The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity

[cgaviria]

No it doesn't. You have NEVER attempted to befriend anyone here, you have come across as the firing squad and we are all the prosecuted.

Edited for flaming

[Alan]

I'm not here to be your friend, I am here to teach the truth. Obviously, that is going to anger anyone who does not abide in the truth, just like the Pharisees got pissed off at Christ for teaching the truth. Once you come to the truth, then we can be friends. But until then, I will be stern against anyone opposing the truth of scripture. Again, I repeat, and I will continue repeating it like a parrot or broken record until perhaps one of you gets it, the trinity is a false doctrine, which is why the early manuscripts do not have these verses, the original form of Matthew 28:19 is "in my name", which harmonizes with tons of other scriptures where things are done in the name of Jesus only. UNDERSTAND AND OPEN YOUR EYES.

Yep, that's how it's done. 

[MeMyself]

This guy believes Jesus was a created being.  Why waste your time with that?

How people behave, what they believe and things like that fascinate me. I enjoy understanding where others come from, even if I disagree with them.     

[MeMyself]

I'm not here to be your friend, I am here to teach the truth.

I am always amazed when people take this, "Im not here to be your friend. I'm above you, but I'll teach you peasants from up here." Kindness out. A humble heart? Fahgedaboutit.
Its utterly foolish to think that is an effective way to approach people at all.  Course, it works BEAUTIFULLY if you really don't care to convert anyone and only condemn them.

Obviously, that is going to anger anyone who does not abide in the truth, just like the Pharisees got pissed off at Christ for teaching the truth.

In this story, you are not Jesus and the board are not the Pharisees. Sorry.  That probably really chaps your hide, but its truth.

Once you come to the truth, then we can be friends. But until then, I will be stern against anyone opposing the truth of scripture. Again, I repeat, and I will continue repeating it like a parrot or broken record until perhaps one of you gets it, the trinity is a false doctrine, which is why the early manuscripts do not have these verses, the original form of Matthew 28:19 is "in my name", which harmonizes with tons of other scriptures where things are done in the name of Jesus only. UNDERSTAND AND OPEN YOUR EYES.

False doctrine that does what?  Condemns people to hell? 

[pkTy]

I believe the scriptures quoted herein, but not the Nicene Creed itself, which you have quoted. To equate the Nicene Creed as scripture would be like grabbing a Joyce Meyer book and saying, this is scripture. I will also point out that the original creed, which you have modified to suit your own fancy, did you not read as you quoted it, but as so,

"...we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church...."

This is clearly a catholic document, not a document written by any of the apostles. And do not think to even say that "catholic" is referring to the universal church, because if it were, then there would be no need to reference a second church. This is without a doubt a catholic document that errs in a very subtle way.
   


In the rules of this forum its necessary to believe the above which is entirely scriptural. Catholic does means universal BTW.
The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4] The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.

If you believe the above creed, then you believe in the trinity. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
If you can't believe what is said then you need to leave this forum.

The 3 Gods of the Trinity:

The Father of Jesus Christ(John 20:17)
Jesus Christ the Son of the living God(Matthew 16:16)
The Holy Ghost the Spirit of truth(Mark 3:29)   

[faroukfarouk]

The 3 Gods of the Trinity:

The Father of Jesus Christ(John 20:17)
Jesus Christ the Son of the living God(Matthew 16:16)
The Holy Ghost the Spirit of truth(Mark 3:29)

Rather than say 'The 3 Gods of the Trinity' I would say the 3 Persons of the Trinity.

[pkTy]

Rather than say 'The 3 Gods of the Trinity' I would say the 3 Persons of the Trinity.

Why?

[Alan]

Why?

"Three gods" refers to polytheism as opposed to the monotheistic belief in one God that is three beings.

[pkTy]

"Three gods" refers to polytheism as opposed to the monotheistic belief in one God that is three beings.

You believe that God is 3 different beings?

Tell me what you believe?

[faroukfarouk]

"Three gods" refers to polytheism as opposed to the monotheistic belief in one God that is three beings.

