condemn you?

Now, will you have gone with Christ on a Sunday, or any other day, and do no work and rest with Christ, and worship God?

I'm sure you would have also.

You see how it is now with those whose Lord is Christ and have faith in him?

And so, "Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians".

Far from it.

In a different sense, yes, if worship is not in faith and not in the Spirit. All then is in vain.

It is not possible to worship on Sunday in any other fashion than any other day, since their is no word of God concerning doing so to have faith in. It may be observed by man made tradition alone. It is absolutely possible to observe the seventh day
Sabbath by faith in God's word because God's word speaks of it many times over and commands the same in God's commandments. It can't get any simpler. Choose to worship and obey God, or choose to worship and obey man, or yourself basically. Sunday worship has been forced upon humanity many times over throughout history by those who would exalt man made traditions above the word of God and is forced upon many still today. All the while these same people willing to force others to observe their tradition, ignore the plain testimony and command of God concerning the seventh day. These things should not be so.

Below is what I posted on the other thread which is closely related to this discussion:

I got this from the https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/living/the-sabbath/

"The gracious Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Exod. 20:8-11; 31:13-17; Lev.23:32; Deut. 5:12-15; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Ezek. 20:12, 20; Matt. 12:1-12; Mark 1:32; Luke 4:16; Heb. 4:1-11.)"

Consider the cited verses:

Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.

Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.

But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.

Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.

Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.     

With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.   

[Amo]

Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.

It is just as that created on every other day, God spoke, and the thing was. All that He created is still here, and so is the day which He blessed and sanctified. God alone can undo, that which He has done. All that He commanded and spoke into existence remains to this day by His own design, sustenance, and intervention.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light............................................

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.................................................

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so..............................................................................

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so....................................................

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.................................................

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.............................................................

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so................................................................

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them................................................

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so....................

Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

In all of the above, God spoke the command, and it was so. This includes His blessing upon the seventh day, and His sanctification of that day. Humanity cannot change this. The day is blessed and sanctified and will be until God Himself changes that. Isaiah testifies that the sabbath will be kept in the new heaven and new earth, how say you and others that it no longer is? You presume authority which is infinitely beyond your grasp. You cannot change or do away with that which God has established.

Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.

But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.

Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.

Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.

Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?

Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.

You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.

[current occupant2]

.


Genesis 2:1-3 does NOT say that God blessed the 7th day on that 7th day. 

The promotion of saturday worship will be the down fall of many who say they are Christians but are not.

They are putting their faith in the day rather than Christ.

[Amo]

.


Genesis 2:1-3 does NOT say that God blessed the 7th day on that 7th day. 

The promotion of saturday worship will be the down fall of many who say they are Christians but are not.

They are putting their faith in the day rather than Christ.

Another lie and false accusation. My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ created, sustains, redeemed, and continues to intercede for all of humanity. He is all in all, and Lord of the Sabbath.

The observance of the seventh day Sabbath is therefore a sign in these last days especially, that one is a true worshiper of the true God. It is a sign that those who observe it believe that God is the creator of this world in and through his Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (Exo. 20:8-11, & John 1:1-3 & 14). That He sustains this world and all life in it, in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ (Col. 1: 16&17). That He has saved this world in rebellion in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and there is salvation in no other (John 3:16, & Acts 4:12). That salvation comes to the believer by entering into God's rest in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Which very thing the Sabbath itself is a sign of (Matt. 11:28&29, & Heb. 4). That He has provided continual intercession for all of humanity in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ (Heb. 4:14-16, & Heb. 7:22-28). That He will sanctify, yes make holy, those who have faith in Him in and through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. Which thing also the Sabbath is a sign of (Exo. 31:12-18,  John 17:17-19, Acts 26:15-18, 1 Cor. 6:9-11, Heb. 10:7-17). That all of the above was and is according to the eternal purpose of God in and through His Son Jesus Christ. That is in the creation, preservation, and redemption of this world (Eph. 3:9-12).

The Sabbath is a sign that those who observe it believe that Jesus Christ is all in all. That He created the world. He sustains the world. He has redeemed the world. He ever liveth to make intercession for the world. He sanctifies His own in the world through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whom he sends (John 14:26, 15:26&27). He came to this world as one of us, and is our example for living. He is the living word of God. As he himself has said "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matt. 4:4). 

Those who observe the seventh day Sabbath, do so strictly by faith in the word of God. There is nothing about the seventh day that separates it from any of the rest, save the word of God pertaining to it. Nothing out of the ordinary happens on this day to anyone accept the believer.  The believer accepts by faith, that the day is blessed and holy, and therefore acts accordingly.  The result is first the exaltation of God, by the obedience of those who submit to His rightful and trustworthy authority. The second, is the establishment of that authority in the life of the believer, and the essential reminder to the believer of their proper place in relation to our infinite God. Thus the day is a reminder that God is all in all to those whom He has created. A day to set aside all else, and rest in the word of our creator, sustainer, and redeemer. The observance of the seventh day Sabbath is a perfect example of faith in God's word, in action. We will close this chapter with the message of the first angel.

Revelation 14 6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

[Amo]

The Scribes and Pharisees claimed Abraham for their father, you claim to be of the original church which began in Jerusalem.

The promise made to the Church by Jesus Himself, as per Matthew 16:18, is a promise that was made to the leadership of Israel in the flesh, i.e. the Scribes and Pharisees (Sanhedrin). Therefore your comparison of the two is a false equivocation.

What church boasts more than any other of being the original, than the Church of Rome?

Since the Church didn't start in Rome but in Jerusalem, the Church of Rome can't boast of being the original Church.

Even if you won't admit you are of the Church of Rome, your use of her tactics and false claims ties you to her.

You're free to believe whatever you wish, of course, but I'm not Roman Catholic.

Conformity to the teachings of Christ and the apostles recorded for us in the New Testament, is the only rule and evidence of authentic Christianity.

No Amo, rather it's conformity to your interpretation of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles that is your only rule for determining where authentic Christianity is. You have set yourself up as the judge of the Church, passing judgment on her and finding her wanting because she doesn't teach what you think she should teach. The original Church is found in the city where it all started, namely Jerusalem. But since you disagree with what that Church teaches you judge it as apostate and not the Church at all! This is about you Amo, not what Christ or His holy Apostles taught. It is your pride of opinion that keeps you from Christ's Church.

So, you are testifying that you are not Catholic, or are Catholic but do not agree with the teachings of the church. Is this correct?

Depends. What "church" are you be talking about here?

Yet you are the one dodging the questions above by your above accusation. This accusation coming from one who will not even answer the question of what denomination they belong to.

Desperate attempt by a desperate person is desperately obvious. Again, a classic attempt to evade the discussion at hand, by turning the focus on one's opponent rather than on the arguments.

Your arguments have already been addressed and proved to be built upon faulty premise.

Ah, but disagreement with one's opponent does not proof make, Amo. No, you must continue to show why my arguments are wrong. If they are wrong, then I will amend them, as I'm certainly aware that I'm not infallible. However, you haven't done this satisfactorily yet. So, please, leave off from your inquiry regarding my affiliation that you seem so obsessed with, and get back to the argument at hand!

Since you won't directly answer that question, I suppose we can go another rout. Do you believe the following testimony from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

What the Roman Catholic Church teaches or doesn't teach is of no concern to me regarding our arguments Amo. All I'm concerned with in our arguments is what do the scriptures teach.

If you do believe the above statement and are Roman Catholic, then your arguments are not in line with your church's teachings. You are either arguing things you yourself do not even believe, or you reject the teachings of your own denomination. Which is it?

This all must be truly frustrating for you Amo. Truly.

If you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic, then you are at odds with about a billion people who also claim they are the original Church.

Well, since you don't believe it and are not Roman Catholic yourself, then you're at odds with about a billion people. But I doubt you lose any sleep over it. Or am I wrong?

None of whom ever even addressed anything like what you propose regarding the fourth commandment.

Really Amo? I'm the very first one to articulate that Christ fulfilled the sabbath by resting in the tomb on Holy Saturday from all of His bodily labor, keeping the sabbath perfectly in His death; and that we enter into His sabbath rest through baptism into His death, being raised to newness of life, resting always from our works of sin and evil, and living in righteousness toward God? You give me way too much credit, Amo.

All SDA's pretty much agree that working for a living on the Sabbath is not resting according to the commandment. That still leaves a whole lot to be decided by the individual regarding what one should or should not do on the Sabbath, and opinions vary widely. Each must decide for themselves according to their own understanding and or circumstance. Some must work their normal jobs on Sabbath as well. Doctors, nurses, police, military, and such can't just shut down on Sabbath. These people must work these details out on their own as I did when in the military. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear while perfectly observing the Sabbath that a list of do's and don'ts regarding it is missing the point. The commandment itself does no such thing.

