The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity

[4WD]

It is not surprising that the concept of the trinity is confusing and difficult to understand.  The simple truth is that no one really understands the spirit, whether it is the spirit of man or the spirit of Deity.  We have no experiential basis to really understand anything spiritual.  Trying to argue definitively on the subject is all rather useless.  What we know from God's word is that there is God the Father, there is Jesus the Son and there is the Holy Spirit.  Except in the case of Jesus the Son in His earthly form of a man, we really have no basis to understand any of it.  We do our best to make sense of it.  The fact that the Bible does not present detailed information or instruction concerning the connection, the alliance, the relationship of the  Spirit entities labelled the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit suggests that like all other aspects of the spiritual realm the best we have is a figurative representation.  Arguing endlessly about that figurative representation of God is not a very productive thing to do.  We simply have to recognize that there is, according to God's revelation about Himself, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  Even the notion of "being" or "entity" or "person" or "personage" is at best an attempt to put a physical meaning to a spiritual concept, i.e., a figurative explanation.

[LastCall]

From The Holy Aramaic Scriptures.com  https://theholyaramaicscriptures.weebly.com/1-joh-5.html

1 John 5: 7-8

ܘܪܘܚܐ ܡܣܗܕܐ ܕܗܝ ܪܘܚܐ ܐܝܬܝܗ ܫܪܪܐ
7 And The Rukha {The Spirit} testifies; because that One, The Rukha {The Spirit}, is The Truth.

ܘܐܝܬܝܗܘܢ ܬܠܬܐ ܣܗܕܝܢ ܪܘܚܐ ܘܡܝܐ ܘܕܡܐ ܘܬܠܬܝܗܘܢ ܒܚܕ ܐܢܘܢ
8 And there are three testifying: The Rukha {The Spirit}, and The Water, and The Blood. And these three are in One.

Apparently not all has kept 1 John 5:7 as it originally was in scripture. 

Proof that something is amiss is by looking at verse 9 when it testify how God's witness is greater then men's, and yet by His words, God has commanded that there be two or three witnesses to establish a word or to judge as in condemn any one in the O.T.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Evidence that those verses testify to the make up of God testify to Who He is as the Triune God.

The N.T. enforces this;

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

So how can 1 John 5:9 be true by eliminating the original words of 1 John 5:7 as the KJV has it?  The message is disconnected from its conclusion in verse 9.

Wisdom comes from the Lord and there are scripture testifying to the deity of Jesus Christ...

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

And there are scripture testifying to the Person of the Holy Spirit...

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So basically what God demands of men to establish a testimony speaks to the Triune God in establishing a word in creation and what God demands of men to judge any one speaks to the Triune God in judging the world as He did at the tower of Babylon.

So 1 John 5:7 as it originally was, belongs in scripture, otherwise, the message disconnects from the flow of that conclusion of how God's witness is greater then men's.

[Choir Loft]

Unless you know well how to combat false doctrine and you are trained up in the field of apologetics,  I suggest that obedience to the following verse is needed for many:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.  For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.  Romans 16:17-18.

I did not even read cvagaria's post because I understand that its premise is based in false doctrine.  Every cult that has ever been denies the Trintiy in some way, shape or form.  So in reading this thread, I went straight to fish153's response and was edified by it.

It helps to know who are the faithful teachers of God's word on these forums.

I confess that I didn't bother to read all parts of the opening posts in their attack upon the doctrine of the trinity.  Somebody once said you shouldn't begin a statement with an apology.  (I think it was Adolph Hitler, but don't quote me on that.)  Nevertheless I do admit to an incomplete reading because it was a redundant load of bovine excrement.

The Bible is rather specific as to the existence of the Trinity, however it's a difficult concept for most to understand.  Can it be satisfactorily explained in just a few words?  Most cannot do so. Trinity doctrine is difficult because nobody bothers to put the idea into simple terms. Can you define it in six words or less?  How about two words?  The Bible does. 

Christians don't really understand it because its rooted in the Old Covenant.  Anything Old Covenant to them is to be discarded even though it explains all of the New Covenant.   Christians, as well as Jews, don't really want to understand anything so much as to promote their own agenda.   That being said.....

The following is the shema (pronounced sh-MA) prayer.  It's one of the oldest statements of faith in recorded history and is one of the foundations of Judaism.

The Shema (Hebrew version)
Shema Yisrael,
Adonai Eloheinu.
Adonai echad.

The Schema (English version)
Hear O Israel,
The Lord Our God.
The Lord is one.