Good point indeed.

[pkTy]

Good point indeed.

If you will scroll up and read my previous post...
you will see that I stated "3 Gods" not "3 gods"
THAT IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE
one is the Trinity and the other is not.
Did you factor this into your reasoning?

[faroukfarouk]

If you will scroll up and read my previous post...
you will see that I stated "3 Gods" not "3 gods"
THAT IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE
one is the Trinity and the other is not.
Did you factor this into your reasoning?

I don't agree, because Biblically there is One God, Three Divine Persons.

[pkTy]

I don't agree, because Biblically there is One God, Three Divine Persons.

Why don't you use the word truthfully instead of Biblically?

[pkTy]

I wonder if proving something truthfully doesn't take president over biblical?

[faroukfarouk]

Why don't you use the word truthfully instead of Biblically?

...because for me they are one and the same. 'Thy word is truth' (John 17.17).

[pkTy]

...because for me they are one and the same. 'Thy word is truth' (John 17.17).

There is no error in truth.

Do you agree that anything with any error
so slight as it may be is not truth?

Can we agree upon it?

[faroukfarouk]

There is no error in truth.

Do you agree that anything with any error
so slight as it may be is not truth?

Can we agree upon it?

I don't know where you are going with your statement. You are going somewhere - I'm not sure where - but to expect me to agree with you before I know where you are going is not realistic, I don't think.

[pkTy]

I don't know where you are going with your statement. You are going somewhere - I'm not sure where - but to expect me to agree with you before I know where you are going is not realistic, I don't think.

I am trying to establish a point of truth with you.
So as to proceed with you and see at what point we split.

I do not believe there are any errors in the truth.
Therefore nothing spoken or printed is excluded with no exceptions at all.

Do you believe it too?

[faroukfarouk]

I am trying to establish a point of truth with you.
So as to proceed with you and see at what point we split.

I do not believe there are any errors in the truth.
Therefore nothing spoken or printed is excluded with no exceptions at all.

Do you believe it too?

If you mean that all Bible translations are identical with each other and identical with the original, then the answer is no. If you mean that God has wonderfully preserved His Word, then  the answer is yes. :)

[pkTy]

If you mean that all Bible translations are identical with each other and identical with the original, then the answer is no. If you mean that God has wonderfully preserved His Word, then  the answer is yes. :)

Alright I will try again with a different approach.


Which came first...the spoken word or the written word.

A. Spoken word

B. Written word.

Pick correct answer.(one of them is correct)

[pkTy]

The Wise Man : How can I know where the devil is hiding at all times?

The Spirit of God: Get rid of all the details.

[pkTy]

I don't agree, because Biblically there is One God, Three Divine Persons.

The Lord God the Father of Jesus Christ is my God.
Jesus the Christ the Son of the Lord God is my God.
The Seven Spirits of God is my God.

They are all my God.

[faroukfarouk]

I'm a busy person. I don't have time to go on endless rants on a forum to again discover that you're going to keep resisting the truth regarding this matter. I have communicated with you before, and it has always been the same case with you. I have spent much time stating my position both from a manuscript and theological perspective, all backed by scripture, and have posted it here,

http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2017/02/07/the-deception-of-the-teaching-of-the-trinity/

So take it, or leave it. If you take it, then great, then we can progress into further matters. If not, I bid you farewell.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit feature prominently in John's First Epistle, John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 - 17, end of Matthew 28, etc.

[cgaviria]

I am always amazed when people take this, "Im not here to be your friend. I'm above you, but I'll teach you peasants from up here." Kindness out. A humble heart? Fahgedaboutit.
Its utterly foolish to think that is an effective way to approach people at all.  Course, it works BEAUTIFULLY if you really don't care to convert anyone and only condemn them.

In this story, you are not Jesus and the board are not the Pharisees. Sorry.  That probably really chaps your hide, but its truth.

False doctrine that does what?  Condemns people to hell?

