Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[Texas Conservative]

I really get a kick out of people making fools of themselves here, the facts are simple and the evidence is all around us. It's like watching a trial where the evidence is stacked immeasurably in favour of the prosecution but the defense still insists innocence. Of course that's their job but it doesn't make it true.


What is it that makes people believe that 10's of thousands of scientists are deluded? What is their agenda if so? Is it a conspiracy theory? I just don't understand why some refuse to open their minds to the truth and stop denying the facts.

Truth and fact are also foolish words to use.  It cannot possibly be verified that the earth is 4.3 Billion years old.  Very likely in the future, say 100 years from now, scientists will have some other number that is based upon more evidence and new scientific breakthroughs that will shatter the current viewpoint. 

[Alan]

Truth and fact are also foolish words to use.  It cannot possibly be verified that the earth is 4.3 Billion years old.  Very likely in the future, say 100 years from now, scientists will have some other number that is based upon more evidence and new scientific breakthroughs that will shatter the current viewpoint.

No argument there, scientific theories are open to new evidence that can alter previously thought evidence, the important thing to keep in mind here is that new evidence is gained by progression, continued observation and testing can certainly garner new results over a given time. That said, new data will never say that the earth is 10,000 years old.

[Michael2012]

What is it that makes people believe that 10's of thousands of scientists are deluded? What is their agenda if so? Is it a conspiracy theory? I just don't understand why some refuse to open their minds to the truth and stop denying the facts.

It makes me think what is the agenda of men spoken of by Paul, in that all of them, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God? Did they conspire or what?

Romans 1:20-21
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

What is it that makes people believe that 10's of thousands of scientists are deluded?

I guess it's just that they all have the same conviction, and convicted by the same spirit, as also those people who believe that 10's of thousands of scientists are not deluded, but are correct in their scientific works, observations, findings, theories, and conclusions, have the same conviction.

[Michael2012]

No argument there, scientific theories are open to new evidence that can alter previously thought evidence, the important thing to keep in mind here is that new evidence is gained by progression, continued observation and testing can certainly garner new results over a given time. That said, new data will never say that the earth is 10,000 years old.

Richard Smith, former editor of the British Medical Journal, said:

"Most scientific studies are wrong, and they are wrong because scientists are interested in funding and careers rather than truth."

So, perhaps you may be right in saying, "new data will never say that the earth is 10,000 years old".

[4WD]

Truth and fact are also foolish words to use.  It cannot possibly be verified that the earth is 4.3 Billion years old.  Very likely in the future, say 100 years from now, scientists will have some other number that is based upon more evidence and new scientific breakthroughs that will shatter the current viewpoint.

It cannot possibly be verified that George Washington actually lived.  But we have considerable data available to us that says he did.  And while we may not be able to verify that the earth is 4.3 billion years old, we have considerable data available to us to support it.

[The Barbarian]

Truth and fact are also foolish words to use.  It cannot possibly be verified that the earth is 4.3 Billion years old.

It can indeed be verified.   And has been by several different methods.

Very likely in the future, say 100 years from now, scientists will have some other number that is based upon more evidence and new scientific breakthroughs that will shatter the current viewpoint.

Likely, it will get more accurate, but given the history of that science, it seems highly improbable the the current viewpoint will be dramatically changed.   It's been measured in billions since Rutherford discovered radioactivity in the early 1900s.   As we found older and older rocks, it ended up a little more than 4.5 billion years for the solar system and about 4.3 for the Earth itself.

[Amo]

https://creation.com/horse-shoe-bend-arizona

Earlier this year, a well-known geologist stood with a group of people at the rim of Horse Shoe Bend, Arizona, (figure 1) and declared that Noah's Flood could not have formed this feature. During an energetic event such as Noah's Flood, he said, the water would flow in a large gush in one direction. According to this professor of geology at a university in California, the winding course of the Colorado River indicates that the river had low energy and would have been flowing just above sea level at that time.

This professor, who has authored well-known books on geology, was absolutely sure that Noah's Flood could not explain the meandering loop. In his view, Noah's global Flood, as described in the Bible, never happened.

However, when we look a bit more carefully at the landscapes in the area, the evidence is very clear. The canyon was indeed carved by Noah's Flood. But to recognize that, you have to think big.

