Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[4WD]

4) God can do in 1 day what man claims should take a 1000 years

Whether He can is not the question.  The question is whether He did.  God's own creation says He didn't.

[AVZ]

Whether He can is not the question.  The question is whether He did.  God's own creation says He didn't.

Within 48 hours:
Then the LORD God provided a leafy plant and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant.
But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered.

Within 24 hours
The next day Moses entered the tent and saw that Aaron's staff, which represented the tribe of Levi, had not only sprouted but had budded, blossomed and produced almonds.


DO you have issues with the term "day" in either of the above accounts...or is it only in Genesis where you dispute the term "day"?

[4WD]

DO you have issues with the term "day" in either of the above accounts...or is it only in Genesis where you dispute the term "day"?

And how about you?

Gen 2:4  This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

How many hours in that day?  24?  144?  And how many hours in "the day of the Lord"?  24?  0?  Not even measurable in physical earth time?

[AVZ]

And how about you?

Gen 2:4  This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

How many hours in that day?  24?  144?  And how many hours in "the day of the Lord"?  24?  0?  Not even measurable in physical earth time?

Yeah, predictable response. You pretend not to see the difference between Genesis 1 & 2?

[4WD]

Yeah, predictable response. You pretend not to see the difference between Genesis 1 & 2?

Yeah I do see the difference. And in neither case is "day" speaking about a 24-hour day as we measure hours and days.  You like to insist on a literal reading concerning Genesis, the creation, the garden etc.  What is the literal reading of Genesis 3:24?

[AVZ]

Yeah I do see the difference. And in neither case is "day" speaking about a 24-hour day as we measure hours and days.  You like to insist on a literal reading concerning Genesis, the creation, the garden etc.  What is the literal reading of Genesis 3:24?

Don't see a problem. God expelled Adam and Eve and placed an angel to guard access to the garden of Eden.

[4WD]

Don't see a problem. God expelled Adam and Eve and placed an angel to guard access to the garden of Eden.

And where is the garden and that angel now?  Where God put them?

[The Barbarian]

As far as the Grand Canyon is concerned, there is no proof that desert conditions formed the layers.

There are deserts buried in some layers.    How do we know this?   We have cross-bedded dunes hardened into stones, and burrows of desert organisms.    In other layers there are buried forests.   How, in one year, did deserts and forests have time to develop in "flood sediments?'

Burial of fossils always happens in a short time, it cannot be done over a long time.

It's happening about a mile from where I live.   Upright trees flooded by a dam decades ago, are slowly being buried in layers of sediment.   If the area later dries out, we'll have slowly-produced polystrate fossils.

There is no evidence of corrosion between layers,

No, that's wrong, too.   The deserts, for example, have sand-worn stones and cross-bedded dunes from eroded rock.

Radiometric dating is proven unreliable.

Recently, argon/argon testing accurately dated the pyroclastic flow that buried Pompeii.   
Precise dating of the destruction of Pompeii proves argon-argon method can reliably date rocks as young as 2,000 years

http://www.pompeiana.org/News/1997/08_28_97%20-%20Precise%20dating%20of%20the%20destruction%20of%20Pompeii%20proves%20argon-argon%20method%20can%20reliably%20date%20rocks%20as%20young%20as%202,000%20years.htm
So you're wrong about that, too.

[AVZ]

And where is the garden and that angel now?  Where God put them?

How does that matter? Even if anyone knew where it was, you couldn't go there because the angel wouldn't allow you.
Anyway, being part of creation the Garden of Eden was destroyed in the flood.

[4WD]

How does that matter? Even if anyone knew where it was, you couldn't go there because the angel wouldn't allow you.
Anyway, being part of creation the Garden of Eden was destroyed in the flood.

I know you didn't intend it, but that was actually funny.

[KiwiChristian]

And how about you?

Gen 2:4  This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

How many hours in that day?  24?  144?  And how many hours in "the day of the Lord"?  24?  0?  Not even measurable in physical earth time?

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were THE first day.

[The Barbarian]

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were THE first day.

The word translated as "day" can mean "lifetime", "Forever", "always", "in my time", and so one.    Christians saw it as a parable, because it's absurd to talk about evenings and mornings with no Sun to have them.

[The Barbarian]

Don't see a problem. God expelled Adam and Eve and placed an angel to guard access to the garden of Eden.

Actually, it was not an angel, it was angels:

Genesis 3:24 And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.



Apparently, they had to share the sword.

[AVZ]

The word translated as "day" can mean "lifetime", "Forever", "always", "in my time", and so one.    Christians saw it as a parable, because it's absurd to talk about evenings and mornings with no Sun to have them.

Feinted ignorance. There is an explanation for that; God being light. You just consider that explanation absurd because you choose to reject it.
Christians never saw Genesis as a parable, until centuries later some of them caved in to the atheist theory of evolution.

[KiwiChristian]

The word translated as "day" can mean "lifetime", "Forever", "always", "in my time", and so one.    Christians saw it as a parable, because it's absurd to talk about evenings and mornings with no Sun to have them.

But He qualifies what He said. The morning and the evening were THE first day.