I am here telling you the truth that the teaching of the trinity is a lie. Rather than get upset in how I delivered this message, believe the message, because of the evidences provided in the study. I am not speaking sternly because of my pride as you accuse me of having, I am speaking sternly because of the deception I see you believers in, which will indeed prevent you from achieving the life you think you will achieve, because the deception of the trinity is rooted in deep lies that will prevent you from truly coming into the understanding of God, which will in turn, prevent you from achieving aeonial life, because of the lie. Please, open your eyes. There is a reason why the trinitarian verses were forged unto the scriptures, which we can clearly see with manuscript evidences today, in that the trinitarian verses did not exist in the earlier manuscripts, because it is a lie.

[Charles Martel]

bye

[RB]

I read several replies on this thread and didn't find any that listed the main tenets of the Trinity.  I read the Nicene Creed and didn't see the Trinity mentioned in it.  I don't understand why so much emphasis is place on the trinity.

How far did you go back into this thread? One actually needed to start at the beginning and stop where the debate was basically over~ the last page or so of this thread where nothing was truly discussed and explained but just some personal attacks of a war of words going after each person's character.   

Why do you not give your understanding of the main tenets of the Godhead and let them be tested?

[Charles Martel]

bye

[LastCall]

The teaching of the trinity is a lie, hence why its mention in this verse of scripture,

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7 [KJV])

Only exists in a few manuscripts, all dated much later in time, and because of this is why most English translations of this verse do not render it with this trinitarian forgery. The only other reference of the trinity in scripture is this verse,

Do your homework then, because 1 John 5:7 was originally part of scripture before it was removed, probably by believers that have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of there being 3 Witnesses within the One God.

Quoted from this link below to give you cause to actually go over to that link and read some more.

https://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/1_john_57_and_the_record_in_heaven.html

"Early manuscript evidence that exists for I John 5:7,8

Early church writers that used it:

Cyprian 200 - 258 AD. "The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one;' and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one'." If Cyprian quotes I John 5:7 from his Bible in 200• 258 AD, it must be a valid reading. His Bible was copied from an older manuscript containing this verse.
Cyprian lived only 100 years after John wrote the book of I John. Cyprian would have had access to the original manuscript to check.
• Priscillian 350 AD, a Spanish bishop quotes I John 5:7,8.
• Idacius Clarus 360 AD, who opposed Priscillian quotes it.
• Varimadum 380 AD.
• Cassiodorus 485 AD.
• Cassian 435 AD.
• Victor Vita 489 AD.
• Jerome 450 AD.
• Fulgentius 533 AD.
• Ps. Vigilius 484 AD.
• Ansbert 660 AD.

Early bible versions that include it:

Old Syriac 170 AD.
Old Latin 200 AD, in North Africa and Italy.
Italic 4th and 5th century. – Italic • Monacensis 7th century.
Italic • Speculum 9th century.
Latin Vulgate 4th, 5th century.
Greek miniscule manuscripts that include it:
• 221 in the 10th century.(variant).
• 88 in the 12th century.(margin).
• 629 in the 14th century.(Ottobanianus)
• 429 in the 14th century (margin).
• 636 in the 15th century. (margin).
• 61 in the 16th century.(Codex Montfortianus)
• 918 in the 16th century. (an Escorial ms).
• 2318 (a Bucharest manuscript).

Early writings:

Liber Apologeticus 350 AD. Council of Carthage 415 AD."

So 1 John 5:7 belongs in scripture, brother.

And just because the Father's will be done and not the Son's, that does not mean we can deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

Read John 5:22...

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

We know that God judges, right?  So do we apply John 5:22 that says the Father judges no one and therefore we conclude that we can deny the deity of the Father?  Of course not, because there are scripture testifying to the deity of the Father.  The same is to be for the Son when there are verses plainly testifying to the deity of Christ as God because that is why He was crucified.

So you have to align your beliefs up with the whole of scripture in order for you to know if you are applying those selected scripture rightly, and brother, you are not doing that, but only He can help you see that truth in His words for why you must reprove your erroneous beliefs for what they are because God is the Saviour and yet Jesus is the Saviour; and therefore Jesus is God.