[Amo]

https://creation.com/ariel-roth-interview-flat-gaps

'An outstanding feature of erosion is the highly irregular surface (topography) it creates as streams and rivers keep cutting deeper gullies, canyons, and valleys into the landscape. Even Australia, which tends to be very flat, has a lot of irregular topography in many areas. Erosion tends to produce highly irregular surfaces over most of our continents.'

But what do we find instead?

'The problem these flat gaps especially pose for the long geologic ages is the lack of erosion of the underlayer expected at these gaps. Over the many millions of years postulated for these gaps, you would expect pronounced irregular erosion, and the gaps should not at all be flat.

'In fact, according to average erosion rates, many or all of the layers should be gone. Since they are there and flat, this indicates that the millions of years postulated for these gaps never occurred. These flat gaps are so common (see the pictures at right and below for some examples), that they pretty much challenge the validity of the whole geologic time scale.'

[4WD]

I am really curious.  If Noah's flood was a global event, just where was the water running to when it supposedly eroded the canyon to what it is today?

[KiwiChristian]

I am really curious.  If Noah's flood was a global event, just where was the water running to when it supposedly eroded the canyon to what it is today?

Umm. the oceans?

You are assuming the oceans and continents we have today today were there before the flood.

[KiwiChristian]

I am really curious.  If Noah's flood was a global event, just where was the water running to when it supposedly eroded the canyon to what it is today?

Flood Proofs
Pre-Cambrian void, then abundant, complex Cambrian fossils.

Pre-Cambrian rocks are the pre-Flood basement. Post-Cambrian rocks are the post-Flood fossil rich strata. Earliest Cambrian rocks (supposedly 500 million years old) contain highly complex, diversified animal fossils which suddenly appeared.

Question: How could this complex range of fauna evolve so suddenly and quickly?
This was as unexplainable to Darwin as it is to Evolutionists today.

Answer: Creationists easily explain this as the pre-Flood, post-Flood demarcation. The "2 billion year" geological column used to support the evolution of life, is actually a record of the destruction of life by the worldwide flood.
The geological column is a record of life's departure, not of life's coming. The geological column represents 2 or 3 months deposition not 2 billion years

Fossilisation. The existence of billions of plant and animal fossils preserved in the
earth's crust speaks of a flood catastrophe. The fossil record is not "incomplete" as
evolutionists argue, (incomplete only because it does not contain the links they need to
prove evolution), but is quantitatively huge, with a greater variety of species than are alive
today.

Polystrate Trees. Crossing several rock strata are trees preserved as well at their tops as at their bottoms. These fossil trees bridge an evolutionary imagined time span of millions of years, that would preclude their "in place" growth and fossilisation.

Question: Was this tree standing unweathered for millions of years while strata was slowly deposited all around it?

Answer: No! The sediment and tree were moved into place at the same time. Slow deposition of rock (uniformity)would not allow a tree to be fossilised before it would rot and fall over.



Simple to Complex by Flood Fossil Sorting.

We observe a general sorting of fossils from simple, spherical, dense sea creatures to
less dense, irregular shaped, complex creatures higher up.

a) Evolutionists interpret this to mean that simple creatures lower down evolved to
complex creatures higher up over time.

b) Creationists match these observations with the sorting effect produced by Noah's
Flood, as follows:

i) Initial effects of the Flood would be to trap smaller, simple, spherical, dense
sea creatures like trilobites in sediment.

ii) Then plants and trees, being immobile, would be swept off the earth and
deposited, becoming coal of today.

iii) Amphibians, living close to the water's edge and being relatively slow moving
would be deposited next.

iv) Reptiles and Dinosaurs living further inland and being relatively slow moving
(eg. brontosaurus) would be trapped next.

v) Land mammals and birds being faster-moving and living further inland would be
next deposited (eg. lions).

vi) Finally, man, being more intelligent at fleeing to higher ground would be the last
ones overcome by the Flood, and therefore appear on top of the rock strata. The
final effect would be simple organisms lower in the sediment to complex organisms higher up in the sediment, although contradictions to this order would be expected due to randomness of the flood action. This is precisely what we see as predicted by Noah's Flood.