If only you had this most charitable spirit toward those who are not Seventh-day Adventists. But alas, if the accuser of the brethren himself doesn't have a charitable spirit toward us, then I shouldn't expect that you would either.

I don't need or depend upon the laws accusing Sabbath keepers of Judaizing to prove the existence of seventh day Christian Sabbath keepers. It is historical fact, which you simply deny. The laws mentioned though, do reveal that there were still Christian Sabbath keepers when they were given. I don't know how many there were that mentioned Judaizing, that would require some study. Those that I do have readily available though, do again as suggested, reveal that Christians were still observing the seventh day Sabbath when they were passed or declared.

Well, you said there were, and I quote, "many early Sunday laws specifically addressed not working on Sabbaths as Judaizing", and that this, again I quote, "reveals that many were still doing so which the apostate church was trying to stop." Now, when you're challenged to provide proof of your assertion, you say you're not sure how many. Perhaps then, Amo, if you're not sure of something you shouldn't make declarations that appear as though you're certain. That would be wisdom.

The fact of the matter is that there weren't "many early Sunday laws". There were times when the Church condemned Judaizing, but that extends as far back as the New Testament itself (cf. the book of Galatians, Acts 15, etc.). And yes, there have always been people doing things contrary to the Church's teaching, as there are today. These practices were variously condemned by the Church since they could lead people away from Christ and the Gospel. Keeping the sabbath in the manner of the Jews, by abstaining from work because one thinks it is a sin to work on that day, leads a person away from Christ and His fulfillment of the sabbath. It places a person under the burden of the law which cannot justify anyone in the sight of God. It counts the blood of the New Covenant as an unclean thing. It destroys the reality that Christ has set us free from the ministry of death and condemnation that was written and engraved on stone (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:7,9). After all, if a person keeps the sabbath by not working on Saturday because they think that they will incur sin if they do work, then they are keeping the sabbath in order not to sin, and thus attempting to establish their own righteousness in the eyes of God. And then this belief of working on the sabbath being sinful leads to the natural consequence of them judging their brothers and sisters just as the Seventh-day Adventists have done since their beginning. It leads to nothing good and everything bad and evil. Thus, for a Christian to Judaize by not working on the sabbath due to perceived sin if they do leads to apostasy from Christ Himself. This is why the Church in her wisdom and love condemned Judaizing, because it endangers a person's salvation.

The Synod of Laodicea - 343-381 A.D. - furnishes a decree which is quoted by many:
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday [Sabbatum is always used for the Sabbath and is translated Saturday in the English edition of Hefele], but shall work on that day; but the Lord's-day they shall especially honor, and as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing they shall be shut out from Christ. (Canon 29, Hefele, Vol. 2, p. 316.)

The above decree put forth by an apostate "Christian" Synod, declares authority to cut people who keep the seventh day Sabbath off from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ Himself. Apart from being a blasphemous statement presuming authority which belongs to Christ alone, it reveals that there were Christians still keeping the seventh day Sabbath. These for-runners of the system of anti-Christ were far more guilty of sin in presuming authority to cut people off people from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, than anyone keeping the fourth commandment in their day. The decree reveals the extent of apostasy some "Christians" had reached by the fourth century.

Ignoring for a moment your use of quotation marks around the word Christian, which shows your uncharitable and judgmental spirit, this decree was from a local council held in Laodicea, and is not hardly referred to by anyone besides sabbatarians, who obviously have an axe to grind. Perhaps you should quote from an ecumenical council instead to see what the Church across the world held to, like what the second Nicene council said about this in AD 787:

Since some of those who come from the religion of the Hebrews mistakenly think to make a mockery of Christ who is God, pretending to become Christians, but denying Christ in private by both secretly continuing to observe the sabbath and maintaining other Jewish practices, we decree that they shall not be received to communion or at prayer or into the church, but rather let them openly be Hebrews according to their own religion; they should not baptize their children or buy, or enter into possession of, a slave. But if one of them makes his conversion with a sincere faith and heart, and pronounces his confession wholeheartedly, disclosing their practices and objects in the hope that others may be refuted and corrected, such a person should be welcomed and baptized along with his children, and care should be taken that they abandon Hebrew practices. However if they are not of this sort, they should certainly not be welcomed.

Do you see the reason given why Judaizing is condemned by the Church? It's just as I said before. People who do this are denying Christ. And how are they denying Christ? By living as though Christ has not set us free from the condemnation of the law. After all, they are keeping the sabbath, as well as the other practices in the law, because they think they are sinning if they don't. This is called condemnation, and this is what the law becomes for the one who thinks this way. So they try to keep the sabbath and the other practices in order not to sin, thus attempting to establish their own righteousness apart from Christ. This is the sin, the blasphemy, because it's the turning away from Christ and His righteousness.

Pope Gregory I (AD 590-604) said :
"Gregory, bishop by the grace of God to his well-beloved sons, the Roman citizens: It has come to me that certain men of perverse spirit have disseminated among you things depraved and opposed to the holy faith, so that they forbid anything to be done on the day of the Sabbath. What shall I call them except preachers of anti-Christ?" Epistles of Gregory I, b.13, epist.1, found in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.

Here we have the testimony of anti-Christ himself as the leader of the system of anti-Christ still addressing the so called problem of Christians observing the seventh day Sabbath some time between 590 and 604.

Tell me Amo, is it ever right for someone to forbid others from doing anything on the sabbath? Is this what Adventists practice, going around and forcibly preventing others from doing anything on the sabbath? After all, that's what the word "forbid" means, to forcibly prevent something from happening. Is this what Adventists do, Amo? Is this the Christian thing to do? Of course not, because it's not right, and you know it. And since it's not right, then why do you condemn Pope St. Gregory the Great as being antichrist for condemning that which even Seventh-Adventists wouldn't engage in??

Since you apparently think highly of Irenaeus, what do you say of his following refutation of youir false accusations that Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment?

"For the Lord vindicated Abraham's posterity by loosing them from bondage and calling them to salvation, as he did in the case of the woman whom be healed, saying openly to those who had not faith like Abraham, "ye hypocrites, doth not each one of you on the Sabbath-days loose his ox or his ass, and lead him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath-days?" It is clear, therefore, that he loosed and vivified those who believed in him as Abraham did, doing nothing contrary to the law when he healed upon the Sabbath-day. For the law did not prohibit men from being healed upon the Sabbaths: [on the contrary,] it even circumcised them upon that day, and gave command that the offices should be performed by the priests for the people; yea it did not disallow the healing even of dumb animals. Both at Siloam and on frequent subsequent occasions, did he perform cures upon the Sabbath; and for this reason many used to resort to him on the Sabbath-days. For the law commanded them to abstain from every servile work, that is from all grasping after wealth which is procured by trading and by other worldly business; but it exhorted them to attend to the exercises of the soul, which consist in reflection, and to addresses of a beneficial kind for their neighbor's benefit. And, therefore, the Lord reproveth those who unjustly blamed him for having healed upon the Sabbath-days. For he did not make void, but fulfilled the law, by performing the offices of the high priest, propitiating God for men, and cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, and himself suffering death, that exiled man might go forth from condemnation, and might return without fear to his own inheritance." (Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4, chapter 8, Ante-Nicene Library, Vol. 5, p. 397.

I'll bet you did not know that Irenaeus refutes your false claims that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath commandment, did you? You quoted him elsewhere. What do you think of his above words, which contradict your testimony, and are much the same as my arguments against your testimony?

You would've lost that bet, Amo, since I've read his Against Heresies and know about this quote of his. Does he contradict what I've said? Yes and no. Yes he disagrees with me in these instances he mentions, but he agrees with me that the disciples transgressed the sabbath when they plucked the ears of corn to eat in Matthew 12:1 (cf. Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 8, Paragraph 3), but they were blameless in doing so. Furthermore, and more importantly, he agrees with me in my points regarding the meaning of the sabbath for the Christian. Hear what he says:

But the Sabbaths taught that we should continue day by day in God's service. "For we have been counted," says the Apostle Paul, "all the day long as sheep for the slaughter; " that is, consecrated [to God], and ministering continually to our faith, and persevering in it, and abstaining from all avarice, and not acquiring or possessing treasures upon earth. Moreover, the Sabbath of God, that is, the kingdom, was, as it were, indicated by created things; in which [kingdom], the man who shall have persevered in serving God shall, in a state of rest, partake of God's table.

2. And that man was not justified by these things, but that they were given as a sign to the people, this fact shows,-that Abraham himself, without circumcision and without observance of Sabbaths, "believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God."

And,

Since, then, by this calling life has been given (us), and God has summed up again for Himself in us the faith of Abraham, we ought not to turn back any more--I mean, to the first legislation (i.e. Moses). For we have received the Lord of the Law, the Son of God; and by faith in Him we learn to love God with all our heart, and our neighbour as ourselves. Now the love of God is far from all sin, and love to the neighbour worketh no ill to the neighbour.

