Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians.

[Amo]

You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

I don't have to refute anything you say. God established the seventh day sabbath at creation. I don't care if you think it was a law or not. It was established at creation, and has existed ever since. Nothing you say or do can change that. You are dust just like me, here today, gone tomorrow. The word of God is forever. When He speaks it is, and none can change it save Himself. Nothing you or all humanity with you can say or do, will end the seventh day Sabbath established by God at creation.

If you don't or can't, then my position remains and stands to refute your position on Gen. 2:1-3. And clearly now, what God established is not a law, but the 7th day Sabbath. And nobody here says that this 7th day Sabbath has ended, whatever, it is that you mean by that. The 7th day Sabbath was established by God on the day that he ended his work, for He rested on that day. And this 7th day is forever that day that God rested from all His work. Nothing can ever change that. As an additional comment, nothing can change the day that Christ died on the cross, and the day that He resurrected from the dead. All are holy and are most worthy to be kept in remembrance, even every day in the life of the child of God. It's not the day, but the holy remembrance of it, to the glory of God.

Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>

What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.

Which verses say nothing about no one hearing what God said, or ever observing a Sabbath. These are your thoughts, not scripture. Just as my assumption that His words were heard and no doubt heeded. Though scripture does not say either way. Nevertheless, we have scriptural testimony that Abraham kept God's laws and commandments before scripture ever mentions them. At the very least then, He must have told Abraham about them. Or do you think he just guessed what they were?

What I have shown you is written in scriptures. No assumptions there Amo. We don't need to assume. What we need to do is accept and believe what is revealed in scriptures. So, go ahead and see what is revealed from Adam to up to before Moses. See for yourself if there was anything ever written about the 7th day Sabbath, during those generations.

You have refuted nothing but in your own mind. Scripture simply does not say that no one kept Sabbath at all until it was given to Israel. To the contrary, the first day of Adam and Eve's lives was the Sabbath. Do you think God rested and put them to work? What do you think they did on their first day of life, which was the Sabbath of God? What you think, in no way shape or form equals the word of God. If you want to think you have refuted what I believe,  by all means do so, I of course do not agree.

[Amo]

No, nobody in those generations guessed Amo. The point being is that, of all that was written and revealed in scriptures, for the child of God to know, in those times and generation, there was nothing about the 7th day Sabbath

.

Yes, there was something about the seventh day Sabbath. God established it at creation. You presume that was the end of it, I assume it was likely part of the statutes, commandments, and laws Abraham kept. Neither can be proved from scripture. God observed it the first day of Adam and Eve's creation, I can think of no good reason why they would not have observed it with Him, can you? Having once observed it, would they then just forget about it? None of this can be proved from scripture, it simply is not addressed. You have your reasons for choosing to believe the Sabbath had no significance until Israel I am sure, just as I have mine. Neither can be absolutely proved from scripture.

As to what is written, such as the offering of a sacrifice to God, that certainly was not coming from a law written in stones, but is coming from a law written within the man by God. And what law is written there, we come to know, through what is revealed in scriptures. So you can go to Genesis to know that. And even, you can go to Rom.1 to know of that as well. But, of course the SDA would be disappointed to learn that there is not mention of the 7th day sabbath, be it observed or not.

No one said anything about a law written in stone. Nor do I believe those who followed God just guessed what to do, or just knew instinctively what to do. God revealed it to them. SDA's know there is no mention of Sabbath observance until Israel. They are not disappointed to find out what they already know. You are not making a new revelation to anyone.

Where did I say that people were totally ignorant of God's will for them? It amazes me. And to the contrary, did I not say that Paul said that they knew God and know the judgment of God? So, the rest of what you say here are out of line and out of place.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Either they knew of God or they didn't. Paul testifies that they did.

That's right, Abraham may well knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. But as to what these are, if there is any hint, the 7th day Sabbath apparently is not among them. Read and see the hints in Genesis 12-17 and Romans 1.

I have read them. You assume the whole of all interaction between God and Abraham is recorded apparently. I do not. The scriptures do not record all the details of anyone's life, and that is a good thing. They would not be finished to this day otherwise.

You just keep on saying and point to Gen.2:1-3, which is not even a commandment or law that one must do. No matter how you force it, it's just not a law, but the day that God rested from His work.

I don't believe I have ever said it was a law. I say it was established at creation. It precedes all of God's laws for humanity. It was established before any other. You choose to believe it was ignored by all or not even thought of until Israel, I think that highly unlikely. 

And apparently you are not reading in scriptures why the law was given to Israel through Moses.

Same old, same old, same old. I have read the scriptures just like you my friend. God did not give the ten commandments through Moses. He spoke them Himself to Israel, and wrote them for Israel with His own hand as well.

[Amo]

Why have you been avoiding these two questions, especially that in Heb.4:10? Can you please kindly address them?

I'm not avoiding anything. I'm pretty sure I addressed it already. It's about entering God's rest, exactly what the Sabbath is a sign of. What specifically are you asking about it?

[Michael2012]

No, nobody in those generations guessed Amo. The point being is that, of all that was written and revealed in scriptures, for the child of God to know, in those times and generation, there was nothing about the 7th day Sabbath

.