Consider these fossil examples supporting the worldwide flood:

i) Coal and Oil Reserves even in polar regions can only be explained by thecatastrophic burial of billions of plants and animals. Coal (fossil plants) weredeposited by a water catastrophe, not by slow accumulation in swamps. Fossil trees extend through several layers of coal.

ii) Mammoths by the millions cover about 14% of the earth's surface from Siberia to Alaska, frozen so rapidly that their flesh is edible today.

iii) Fossil Dinosaur Bones.

• in Dinosaur National monument Utah contain over 300 different kinds of dinosaurs.

• in Geissseltal Germany, we find remains of 6000 fossil vertebrates.

iv) Closed Clams. We find millions of fossil closed clams in a 3 foot stratum in Texas. Clams do not live packed together like this. Clam shells will open unless buried before death.

v) Billions of fossilised fish, contorted in agony over 10,000 square miles, with 1000 fish in one square metre are found in England.

vi) Millions of fossil trilobites rolled into  defensive balls, and although marine, are
found 7000 feet high on mountains.

vii) 800 billion fossils of amphibians, reptiles and fish covering 200,000 square miles in the Karoo formation of South Africa.

viii) Rain drops, ripple marks, worm trails, animal tracks, droppings, insect wing detail and feathers are fossilised.

ix) Sharks flattened to 1/4 inch thick with the tail still upright suggest sudden catastrophic burial.

x) Rhinoceroses, camels, pigs, etc. make up 9,000 fossil animals in one hill at Agate Springs, Nebraska.

xi) A 14 foot Portheus fish has swallowed a 6 foot Gillicus fish, with no signs of digestion.

xii) A Perch swallowing a Herring is caught in the action by very quick burial at fossil
lake Wyoming.

Flood Traditions.

Every ancient culture has a Flood tradition. A survey of 120 tribes in North, South and Central America found every one to have a flood tradition. A post- Flood population would carry Flood ideas with them as they scattered across the world.

Flood accounts of isolated groups would change over time, but the basic ideas of a
universal Flood, safety in a ship, with few people surviving would survive. Noah's ark
would have been almost impossible to capsize, having a length to width ratio of 6 to 1
(ie. 300:50 cubits).

[Alan]

Umm. the oceans?

You are assuming the oceans and continents we have today today were there before the flood.

You're a couple hundred million years off base.


https://www.livescience.com/31910-north-america-geology-through-time.html

[4WD]

Umm. the oceans?

You are assuming the oceans and continents we have today today were there before the flood.

I don't think you are seeing the picture quite as a global flood would be.  If the entire earth is covered with water, there is no place for it to go.  So I ask again, If Noah's flood was a global event, just where was the water running to when it supposedly eroded the canyon to what it is today?

[The Barbarian]

However, when we look a bit more carefully at the landscapes in the area, the evidence is very clear. The canyon was indeed carved by Noah's Flood. But to recognize that, you have to think big.

"Thinking big" only makes the problem worse for creationists.    The kind of flow that could carve out rock a kilometer deep in less than a year would never cut a meander.    It would break right through the necks.  You see, there's no magic in Newton's laws; even water works by physics.     Water under tremendous force doesn't cut meandering traces.

[The Barbarian]

And we have another Gish Gallop.   Let's take a look...

Flood Proofs
Pre-Cambrian void, then abundant, complex Cambrian fossils.

I'm assuming you cut and pasted this.    You should know that there is an extensive precambrian fossil complex.   The Ediacaran biota includes many forms, including some that are also in the Cambrian.

Pre-Cambrian rocks are the pre-Flood basement. Post-Cambrian rocks are the post-Flood fossil rich strata. Earliest Cambrian rocks (supposedly 500 million years old) contain highly complex, diversified animal fossils which suddenly appeared.

Surprise.    Complex living things predate the Cambrian.   So there goes your Flood.

Question: How could this complex range of fauna evolve so suddenly and quickly?

The Cambrian is the first time that full-body armor is found.    Before that, fossils were largely soft, perhaps with some hard parts.    So the explosion of different forms seems to be a consequence of that.

This was as unexplainable to Darwin as it is to Evolutionists today.