Wherefore also we need not the Law as a tutor. Behold, with the Father we speak, and in His presence we stand, being

children in malice , and grown strong in all righteousness and soberness. For no longer shall the Law say,

Do not commit adultery, to him who has no desire at all for another's wife; and

Thou shalt not kill, to him who has put away from himself all anger and enmity; (and) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's field or ox or ass, to those who have no care at all for earthly things, but store up the heavenly fruits: nor

An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, to him who counts no man his enemy, but all men his neighbors, and therefore cannot stretch out his hand at all for vengeance. It will not require tithes of him who consecrates all his possessions to God, leaving father and mother and all his kindred, and following the Word of God. And there will be no command to remain idle for one day of rest, to him who perpetually keeps sabbath, that is to say, who in the temple of God, which is man's body, does service to God, and in every hour works righteousness.

So, while St. Irenaeus does disagree with me on some things regarding the sabbath passages of the Gospels, he and I are in agreement in the Christian understanding of the sabbath. So no, Amo, St. Irenaeus wasn't the silver bullet against me you were hoping he was. Try again.

Why do you always add the word historic to church, which the scriptures never do?

Simple. Because the Church began as an actual physical and historical (meaning existing in actual history) community in the actual physical and historical city of Jerusalem. And that Church which has existed as an actual physical and historical community in the actual physical and historical city of Jerusalem is still there. It hasn't disappeared Amo, much to your consternation, I'm sure. Deny it all you want, but the Church is still there. It still exists. And Christ said the gates of hades (i.e. corruption) would not overcome it.

The church is unquestionably referred to as the temple of God in the NT. There is no other temple of the NT. You may of course enlighten us, if this is wrong. Please do.

Well Amo, I count four temples in the New Testament:  The historic temple in Jerusalem (cf. Acts 2:46), the temple of our body (cf. 1 Corinthians 6:19), the spiritual temple of the body of Christ (cf. Ephesians 2:20-21), and the temple in heaven (cf. Revelation 7:15). Since the temple in heaven is where God dwells, it would be impossible for St. Paul to be referring to that one. It is equally impossible for St. Paul to be referring to the temple of our body or the spiritual temple of the body of Christ which is the Church, because the Church is not a place but a people. So, out of these four temples, the only one that could possibly have been referred to by St. Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the historic temple in Jerusalem which was destroyed by the Romans in AD 70. Either his prophecy was fulfilled before then, or, as quite a few believe, the temple will be rebuilt and the man of sin will be revealed at a future time.

The seventh day Sabbath was not done away with by Christ or the apostles, it was replaced over time by apostate "Christianity".

You're right Amo, it wasn't done away with by Christ. It was fulfilled by Him in His death. And we can enter into His sabbath rest by dying with Him in baptism, and being raised to newness of life to live continually in righteousness toward Him, keeping His sabbath perpetually, just as His sabbath law in Moses's writings was meant to teach. There is nothing forbidding you from entering into His rest, Amo, except your unbelief. May God free you of this burden you've placed upon yourself. I believe He will, because His mercy never fails!

This conversation is getting to long and twisted to even deal with. I no longer care what denomination you belong to, or to address the above twisted mess. You have proved nothing but your ability to confuse and twist scripture and the words of others.

[Michael2012]

Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.

It is just as that created on every other day, God spoke, and the thing was. All that He created is still here, and so is the day which He blessed and sanctified. God alone can undo, that which He has done. All that He commanded and spoke into existence remains to this day by His own design, sustenance, and intervention.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light............................................

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.................................................

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so..............................................................................

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so....................................................

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.................................................

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.............................................................

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so................................................................

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them................................................

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so....................

Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

In all of the above, God spoke the command, and it was so. This includes His blessing upon the seventh day, and His sanctification of that day. Humanity cannot change this. The day is blessed and sanctified and will be until God Himself changes that. Isaiah testifies that the sabbath will be kept in the new heaven and new earth, how say you and others that it no longer is? You presume authority which is infinitely beyond your grasp. You cannot change or do away with that which God has established.

Nobody is saying that His blessing and sanctification upon the seventh day is no more. It remains to this day that, the day after He have finished His creation, He rested. That day, will forever be that day that God rested from all His work.

Do you find a law or command that God have given mankind to do in Gen 2:1-3? Obviously, there is none. And so, Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. What it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. It tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. It also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. It tells us the reason why God blessed and sanctified that day, which I quote:

"because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made"

You see, God's rest, from all his work of creation, is what this day is about. It's not about us who are part of that which He created, nor is about creation's rest. God rested, not as one weary, but as one well-pleased with the instances of his own goodness and the manifestations of his own glory. And because of that, God blessed and sanctified that very day, has separated and distinguished it from the rest of the days, it being the day of God,s rest.

The seventh day is a blessed day, for God blessed it, and that which he blesses is blessed indeed. The seventh day is a holy day, for God has sanctified it. Now, there is but only one seventh day. It was the day after the last day of God's creative work. It is the day of God's rest.

[Michael2012]

Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.

But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.

Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.

Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.

Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?

Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>

I didn't, and I don't.

Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>

Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.

Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>

That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.   

Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.   

With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.

You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.

Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.

Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

What does the verse tells you?

Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>

What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?

[Amo]

Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.

It is just as that created on every other day, God spoke, and the thing was. All that He created is still here, and so is the day which He blessed and sanctified. God alone can undo, that which He has done. All that He commanded and spoke into existence remains to this day by His own design, sustenance, and intervention.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light............................................

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.................................................

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so..............................................................................

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so....................................................

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.................................................

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.............................................................

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so................................................................

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them................................................

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so....................

Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

In all of the above, God spoke the command, and it was so. This includes His blessing upon the seventh day, and His sanctification of that day. Humanity cannot change this. The day is blessed and sanctified and will be until God Himself changes that. Isaiah testifies that the sabbath will be kept in the new heaven and new earth, how say you and others that it no longer is? You presume authority which is infinitely beyond your grasp. You cannot change or do away with that which God has established.

Nobody is saying that His blessing and sanctification upon the seventh day is no more. It remains to this day that, the day after He have finished His creation, He rested. That day, will forever be that day that God rested from all His work.

Do you find a law or command that God have given mankind to do in Gen 2:1-3? Obviously, there is none. And so, Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. What it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. It tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. It also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. It tells us the reason why God blessed and sanctified that day, which I quote:

"because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made"

You see, God's rest, from all his work of creation, is what this day is about. It's not about us who are part of that which He created, nor is about creation's rest. God rested, not as one weary, but as one well-pleased with the instances of his own goodness and the manifestations of his own glory. And because of that, God blessed and sanctified that very day, has separated and distinguished it from the rest of the days, it being the day of God,s rest.

The seventh day is a blessed day, for God blessed it, and that which he blesses is blessed indeed. The seventh day is a holy day, for God has sanctified it. Now, there is but only one seventh day. It was the day after the last day of God's creative work. It is the day of God's rest.

You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years. Then two thousand years later decided to make it a law that His people must observe with severe penalties for not doing so. Obviously very important to Him that they should keep this command no doubt, that they might remember who they really are in relation to Him. He gave these very same people the gospel of Jesus Christ in types and symbols through the sanctuary services, and particularly the sacrifices of the same which all pointed to their salvation through and in Christ. As the verses in Hebrews you have referred to before points out, they received the gospel also, but they refused to believe. Then when Jesus did come and die for them and the rest of humanity, He ended actual observance of the sabbath on the literal seventh day for at least another two thousand years I suppose, is this not correct? Replacing it with a deeper spiritual application every day, right? Then when we get to heaven, He will once again start sabbath observance for the saved according to the letter of the law as you would say I suppose, as scripture testifies. Yet you think I am the one who makes no sense.

You claim Jesus came to fulfill the law, apparently not establish it, ignoring the details of His own words regarding that very thing. He said the commandments shall not change one jot or tittle before heaven and earth pas, you say the fourth commandment has been completely changed regarding the observance of the literal day.


Definition of jot

:  the least bit :  iota


Definition of tittle

1 :  a point or small sign used as a diacritical mark in writing or printing

2 :  a very small part

So, which of our beliefs changes one of the commandments of God? Which one has people not observing a sabbath on the seventh day, while attending a church and worship service weekly on another day? Seems quite a bit like a change to me.

You think and teach that their was no sabbath or commandments to be kept by God's people before Israel, yet the scriptures testify of this very thing concerning Abraham, the father of Israel and all the saved as Paul himself testifies.

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Just what commandments, statutes, and laws do you think Abraham the father of Israel kept? Why would you presume sabbath observance was not among them? Even if you do, why would you presume to tell others they were wrong if they think so, when no details are provided?

Apart from this again, is the fact that most who believe in Sunday sacredness do not believe as you do. They believe that Sunday sacredness has replaced the fourth commandment sabbath. Do you argue with them, and try to convince them that they should not do so? Or do you sit beside them on Sunday mornings observing their sabbath?