[LastCall]

I believe in the Triune God as there are 3 Witnesses within the One God BUT scripture specifically states how we are to approach God the Father by and that is by the only way of the Son in worship;  John 14:6  as there is a judgment on every believer in this regard as stated in John 5:22 and that judgment is by how believers honor the Father by honoring the Son BECAUSE by not honoring the Son, they are no longer honoring the Father per John 5:23.

I had addressed several lines in the Nicene creed about scriptural references to those 2 lines in this thread's inquiry at the link below as they were found wanting.

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/bible-verses/a-question-about-a-bible-reference-for-a-line-in-nicene-creed/msg1055125144/#new

But no believer should deny the deity of Christ or else they will die in their sins. 

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

One can ask the Lord Jesus Christ for wisdom ( who do we pray to except God? ) to help you understand the Triune God, but although the Trinity doctrine can only be true when applied to the existence of the Triune God but not for the practice of worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, because we cannot honor the father by honoring the Holy Spirit or the Trinity as a whole when His word specifically states that the Father is only honored by only honoring the Son.

So I believe in the Triune God and the Holy Spirit is God as the Son is God, but scripture narrows the way for how God the Father wants us to come to Him by in worship, fellowship, and prayer and that is by the only way of the Son.  That is Who scripture & the Holy Ghost in us is still pointing believers to go to in coming to God the Father by as we can only live this reconciled relationship with God the father thru Jesus Christ Whom is God our Saviour.

[Ginger Rella]

Do your homework then, because 1 John 5:7 was originally part of scripture before it was removed, probably by believers that have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of there being 3 Witnesses within the One God.

Quoted from this link below to give you cause to actually go over to that link and read some more.

https://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/1_john_57_and_the_record_in_heaven.html

"Early manuscript evidence that exists for I John 5:7,8

Early church writers that used it:

Cyprian 200 - 258 AD. "The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one;' and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one'." If Cyprian quotes I John 5:7 from his Bible in 200• 258 AD, it must be a valid reading. His Bible was copied from an older manuscript containing this verse.
Cyprian lived only 100 years after John wrote the book of I John. Cyprian would have had access to the original manuscript to check.
• Priscillian 350 AD, a Spanish bishop quotes I John 5:7,8.
• Idacius Clarus 360 AD, who opposed Priscillian quotes it.
• Varimadum 380 AD.
• Cassiodorus 485 AD.
• Cassian 435 AD.
• Victor Vita 489 AD.
• Jerome 450 AD.
• Fulgentius 533 AD.
• Ps. Vigilius 484 AD.
• Ansbert 660 AD.

Early bible versions that include it:

Old Syriac 170 AD.
Old Latin 200 AD, in North Africa and Italy.
Italic 4th and 5th century. – Italic • Monacensis 7th century.
Italic • Speculum 9th century.
Latin Vulgate 4th, 5th century.
Greek miniscule manuscripts that include it:
• 221 in the 10th century.(variant).
• 88 in the 12th century.(margin).
• 629 in the 14th century.(Ottobanianus)
• 429 in the 14th century (margin).
• 636 in the 15th century. (margin).
• 61 in the 16th century.(Codex Montfortianus)
• 918 in the 16th century. (an Escorial ms).
• 2318 (a Bucharest manuscript).

Early writings:

Liber Apologeticus 350 AD. Council of Carthage 415 AD."

So 1 John 5:7 belongs in scripture, brother.

And just because the Father's will be done and not the Son's, that does not mean we can deny the deity of Jesus Christ.

Read John 5:22...

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

We know that God judges, right?  So do we apply John 5:22 that says the Father judges no one and therefore we conclude that we can deny the deity of the Father?  Of course not, because there are scripture testifying to the deity of the Father.  The same is to be for the Son when there are verses plainly testifying to the deity of Christ as God because that is why He was crucified.

So you have to align your beliefs up with the whole of scripture in order for you to know if you are applying those selected scripture rightly, and brother, you are not doing that, but only He can help you see that truth in His words for why you must reprove your erroneous beliefs for what they are because God is the Saviour and yet Jesus is the Saviour; and therefore Jesus is God.