Darwin didn't know of fossils that old.  We have many, many of them now.

Answer: Creationists easily explain this as the pre-Flood, post-Flood demarcation. The "2 billion year" geological column used to support the evolution of life, is actually a record of the destruction of life by the worldwide flood.

So, by your own admission, the fossil record refutes creationism.

The geological column is a record of life's departure, not of life's coming. The geological column represents 2 or 3 months deposition not 2 billion years

Nope.   For example, the strata in the Grand Canyon include layers with deserts and forests above one another.   How does a desert turn into a forest in 2 or 3 months?

Fossilisation. The existence of billions of plant and animal fossils preserved in the earth's crust speaks of a flood catastrophe.

If you were right, there would be no desert fossils in the fossil record.  But there are.   As you can see, the fact of those deserts and fossils stacked on top of each other refute your assumptions.

The fossil record is not "incomplete" as evolutionists argue, (incomplete only because it does not contain the links they need to
prove evolution), but is quantitatively huge, with a greater variety of species than are alive

That's wrong too.   When I was a young undergraduate, we had no fossils of whales with legs, feathered dinosaurs, other species of humans, transitions between fish and tetrapods, and so on.   Today, we do.  So reality overturns that objection.

Polystrate Trees. Crossing several rock strata are trees preserved as well at their tops as at their bottoms. These fossil trees bridge an evolutionary imagined time span of millions of years,

Nope.   You assume that deposits of sediment have to be slow.  But they can be rapid.   Polystrate trees are forming in a reservoir a few miles from my house, as woods flooded by a dam, are being buried by sediment over a period of decades.

that would preclude their "in place" growth and fossilisation.

And now you know better.

Simple to Complex by Flood Fossil Sorting.

We observe a general sorting of fossils from simple, spherical, dense sea creatures to
less dense, irregular shaped, complex creatures higher up.

Nope.  We see highly complex organisms like this:


Appearing in the Precambrian, while we see these simple one-celled organisms

in the Cretaceous.   

a) Evolutionists interpret this to mean that simple creatures lower down evolved to
complex creatures higher up over time.

The very earliest organisms are simple bacteria.  But complexity evolved rather rapidly.

b) Creationists match these observations with the sorting effect produced by Noah's
Flood, as follows:

i) Initial effects of the Flood would be to trap smaller, simple, spherical, dense
sea creatures like trilobites in sediment.

Trilobites weren't spherical.   They were, many of them longer and slimmer than crabs, which don't show up in those layers.

ii) Then plants and trees, being immobile, would be swept off the earth and
deposited, becoming coal of today.

Hard to explain why low-land trees like oaks were fossilized later than mountain trees like pines.   If your argument is correct, it refutes creationism.

iv) Reptiles and Dinosaurs living further inland and being relatively slow moving
(eg. brontosaurus) would be trapped next.

v) Land mammals and birds being faster-moving and living further inland would be
next deposited (eg. lions).

So the swift sloths just outran the slow velociraptors?   You sure about that?   (can you say "swift sloths" three times, real fast?)

i) Coal and Oil Reserves even in polar regions can only be explained by thecatastrophic burial of billions of plants and animals. Coal (fossil plants) weredeposited by a water catastrophe, not by slow accumulation in swamps. Fossil trees extend through several layers of coal.

Antarctica had a tropical climate at one time, as it was much farther north than it is today.   Would you like to learn how we know?

ii) Mammoths by the millions cover about 14% of the earth's surface from Siberia to Alaska, frozen so rapidly that their flesh is edible today.

That does happen when there's an ice age.   Why would that surprise you?

iii) Fossil Dinosaur Bones.

• in Dinosaur National monument Utah contain over 300 different kinds of dinosaurs.

In slightly higher strata, there are many mammals.  why would that be a surprise?

• in Geissseltal Germany, we find remains of 6000 fossil vertebrates.

The Karoo formation contains many millions of them.  Why is that a surprise?   That would seem to refute your belief of a single flood.  You see, if all these organisms lived at the same time, there would be so many living things, the earth could not support them.

Closed Clams. We find millions of fossil closed clams in a 3 foot stratum in Texas. Clams do not live packed together like this.