Yes, there was something about the seventh day Sabbath. God established it at creation. You presume that was the end of it, I assume it was likely part of the statutes, commandments, and laws Abraham kept. Neither can be proved from scripture. God observed it the first day of Adam and Eve's creation, I can think of no good reason why they would not have observed it with Him, can you? Having once observed it, would they then just forget about it? None of this can be proved from scripture, it simply is not addressed. You have your reasons for choosing to believe the Sabbath had no significance until Israel I am sure, just as I have mine. Neither can be absolutely proved from scripture.

In that case then, there is no real cause for arguing the matter of the Sabbath, isn't it?

But perhaps we can agree that in scriptures, we can read the commandments regarding the Sabbath in Exodus and that God gave it to Israel in the wilderness at Mt. Sinai for them to keep.

As to what is written, such as the offering of a sacrifice to God, that certainly was not coming from a law written in stones, but is coming from a law written within the man by God. And what law is written there, we come to know, through what is revealed in scriptures. So you can go to Genesis to know that. And even, you can go to Rom.1 to know of that as well. But, of course the SDA would be disappointed to learn that there is not mention of the 7th day sabbath, be it observed or not.

No one said anything about a law written in stone. Nor do I believe those who followed God just guessed what to do, or just knew instinctively what to do. God revealed it to them. SDA's know there is no mention of Sabbath observance until Israel. They are not disappointed to find out what they already know. You are not making a new revelation to anyone.

Of course definitely God gave them revelation. HOW, is the matter. And from Adam, no law was written in stones or what have they then to write upon. Nor can we read of a time then that God gave commandments, not to mean that He certainly did not. But what is sure is that, after the fall of Adam, men began to have SOME knowledge of good and evil. That would mean that they have knowledge and sense of morality, of what is righteous and what is not, what is offensive to God and what is pleasing to God.

Where did I say that people were totally ignorant of God's will for them? It amazes me. And to the contrary, did I not say that Paul said that they knew God and know the judgment of God? So, the rest of what you say here are out of line and out of place.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Either they knew of God or they didn't. Paul testifies that they did.

Yes, Paul states that they knew God. And that is what I said in my post.

That's right, Abraham may well knew and kept God's statutes, commandments, and laws. But as to what these are, if there is any hint, the 7th day Sabbath apparently is not among them. Read and see the hints in Genesis 12-17 and Romans 1.

I have read them. You assume the whole of all interaction between God and Abraham is recorded apparently. I do not. The scriptures do not record all the details of anyone's life, and that is a good thing. They would not be finished to this day otherwise.

I don't assume anything Amo. I was just pointing out what one can learn from what is written in scriptures.

You just keep on saying and point to Gen.2:1-3, which is not even a commandment or law that one must do. No matter how you force it, it's just not a law, but the day that God rested from His work.

I don't believe I have ever said it was a law. I say it was established at creation. It precedes all of God's laws for humanity. It was established before any other. You choose to believe it was ignored by all or not even thought of until Israel, I think that highly unlikely.

And I did not say that you did.  But in our discussion, what you are saying that is established at creation seems to imply that you are speaking of a law on the 7th day Sabbath, for we are talking about the 4th commandment. That is why I have been asking to clarify if what is established at creation in Gen.2:1-3, is a law or is God's rest. For, it is very material to this discussion for you to answer this. So, is it a law or not?

And apparently you are not reading in scriptures why the law was given to Israel through Moses.

Same old, same old, same old. I have read the scriptures just like you my friend. God did not give the ten commandments through Moses. He spoke them Himself to Israel, and wrote them for Israel with His own hand as well.

The matter is WHY the ten commandments, statutes, and laws, were given by God to Israel. In your reading of scriptures, have you known WHY?

[Michael2012]

Why have you been avoiding these two questions, especially that in Heb.4:10? Can you please kindly address them?

I'm not avoiding anything. I'm pretty sure I addressed it already. It's about entering God's rest, exactly what the Sabbath is a sign of. What specifically are you asking about it?

Let's leave the other matter and focus on this.

Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
"So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest,'"
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; [c] 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said:
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

What does verse 10 tells you? Or better yet what does the passage tells you in verse 10 in connection to God's rest on the 7th day spoken of in verse 4?

[Michael2012]

You have not refuted that Genesis 2:1-3 evidently is not some law or command. And that what it is, a testimony of what God did after He finished creating on the 6th day of Genesis. And that it tells us that on the seventh day God ended his work, and He rested. And that it also tells us that God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it. And that the reason given as to why God blessed and sanctified that day, is because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

I don't have to refute anything you say. God established the seventh day sabbath at creation. I don't care if you think it was a law or not. It was established at creation, and has existed ever since. Nothing you say or do can change that. You are dust just like me, here today, gone tomorrow. The word of God is forever. When He speaks it is, and none can change it save Himself. Nothing you or all humanity with you can say or do, will end the seventh day Sabbath established by God at creation.

If you don't or can't, then my position remains and stands to refute your position on Gen. 2:1-3. And clearly now, what God established is not a law, but the 7th day Sabbath. And nobody here says that this 7th day Sabbath has ended, whatever, it is that you mean by that. The 7th day Sabbath was established by God on the day that he ended his work, for He rested on that day. And this 7th day is forever that day that God rested from all His work. Nothing can ever change that. As an additional comment, nothing can change the day that Christ died on the cross, and the day that He resurrected from the dead. All are holy and are most worthy to be kept in remembrance, even every day in the life of the child of God. It's not the day, but the holy remembrance of it, to the glory of God.