God did not tell us to work thousands of years and have a thousand years off.

Context, context, context

[geronimo]

 Time does not exist in God's economy.

[KiwiChristian]

YOUNG EARTH EVIDENCE
Astronomical Records. Because of the rarity of solar eclipses at any given location, and because astronomers can date every solar eclipse going back thousands of years, when an ancient tablet or manuscript mentions a solar eclipse, we can accurately date that record, and other events associated with it in other countries. Before 2250 BC, we have no records of any solar eclipse being seen by man. "The earliest Chinese date which can be assigned with any probability is 2250 BC, based on an astronomical reference in the Book of History". (Ralph Linten, The Tree of Culture (1955), p 520).

Writing. The oldest writing is a Sumerian pictograph written on clay tablets dated about 3500 BC.

Iron Pot in Coal. Professor W. Rusch has reported an iron pot encased in coal dated by evolutionary standards at 300 million years old. (Creation Research Quarterly (March, 1971) p.201). The pictured affidavit reads as follows: Sulphur Springs, Arkansas, November 27, 1948. While I was working in the Municipal Electric Plant in Thomas, Okla. in 1912, I came upon a solid chunk of coal which was too large to use. I broke it with a sledge hammer. This iron pot fell from the center, leaving the impression or mold of the pot in the piece of coal. Jim Stall (an employee of the company) witnessed the breaking of the coal, and saw the pot fall out. I traced the source of the coal, and found that it came from the Wilburton, Oklahoma Mines.  Frank J. Kenwood Sworn to before me, in Sulphur Springs, Arkansas this 27th day of November, 1948.  Julia L (?)

Metal Bowl. An intricately carved metal bowl was blasted out of solid pudding stone. (Scientific American, June 5, 1852).

The Nampa Image is a baked clay figure obtained from a well being bored in 1889 at Nampa, Idaho. It was pumped from rocks 300 feet deep under a "Tertiary" lava sheet (12 million years old.) The problem for evolutionists is how can a man made clay figure 12 million years old (supposedly) have been laid down before man evolved 3 million years ago (supposedly)?  Source: American Geologist, F.Wright, 23 (1899), p.267.

Pollen in Pre-Cambrian Strata. Pollen from Angiosperm and Gymnosperm trees (woody plants supposedly 260 million years old have been found in Pre Cambrian Hakati shale in the Grand Canyon (supposedly 570 million years old). The problem here for evolutionists is conifer pollen existing 300 million years before it appeared on earth. Some spores are stained with red oxide from surrounding rocks, thus proving that the spores are not from present day contamination.  Source: Nature, R. Stainforth, 210 (1966) p.292.

Turkmenia. Notice this report in the Sydney Morning Herald, 21 Nov. 1983, "A report from the Soviet news agency, Tass, says that about 1500 tracks made by dinosaurs have been found in Turkmenia – but among those prints are those resembling the footprints of a man. According to Professor Amanniyazov, director of Turkmenia's Institute of Geology: "If further analysis proves that the prints have been left by anthropoids, the history of mankind will be extended to 150 million, not 5 millionyears."" Why did Professor Amanniyazov assume dinosaur extinction 150 million years ago as absolutely certainty? Why did he not consider the alternative position of dinosaurs living with man recently? The fact that dinosaur and human footprints have been found in the same rock strata proves that man and dinosaurs lived at the same time.
This is a great problem to evolutionists who believe that dinosaurs became extinct 70 million years ago. Evolutionists claim that dinosaurs died out 67 million years before man appeared. These footprints prove that:
a) Man and dinosaur lived at the same time, and b) The evolutionary geological column is completely wrong in its dating of rocks.
The evidence for these tracks being genuine are:
i) The tracks of man and dinosaur are widely distributed from Turkestan to Texas.
ii) The tracks are mostly exposed by bulldozers or erosion.
iii) Two Palaeontologists have pronounced them genuine:
- Dr. Camp of the University of California, and
- Dr. G. Westcott of Ypsilanti, Michigan.
iv) The associated dinosaur tracks are accepted as valid.
v) Some prints have ridges of mud pushed up around them.
vi) Upon sawing through the footprints, the rock particles underneath are more compressed than particles surrounding the prints. Source: "Scientific American", A.G. Ingalls: "The Carboniferous Mystery" 162 (1940), page 14. See R.L. Wysong "The Creation-Evolution Controversy", p.373

Polystrate Trees. Crossing several rock strata are trees preserved as well at their tops as at their bottoms. These fossil trees bridge an evolutionary imagined time span of millions of years, that would preclude their "in place" growth and fossilisation.

Galaxy star clusters (spirals with billions of stars) move so rapidly that they would not stay together if the universe were very old.

Large Stars. Some stars are so large that they radiate energy 10,000 to 1 million times more rapidly than our sun. They could not have contained enough hydrogen to radiate this fast for millions of years, because their initial mass would have been too big. These O and B class stars, and P Cygni stars could not continue atomic fusion longer than 50,000 to 300,000 years.

Abundant Hydrogen in stars. Hydrogen in stars is continually being converted into Helium. Hydrogen cannot be made from other elements. Fred Hoyle states that, if the universe were as old as Big Bang theorists think, then there would be little hydrogen left, as it would be converted to Helium by now. Spectra from stars reveal abundant hydrogen in stars.This implies a young universe.