The prayer is the very definition of a monotheistic religion and can be found in Deuteronomy 6:4 and the gospel of Mark 12:29 where Jesus is quoted as saying it's the most important commandment.   What does this have to do with the Trinity?

I'd like to draw your attention to the last word in the prayer.   

The Hebrew word we need to look at closely is ECHAD, which can be translated into English as "one".  Jewish scholars, who basically reject the idea that Jesus is God and who also deny the existence of the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit - or - spirit holy) have adopted an incorrect interpretation of their own language to obfuscate the nature of the God they worship. As a result they accept some very confusing and irrational interpretations.  But the word ECHAD doesn't really mean ONE in the sense of being an absolute number.

The Hebrew word for absolute one is YACHID. 
Yachid means one in the sense of there being one sun in the sky or one earth beneath our feet.  Yachid means an absolute one.   Why then did the Holy Spirit (Ruach Hakodesh) inspire the prayer with the word ECHAD instead? YACHID is the Hebrew word for solitary one-ness and is NEVER used in scripture references to God. 

The Hebrew word for 'a unified one' is ECHAD. 
For instance, in Genesis 2:24 God says of Adam and Eve that the two shall become ECHAD (one).  This is the same word used in Deuteronomy 6:4 - the shema prayer!  It implies a unified one from separate parts.

* * *

The etymology of the Hebrew word YACHID (solitary or absolute 'one') is derived from ECHAD in the same way the English word "only" is derived from the word "one".
That YACHID is from the same root family of words as ECHAD is seen from the similarity of spelling.  So "YACHID" is to "only", what "ECHAD" is to "one".

In other words, God is ECHAD - a unified one-ness.

Now you can't have a union of anything if there's only one of it.  A union has to have multiple parts.  In reference to a political entity, we may correctly say the United States is ONE in the sense of fifty separate parts being a union.  In reference to the nature of God the multiple parts are Father Son and Holy Spirit - a union of three parts as one.

ADONAI ECHAD.

That's the Trinity in two words.   How simple does it have to get?

Or do we need to go on endlessly arguing about something that scripture is quite definite in stating?   
Proverbs 17:10 says fools will argue endlessly because they refuse to accept truth or correction.

Does God not know what He's talking about when He refers to Himself in scripture as ADONAI ECHAD?   
It seems to me anti-Trinitarians are calling God a liar. 
What person or entity in the Bible calls God a liar?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Ohan]

Quotations from the New Testament are our records ~ records of the Church ~ to tell Christian what the Holy Bible means  or is saying is foolish ~ instead~ the outside ~ should ask what is meant ~ what we called the Old Testament are records of the Hebrew people ~ there is no one today practicing the faith of the Hebrew people ~ except the Christian ~ you might say ~ practicing the fulfillment ```

Jesus is Christ ~ we went to see and follow him ~ we returned and told of his wonder ~ others went to be with Him and learn ~ he foretold of his death and rising ~ his followers came to us and taught us ~ our kings killed them slowly ~ but they would not recant and deny our Lord ```

Park Austoozo ~ Glory to our God ```

[Brotherdavid]

No God is NOT a "voice" and He is definitely NOT a bird !!

[GB]

I confess that I didn't bother to read all parts of the opening posts in their attack upon the doctrine of the trinity.  Somebody once said you shouldn't begin a statement with an apology.  (I think it was Adolph Hitler, but don't quote me on that.)  Nevertheless I do admit to an incomplete reading because it was a redundant load of bovine excrement.

The Bible is rather specific as to the existence of the Trinity, however it's a difficult concept for most to understand.  Can it be satisfactorily explained in just a few words?  Most cannot do so. Trinity doctrine is difficult because nobody bothers to put the idea into simple terms. Can you define it in six words or less?  How about two words?  The Bible does. 

Christians don't really understand it because its rooted in the Old Covenant.  Anything Old Covenant to them is to be discarded even though it explains all of the New Covenant.   Christians, as well as Jews, don't really want to understand anything so much as to promote their own agenda.   That being said.....

The following is the shema (pronounced sh-MA) prayer.  It's one of the oldest statements of faith in recorded history and is one of the foundations of Judaism.

The Shema (Hebrew version)
Shema Yisrael,
Adonai Eloheinu.
Adonai echad.

The Schema (English version)
Hear O Israel,
The Lord Our God.
The Lord is one.

The prayer is the very definition of a monotheistic religion and can be found in Deuteronomy 6:4 and the gospel of Mark 12:29 where Jesus is quoted as saying it's the most important commandment.   What does this have to do with the Trinity?

I'd like to draw your attention to the last word in the prayer.   