From The Holy Aramaic Scriptures.com  https://theholyaramaicscriptures.weebly.com/1-joh-5.html

1 John 5: 7-8

ܘܪܘܚܐ ܡܣܗܕܐ ܕܗܝ ܪܘܚܐ ܐܝܬܝܗ ܫܪܪܐ
7 And The Rukha {The Spirit} testifies; because that One, The Rukha {The Spirit}, is The Truth.

ܘܐܝܬܝܗܘܢ ܬܠܬܐ ܣܗܕܝܢ ܪܘܚܐ ܘܡܝܐ ܘܕܡܐ ܘܬܠܬܝܗܘܢ ܒܚܕ ܐܢܘܢ
8 And there are three testifying: The Rukha {The Spirit}, and The Water, and The Blood. And these three are in One.

[Charles Martel]

bye

[Ginger Rella]

I John 5:7 is simply and clearly speaking about testifying that Jesus is the son of God.  There's NOTHING about a co-equal trinity in the text.  The entire theme of chapter 5 is "JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD" and nothing else.  Maybe you guys should re-familiarize yourself with the trinity doctrine.  AND, I would prefer that you give me your opinion rather than long pages and lnks from others.  Do your own homework.

But here you are posting long articles and links and then telling us to do our homework...

LastCall said,

"Do your homework then, because 1 John 5:7 was originally part of scripture before it was removed, probably by believers that have a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept of there being 3 Witnesses within the One God."
____________________________________________________________________
In 1 John 5:7 The Father, the Word, and the Spirit testifying Jesus is the Son of God does not imply a Trinity.  Neither does being of one mind and neither does the three bearing a unified witness in heaven, in any way even infer a trinity!  Just because they are mentioned at the same time is meaningless to the tenets of the trinity doctrine.

Maybe you guys should re-familiarize yourself with the doctrine before posting.

Add this one into your memory bank.......


The Greek English Interlinear  https://www.logosapostolic.org/interlinear-nt/1-john/05.htm

There is a posting problem for me on this one. It reads, if you check the link horizontally but I can only post vertically, so I have made the English words red to more easily read that the Greeks also talk of the Trinity... or three in one as well as the
Aramaic

7.
ὅτι
For


τρεῖς
three


εἰσιν
are

οἱ
the ones


μαρτυροῦντες
bearing witness


ἐν
in


τῷ
the


οὐρανῷ
heaven,


ὁ
the


πατὴρ
Father,


ὁ
the


λόγος
word,


καὶ
and


τὸ
the


ἅγιον
Holy


πνεῦμα
Spirit,


καὶ
and


οὗτοι
these [/u]


οἱ
the [/u]


τρεῖς
three [/u]


ἕν
one [/u]


εἰσιν
are.[/u]

8.
καὶ
And


τρεῖς
three


εἰσιν
are


οἱ
the ones


μαρτυροῦντες
bearing witness


ἐν
on


τῇ
the


γῇ
earth,


τὸ
the


πνεῦμα
Spirit,


καὶ
and


τὸ
the


ὕδωρ
water,


καὶ
and


τὸ
the


αἷμα
blood,


καὶ
and


οἱ
the


τρεῖς
three


εἰς
in


τὸ
the [/u]


ἕν
one [/u]


εἰσιν
are.[/u]

Aramaic and Greek inspired, by God, confirmation... long before translators cherry picked what they would and would not include in their translations and in their bibles.

Just because YOU cannot wrap your head around a three in one concept, does not make it not so. I gave a 1st grade primer example of such that anyone can understand in the thread I started earlier today in General Discussion to keep me from this specific forum but somehow I seem to find myself back here.

You do realize that the human being also is a triune being, don't you. Well... not going there now.... you would not be able to understand.

You are simply wrong on this.

But guess what. I do not care.

[Charles Martel]

bye

[Charles Martel]

bye

[Charles Martel]

bye