Solar shrinking. Since 1836, over 100 different observers at the Greenwich Observatory and US Naval Observatory have measured the sun's diameter to shrink at 0.1% per century or 5 feet per hour. At this rate, 50,000 years ago the sun would have been so large as to boil earth's oceans, making life on earth impossible. 100,000 years ago our sun would have been twice as large.

Comets elliptically orbit the sun and are thought to be as old as the sun. As comets orbit the sun, they lose some of their water and gases from the sun's heat, gravity and tail formation. The tail consists of material driven away from its head by solar energy. Some comets regularly seen in the 19th Century have broken up and vanished, or plunged into the sun. All comets should self-destruct in a short ime, less than 10,000 years. There should be no comets left. Evolution cannot explain comets in an old solar system. Comets are young objects created in a young solar system.

Meteoroids bombarding Saturn's rings would have destroyed them in less than 10,000 years. (W T Brown, In the Beginning, p 18).

Jupiter's Moons. If they evolved, they should be physically alike, having the same amount of volcanoes and impact craters, but this is not so. Evolution claims that all planets were molten 5 billion years ago and volcanic activity stopped 4 billion years  ago as they cooled. The moons Ganymede and Callisto have no volcanoes and many impact craters. Europa has no volcanoes and no impact craters. Io has 7 active volcanoes and no impact craters. Titan has volcanoes.

Jupiter, Uranus and Neptune (4) have rings, which could not survive 4 billion years. Jupiter's intense magnetic field radiation would sweep out its rings. (Bradford Smith, a Voyager Scientist).

Venus' high temperature and little erosion, imply a young age for Venus. If Venus was 4 billion years old, its dense atmosphere should have worn away its craters.

Mars has little erosion and some water. Mars has many sharp edged craters and volcanoes, as well as month-long dust storms. Several thousand years of this weather would have seriously eroded these edges and its strong colour differences. Powerful solar UV radiation would have long ago broken down the small amount of water, releasing the oxygen into the atmosphere and hydrogen into space. Evolution predicts no surface water and much atmospheric oxygen, but measurements show the opposite being some surface water and very little atmospheric oxygen.


Lunar Recession. Due to tidal friction, the moon is moving away from earth at about 4 cm per year (1 ½ inches). At this rate, 5 billion years ago the moon would have been 200,000km. closer.

Meteorite Craters only occur on the earth's surface, never being found in the rock strata. If earth were 5 billion years old, we would find many meteorite craters in the sedimentary rock strata, but we don't. Thus all meteorites which have struck the earth, have hit it in the last 5000 years.

Oil Well Pressure. When oil drillers first penetrate oil wells, oil gushes out because the oil and gas are under great pressure from surrounding rocks. Sedimentary rocks surrounding the oil wells are porous. Studies of these show that the oil would seep out before 100,000 years, but this has not happened. This great oil pressure argues strongly against millions of years age for oil wells, and implies an age for oil of around 10,000 years. Oil, coal and gas were formed during the Great Flood 4,400 years ago (in 2418BC).


Earth's Molten Interior. Deep within the earth, the rocks are molten. The earth is slowly cooling from the surface inwards according to Stefan's Law of Radiation. Lord Kelvin in 1889 calculated that the earth could not be billions of years old because of earth's known rate of cooling, the existing temperature gradient in the earth, and the assumption that the earth could not have been hotter than "white hot" initially."Popular Lectures and Addresses"(London: MacMillan, 1889, p.415).  If earth were billions of years old, it would have cooled far more than it now has, even if we assume a radioactively generated heating mechanism. (W T Brown, In the Beginning, p 17).

Radiohaloes are colour rings around microscopic radioactive minerals in rock crystals. "Squashed" Polonium-210 radiohaloes indicate that Jurassic, Triassic and Eocene formations in the Colorado Plateau were deposited within months of one another, not from 225-255 million years apart, as evolution claims. "Orphan" Polonium-218 radiohaloes, having no evidence of their mother elements,imply either instant creation, or drastic changes in radioactive decay rates

Ocean sediment. There is not enough sediment on the sea floors for earth to be 5 billion years old. Rivers add about 28 billion tons of sediment to the oceans each year.  If this had occurred for 1 billion years, the continents would have eroded away many times. There would be a layer of sediment on the ocean floor at least 60 miles thick. However, the average depth of sediment on the ocean floor is about 800 metres, and the continents have not eroded once yet. The Tasman Sea off Australia is not part of a subduction zone of ocean floor being pushed deep into the earth. Subduction zones could not dispose of 10% of incoming sediment. Hence, sea floors seem young.

Tree Rings. The oldest living things are Bristlecone pines growing in Eastern Nevada, aged about 4,600 years old (sometimes producing 2 growth rings per year, so their age would be less), and Sequoia Gigantea in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, which are never older than about 4,000 years. These giant redwoods have no known enemies, and never have any dead trees among them. Unless man cuts them down, they never seem to die. 17 Bristlecone pines are dated about 4,000 years old. Since the Flood occurred about 2,418 BC, this implies that:
a) all the pre-Flood Sequoias and Bristlecones were wiped out by the Flood, and b) there is no record of any living tree older than the Flood.