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

    Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.


http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/ipssabbath

In its recognition of Sunday as the Sabbath, The Salvation Army aligns itself with the custom of the Early Christian Church, which chose that day on which to commemorate and celebrate Christ's resurrection.

Principles

Within this historical Christian context, The Salvation Army holds that:

1. Sunday is 'a day of sacred assembly' (Leviticus 23:3) for corporate worship,
praise and prayer, to enrich the lives of believers and strengthen their fellowship one
with another and with God. It is also an opportunity for the gathering of families, friends and worshipping congregations.

2. Sunday is a time of resting in God apart from the anxieties and challenges of life. It is part of being human. As Scripture indicates, 'the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath' (Mark 2:27).

3. Keeping Sunday holy does not only entail the cessation of secular work for the purpose of honouring God, but also may include performing deeds of love and kindness toward fellow human beings. Jesus cautioned against legalism in the observance of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Mark 3:4; Luke 13:10-17; John 5:1-15).

4. Observing Sunday as a day of rest is an evidence of our obedience to, and reverence for, God the Creator (Exodus 20:8-11).


http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=251

So why do Christians speak of "the Lord's Day" and worship on Sunday rather than on Saturday? The answer to this important question lies in several biblical principles and practices rather than in any clear teaching or mandate of Scripture.

First, Christians need to understand that the principle of a day of rest after six days of work is rooted not in the law of Moses, but in creation. God was not tired. He needed no rest, yet he rested on the seventh day to provide a model for mankind. Jesus verified this when he taught that the Sabbath is a gracious gift of God given for the benefit of man (Mark 2:27). Since a day of rest is taught in creation and by Jesus, Christians should embrace the principle and observe a day of rest each week.

Second, even though we should observe a day of rest, we are not bound by the legal qualifications of the Sabbath as given in the law of Moses. That law was for national Israel and included precise definitions of just how much work could be allowed. The ancient Jews debated such matters as whether they could eat an egg that was laid on the Sabbath, or whether they could break a dead twig off a rose bush. Jesus ran up against this legalistic view of the Sabbath in his ministry.

Third, even though there is no clear teaching in Scripture that changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, there is unambiguous evidence that the early church met to worship on the first day of the week. Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, which was the first work day of the Jewish week, and almost immediately thereafter the Bible records the church meeting on the evening of the first day of the week (John 20:19; Acts 20:7). In his teaching on giving, Paul instructs the Corinthians to receive the offering for the poor saints in Jerusalem on the first day of the week (1 Cor 16:2). Many scholars believe that John's phrase, "the Lord's Day," in Revelation 1:10 refers to the first day of the week as well.

Finally, since, like the early church, we commemorate the resurrection of Christ by engaging in corporate worship on the first day of the week, it is right and reasonable to also use this day for the day of rest in which we cease from labor that is not a work of necessity or of mercy. Individual issues and questions about whether or not we should engage in a game of touch football or watch television, etc., are best left to the individual conscience with the admonition that we strive for maximum conformity to the will and intention of God and not the minimum.

That is why Article 8 of the Baptist Faith and Message states simply and clearly, "The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should include exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. Activities on the Lord's Day should be commensurate with the Christian's conscience under the Lordship of Jesus Christ."


https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/the-lords-day?lang=eng


I confess that as a young boy, Sunday was not my favorite day. Grandfather shut down the action. We didn't have any transportation. We couldn't drive the car. He wouldn't even let us start the motor. We couldn't ride the horses, or the steers, or the sheep. It was the Sabbath, and by commandment, the animals also needed rest. We walked to Church and everywhere else we wanted to go. I can honestly say that we observed both the spirit and the letter of Sabbath worship.

By today's standards, perhaps Grandfather's interpretation of Sabbath day activities seems extreme, but something wonderful has been lost in our lives. To this day, I have been pondering to try to understand fully what has slipped away. Part of it was knowing that I was well on the Lord's side of the line. Another part was the feeling that Satan's influence was farther away. Mostly it was the reinforcement received by the spiritual power which was generated. We had the rich feeling that the spiritual "fulness of the earth" (D&C 59:16) was ours, as promised by the Lord in section 59 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Ever since Adam's day the divine law of the Sabbath has been emphasized repeatedly over the centuries more than any other commandment. This long emphasis alone is an indication of its importance. In Genesis, we learn that God himself set the example for us in the creation of the earth:

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/681/resolution-on-the-christian-sabbath

1. That we renew our efforts to preserve the Christian sabbath and urge our people everywhere to abstain from purely secular and worldly engagements on the Lord's day.

2. That we especially deplore the wide use of the radio for advertising and for flippant jazz entertainment on the Lord's day, and we would favor legislation to prevent all Sunday advertising over the radio and all cheap vaudeville programs on Sunday.


http://www.houghtonstar.com/2013/12/07/students-and-the-recognition-of-the-sabbath/

https://cccdiscover.com/why-sunday-should-be-a-day-of-rest/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity#Origin_of_Sunday_rest

Apart from all of the above, there is the constant efforts of Sunday keepers to establish laws forcing all to honor their day. This speaks very loudly against what you teach. God's word has exalted a day to be observed, humanity has exalted a day to be observed. These two days represent two separate modes, systems, and God's to be worshiped. One demonstrates faith in God's word, the other demonstrates faith in mans traditions above the same. 

[Amo]

Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.

But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.

Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.

Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.

Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?

Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>

I didn't, and I don't.

Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>

Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.

Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>

That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.   

Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.   

With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.

You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.

Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.

Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

What does the verse tells you?

Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>

What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?

People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again. Your testimony is false. True Christianity is the true spiritual Israel of God. Those who accept Christ are graft into the vine, not made of a separate vine. Christ is king of the Jews. The Jews who rejected Jesus Christ are not the Israel of God. The Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ are now the spiritual children of Abraham, the Israel of God. If you maintain the wall which Christ has broken down, you are none of His. If Jesus is your Lord, then follow Him.

[DMA]

This conversation is getting to long and twisted to even deal with.

And yet you told me before,

It takes what it takes. One of us is a liar preaching and teaching dangerous deception. It should be worth the time and effort to expose such. If we care to little to invest the time and effort necessary to combat the same, then perhaps we don't care enough.

I no longer care what denomination you belong to

Well, that's good. Especially considering that it had zero relevance to our discussion.

You have proved nothing but your ability to confuse and twist scripture and the words of others.

This is not for you to say Amo. On the contrary, those that read our conversation will be the judge of what, if anything, was proven or twisted.

[Amo]

This conversation is getting to long and twisted to even deal with.

And yet you told me before,

It takes what it takes. One of us is a liar preaching and teaching dangerous deception. It should be worth the time and effort to expose such. If we care to little to invest the time and effort necessary to combat the same, then perhaps we don't care enough.

I no longer care what denomination you belong to

Well, that's good. Especially considering that it had zero relevance to our discussion.

You have proved nothing but your ability to confuse and twist scripture and the words of others.

This is not for you to say Amo. On the contrary, those that read our conversation will be the judge of what, if anything, was proven or twisted.

Yes and God will judge all according to the words which our Lord and Savior spoke.

Jn 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

All the unending twist and turns of debate to justify our positions, when all we need to do is compare all that we profess to the words of Jesus Himself. If what we believe contradicts His testimony, then what we believe contradicts God. This is what all will be judged by.

[DMA]

Yes and God will judge all according to the words which our Lord and Savior spoke.

Jn 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

All the unending twist and turns of debate to justify our positions, when all we need to do is compare all that we profess to the words of Jesus Himself. If what we believe contradicts His testimony, then what we believe contradicts God. This is what all will be judged by.

These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

The natural man that St. Paul speaks of is the one who has set his mind upon earthly things rather than on spiritual things. He believes that true worship of God consists of things like where we worship and when we worship, much like the woman at the well did (cf. John 4:20). The spiritual man, on the other hand, knows that the true worship of the Father is free of these hindrances. The spiritual man worships God at all times and in all places in his body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit, living a righteous life. The spiritual man worships with his brother, not forsaking the assembling together with one another (cf. Hebrews 10:24-25), while the natural man is consumed with distaste for his brother, judging him as unworthy to assemble with. The spiritual man judges no one but himself, and in so doing is vindicated by the Judge of all, while the natural man judges his brother, and in so doing passes judgment on himself. The natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit, believing them to be foolishness and dangerous to the worship of God, while the spiritual man rejoices in the liberty by which God has made him free (cf. Galatians 5:1). Those that worship the Lord in the glory of His third day resurrection are spiritual and free and the children of promise, while those that worship Him according to the law given at Mt. Sinai long before His incarnation and resurrection are earthly and natural and the children of bondage (cf. Galatians 4:21-31). It is the free children of promise who will inherit the kingdom while the children of bondage will be cast out.