Amo: <<You choose to believe that God sanctified a day for rest at creation, and then didn't tell anyone about it for two thousand years.>>

What I believe is what Gen. 2:1-3 says.

Which verses say nothing about no one hearing what God said, or ever observing a Sabbath. These are your thoughts, not scripture. Just as my assumption that His words were heard and no doubt heeded. Though scripture does not say either way. Nevertheless, we have scriptural testimony that Abraham kept God's laws and commandments before scripture ever mentions them. At the very least then, He must have told Abraham about them. Or do you think he just guessed what they were?

What I have shown you is written in scriptures. No assumptions there Amo. We don't need to assume. What we need to do is accept and believe what is revealed in scriptures. So, go ahead and see what is revealed from Adam to up to before Moses. See for yourself if there was anything ever written about the 7th day Sabbath, during those generations.

You have refuted nothing but in your own mind. Scripture simply does not say that no one kept Sabbath at all until it was given to Israel. To the contrary, the first day of Adam and Eve's lives was the Sabbath. Do you think God rested and put them to work? What do you think they did on their first day of life, which was the Sabbath of God? What you think, in no way shape or form equals the word of God. If you want to think you have refuted what I believe,  by all means do so, I of course do not agree.

But let me talk about what is written in scriptures and what it says, rather than what is does not say. From Adam up to before Moses, what is written is that these generation of man was wicked. And that they have committed sins of all sorts that even caused God to literally destroy and kill all of man, saved Noah and those with him in the ark. You would assume, I'd guess, that men violated the Sabbath during those times, right? But even granting that your assumption is true, for the sake of argument, do you not ask the question, why scriptures does not mention of it nor hinted about it being violated? Or do you assume further that it was kept all throughout these generations and no one violated it?

Amo: << To the contrary, the first day of Adam and Eve's lives was the Sabbath. Do you think God rested and put them to work? What do you think they did on their first day of life, which was the Sabbath of God?>>

The 7th day was not the first day of Adam and Eve. They were created on the 6th and so that was their first day. Read Gen.2: 7-25 what Adam did on that day.

[DMA]

Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.

In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.

Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?

Gen. 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.

It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.

Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses. 

What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.

So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness  in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.

Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! 

What a surprise, you agree with Michael, I would have never guessed it. I think comparing the above to Stephen's testimony was going quite a bit to far though. But hey, I guess we all choose our own hero's.

I agree with Michael because he states the truth of scripture that no one is recorded in the entire book of Genesis, including Abraham, as having either known about a command to keep the sabbath, let alone kept a sabbath. All you have is assumptions Amo that persons in Genesis kept a sabbath commandment. You don't have a "Thus saith the Lord" now do you? But I have a "Thus saith the Lord" telling me that the sabbath was made known by the hand (i.e. writing) of Moses. Hear what scripture DOES say:

You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments. You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant.

When does scripture say God revealed His sabbath to mankind? First in Exodus 16:23-30, and then in Exodus 20:8-10 at Mt. Sinai. And how did God reveal His sabbath to mankind? By the hand of Moses His servant, just as scripture says.

Now, where's your "Thus saith the Lord" Amo?? Or are we simply to go on your assumptions that the people in Genesis must have kept the sabbath because it says that Abraham kept God's commandments, statutes, and judgments (as though scripture must fit within your understanding of what those things are)? We have a clear testimony from scripture that the sabbath was made known through Moses. You have your assumptions. Guess which outweighs the other Amo?

[DMA]

I can only guess that you two are secret Jesuits out to destroy the SDA Church and then afterward dominate the earth with Sunday Law!

Shhhh...you'll reveal our secret plan

Just act natural 

Yea, some big secret. Been non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years, and a bunch of people pushing for them today.

Besides not being able to take what is clearly a joke, please quote for us these "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" so that I may review them. I asked you before for references to the many Sunday laws you referred to in a previous comment, but you were unable to provide any. Again I ask you, show these Sunday laws you speak of over the past 1600-1700 years. I'll wait...

[Amo]

The matter is WHY the ten commandments, statutes, and laws, were given by God to Israel. In your reading of scriptures, have you known WHY?

The scriptures say quite a bit about the law and its purpose.


Ex 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.


It was given to Israel, that they might be a peculiar treasure to God above all people. That they might be a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. I know, this probably isn't what you were looking for. We'll get to those verses eventually.

Deut 26:17 Thou hast avouched the Lord this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice: 18 And the Lord hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments; 19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the Lord thy God, as he hath spoken.

The same again. To be God's peculiar people, raising them high above all nations, as a holy people unto the Lord. Still not what your looking for I'm sure.

Ps 19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. 7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

The law was given to convert the soul, to make the simple wise, to rejoice the heart, and enlighten the eyes. Is this the scriptures you were looking for?

Ps 78:1Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. 2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: 3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. 4 We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the Lord, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done. 5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children: 6 That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children: 7 That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:

The law was given to Israel that they and their children might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God. Are these them?

Ps 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the Lord. 2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart. 3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. 4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently. 5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes! 6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

Are these what you are looking for? That Israel might do no iniquity, that they be not ashamed?