Man's Recorded History.If man has lived on earth for 1 million years, why do we only find human records going back to about 3500 BC? This cuneiform tablet is the oldest human writing from Sumeria. When human records first appear, they show man to be highly developed with a sophisticated civilisation. This agrees better with a creation date of 4074 BC than with evolution's 1 million year history of man. Why did man do nothing for 1 million years? Because he has only been here for 6,000 years. 

[4WD]

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were THE first day.

Actually it doesn't say THE first day.  Verse 5 uses the cardinal number: God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.   Only subsequently are the ordinals second, third, fourth, etc., used.  Some biblical scholars attach a significance to that, but I won't bother.

[The Barbarian]

[quote[Feinted ignorance. There is an explanation for that; God being light.[/quote]

That won't work.    "Morning" doesn't mean "big light appears in the sky."    It means "When the sun comes up."    Evening doesn't mean "light goes away."    It means "when the sun goes down."

[The Barbarian]

Ah, the Gish Gallop.    "Toss out as many fake ideas as possible, and maybe they won't have time to debunk all of them.    So we'll start at the top...

YOUNG EARTH EVIDENCE
Astronomical Records. Because of the rarity of solar eclipses at any given location, and because astronomers can date every solar eclipse going back thousands of years, when an ancient tablet or manuscript mentions a solar eclipse, we can accurately date that record, and other events associated with it in other countries. Before 2250 BC, we have no records of any solar eclipse being seen by man. "The earliest Chinese date which can be assigned with any probability is 2250 BC, based on an astronomical reference in the Book of History". (Ralph Linten, The Tree of Culture (1955), p 520).

So you're saying that before we had written records, we have no written records of eclipses?   If you thought about it for a bit, you could probably figure out why.

Writing. The oldest writing is a Sumerian pictograph written on clay tablets dated about 3500 BC.

So writing was invented a few thousand year ago, and therefore...?    What?

Iron Pot in Coal. Professor W. Rusch has reported an iron pot encased in coal dated by evolutionary standards at 300 million years old. (Creation Research Quarterly (March, 1971) p.201). The pictured affidavit reads as follows: Sulphur Springs, Arkansas, November 27, 1948. While I was working in the Municipal Electric Plant in Thomas, Okla. in 1912, I came upon a solid chunk of coal which was too large to use. I broke it with a sledge hammer. This iron pot fell from the center, leaving the impression or mold of the pot in the piece of coal. Jim Stall (an employee of the company) witnessed the breaking of the coal, and saw the pot fall out. I traced the source of the coal, and found that it came from the Wilburton, Oklahoma Mines.  Frank J. Kenwood Sworn to before me, in Sulphur Springs, Arkansas this 27th day of November, 1948.  Julia L (?)

No confirmation?   But suppose coal could somehow form in a few hundred years.    Wouldn't change anything in evolution.   BTW, we have found objects and human bodies in peat thousands of years old, so we know that at least some coal takes a very, very long time to form.

Metal Bowl. An intricately carved metal bowl was blasted out of solid pudding stone. (Scientific American, June 5, 1852).

Can't find any records of it.    There have been a lot of hoaxes, but none with any demonstration that the article was really found in situ.

Pollen in Pre-Cambrian Strata. Pollen from Angiosperm and Gymnosperm trees (woody plants supposedly 260 million years old have been found in Pre Cambrian Hakati shale in the Grand Canyon (supposedly 570 million years old). The problem here for evolutionists is conifer pollen existing 300 million years before it appeared on earth. Some spores are stained with red oxide from surrounding rocks, thus proving that the spores are not from present day contamination.  Source: Nature, R. Stainforth, 210 (1966) p.292.

Interesting thing is, it was loose aggregation, and was the same pollen as could be found in much younger strata a few yards higher on the cliff.   Not long ago, a YE creationist from an Adventist university went to check out the story:

A total of fifty samples from the same strata which Burdick had studied were processed. All slides were completely scanned. No single example of an authentic pollen grain was obtained from any of these samples. In fact, the slides produced from the Hakatai Formation were in most cases completely free from any material of biologic origin, modern or fossil.
http://origins.swau.edu/papers/dinos/pollen/eng/index.html

Mind you, that's a YE creationist talking.

Turkmenia. Notice this report in the Sydney Morning Herald, 21 Nov. 1983, "A report from the Soviet news agency, Tass, says that about 1500 tracks made by dinosaurs have been found in Turkmenia – but among those prints are those resembling the footprints of a man. According to Professor Amanniyazov, director of Turkmenia's Institute of Geology: "If further analysis proves that the prints have been left by anthropoids, the history of mankind will be extended to 150 million, not 5 millionyears.""