The Hebrew word we need to look at closely is ECHAD, which can be translated into English as "one".  Jewish scholars, who basically reject the idea that Jesus is God and who also deny the existence of the Ruach Hakodesh (Holy Spirit - or - spirit holy) have adopted an incorrect interpretation of their own language to obfuscate the nature of the God they worship. As a result they accept some very confusing and irrational interpretations.  But the word ECHAD doesn't really mean ONE in the sense of being an absolute number.

The Hebrew word for absolute one is YACHID. 
Yachid means one in the sense of there being one sun in the sky or one earth beneath our feet.  Yachid means an absolute one.   Why then did the Holy Spirit (Ruach Hakodesh) inspire the prayer with the word ECHAD instead? YACHID is the Hebrew word for solitary one-ness and is NEVER used in scripture references to God. 

The Hebrew word for 'a unified one' is ECHAD. 
For instance, in Genesis 2:24 God says of Adam and Eve that the two shall become ECHAD (one).  This is the same word used in Deuteronomy 6:4 - the shema prayer!  It implies a unified one from separate parts.

* * *

The etymology of the Hebrew word YACHID (solitary or absolute 'one') is derived from ECHAD in the same way the English word "only" is derived from the word "one".
That YACHID is from the same root family of words as ECHAD is seen from the similarity of spelling.  So "YACHID" is to "only", what "ECHAD" is to "one".

In other words, God is ECHAD - a unified one-ness.

Now you can't have a union of anything if there's only one of it.  A union has to have multiple parts.  In reference to a political entity, we may correctly say the United States is ONE in the sense of fifty separate parts being a union.  In reference to the nature of God the multiple parts are Father Son and Holy Spirit - a union of three parts as one.

ADONAI ECHAD.

That's the Trinity in two words.   How simple does it have to get?

Or do we need to go on endlessly arguing about something that scripture is quite definite in stating?   
Proverbs 17:10 says fools will argue endlessly because they refuse to accept truth or correction.

Does God not know what He's talking about when He refers to Himself in scripture as ADONAI ECHAD?   
It seems to me anti-Trinitarians are calling God a liar. 
What person or entity in the Bible calls God a liar?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Interesting take. Valid points as well in my view. I think the issue I have with modern "Trinitarians" is what seems like a position that 3 separate entities exist apart from each other.

That one entity can promote a different teaching, or different point of view than the other. The Hebrew word you referenced means unity. So when Jesus said Him and His Father are One, this would mean nothing divides them. When the scriptures teach of their Spirit, which would be obviously a Holy Spirit, there is nothing that divides them.

For me, when ever these Word's come up in Scriptures, Holy Spirit, Son of God, God, Jesus, Spirit of God, Christ, Lamb of God, Lord of Hosts, I know they are speaking of ONE, complete unity, no divisions in thought, understanding, truth, etc.

So then if we know the God of Abraham, we know Jesus, and we know the Holy Spirit because they are ONE as the scriptures teach.

So when Peter says; "And also the Holy Spirit which God gives to those who obey Him" this includes God, the Son of God, and their Spirit.

Can God truly exist in our minds without His Spirit, or without the Christ? I think not, because they are one.

I love the truth about the Godhead being founded in the Law and Prophets. The implication of many religions that the Law and Prophets have become obsolete, would also imply that the Godhead was changed as well.

Good topic. Great post.

[Ohan]

Greetings ~ Brothers, Sisters ~ I haven't read all the posts to this thread ~ I want just to have a word at the OP ```

We will tell you what is so and what is not of the Mystery of the Trinity ~ we have studied also ~ and we were there ~ walked with the Christ and viewed his doings ~ as to the scriptures. the Christian Bible and the Hebrew writings ~ the Christian Bible is as accurate as we could keep it of the sayings of the men and woman who walked and ate with Christ ~ we have translations, these too are as close as can be ~ We were there, we waked with Christ and the Apostles ~ went home and told our families ~ our cousins went to follow Him ~ we were followers of Christ before you or the Hazars took up or claimed to take up the religion of the Hebrew ( some seven hundred years after the birth of Christ ) the Hebrew who is now spread among Christian peoples ~ no one today practices the religion of the Hebrew ~ he today who claims the title is not/nor related to the Hebrew of the Old Testament ~ and you what ever you claim or spit can not read into our book and dare to tell us what we mean or meant by any passage or word ~ show respect and ask what is meant ~ Or
փակիր դժոխքը ```

Thank you brothers, sisters ~ I hope you and those who love you have had a wonderful Holy Week and a have a Glorious Easter ```



Ohan