[Amo]

Yes and God will judge all according to the words which our Lord and Savior spoke.

Jn 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

All the unending twist and turns of debate to justify our positions, when all we need to do is compare all that we profess to the words of Jesus Himself. If what we believe contradicts His testimony, then what we believe contradicts God. This is what all will be judged by.

These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

The natural man that St. Paul speaks of is the one who has set his mind upon earthly things rather than on spiritual things. He believes that true worship of God consists of things like where we worship and when we worship, much like the woman at the well did (cf. John 4:20). The spiritual man, on the other hand, knows that the true worship of the Father is free of these hindrances. The spiritual man worships God at all times and in all places in his body, which is the temple of the Holy Spirit, living a righteous life. The spiritual man worships with his brother, not forsaking the assembling together with one another (cf. Hebrews 10:24-25), while the natural man is consumed with distaste for his brother, judging him as unworthy to assemble with. The spiritual man judges no one but himself, and in so doing is vindicated by the Judge of all, while the natural man judges his brother, and in so doing passes judgment on himself. The natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit, believing them to be foolishness and dangerous to the worship of God, while the spiritual man rejoices in the liberty by which God has made him free (cf. Galatians 5:1). Those that worship the Lord in the glory of His third day resurrection are spiritual and free and the children of promise, while those that worship Him according to the law given at Mt. Sinai long before His incarnation and resurrection are earthly and natural and the children of bondage (cf. Galatians 4:21-31). It is the free children of promise who will inherit the kingdom while the children of bondage will be cast out.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to [h]become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was [when he was] called.(AMP)

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rv 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rv 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rv 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The scriptures don't seem to agree with your assessment of Paul's words. Perhaps you should make sure your not one of the following Peter warned about.

2 Pt 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[DMA]

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Indeed, the law is spiritual. And only one who is spiritually minded can really understand it. St. Paul, when he was a Pharisee was observing the law according to the letter of what was written, kind of like you are in regards to the sabbath. For him, just like you, the commandment in the letter said rest on the seventh-day of the week by doing no work on it. This is the letter, because this is what is written on stone. However, the spiritually minded man does not live by the letter of the commandment but by the spirit of it (cf. Romans 7:6). He understands that God wants him to keep sabbath all the time, and not just once a week from earthly, worldly work. The spiritual man knows that what God really wants is for man to cease from his evil works. This was the message of the prophet Isaiah (cf. Isaiah 1:16-17). But since you haven't been illumined by the Holy Spirit yet you only see the letter of what is written, just like St. Paul when he was only a Pharisee judging his brothers. You still have the veil over your heart thinking you understand things as they are when you really don't (cf. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16).

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The operative phrase is "till all be fulfilled". I've already dealt with this passage in our previous conversation showing that indeed the Lord Jesus fulfilled all things. You should go back and read what I said, because I get the sneaky feeling you don't always read what others write to you.

1 Cor 7:17 Only, let each one live the life which the Lord has assigned him, and to which God has called him [for each person is unique and is accountable for his choices and conduct, let him walk in this way]. This is the rule I make in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his calling [from God already] circumcised? He is not to [h]become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called while uncircumcised? He is not to be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was [when he was] called.(AMP)

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rv 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rv 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rv 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

And what makes you think, Amo, that these passages are speaking about the Ten Commandments of Moses and not the commandments that the Lord Jesus Christ gave to His holy Apostles Himself? For it is written:

The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,

Tell me Amo, what were these "commandments" the Lord Jesus gave to His holy Apostles through the Holy Spirit? They couldn't have been the commandments found in the writings of Moses (i.e. Genesis-Deuteronomy) since those had already been around for a while. No, these were new commandments for a new covenant for a new Church. Jesus Christ is the Christian's new "Moses" (cf. Deuteronomy 18:15) who gave a new law in the Gospel to His holy Apostles through the Holy Spirit, and which the Church has lived by since the beginning.

The scriptures don't seem to agree with your assessment of Paul's words. Perhaps you should make sure your not one of the following Peter warned about.

2 Pt 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Well, since I don't wish to speak anything contrary to what the Church teaches regarding the faith (you know, that Church that was founded and established by Christ Himself through His holy Apostles on the day of Pentecost 2,000+ years ago which the gates of Hades would never prevail against), perhaps I'm not the one who should be concerned here.

[Michael2012]

Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command.

It is just as that created on every other day, God spoke, and the thing was. All that He created is still here, and so is the day which He blessed and sanctified. God alone can undo, that which He has done. All that He commanded and spoke into existence remains to this day by His own design, sustenance, and intervention.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light............................................

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.................................................

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so..............................................................................

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so....................................................

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.................................................

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.............................................................

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so................................................................

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them................................................

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so....................

Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

In all of the above, God spoke the command, and it was so. This includes His blessing upon the seventh day, and His sanctification of that day. Humanity cannot change this. The day is blessed and sanctified and will be until God Himself changes that. Isaiah testifies that the sabbath will be kept in the new heaven and new earth, how say you and others that it no longer is? You presume authority which is infinitely beyond your grasp. You cannot change or do away with that which God has established.

Nobody is saying that His blessing and sanctification upon the seventh day is no more. It remains to this day that, the day after He have finished His creation, He rested. That day, will forever be that day that God rested from all His work.

Do you find a law or command that God have given mankind to do in Gen 2:1-3? Obviously, there is none. And so, Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. What it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. It tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. It also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. It tells us the reason why God blessed and sanctified that day, which I quote:

"because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made"

You see, God's rest, from all his work of creation, is what this day is about. It's not about us who are part of that which He created, nor is about creation's rest. God rested, not as one weary, but as one well-pleased with the instances of his own goodness and the manifestations of his own glory. And because of that, God blessed and sanctified that very day, has separated and distinguished it from the rest of the days, it being the day of God,s rest.

The seventh day is a blessed day, for God blessed it, and that which he blesses is blessed indeed. The seventh day is a holy day, for God has sanctified it. Now, there is but only one seventh day. It was the day after the last day of God's creative work. It is the day of God's rest.

You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years. Then two thousand years later decided to make it a law that His people must observe with severe penalties for not doing so. Obviously very important to Him that they should keep this command no doubt, that they might remember who they really are in relation to Him. He gave these very same people the gospel of Jesus Christ in types and symbols through the sanctuary services, and particularly the sacrifices of the same which all pointed to their salvation through and in Christ. As the verses in Hebrews you have referred to before points out, they received the gospel also, but they refused to believe. Then when Jesus did come and die for them and the rest of humanity, He ended actual observance of the sabbath on the literal seventh day for at least another two thousand years I suppose, is this not correct? Replacing it with a deeper spiritual application every day, right? Then when we get to heaven, He will once again start sabbath observance for the saved according to the letter of the law as you would say I suppose, as scripture testifies. Yet you think I am the one who makes no sense.

You claim Jesus came to fulfill the law, apparently not establish it, ignoring the details of His own words regarding that very thing. He said the commandments shall not change one jot or tittle before heaven and earth pas, you say the fourth commandment has been completely changed regarding the observance of the literal day.


Definition of jot

:  the least bit :  iota


Definition of tittle

1 :  a point or small sign used as a diacritical mark in writing or printing

2 :  a very small part

So, which of our beliefs changes one of the commandments of God? Which one has people not observing a sabbath on the seventh day, while attending a church and worship service weekly on another day? Seems quite a bit like a change to me.

You think and teach that their was no sabbath or commandments to be kept by God's people before Israel, yet the scriptures testify of this very thing concerning Abraham, the father of Israel and all the saved as Paul himself testifies.

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Just what commandments, statutes, and laws do you think Abraham the father of Israel kept? Why would you presume sabbath observance was not among them? Even if you do, why would you presume to tell others they were wrong if they think so, when no details are provided?

Apart from this again, is the fact that most who believe in Sunday sacredness do not believe as you do. They believe that Sunday sacredness has replaced the fourth commandment sabbath. Do you argue with them, and try to convince them that they should not do so? Or do you sit beside them on Sunday mornings observing their sabbath?

You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>

What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.

Amo: <<Just what commandments, statutes, and laws do you think Abraham the father of Israel kept? Why would you presume sabbath observance was not among them?>>

Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.

In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.

Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?

Gen. 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.

It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.

Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses. 

What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.

So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness  in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.

Amo: <<Apart from this again, is the fact that most who believe in Sunday sacredness do not believe as you do. They believe that Sunday sacredness has replaced the fourth commandment sabbath. Do you argue with them, and try to convince them that they should not do so? Or do you sit beside them on Sunday mornings observing their sabbath?>>

Yes, I don't believe as they do. I would argue with them if and when they so welcome an argument with me, in the hope that I may somehow lead them to go to scriptures and seek the truth about such matter.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

    Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.


http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/ipssabbath

In its recognition of Sunday as the Sabbath, The Salvation Army aligns itself with the custom of the Early Christian Church, which chose that day on which to commemorate and celebrate Christ's resurrection.