That one has been tried here in the United States.    The "Paluxy Man Tracks" story depends on the way erosion can make dinosaur tracks look human:

Confronted with these findings, a leader of the scientific creationists conceded that the tracks could no longer be ''regarded as unquestionably human.'' A movie incorporating the disputed tracks, ''Footprints in Stone,'' produced by the Films for Christ Association, has been withdrawn from circulation as a document in support of divine creation. 5-Year Investigation What specialists in dinosaur studies have reported finding are clear traces of dinosaur toes associated with the so-called ''man tracks'' along the Paluxy River near Glen Rose, Tex., southwest of Fort Worth. The discovery was described by scientists who visited the site early this month and reviewed the results of a five-year investigation of the tracks by Glen J. Kuban, an expert on dinosaur footprints.
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/06/17/science/fossils-of-man-tracks-shown-to-be-dinosaurian.html

Polystrate Trees. Crossing several rock strata are trees preserved as well at their tops as at their bottoms. These fossil trees bridge an evolutionary imagined time span of millions of years, that would preclude their "in place" growth and fossilisation.

You've been misled about that.   There are some of them forming about a mile from my house.   No palentologist says that it took millions of years to form.   The trees near my home have been about 1/4 buried in less than 40 years.

Galaxy star clusters (spirals with billions of stars) move so rapidly that they would not stay together if the universe were very old.

Star clusters are very small compared to galaxies.   And they do indeed "evaporate" over time, as individual stars gain enough kinetic energy to escape them.   Doesn't happen much in galaxies, though.   The massive gravitation of billions of stars make it very difficult for a star to reach escape velocity.

Large Stars. Some stars are so large that they radiate energy 10,000 to 1 million times more rapidly than our sun. They could not have contained enough hydrogen to radiate this fast for millions of years, because their initial mass would have been too big.

Supergiants do indeed form and explode in a very short time, relative to the Sun.    But they do last for millions of years, not billions.    We still see them forming, and now and then we see one explode.

Abundant Hydrogen in stars. Hydrogen in stars is continually being converted into Helium. Hydrogen cannot be made from other elements. Fred Hoyle states that, if the universe were as old as Big Bang theorists think, then there would be little hydrogen left, as it would be converted to Helium by now.

In the universe, the great mass of hydrogen is not in stars, but in clouds of gas.    There are still stars being made as these clouds collapse.    Our sun is burning up hydrogen at a rate that will deplete it in about 4.5 billion years. 

Solar shrinking. Since 1836, over 100 different observers at the Greenwich Observatory and US Naval Observatory have measured the sun's diameter to shrink at 0.1% per century or 5 feet per hour. At this rate, 50,000 years ago the sun would have been so large as to boil earth's oceans, making life on earth impossible. 100,000 years ago our sun would have been twice as large.

In 1987, several astronomers from Paris Observatory made an announcement regarding the size of the Sun that astonished their colleagues (Kippenhahn, R., 1994, pg. 163). They claimed that solar eclipse data from 1666 to 1719 showed that the Sun was 2000 kilometers larger than it is today. This amounts to a 0.3 percent reduction; and the time period, which roughly corresponds to the Maunder Minimum, seemed to be more than coincidental. However, this data was found to contain an error regarding the 1715 solar eclipse path of totality. Consequently, the Sun was the same size in 1716 as it is today, and astronomers were reassured.
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/FAQ/Qshrink.html

Comets elliptically orbit the sun and are thought to be as old as the sun. As comets orbit the sun, they lose some of their water and gases from the sun's heat, gravity and tail formation. The tail consists of material driven away from its head by solar energy. Some comets regularly seen in the 19th Century have broken up and vanished, or plunged into the sun. All comets should self-destruct in a short ime, less than 10,000 years. There should be no comets left. Evolution cannot explain comets in an old solar system. Comets are young objects created in a young solar system.

You've been misled here, too.   We have now observed that there are a huge number of potential comets orbiting the Sun out beyond Pluto.   Every now and then, one of them is disturbed, and falls toward the sun in a highly elliptical orbit.    So new ones are constantly being produced as old ones eventually evaporate or hit the sun.

Meteoroids bombarding Saturn's rings would have destroyed them in less than 10,000 years. (W T Brown, In the Beginning, p 18).

The rings are largely empty space, and it would be a lucky meteor indeed that happened to hit a rock in one of the rings.    But Saturn does capture many meteoroids and incorporate them into the rings.

Jupiter's Moons. If they evolved, they should be physically alike,

Moons don't evolve.   But they can form in a number of different ways, and their mass, distance from a planet, and type of formation will make a big difference in their characteristics.

Moons that are not big enough to have tectonic movement (or to have a huge planet gravitationally squeezing them) will not have volcanoes.

d little erosion, imply a young age for Venus.

Venus is eroded.   

If Venus was 4 billion years old, its dense atmosphere should have worn away its craters.

Venus has tectonic activity, so your assumption is wrong.

Mars has little erosion and some water. Mars has many sharp edged craters and volcanoes

Probes have shown only worn structures, except for a few meteorite craters that are relatively recent.

Evolution predicts no surface water and much atmospheric oxygen

It predicts no such thing.   If you doubt this, show us where Darwin's theory predicted this.   Science would predict that in the lack of photosynthesis, there would be little free oxygen.   Do you see why?