Ps 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. 99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. 101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word. 102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me. 103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

How about these scriptures? He gave them His commandments to make them wiser than their enemies, to give them understanding, that they might refrain from evil, to be a light unto their feet, and a light unto their path. Is this what you are looking for?


Ps 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth...................................
151 Thou art near, O Lord; and all thy commandments are truth.

Maybe this is what you are referring to. The law was given that we might have the truth. Is that it?

Ps 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

This is a good one. He gave His law that Israel might have peace, and not be offended. Perhaps this is what you are referring to.

Mt 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Maybe this is getting closer to home, since it is in the NT. The law was given so that Israel and all I reckon,  would learn to do unto others, as they wished others to do unto them. Is this what you are looking for?

Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Another good one from the NT. It was given that we might love God with all our heart, and our neighbors as ourselves. Maybe this is what you refer to.

Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law was given that all the world might become guilty before God. Is this what you are looking for?

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The law was given, that the offence of sin might be magnified.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law was given to reveal sin, that sin might be seen to be exceeding sinful. The law and commandments are holy, just, and good. It is spiritual, while we are carnal. Is this what you are looking for?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Perhaps the above is what you were looking for. The law was given because of transgression. To lead the transgressor to Christ for justification. This, that all who believe might no longer be under the condemnation of the law. That we might become the children of Abraham, that is the children of faith. Is this what you were looking for?

Do you suppose this faith does away with the law? Abraham was the father of the faith being referred to, and the scriptures testify that he kept God's laws, statutes, and commandments. Obviously, as the father of the faith we are all called to exercise, he did not keep those laws, statutes, and commandments in order to be saved, but because he was already saved by faith.


1 Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. 12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Again, the law as given "for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" to drive them to Christ. Which is exactly what it did to Paul, who considered himself the chief of sinners. How about you, are you a sinner that needs salvation in Christ Jesus? I know I am. Shall we go on and on? The ten commandments are the standard of righteousness given by God to humanity to reveal to us our deadly deficiencies. They are to lead us to Christ for forgiveness and justification as an enduring standard of perfection in Him. This as well as all of the rest of the benefits the scriptures we have examined point out. Does this answer your question?

[Amo]

Let's leave the other matter and focus on this.

Hebrews 4:1-11
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
"So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest,'"
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; [c] 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest."
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said:
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts."
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

What does verse 10 tells you? Or better yet what does the passage tells you in verse 10 in connection to God's rest on the 7th day spoken of in verse 4?

The sabbath is a sign of entering into God's rest. We enter into His rest by faith which brings about obedience to God. We cease from our own labors of sin, and rest in God by obedience. Thus escaping the lack of faith and disobedience of the children of Israel who would not enter into God's rest.

[Amo]

If you don't or can't, then my position remains and stands to refute your position on Gen. 2:1-3. And clearly now, what God established is not a law, but the 7th day Sabbath. And nobody here says that this 7th day Sabbath has ended, whatever, it is that you mean by that. The 7th day Sabbath was established by God on the day that he ended his work, for He rested on that day. And this 7th day is forever that day that God rested from all His work. Nothing can ever change that. As an additional comment, nothing can change the day that Christ died on the cross, and the day that He resurrected from the dead. All are holy and are most worthy to be kept in remembrance, even every day in the life of the child of God. It's not the day, but the holy remembrance of it, to the glory of God.

You may believe what ever you wish, but the bible does not teach anything you said above. It does say the sabbath was established at creation, It was given to Israel as the fourth commandment, a blessing was pronounced upon others apart from Israel also who would keep it, Jesus kept it, the early Christians kept it, and the bible says it will be kept in the new heaven and earth. God blessed and sanctified the day, and never took that blessing or sanctification away. Nor did He or do the scriptures ever say that the day now represents every day of Christians lives in God's rest, therefore the seventh day no longer needs to be observed by faith in God's command. This is what you and yours claim. It is not in scripture.

What I have shown you is written in scriptures. No assumptions there Amo. We don't need to assume. What we need to do is accept and believe what is revealed in scriptures. So, go ahead and see what is revealed from Adam to up to before Moses. See for yourself if there was anything ever written about the 7th day Sabbath, during those generations.

I'm not the one in denial here.

Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Since when do the above scriptures in Genesis, mean that the scriptures say nothing about the seventh day Sabbath from Adam to Moses. You are in denial of what is right in front of your face. You want to make the above words of scripture fit your own chosen understanding in direct contradiction of the word of God.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

What part of the above explanation for the Sabbath in the commandment itself do you not understand? The Lord blessed the Sabbath day at creation. It doesn't get any simpler than that. You are denying the words of the fourth commandment spoken by the mouth of God to Israel and written with His own hand in tables of stone. It is right in front of your face in scripture, yet you deny it.  Again, I am not the one here in denial.

But let me talk about what is written in scriptures and what it says, rather than what is does not say. From Adam up to before Moses, what is written is that these generation of man was wicked. And that they have committed sins of all sorts that even caused God to literally destroy and kill all of man, saved Noah and those with him in the ark. You would assume, I'd guess, that men violated the Sabbath during those times, right? But even granting that your assumption is true, for the sake of argument, do you not ask the question, why scriptures does not mention of it nor hinted about it being violated? Or do you assume further that it was kept all throughout these generations and no one violated it?