Principles

Within this historical Christian context, The Salvation Army holds that:

1. Sunday is 'a day of sacred assembly' (Leviticus 23:3) for corporate worship,
praise and prayer, to enrich the lives of believers and strengthen their fellowship one
with another and with God. It is also an opportunity for the gathering of families, friends and worshipping congregations.

2. Sunday is a time of resting in God apart from the anxieties and challenges of life. It is part of being human. As Scripture indicates, 'the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath' (Mark 2:27).

3. Keeping Sunday holy does not only entail the cessation of secular work for the purpose of honouring God, but also may include performing deeds of love and kindness toward fellow human beings. Jesus cautioned against legalism in the observance of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-28; Mark 3:4; Luke 13:10-17; John 5:1-15).

4. Observing Sunday as a day of rest is an evidence of our obedience to, and reverence for, God the Creator (Exodus 20:8-11).


http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=251

So why do Christians speak of "the Lord's Day" and worship on Sunday rather than on Saturday? The answer to this important question lies in several biblical principles and practices rather than in any clear teaching or mandate of Scripture.

First, Christians need to understand that the principle of a day of rest after six days of work is rooted not in the law of Moses, but in creation. God was not tired. He needed no rest, yet he rested on the seventh day to provide a model for mankind. Jesus verified this when he taught that the Sabbath is a gracious gift of God given for the benefit of man (Mark 2:27). Since a day of rest is taught in creation and by Jesus, Christians should embrace the principle and observe a day of rest each week.

Second, even though we should observe a day of rest, we are not bound by the legal qualifications of the Sabbath as given in the law of Moses. That law was for national Israel and included precise definitions of just how much work could be allowed. The ancient Jews debated such matters as whether they could eat an egg that was laid on the Sabbath, or whether they could break a dead twig off a rose bush. Jesus ran up against this legalistic view of the Sabbath in his ministry.

Third, even though there is no clear teaching in Scripture that changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, there is unambiguous evidence that the early church met to worship on the first day of the week. Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday, which was the first work day of the Jewish week, and almost immediately thereafter the Bible records the church meeting on the evening of the first day of the week (John 20:19; Acts 20:7). In his teaching on giving, Paul instructs the Corinthians to receive the offering for the poor saints in Jerusalem on the first day of the week (1 Cor 16:2). Many scholars believe that John's phrase, "the Lord's Day," in Revelation 1:10 refers to the first day of the week as well.

Finally, since, like the early church, we commemorate the resurrection of Christ by engaging in corporate worship on the first day of the week, it is right and reasonable to also use this day for the day of rest in which we cease from labor that is not a work of necessity or of mercy. Individual issues and questions about whether or not we should engage in a game of touch football or watch television, etc., are best left to the individual conscience with the admonition that we strive for maximum conformity to the will and intention of God and not the minimum.

That is why Article 8 of the Baptist Faith and Message states simply and clearly, "The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should include exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. Activities on the Lord's Day should be commensurate with the Christian's conscience under the Lordship of Jesus Christ."


https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1991/10/the-lords-day?lang=eng


I confess that as a young boy, Sunday was not my favorite day. Grandfather shut down the action. We didn't have any transportation. We couldn't drive the car. He wouldn't even let us start the motor. We couldn't ride the horses, or the steers, or the sheep. It was the Sabbath, and by commandment, the animals also needed rest. We walked to Church and everywhere else we wanted to go. I can honestly say that we observed both the spirit and the letter of Sabbath worship.

By today's standards, perhaps Grandfather's interpretation of Sabbath day activities seems extreme, but something wonderful has been lost in our lives. To this day, I have been pondering to try to understand fully what has slipped away. Part of it was knowing that I was well on the Lord's side of the line. Another part was the feeling that Satan's influence was farther away. Mostly it was the reinforcement received by the spiritual power which was generated. We had the rich feeling that the spiritual "fulness of the earth" (D&C 59:16) was ours, as promised by the Lord in section 59 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Ever since Adam's day the divine law of the Sabbath has been emphasized repeatedly over the centuries more than any other commandment. This long emphasis alone is an indication of its importance. In Genesis, we learn that God himself set the example for us in the creation of the earth:

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/681/resolution-on-the-christian-sabbath

1. That we renew our efforts to preserve the Christian sabbath and urge our people everywhere to abstain from purely secular and worldly engagements on the Lord's day.

2. That we especially deplore the wide use of the radio for advertising and for flippant jazz entertainment on the Lord's day, and we would favor legislation to prevent all Sunday advertising over the radio and all cheap vaudeville programs on Sunday.


http://www.houghtonstar.com/2013/12/07/students-and-the-recognition-of-the-sabbath/

https://cccdiscover.com/why-sunday-should-be-a-day-of-rest/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity#Origin_of_Sunday_rest

Apart from all of the above, there is the constant efforts of Sunday keepers to establish laws forcing all to honor their day. This speaks very loudly against what you teach. God's word has exalted a day to be observed, humanity has exalted a day to be observed. These two days represent two separate modes, systems, and God's to be worshiped. One demonstrates faith in God's word, the other demonstrates faith in mans traditions above the same.

In all of these, this is what I can say:

Rom. 14:4-6
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Rom.14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Rom.14:18-19
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Whatsoever deed done that is not of faith in God is sin.

Whatsoever deed done that is of faith in God is righteousness, acceptable, and pleasing to God.

[DMA]

Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.

In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.

Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?

Gen. 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.

It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.

Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses. 

What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.

So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness  in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.

Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! 

[Texas Conservative]

Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.

In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.

Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?

Gen. 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.

It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.

Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses. 

What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.

So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness  in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.

Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! 

I can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!

[DMA]

I can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!

Shhhh...you'll reveal our secret plan

Just act natural 

[Michael2012]

Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.

But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.

Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.

Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.

Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?

Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>

I didn't, and I don't.

Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>

Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.

Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>

That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.   

Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.   

With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.

You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.

Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.

Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

What does the verse tells you?

Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>

What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?

People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again. Your testimony is false. True Christianity is the true spiritual Israel of God. Those who accept Christ are graft into the vine, not made of a separate vine. Christ is king of the Jews. The Jews who rejected Jesus Christ are not the Israel of God. The Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ are now the spiritual children of Abraham, the Israel of God. If you maintain the wall which Christ has broken down, you are none of His. If Jesus is your Lord, then follow Him.

Amo, you seemed to have missed this one.

Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

What does the verse tells you?


And this one: What was established in Genesis 2:1-3? Was the commandment concerning the Sabbath or God's rest?

Amo: <<People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again.>>

Go to scriptures and listen to what it says, and see whether what these people say is in keeping with scriptures or not. Now, if you think that they are wrong and you are right, and want all of them to believe as you do, then ask God what you ought to do to bring this about.

Now, we don't get to do this by force or by any unkind manner, rather, we do it in love and brotherly affection. Afterall, I see this matter, as not a matter of salvation, that if for example, one does not do and believe as you do, concerning the 4th commandment, that he will not be saved. Unless, you take this as being a matter of salvation, I don't see why we can't have a kind and simple exchange of views, and in that way, offer one another, the opportunity to examine each others views in scriptures.       And we leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

[Amo]

You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

I don't have to refute anything you say. God established the seventh day sabbath at creation. I don't care if you think it was a law or not. It was established at creation, and has existed ever since. Nothing you say or do can change that. You are dust just like me, here today, gone tomorrow. The word of God is forever. When He speaks it is, and none can change it save Himself. Nothing you or all humanity with you can say or do, will end the seventh day Sabbath established by God at creation.

Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>

What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.

Which verses say nothing about no one hearing what God said, or ever observing a Sabbath. These are your thoughts, not scripture. Just as my assumption that His words were heard and no doubt heeded. Though scripture does not say either way. Nevertheless, we have scriptural testimony that Abraham kept God's laws and commandments before scripture ever mentions them. At the very least then, He must have told Abraham about them. Or do you think he just guessed what they were?

[Amo]

Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.

In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.

Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?

Gen. 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.

Yes, no law before the fall, or need of it.

It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.

No, no mention of the Sabbath. No mention of a whole lot of details pertaining to 2 thousand years. All concerning a world which is no more. Nevertheless, somehow Abel knew which kind of offering to bring to God which would be acceptable. What do you know, it was a lamb. Used to typify our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's sacrifice for our sins all through scripture, including the law of the old covenant. We know that Abraham also made these sacrifices, and his children. Do you presume that Cain and Abel just guessed what offering God wanted? He chose Abel's guess over Cain's and that is how it all started? Then God liked it so much, that He then decided to let His Son die for us, and be called the Lamb of God? Is that it? Scripture testifies otherwise.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No, but God did not leave humanity in ignorance. Abel's sacrifice was acceptable because it was by faith in God's word, just as Abraham's was also. Knowing about the sacrifices was part of the laws, statutes, and commandments of God which scripture testifies Abraham kept. You may presume God left humanity to guess at these things and then adapted their guesses, I know my Better than that.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.