Lunar Recession. Due to tidal friction, the moon is moving away from earth at about 4 cm per year (1 ½ inches). At this rate, 5 billion years ago the moon would have been 200,000km. closer.

The Roche Limit (closest a moon can be to a planet without being torn apart by gravity) is about 18,400 km.    The moon is about 384,000 km away so the moon could have receded no more than 365600 km, or 36,560,000,000 centimeters.    At less than 4 cm a year, that would take about 9.1 billion years.   So no problem for an ancient Earth there.

Meteorite Craters only occur on the earth's surface, never being found in the rock strata.

No, that's false:

The geologic record contains at least 130 positively identified "fossil" craters. They are preserved in all the major strata from the Precambrian (2 billion years ago) to Recent times. The following partial list, Chicxulub excepted, is from R. A. F. Grieve and P. B. Robertson (1979). Since then many more fossil craters have been found, but a portion of their 1979 list will do just fine. With one exception, all of those listed are larger than Meteor Crater in Arizona.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/dave_matson/young-earth/specific_arguments/meteor.html

As you see, these objections wither in the light of evidence.    More tomorrow.

[4WD]

Hey, Barbarian,  I have to say, I do admire your patience.

[The Barbarian]

Hey, Barbarian,  I have to say, I do admire your patience.

I was a teacher.   I learned patience the hard way.

[AVZ]

[quote[Feinted ignorance. There is an explanation for that; God being light.

That won't work.    "Morning" doesn't mean "big light appears in the sky."    It means "When the sun comes up."    Evening doesn't mean "light goes away."    It means "when the sun goes down."

That statement is not defendable. How about parts of the globe where during specific seasons the sun does not come up? Are you saying there is no morning?
We connect morning, afternoon and night to specific events, but if we were to take those events away we still divide days into their respective parts.

Genesis doesn't make that claim. God made light, and He called the light day...and the dark He called night.
God created the sun at a later stage, and that's not to say that the light in the first days had to come from the sun. Besides the sun has more functions than just light.

The mere question that needs to be answered is: Can God create something that has no source?
If you insist that light could only exist if it had a source; the sun...then how could God create a complete universe from nothing? Where did the source material come from?
How about God Himself? He has no source either.

Why is is so difficult for you to accept the existence of God without a source, a universe without a source...and yet reject the existence of light without a source?

[KiwiChristian]

Whether He can is not the question.  The question is whether He did.  God's own creation says He didn't.

if they were NOT 24 hours, YOU tell US how long it was.

also, how long did the plants survive without light? 24 hours they can cope with. thousands of years? nope.

[4WD]

if they were NOT 24 hours, YOU tell US how long it was.

also, how long did the plants survive without light? 24 hours they can cope with. thousands of years? nope.

First of all, it is not just light for illumination, but the also important aspect of heat and warmth.  Without the sun, the earth would be pretty chilly, chilly enough to freeze the water, at least at the surface, and everything else in seconds.

I can give you a good estimate, based upon relativity, of how long each day was.  But I suspect you would neither understand nor be convinced.

But if you really are interested, go here:

http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html?s=rab

The thesis of this article is that both billions of years and six 24-hour days, when day is viewed from God's perspective at the beginning, are correct.  It deals with the effects of the space-time considerations of the expansion of the universe.

[The Barbarian]

That statement is not defendable. How about parts of the globe where during specific seasons the sun does not come up?

I can't believe you're serious.    If clouds diffuse the sunlight, you think people don't call it morning?   Seriously?

Are you saying there is no morning?

That's what you seem to be saying.

We connect morning, afternoon and night to specific events,

Specifically, morning is at sunrise, evening is at sunset.   That's how it's done.

God created the sun at a later stage

Which is why Christians realized that Genesis 1 and 2 were not literal histories.


and that's not to say that the light in the first days had to come from the sun. Besides the sun has more functions than just light.

The mere question that needs to be answered is: Can God create something that has no source?

No, the question is: "Does it make sense to have mornngs and evenings with no sun?    As Christians have said, no, it doesn't.

(Straw man alert)

Why is is so difficult for you to accept the existence of God without a source, a universe without a source...and yet reject the existence of light without a source?

Your new doctrine, you need to handle it.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: AVZ on Sun Aug 06, 2017 - 21:28:15

4) God can do in 1 day what man claims should take a 1000 years

Whether He can is not the question.  The question is whether He did.  God's own creation says He didn't.

Did God create in a day, a day old man or a man that man would evaluate to be about 30 years old in Adam?

Did God create in a day, a day old earth or an earth that man would evaluate to be millions or billions years old?

[4WD]

Did God create in a day, a day old man or a man that man would evaluate to be about 30 years old in Adam?

Did God create in a day, a day old earth or an earth that man would evaluate to be millions or billions years old?

What is a day, scripturally?  Is a day the period of daylight?  24 hours?  144 hours (Genesis 2:4)?  a really long time?  an era?  How long is the day in Genesis 2:2?

[The Barbarian]

Finishing up the Gish Gallop attempt:

Oil Well Pressure. When oil drillers first penetrate oil wells, oil gushes out because the oil and gas are under great pressure from surrounding rocks. Sedimentary rocks surrounding the oil wells are porous. Studies of these show that the oil would seep out before 100,000 years, but this has not happened.