If you are willing to talk about what is written in scripture, then please address why God says right in His fourth commandment, that the day He blessed and sanctified at creation was the Sabbath? Why do you deny and argue against this plain and simple fact? I have no idea what happened in relation to Sabbath observance from Adam to Moses, and neither do you, it is not recorded. On the other hand, it is not hard at all to deduce that a world filled with those whose desires are bent upon evil only, did of concern themselves with Sabbath observance or anything else that God may have desired. We know the Sabbath was established at creation, we know that some sort of sacrificial offering was communicated by the story of Cain and Abel, and we know that Abraham kept God's laws, statutes, and commandments. These things we know from scripture. No other details are provided.

[Amo]

Now, perhaps it would be good to walk you through from Genesis to Exodus.

In the beginning, God created everything, He did so in 6 days. And on the 7th day, God ended his work which he had made, and he rested. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, because that in it he had rested from all his work.

Now, we have Adam and Eve. Of everything that God said and commanded them, there is but one thing that God told them not to do, that is, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But then they ate of the tree. What happened?

Gen. 3:7  And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

They came to know of what is good and what is evil. And we know the rest of what happened to them.

It came to pass that they have multiplied, having sons and daughters. The first time that God spoke with man again, was with Cain. And in this account in Gen.4, what we can learn is of the judgment of God on what Cain has done. There is nothing about the 7th day Sabbath. And it came to pass, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose, and they bare children to them. It was at this time that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. There was a point in time, of all men, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And we know the story of Noah. God had brought to death all except Noah and those with him in the ark. It was at this point that God made a covenant with man, that is, Noah. But, in this covenant, which can be read in Gen.8-9 does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath.
 
Now, came the time of Abraham. And it came to pass that God spoke to Abraham, and made promises to him and to his seed, and made a covenant with him which token of the covenant is the circumcision of the flesh. Now, in this covenant, God gave commandments to Abraham, which can be read in Gen. 12-17 and does not speak of the matter of the 7th day Sabbath commandment. Even from the dealings of God with Abraham, even up to Isaac and Jacob, the matter of the 7th day Sabbath is not mentioned and spoken about. It was only, with Moses and the Israelites, that the matter of the Sabbath came in. Let me pause here to look and examine what became of man from Adam to before the time of Moses. 

What can we say during the time from Adam to before Moses? It has already been said that those generation up to Noah were wicked. And so with the next generation up to Jacob. We can take a detailed look at all of these in Rom. 1. Paul says of them, that they knew God, yet they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. They changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. They changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator. They were filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful. They know the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, and also even they that have pleasure in them that do them.

So, up until Moses, the matter of the 7th day, the Sabbath, is neither mentioned to have been kept or violated. And no commandment from God was ever mentioned given in this regard, nor there is any hint that it was in the knowledge of the generations then. Those evil that was mentioned to have been committed, would lead us to think that man knew these things as evil and that God is displeased and angered by all of these things. This may well be brought about by Adam's eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The first time that the 7th day Sabbath was mentioned and commanded by God was to Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness  in their exodus from Egypt. Read Exodus 16 to know as to why the 7th day Sabbath was commanded. And the time came when God made a covenant with them. It was in this covenant that God gave the ten commandments, which included "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy". The commandments that God gave to them to keep and the judgments can be read in Exodus 20-23.

Repeating the same thing over and again and at greater length, does not change anything. The scriptures tell us when the Sabbath was established. It was established at creation. Genesis records it, and the fourth commandment confirms this. Denying this because the scriptures don't address who did or did not keep the Sabbath until Moses, is unsound reasoning. If you want to think no one kept it go ahead, but if you deny its existence when the word of God conclusively records its origin at creation and confirmation of the same in the fourth commandment, then you are just in denial. That is all.

[Amo]

Nice breakdown of the facts from Genesis, Michael. It reminded me of St. Stephen recounting the history of Israel to the Sanhedrin. It is a truth that God did not reveal the sabbath to anyone before the time of Moses since it was through him that it was made known (see Nehemiah 9:14). Adventists like Amo want the scriptures to say what they want them to say, that the people in Genesis knew about and kept the sabbath just as Ellen White their prophetess taught them. This isn't true and contradicts the scripture's testimony. The fact is the sabbath was first made known to mankind (the Hebrews) in Exodus 16:23-30. Again, well done sir! 

What a surprise, you agree with Michael, I would have never guessed it. I think comparing the above to Stephen's testimony was going quite a bit to far though. But hey, I guess we all choose our own hero's.

[Amo]

I agree with Michael because he states the truth of scripture that no one is recorded in the entire book of Genesis, including Abraham, as having either known about a command to keep the sabbath, let alone kept a sabbath. All you have is assumptions Amo that persons in Genesis kept a sabbath commandment. You don't have a "Thus saith the Lord" now do you? But I have a "Thus saith the Lord" telling me that the sabbath was made known by the hand (i.e. writing) of Moses. Hear what scripture DOES say:
Quote from: Nehemiah 9:13-14
You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments. You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant.