Nice try. Circumcision does not amount to statutes, commandments, and laws. All plural in case you hadn't noticed. I understand your need that there were no statutes, commandments, or laws given to Abraham by God, nevertheless need does not make anything so. This is important to your point I know, so no doubt you will continue to equate statutes, commandments, and laws to all that you can other than actual statutes, commandments, and laws. Or however you might twist things to your own understanding. I guess we'll have to wait and see. 

What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.

How very strange, such pointed accusations against people Paul stated knew better, yet you maintain were apparently totally ignorant of God's will for them. How does that work? Why would they glorify God as God if they knew nothing about Him or what He wanted for or from them? Why wouldn't they worship idols if they had no idea God didn't want them to worship idols? What truths did they turn into lies, if they didn't know any truth from God in the first place? How were they unrighteous, if they were never told by God what was righteous? Why wouldn't they fornicate, if God never told them not to fornicate? Why wouldn't they covet, if God had never told them not to covet, and so on and so on? According to your own  belief, even God's people didn't have any direction, statutes, laws, or commandments pertaining to the same. They certainly could not have witnessed to the heathen about such things when they themselves didn't know about them. At the very least, they all must be far less guilty than we all are. We have the scriptures and know what God wants, right? Of course we don't agree upon what he wants, do we?

So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Yes there is more than a hint, we are told that Abraham knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. You just choose to believe that referred apparently to circumcision and a few other vague things. That is your choice not mine. It suits your purposes, not mine. I do not believe God left humanity, especially His own in ignorance, you do.

The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness  in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.

No, the seventh day Sabbath was established at creation, you cannot change this. You just choose to believe that it had and God intended no relevance for it until the nation of Israel. This is what you choose. Certainly not anything taught in scripture, nor rightly deduced as I see it, from what little mention their is of all that God related to humanity in the thousands of years leading up to the establishment of the nation of Israel. In any case, as soon as God had a nation which had attracted major attention in this world through His miraculous deliverance of them, He commanded them to keep the Sabbath He established at creation. In a commandment that revealed exactly who God is, and His right to authority over us. Which commandment you no longer choose to keep.

[Amo]

Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.

In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.

Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?

Gen. 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.

It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.

Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses. 

What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.

So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness  in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.

Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! 

What a surprise, you agree with Michael, I would have never guessed it. I think comparing the above to Stephen's testimony was going quite a bit to far though. But hey, I guess we all choose our own hero's.

[Amo]

Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.

In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.

Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?

Gen. 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.

It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.

Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses. 

What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.

So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness  in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.

Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! 

I can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!

Typical comment from the Texas Conservative peanut gallery.

[Amo]

I can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!

Shhhh...you'll reveal our secret plan

Just act natural 

Yea, some big secret. Been non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years, and a bunch of people pushing for them today.

[Amo]

Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.

But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.

Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.

Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.

Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?

Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>

I didn't, and I don't.

Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>

Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.

Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>

That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.   

Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.   

With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.

You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.

Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.

Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

What does the verse tells you?

Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>

What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?

People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again. Your testimony is false. True Christianity is the true spiritual Israel of God. Those who accept Christ are graft into the vine, not made of a separate vine. Christ is king of the Jews. The Jews who rejected Jesus Christ are not the Israel of God. The Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ are now the spiritual children of Abraham, the Israel of God. If you maintain the wall which Christ has broken down, you are none of His. If Jesus is your Lord, then follow Him.

Amo, you seemed to have missed this one.

Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

What does the verse tells you?


And this one: What was established in Genesis 2:1-3? Was the commandment concerning the Sabbath or God's rest?

Amo: <<People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again.>>

Go to scriptures and listen to what it says, and see whether what these people say is in keeping with scriptures or not. Now, if you think that they are wrong and you are right, and want all of them to believe as you do, then ask God what you ought to do to bring this about.

Now, we don't get to do this by force or by any unkind manner, rather, we do it in love and brotherly affection. Afterall, I see this matter, as not a matter of salvation, that if for example, one does not do and believe as you do, concerning the 4th commandment, that he will not be saved. Unless, you take this as being a matter of salvation, I don't see why we can't have a kind and simple exchange of views, and in that way, offer one another, the opportunity to examine each others views in scriptures.       And we leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

Human laws that force people to observe Sunday sacredness have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit if God. Countless deceived people who also believe the seventh day Sabbath is no more, also believe in forcing their chosen day upon everyone by law. There is serious deception going on here. I would think you would rather address them, than those who maintain the seventh day Sabbath should still be kept by faith in God's word alone. You can close your eyes to the true history and nature connected to Sunday sacredness if you wish, but I cannot. It is purely anti-christ to declare what man has made of God, and then seek to force it upon everyone.

[Amo]

In all of these, this is what I can say:

Rom. 14:4-6
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Rom.14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Rom.14:18-19
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Whatsoever deed done that is not of faith in God is sin.

Whatsoever deed done that is of faith in God is righteousness, acceptable, and pleasing to God.

Yes, I know, you apply it all to the fourth commandment of God. though none of it is addressing the ten commandments at all. Been through this about a million times already.

[Michael2012]

You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

I don't have to refute anything you say. God established the seventh day sabbath at creation. I don't care if you think it was a law or not. It was established at creation, and has existed ever since. Nothing you say or do can change that. You are dust just like me, here today, gone tomorrow. The word of God is forever. When He speaks it is, and none can change it save Himself. Nothing you or all humanity with you can say or do, will end the seventh day Sabbath established by God at creation.

If you don't or can't, then my position remains and stands to refute your position on Gen. 2:1-3. And clearly now, what God established is not a law, but the 7th day Sabbath. And nobody here says that this 7th day Sabbath has ended, whatever, it is that you mean by that. The 7th day Sabbath was established by God on the day that he ended his work, for He rested on that day. And this 7th day is forever that day that God rested from all His work. Nothing can ever change that. As an additional comment, nothing can change the day that Christ died on the cross, and the day that He resurrected from the dead. All are holy and are most worthy to be kept in remembrance, even every day in the life of the child of God. It's not the day, but the holy remembrance of it, to the glory of God.

Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>

What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.

Which verses say nothing about no one hearing what God said, or ever observing a Sabbath. These are your thoughts, not scripture. Just as my assumption that His words were heard and no doubt heeded. Though scripture does not say either way. Nevertheless, we have scriptural testimony that Abraham kept God's laws and commandments before scripture ever mentions them. At the very least then, He must have told Abraham about them. Or do you think he just guessed what they were?

What I have shown you is written in scriptures. No assumptions there Amo. We don't need to assume. What we need to do is accept and believe what is revealed in scriptures. So, go ahead and see what is revealed from Adam to up to before Moses. See for yourself if there was anything ever written about the 7th day Sabbath, during those generations. 

[Michael2012]

In all of these, this is what I can say:

Rom. 14:4-6
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Rom.14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

Rom.14:18-19
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Whatsoever deed done that is not of faith in God is sin.

Whatsoever deed done that is of faith in God is righteousness, acceptable, and pleasing to God.

Yes, I know, you apply it all to the fourth commandment of God. though none of it is addressing the ten commandments at all. Been through this about a million times already.

I don't. Read and understand the cited passages and see the spirit in there and where they apply. 

[Michael2012]

Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.

In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.

Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?

Gen. 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.

Yes, no law before the fall, or need of it.

It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.

No, no mention of the Sabbath. No mention of a whole lot of details pertaining to 2 thousand years. All concerning a world which is no more. Nevertheless, somehow Abel knew which kind of offering to bring to God which would be acceptable. What do you know, it was a lamb. Used to typify our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ's sacrifice for our sins all through scripture, including the law of the old covenant. We know that Abraham also made these sacrifices, and his children. Do you presume that Cain and Abel just guessed what offering God wanted? He chose Abel's guess over Cain's and that is how it all started? Then God liked it so much, that He then decided to let His Son die for us, and be called the Lamb of God? Is that it? Scripture testifies otherwise.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No, but God did not leave humanity in ignorance. Abel's sacrifice was acceptable because it was by faith in God's word, just as Abraham's was also. Knowing about the sacrifices was part of the laws, statutes, and commandments of God which scripture testifies Abraham kept. You may presume God left humanity to guess at these things and then adapted their guesses, I know my Better than that.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

No, nobody in those generations guessed Amo. The point being is that, of all that was written and revealed in scriptures, for the child of God to know, in those times and generation, there was nothing about the 7th day Sabbath.