Actually, it happened almost everywhere, except where thick and completely impermeable formations domed over the gas and oil.    In those rare cases, the oil and gas pooled under great pressure and are still there.   Notice that the ground above such formations does not have oil and gas seeping up, unless there was a crack in the formation.    Where there isn't an impermeable cap, we do see petroleum rising to the surface.    So that won't work, either.

Earth's Molten Interior. Deep within the earth, the rocks are molten. The earth is slowly cooling from the surface inwards according to Stefan's Law of Radiation. Lord Kelvin in 1889 calculated that the earth could not be billions of years old because of earth's known rate of cooling, the existing temperature gradient in the earth, and the assumption that the earth could not have been hotter than "white hot" initially."Popular Lectures and Addresses"(London: MacMillan, 1889, p.415).  If earth were billions of years old, it would have cooled far more than it now has, even if we assume a radioactively generated heating mechanism. (W T Brown, In the Beginning, p 17).

Turns out the amount of radiation is precisely the amount needed for observed heat flux in the Earth.   In fact, when radiation was discovered, Lord Kelvin agreed that his calculations were invalid.    But even if they weren't you wouldn't get any comfort from them.    Kelvin figured that it would have had to be something like 10 million years for a molten Earth to get to this point.

Radiohaloes are colour rings around microscopic radioactive minerals in rock crystals. "Squashed" Polonium-210 radiohaloes indicate that Jurassic, Triassic and Eocene formations in the Colorado Plateau were deposited within months of one another, not from 225-255 million years apart, as evolution claims. "Orphan" Polonium-218 radiohaloes, having no evidence of their mother elements,imply either instant creation, or drastic changes in radioactive decay rates

Turns out, these radiohaloes don't form unless there are deposits of uranium close by.   And that's important, because, it establishes that the polonium was from decay of uranium.

Brawley (1992) and Collins (1997). They note that many concentric ring haloes line up along visible fractures within the host mica. Such fractures are very common in mica crystals. Micro-fractures could provide conduits for the rapid movement and concentration of radon-222, a gaseous daughter product of uranium-238 which forms part way along the decay chain leading to polonium. Radon-222, itself an alpha emitter, has a half life of 3.82 days and is produced continuously in the decay of the parent uranium. Migration of radon along fractures with hold-up points at tiny structural traps would result in exactly the same concentric ring pattern assigned by Gentry to polonium alone (because polonium is a daughter isotope of radon decay). Assigning a halo diameter to radon is difficult as the radon alpha decay energy is very close to that of polonium-210 ; the two ring structures commonly cannot be distinguished
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html

Moreover, Gentry's argument depends on his assumption that the granite is "primordial rock" created in situ.    But the granite is intrusive, from lava that flowed into faults in sedimentary rock, which would have to be older than the granite.    And that also rules out Gentry's assumption.

Ocean sediment. There is not enough sediment on the sea floors for earth to be 5 billion years old. Rivers add about 28 billion tons of sediment to the oceans each year.  If this had occurred for 1 billion years, the continents would have eroded away many times.

Would have, if plate tectonics was not building new continental crust.   But we observe this happening in many places around the world.    Likewise, seafloor is observed to be subducted under the continents, destroying those sediments in the mantle.   And new seafloor is being produced at mid-oceanic ridges.   This is why sediments in the Atlantic ocean are brand new at the mid-Atlantic ridge and many millions of years old at the continental shelves.

Tree Rings. The oldest living things are Bristlecone pines growing in Eastern Nevada, aged about 4,600 years old (sometimes producing 2 growth rings per year, so their age would be less), and Sequoia Gigantea in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, which are never older than about 4,000 years. These giant redwoods have no known enemies, and never have any dead trees among them.

No, that's wrong:
https://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publications/documents/psw_gtr151/psw_gtr151_13_piirto.pdf

And one famous one had weakened to that it had only one living branch left.   It recently fell and died.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/01/09/508919216/iconic-sequoia-tunnel-tree-brought-down-by-california-storm

And why do it with trees?  Why not just find the oldest human and claim that proves a young Earth?

Man's Recorded History.If man has lived on earth for 1 million years, why do we only find human records going back to about 3500 BC?

So you're claiming that the fact that we have no written records prior to the invention of writing, means the Earth is young?   Seriously?

[The Barbarian]

Did God create in a day, a day old man or a man that man would evaluate to be about 30 years old in Adam?

Did God create in a day, a day old earth or an earth that man would evaluate to be millions or billions years old?

God is truth.   The "appearance of age" argument assumes God to be deceptive.   So not credible.

[AVZ]

I can't believe you're serious.    If clouds diffuse the sunlight, you think people don't call it morning?   Seriously?

That's what you seem to be saying.

Specifically, morning is at sunrise, evening is at sunset.   That's how it's done.

Which is why Christians realized that Genesis 1 and 2 were not literal histories.


and that's not to say that the light in the first days had to come from the sun. Besides the sun has more functions than just light.

No, the question is: "Does it make sense to have mornngs and evenings with no sun?    As Christians have said, no, it doesn't.