When does scripture say God revealed His sabbath to mankind? First in Exodus 16:23-30, and then in Exodus 20:8-10 at Mt. Sinai. And how did God reveal His sabbath to mankind? By the hand of Moses His servant, just as scripture says.

Now, where's your "Thus saith the Lord" Amo?? Or are we simply to go on your assumptions that the people in Genesis must have kept the sabbath because it says that Abraham kept God's commandments, statutes, and judgments (as though scripture must fit within your understanding of what those things are)? We have a clear testimony from scripture that the sabbath was made known through Moses. You have your assumptions. Guess which outweighs the other Amo?

Same ignorant argument. The Sabbath was established at creation according to scripture. You assume God just decided to establish it but didn't tell anyone about it, or expect anyone to make it special just because He blessed and sanctified it immediately after the creation of the world and everything in it. You think that is sound deduction, I do not. Nothing can be proved from scripture either way. Nevertheless, God established the Sabbath at creation.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

[Amo]

Besides not being able to take what is clearly a joke, please quote for us these "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" so that I may review them. I asked you before for references to the many Sunday laws you referred to in a previous comment, but you were unable to provide any. Again I ask you, show these Sunday laws you speak of over the past 1600-1700 years. I'll wait...

Here, try this page -

http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n0/mode/2up

[DMA]

Besides not being able to take what is clearly a joke, please quote for us these "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" so that I may review them. I asked you before for references to the many Sunday laws you referred to in a previous comment, but you were unable to provide any. Again I ask you, show these Sunday laws you speak of over the past 1600-1700 years. I'll wait...

Here, try this page -

http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n0/mode/2up

It is unacceptable to reference someone to an entire book when asked to provide evidence for one's assertion, Amo. Since you made the assertion of "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" it is, therefore, incumbent upon you to provide your evidence of the same when it is requested of you. Otherwise, your assertion remains unfounded. And your evidence cannot be, "Read this book!" That is unacceptable in any debate.

[Amo]

Besides not being able to take what is clearly a joke, please quote for us these "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" so that I may review them. I asked you before for references to the many Sunday laws you referred to in a previous comment, but you were unable to provide any. Again I ask you, show these Sunday laws you speak of over the past 1600-1700 years. I'll wait...

Here, try this page -

http://www.archive.org/stream/sundaylegislat00lewi#page/n0/mode/2up

It is unacceptable to reference someone to an entire book when asked to provide evidence for one's assertion, Amo. Since you made the assertion of "non stop Sunday laws all over the last 1600 or 1700 years" it is, therefore, incumbent upon you to provide your evidence of the same when it is requested of you. Otherwise, your assertion remains unfounded. And your evidence cannot be, "Read this book!" That is unacceptable in any debate.

Right, like I'm going to go copy and paste over and over again, which I do plenty enough of, when you can just look the book over yourself. I don't think so. The book is filled with what you asked for, its online, and you can take a peek whenever you have time. Just look up blue laws on your search engine, and you'll have plenty to take in.

[Texas Conservative]

Blue laws in the past are irrelevant to the future.

The post-Christian culture in the United States and the rest of the world will not impose Catholic blue laws on commerce.

[Amo]

Blue laws in the past are irrelevant to the future.

The post-Christian culture in the United States and the rest of the world will not impose Catholic blue laws on commerce.

There are still blue laws in effect where I live, and many other places. There are still many trying to reestablish them. Sunday laws of the future will no doubt take on a new guise, they will not be able to be passed as religious laws. They will be tied to the common good.

[Hobie]

Amo<<The sabbath days mentioned are at the end of a list of other laws written by the hand of Moses specifically for the literal nation of Israel. They are sabbaths connected with the same, not the ten commandments which were written by the finger of God. It is not possible that the sabbath of the fourth commandment is one of the commandments and doctrines of men Paul was speaking of in Col. 2 as verse 22 of the same clearly points out.>>

What I understand is that, your position with regards to the Sabbaths mentioned in Col.2 is that they are not referring to the sabbath of the fourth commandment by reason of verse 22.

May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians?

1.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2. And six years thou shalt sow thy land, and shalt gather in the fruits thereof:
But the seventh year thou shalt let it rest and lie still; that the poor of thy people may eat: and what they leave the beasts of the field shall eat. In like manner thou shalt deal with thy vineyard, and with thy oliveyard. Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

3. Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death. Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

4. 'These are the animals which you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth: Among the animals, whatever divides the hoof, having cloven hooves and chewing the cud—that you may eat. Nevertheless these you shall not eat among those that chew the cud or those that have cloven hooves: the camel, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the rock hyrax, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; the hare, because it chews the cud but does not have cloven hooves, is unclean to you; and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch. They are unclean to you.

5.'These you may eat of all that are in the water: whatever in the water has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers—that you may eat.

6. 'These are the feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.'"

7. 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.'

8. 'The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days to the Lord. On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it. For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it.

9. 'When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10 And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger:

And Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so?

Finally, Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath? On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?


The fourth commandment concerning the seventh day Sabbath is one of the ten spoken by the mouth of God Himself to the nation of Israel and written with His own finger twice in stone. No man can alter any of them but at the peril of their life. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ testified to this when here as one of us.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The rest of the laws for the nation of Israel were written by the hand of man. Some were absolutely meant to be done away with after the establishment of the new covenant era and the opening of the blessings of God upon citizens of all nations of the earth by faith in Christ Jesus the Savior of humanity. This, as the OT itself prophesied.

Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Genesis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Genesis 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Isaiah speaks quite a bit about the salvation of the gentiles also. The seventh day Sabbath predates the Jews by two thousand years. It was given to humanity immediately after creation and before the fall. Perfect humanity created in the image of God were to observe the seventh day. It will also be kept in the new heaven and new earth after the judgment of this world according to Isaiah as well.

Isa 66:12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. 14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.  16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord. 18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The saints of God in these last days especially shall keep the commandments of God and have the faith and or testimony of Jesus. That is, they shall keep the commandments of God by the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


Amo,

Apparently you have not answered most of my questions as listed below. But if you have, I'm sorry, I don't quite get what they are. So, if you are kind enough, can you please first give a direct answer and if needed, you can go on and explain it.

1. May I ask then, whose commandment do you say are the following, among others, and to whom do you say are the commandments for ~ Gentiles, Jews, Christians? (pls refer to the above discussion)

2.  Amo, to whom do you say the ten commandments, which include the sabbath - the 4th, were for ~ all the nations of the world or to the nation of Israel? If for all the nations of the world, could you cite scriptures that says so? (pls refer to the above discussion)

3. Amo, on the one hand, can you point to a scripture in the NT that speaks of a commandment to the Christians with regards the 4th commandment that God gave to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and what they do on the Sabbath?

4. On the other hand, do you know of a scripture in the NT that speaks about what the early Christians do in the first day of the week?

I'll be commenting on the rest of what you posted and on your reply to this at the same time. And so, please be kind enough to answer my simple questions. Thanks.

Where were the Jews when the Sabbath was made, Christ makes clear it was for mankind at Creation.

[piecrust]

Where were the Jews when the Sabbath was made, Christ makes clear it was for mankind at Creation.

Where?

[Michael2012]

Will Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians?

Worshipping God, at no time or day and place, be said to be a bad thing or wrong, much more be the downfall of many Christians.

[beam]

Anyone who believes that Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians has been duped.  First of all I don't know of anyone that worships Sunday.  I do know that millions worship on Sunday.  Is there some place in the Bible that is opposed for anyone to worship on Sunday?  Please show us where so that we can modify our behavior.  If you cannot show us then quit telling us all the SDA falsehood.

[Amo]

Where?

Mk 2:23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. 24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? 26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

The Sabbath was made for humanity by Jesus Christ who created all the world and humanity 2000 years before there ever was an Israelite. Do you think your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was unaware of tis when He made the above quoted statement? He created the Sabbath for humanity as He plainly stated.

Col :13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

[Texas Conservative]

Anyone who believes that Sunday worship be the downfall of many Christians has been duped.  First of all I don't know of anyone that worships Sunday.  I do know that millions worship on Sunday.  Is there some place in the Bible that is opposed for anyone to worship on Sunday?  Please show us where so that we can modify our behavior.  If you cannot show us then quit telling us all the SDA falsehood.

Saturn worshippers don't have any real biblical proof against meeting together on the Lord's Day.

[Amo]

Sunday worship has already been the downfall of many a professed Christian, is their downfall today, and will continue to be their downfall in the future. All who have supported and enforced Sunday laws with civil legislation upon any unwilling have and do malign the character of God in Christ Jesus His Son. All "Christians" who seek to and do establish their faith through compulsion of state laws have rejected the Holy Spirit of God in favor of fallen humanity for the conviction and establishment of souls into the body of Christ. They have rejected the Savior as the head of His body in favor of Caesar as their Lord.

Lk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? 23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? 24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. 25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. 26 And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

All who would make the kingdom of Christ a kingdom of this world will perish with this world.

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

The Sabbath was NOT "made", <at> creation; God "made" the SEVENTH Day AFTER He had created "very good" ALL that He had created "in SIX days .. and it was the Sixth Day".

"On the SEVENTH Day" which is the day directly following "the Sixth Day" which is the last of the first six days which God had created <at creation>, "God (having) blessed the Seventh Day .. hallowed the Seventh Day .. finished the Seventh Day .. RESTED the Seventh Day" and thus "made the Sabbath".

God "made the Sabbath" by having MADE "the Seventh Day the Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" -- which was God's WORK OF AND ON "the Seventh Day God THUS CONCERNING DID SPEAK .. BY THE SON .. THE SON OF MAN LORD OF THE SABBATH OF THE LORD GOD OF HIS PEOPLE THE PEOPLE OF GOD.

[Texas Conservative]

Sunday worship has already been the downfall of many a professed Christian, is their downfall today, and will continue to be their downfall in the future. All who have supported and enforced Sunday laws with civil legislation upon any unwilling have and do malign the character of God in Christ Jesus His Son. All "Christians" who seek to and do establish their faith through compulsion of state laws have rejected the Holy Spirit of God in favor of fallen humanity for the conviction and establishment of souls into the body of Christ. They have rejected the Savior as the head of His body in favor of Caesar as their Lord.

Lk 20:22 Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? 23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? 24 Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. 25 And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. 26 And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

All who would make the kingdom of Christ a kingdom of this world will perish with this world.

Does not apply at all to me or my brethren.

[Amo]

Does not apply at all to me or my brethren.

That is a good thing.