As to what is written, such as the offering of a sacrifice to God, that certainly was not coming from a law written in stones, but is coming from a law written within the man by God. And what law is written there, we come to know, through what is revealed in scriptures. So you can go to Genesis to know that. And even, you can go to Rom.1 to know of that as well. But, of course the SDA would be disappointed to learn that there is not mention of the 7th day sabbath, be it observed or not. 

Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses.

Nice try. Circumcision does not amount to statutes, commandments, and laws. All plural in case you hadn't noticed. I understand your need that there were no statutes, commandments, or laws given to Abraham by God, nevertheless need does not make anything so. This is important to your point I know, so no doubt you will continue to equate statutes, commandments, and laws to all that you can other than actual statutes, commandments, and laws. Or however you might twist things to your own understanding. I guess we'll have to wait and see. 

What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.

How very strange, such pointed accusations against people Paul stated knew better, yet you maintain were apparently totally ignorant of God's will for them. How does that work? Why would they glorify God as God if they knew nothing about Him or what He wanted for or from them? Why wouldn't they worship idols if they had no idea God didn't want them to worship idols? What truths did they turn into lies, if they didn't know any truth from God in the first place? How were they unrighteous, if they were never told by God what was righteous? Why wouldn't they fornicate, if God never told them not to fornicate? Why wouldn't they covet, if God had never told them not to covet, and so on and so on? According to your own  belief, even God's people didn't have any direction, statutes, laws, or commandments pertaining to the same. They certainly could not have witnessed to the heathen about such things when they themselves didn't know about them. At the very least, they all must be far less guilty than we all are. We have the scriptures and know what God wants, right? Of course we don't agree upon what he wants, do we?

Where did I say that people were totally ignorant of God's will for them? It amazes me. And to the contrary, did I not say that Paul said that they knew God and know the judgment of God? So, the rest of what you say here are out of line and out of place.

So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Yes there is more than a hint, we are told that Abraham knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. You just choose to believe that referred apparently to circumcision and a few other vague things. That is your choice not mine. It suits your purposes, not mine. I do not believe God left humanity, especially His own in ignorance, you do.

That's right, Abraham may well knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. But as to what these are, if there is any hint, the 7th day Sabbath apparently is not among them. Read and see the hints in Genesis 12-17 and Romans 1.

The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness  in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.

No, the seventh day Sabbath was established at creation, you cannot change this. You just choose to believe that it had and God intended no relevance for it until the nation of Israel. This is what you choose. Certainly not anything taught in scripture, nor rightly deduced as I see it, from what little mention their is of all that God related to humanity in the thousands of years leading up to the establishment of the nation of Israel. In any case, as soon as God had a nation which had attracted major attention in this world through His miraculous deliverance of them, He commanded them to keep the Sabbath He established at creation. In a commandment that revealed exactly who God is, and His right to authority over us. Which commandment you no longer choose to keep.

You just keep on saying and point to Gen.2:1-3, which is not even a commandment or law that one must do. No matter how you force it, it's just not a law, but the day that God rested from His work.

And apparently you are not reading in scriptures why the law was given to Israel through Moses.

[Michael2012]

Those of Exodus to Ezekiel, to whom is God speaking? Is it not to the Israelites? After giving commandments and laws, and the Israelites responding saying "All the words which the Lord hath said will we do", God had made a covenant, between Him and them.

But then, Israel have broken the covenant. And the prophet Jeremiah spoke these things "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,says the Lord". Regarding then the covenant, in that he said, "a new covenant", this will make the first old and obsolete.

Has that day come? And if so, then the old is gone and the new is come. And this is the new covenant: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

And this new covenant, Jesus Christ is the Mediator. Jesus Christ is not the mediator of the old, but of the new. The Christian therefore is in covenant with God, but not according to the covenant that God made with Israel in the day when God took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, through Moses, but according to the new covenant that God made through Jesus Christ.

Now, concerning those from Matthew to Luke, what time do these fall? They are at the time that the new covenant is not yet. That means, the covenant between God and Israel, has not yet been made old. So, the law of the Sabbath be observed and kept, as with the rest of all the other laws and commandments included in the covenant.

Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance? Baloney! Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath? You have simply chosen another day. Correct if I am wrong. Shall I produce the statements from Sunday keepers to the effect that they are keeping what they consider to be the new sabbath-day?

Amo: <<Why do you presume that the new covenant, where God's law is written upon the hearts of His followers, equals no Sabbath observance?>>

I didn't, and I don't.

Amo: <<Do you not attend church on Sunday and treat it as a sabbath?>>

Treat it as a sabbath? What do you mean by that? Please expound.

Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Which statement you and other Sunday keepers do always completely ignore. Besides this the NT admonishes us to keep the commandments of God all the way through to the end. You are simply caught up in the justification of your own views which contradict scripture, which results in devising faulty doctrines which make the scriptures contradict themselves. Such things can lead no where else. The scriptures are truth. The moment one departs from the truth and attempts to use scripture to back them up, they bear testimony that the scriptures contradict themselves. It can be no other way. Apart from this, Isaiah spoke of the sabbath as a blessing to both Jew and Gentile even during the old covenant, and in reference to the new covenant you speak of in which others besides the Jews would be gathered together unto God. Observe-

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Amo: <<Jesus kept the Sabbath, taught it's proper observance, and never said anything about it changing or being done way with. To the contrary, He conclusively stated that He did not come to change the law but to fulfill it. Also clearly stating that anyone who broke any of the commandments and taught others to do so, would be called least in the kingdom of heaven.>>

That's right, Jesus kept the Sabbath, firstly in that he is born a Jew and is under the Law. Though, not in the manner and way that those under the Law keeps it. He kept it in spirit and in truth. He properly kept it, for He knows not only what the Sabbath is and is for, even so, He is the Lord of the Sabbath.   

Nobody is saying that Jesus said that it is changed or that it is no more to be kept.   

With regards Hebrews 4:1-11, it speak nothing about some law nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Rather, it speaks something about those generation in the wilderness, of not entering God's rest. It is about entering God's rest.

You are correct, it is about entering His rest. Which is exactly what the seventh day sabbath is a sign of. Which is exactly why it is brought up in the verses you are speaking of. Which is exactly why those who keep it, do so by faith in the God of creation and redemption. It is a weekly reminder of our proper relation to our Creator and Redeemer. It has not been done away with. It was established at creation for humanity before the fall, reiterated by God again for fallen humanity who wanted and accepted God's salvation during the old covenant, kept by way of example by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as He established salvation and the new covenant, and will be kept in the new heaven and new earth by the saved after our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returns. This is the testimony of scripture which you deny in your rejection of the fourth commandment of God.

Yes, Hebrews 4:1-11 is about entering God's rest, and not about some law, nor about the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath. I wonder why the SDA cited it in speaking about the 4th commandment in the SDA article I cited.

Meditate on this: Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

What does the verse tells you?

Amo: <<It was established at creation for humanity before the fall>>

What was established? The seventh day, or the 4th commandment?

People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again. Your testimony is false. True Christianity is the true spiritual Israel of God. Those who accept Christ are graft into the vine, not made of a separate vine. Christ is king of the Jews. The Jews who rejected Jesus Christ are not the Israel of God. The Jews and Gentiles who accepted Christ are now the spiritual children of Abraham, the Israel of God. If you maintain the wall which Christ has broken down, you are none of His. If Jesus is your Lord, then follow Him.

Amo, you seemed to have missed this one.

Heb.4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

What does the verse tells you?


And this one: What was established in Genesis 2:1-3? Was the commandment concerning the Sabbath or God's rest?

Why have you been avoiding these two questions, especially that in Heb.4:10? Can you please kindly address them?

Amo: <<People are saying that it no longer needs to be kept or observed. Most Christians are observing another day. A great many of them have forced this day upon all through civil legislation, and intend to do so again.>>

Go to scriptures and listen to what it says, and see whether what these people say is in keeping with scriptures or not. Now, if you think that they are wrong and you are right, and want all of them to believe as you do, then ask God what you ought to do to bring this about.

Now, we don't get to do this by force or by any unkind manner, rather, we do it in love and brotherly affection. Afterall, I see this matter, as not a matter of salvation, that if for example, one does not do and believe as you do, concerning the 4th commandment, that he will not be saved. Unless, you take this as being a matter of salvation, I don't see why we can't have a kind and simple exchange of views, and in that way, offer one another, the opportunity to examine each others views in scriptures.       And we leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

Human laws that force people to observe Sunday sacredness have nothing to do with the Holy Spirit if God. Countless deceived people who also believe the seventh day Sabbath is no more, also believe in forcing their chosen day upon everyone by law. There is serious deception going on here. I would think you would rather address them, than those who maintain the seventh day Sabbath should still be kept by faith in God's word alone. You can close your eyes to the true history and nature connected to Sunday sacredness if you wish, but I cannot. It is purely anti-christ to declare what man has made of God, and then seek to force it upon everyone.

I respect your opinion and feelings here Amo.