(Straw man alert)

Your new doctrine, you need to handle it.

You are completely turning my post upside down.
You said "Morning means when the sun comes up" and "Evening means when the sun goes down".
My challenge to you is: in places where the sun does not come up in the morning, are you therefore claiming that there is no morning in those places?
Similarly, there are times in the year in some places where the sun does not go under...hence you claim those people there do not have evenings?

You say that is does not make sense to have mornings and evenings without the sun.
I disagree, mornings, noons, evenings and nights are expressions of a time period.

Let's say a blind person asks you what time it is, would you say "what does it matter to you? It's night".
Of course not. Even a blind person who does not experiences light knows time, and mornings and evenings.

In Genesis the term day and night are related to light and dark.
When the light was on, it was day and when the light was off, it was night. Thats the terminology used.
Mornings and evenings existed before the sun was created.

The whole crux of the matter is, can God have created light without creating a sun (the source). I say yes. Light is made of particles, the same as everything else in the universe is made of.
God does not need a source to display its effect.
We see that in Exodus when God calls Moses. The burning bush that burned but had no source for fire.
We also see that in Acts, where there is the sound of a wind...yet there was no wind to make that sound.

You are simply saying that Genesis is incorrect because ONLY the sun can account for light (or dark).
I am saying that that's not true, God could have easily woven light particles together at the start of creation as He wove the particles together that make up all matter of which the rest of creation exists.

[Michael2012]

God is truth.   The "appearance of age" argument assumes God to be deceptive.   So not credible.

God is truth. I agree.

The rest I'd say I'd respect as your opinion. And we all have different opinions. But what are your answers to the questions:

Did God create in a day, a day old man or a man that man would evaluate to be about 30 years old in Adam?

Did God create in a day, a day old earth or an earth that man would evaluate to be millions or billions years old?

And I'm curious, do you believe that everything there is, except God, was created? Do you believe that there was a point in eternity that there was nothing but God, when no creation was yet?

[The Barbarian]

You are completely turning my post upside down.

Don't see how.   Your argument seems to be that if it's cloudy, the sun doesn't come up.    People have always known better.

My challenge to you is: in places where the sun does not come up in the morning, are you therefore claiming that there is no morning in those places?

So far, the sun has always come up wherever there is morning.   Even if it's obscured by clouds, it comes up.   And people have always known this.

Similarly, there are times in the year in some places where the sun does not go under...

Hebrews were completely unaware of that, but yes, in polar regions, They refer to those as days without an evening.

hence you claim those people there do not have evenings?

So they say.    When I lived a lot farther north, my parents would say in the summer, "be home by evening", and that meant sundown, even if it was 9:00.

You say that is does not make sense to have mornings and evenings without the sun.

Yep.   That's how language works.   

I disagree

Doesn't matter.  Words mean things.   And usage determines meanings.   If you have a private definition, it changes nothing.
 

You are simply saying that Genesis is incorrect

I'm saying Genesis is correct and you are wrong.

Because only the sun can account for mornings and evenings.

I am saying that that's not true

Doesn't matter.   Language is what it is.

[The Barbarian]

Did God create in a day, a day old man or a man that man would evaluate to be about 30 years old in Adam?

God is not deceptive.   So He would not do something that would mislead us.

Did God create in a day, a day old earth or an earth that man would evaluate to be millions or billions years old?

I think Augustine had it right.   God created the universe in an instant, and then used the nature he had created to develop it as He intended.   Notice that He says in Genesis that he uses existing creation to make living things.

And I'm curious, do you believe that everything there is, except God, was created? Do you believe that there was a point in eternity that there was nothing but God, when no creation was yet?

Only God is eternal.    So it's absurd to think of anything else not being created.   

[Michael2012]

Michael said:

Did God create in a day, a day old man or a man that man would evaluate to be about 30 years old in Adam?

God is not deceptive.   So He would not do something that would mislead us.

Nobody is saying that God is deceptive, nor that God would do something that would mislead us. So, perhaps you can just give your honest and direct answer to the question.

Michael said:

Did God create in a day, a day old earth or an earth that man would evaluate to be millions or billions years old?

I think Augustine had it right.   God created the universe in an instant, and then used the nature he had created to develop it as He intended.   Notice that He says in Genesis that he uses existing creation to make living things.

So, can you tell me, according to your knowledge of things, of science, what of nature did God initially created that developed into the Adam that the Bible said God created? Can you tell me what of nature did God initially created that developed into the other creatures that evolved into the animals and birds and fish and trees that the Bible said God created?

Also, if God created the universe in an instant, do you say that everything of the universe then is at the same age?

Michael said:

And I'm curious, do you believe that everything there is, except God, was created? Do you believe that there was a point in eternity that there was nothing but God, when no creation was yet?

Only God is eternal.    So it's absurd to think of anything else not being created.   

I agree. And since that is the truth, then God have created from out of nothing, at least those which you consider what they are in their initial state as they were created. Perhaps, you can tell us, according to your knowledge of things, of science, what God have created instantly and later go through the process of evolution to be created in time what God intended them to be? And what God have created instantly as he intended them to be and need not go through the process of evolution?