[Hobie]

.

Yes, there was something about the seventh day Sabbath. God established it at creation. You presume that was the end of it, I assume it was likely part of the statutes, commandments, and laws Abraham kept. Neither can be proved from scripture. God observed it the first day of Adam and Eve's creation, I can think of no good reason why they would not have observed it with Him, can you? Having once observed it, would they then just forget about it? None of this can be proved from scripture, it simply is not addressed. You have your reasons for choosing to believe the Sabbath had no significance until Israel I am sure, just as I have mine. Neither can be absolutely proved from scripture.

In that case then, there is no real cause for arguing the matter of the Sabbath, isn't it?

But perhaps we can agree that in scriptures, we can read the commandments regarding the Sabbath in Exodus and that God gave it to Israel in the wilderness at Mt. Sinai for them to keep.

No one said anything about a law written in stone. Nor do I believe those who followed God just guessed what to do, or just knew instinctively what to do. God revealed it to them. SDA's know there is no mention of Sabbath observance until Israel. They are not disappointed to find out what they already know. You are not making a new revelation to anyone.

Of course definitely God gave them revelation. HOW, is the matter. And from Adam, no law was written in stones or what have they then to write upon. Nor can we read of a time then that God gave commandments, not to mean that He certainly did not. But what is sure is that, after the fall of Adam, men began to have SOME knowledge of good and evil. That would mean that they have knowledge and sense of morality, of what is righteous and what is not, what is offensive to God and what is pleasing to God.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Either they knew of God or they didn't. Paul testifies that they did.

Yes, Paul states that they knew God. And that is what I said in my post.

I have read them. You assume the whole of all interaction between God and Abraham is recorded apparently. I do not. The scriptures do not record all the details of anyone's life, and that is a good thing. They would not be finished to this day otherwise.

I don't assume anything Amo. I was just pointing out what one can learn from what is written in scriptures.

I don't believe I have ever said it was a law. I say it was established at creation. It precedes all of God's laws for humanity. It was established before any other. You choose to believe it was ignored by all or not even thought of until Israel, I think that highly unlikely.

And I did not say that you did.  But in our discussion, what you are saying that is established at creation seems to imply that you are speaking of a law on the 7th day Sabbath, for we are talking about the 4th commandment. That is why I have been asking to clarify if what is established at creation in Gen.2:1-3, is a law or is God's rest. For, it is very material to this discussion for you to answer this. So, is it a law or not?

Same old, same old, same old. I have read the scriptures just like you my friend. God did not give the ten commandments through Moses. He spoke them Himself to Israel, and wrote them for Israel with His own hand as well.


The matter is WHY the ten commandments, statutes, and laws, were given by God to Israel. In your reading of scriptures, have you known WHY?

Its what Gods governance is based on.

[garee]

Its what Gods governance is based on.

Hobie, I would offer the word REST.

God finished His work and rested the seventh day:

"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work." — Genesis 2:2

The important principle is finished work followed by rest.

Hebrews carries that principle forward:

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." — Hebrews 4:10

That is why I see the seventh day as pointing beyond a twenty-four-hour ceremonial observance to the eternal rest found in Christ's finished work.

The six days speak of the work; the seventh speaks of REST—the work finished.

Likewise, the ceremonial Sabbath and its fast were shadows pointing ahead. Christ later gave the promised three-day-and-three-night sign of Jonas, demonstrating what had already been promised in the Scriptures.

"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." — Hebrews 4:9

Nothing new under the sun. The shadows did not create the finished work; they pointed ahead to it. The Gospel reveals the spiritual reality that was hidden in those ceremonial pictures.

The command therefore reaches deeper than observe a day:

Enter His REST.

[Amo]

Hobie, I would offer the word REST.

God finished His work and rested the seventh day:

"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work." — Genesis 2:2

The important principle is finished work followed by rest.

Hebrews carries that principle forward:

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." — Hebrews 4:10

That is why I see the seventh day as pointing beyond a twenty-four-hour ceremonial observance to the eternal rest found in Christ's finished work.

The six days speak of the work; the seventh speaks of REST—the work finished.

Likewise, the ceremonial Sabbath and its fast were shadows pointing ahead. Christ later gave the promised three-day-and-three-night sign of Jonas, demonstrating what had already been promised in the Scriptures.

"There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." — Hebrews 4:9

Nothing new under the sun. The shadows did not create the finished work; they pointed ahead to it. The Gospel reveals the spiritual reality that was hidden in those ceremonial pictures.

The command therefore reaches deeper than observe a day:

Enter His REST.

Yes, there is nothing new under the sun. Including your above testimony that entering God's rest includes more than the observance of one day. Nor is your continued false insistence that God's seventh day sabbath is part of ceremonial law, or simply a shadow. It is part of God's moral law. Who are you to insist it has deeper meaning than just observing a day, but then turn around and insist that it has no more meaning than a shadow at the same time.

Exo 20:1  And God spake all these words, saying,........
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Who are you to call one of God's ten Commandments spoken into existence by Him at creation, and to all Israel by His own mouth, and written in tables of stone with His own finger, which He has declared will be kept in the New Heaven and New Earth as well, a mere shadow? To the contrary, as the true half of your own argument claims, it represents far deeper realities and continued spiritual significance.