You didn't know this?

vi) Millions of fossil trilobites rolled into  defensive balls, and although marine, are
found 7000 feet high on mountains.

Mt. Everest,for example, has countless such fossils.  the Himalayas are made of continental shelf that rose above the sea as India pushed into Asia.    The collision is still continuing; it's measurable, a few centimeters a year.

800 billion fossils of amphibians, reptiles and fish covering 200,000 square miles in the Karoo formation of South Africa.

As pointed out, the earth could never have supported all of them at once.   You're working against yourself, here.

The fact that many different cultures have legends about floods could mean that there was once a worldwide flood, or it could mean that there have been many floods in different places over time.    Given that there's no evidence for a worldwide flood, and we know that there have been many great floods in the past, the conclusion is obvious.

More later.

[Amo]

https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/biggest-virus-ever-we-dont-understand-anything-anymore/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/07/140716-giant-viruses-science-life-evolution-origins/

https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/did-giant-viruses-evolve-from-smaller-viruses/

Yes, that's right, devolution. Wake up, open your eyes and stop denying the obvious scientific data, willingly ignorant scientists. Things were bigger, better, and more complex. We have not been evolving, we have been devolving. The world itself was larger, all animal and plant life was larger, and now we see that even viruses were much larger and much more complex then, than now. Get a grip, and stop denying what is right in front of your faces to support your ever increasingly questionable agenda driven theory of evolution from simple to complex. It absolutely is not what the ever increasing data suggests. Come out of your modernly developed dark ages, and return to the light of the testimony of scripture. God created a world far superior to this existing one, just as scripture records. That world was destroyed by way of judgment, and this inferior one now awaits judgement again for denying exactly what the pre flood world denied as well, God and the testimony of His servants.

Ps 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. 99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. 101 I have refrained my feet from every evil way, that I might keep thy word. 102 I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me. 103 How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Come out of the darkness of your own understanding, and enter the light and revelation of God's word.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJdfCiWo4I

A good one.

[The Barbarian]

Ah, the old "if we didn't directly observe it, we can't know it" dodge.    So we don't know if giant redwood trees grow from seeds, or if George Washington was president, or if the dog messed on the carpet, because we weren't around to see those things.

A creationist golden oldie.   

[The Barbarian]

'In fact, according to average erosion rates, many or all of the layers should be gone. Since they are there and flat, this indicates that the millions of years postulated for these gaps never occurred. These flat gaps are so common (see the pictures at right and below for some examples), that they pretty much challenge the validity of the whole geologic time scale.'

Many of the layers are gone in most places.   The entire gelological column exists in a few places on Earth, but it's generally not complete in any one area, precisely because of erosion.

[th1b.taylor]

It cannot possibly be verified that George Washington actually lived.  But we have considerable data available to us that says he did.  And while we may not be able to verify that the earth is 4.3 billion years old, we have considerable data available to us to support it.

We also have the Truth in the clear Word of God that proves our faith is valid and that without faith in what God has spoken through his agents we will not be saved. (Heb. 11:6)

[Alan]

We also have the Truth in the clear Word of God that proves our faith is valid and that without faith in what God has spoken through his agents we will not be saved. (Heb. 11:6)

Your version is not the "clear word of God" that you assert, it is your interpretation.

[Jean74]

The clear word of God is in the Bible and in the full human and full God of His one and only Son Jesus. The Christ, Lord, and Savior of the heaven and universe.

[Amo]

I don't think you are seeing the picture quite as a global flood would be.  If the entire earth is covered with water, there is no place for it to go.  So I ask again, If Noah's flood was a global event, just where was the water running to when it supposedly eroded the canyon to what it is today?

Where do all flood waters run back to, after the event which propelled them to destructive levels has ended? After the entire surface of the earth was reshaped by the flood, the waters receded again to lower regions of the earth. Other large areas of water being trapped by land breaking forth later or forming lakes and seas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD9ZGt9UA-U

http://beginningandend.com/scientists-confirm-biblical-account-of-the-fountains-of-the-deep/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jzijddw1qQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQUpFAcc3FM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hhE6tzJR_c

[The Barbarian]

There is much disagreement about many things in the Bible.  However, there is general agreement among Christians on the message God left within.    And it's not "was there a world-wide flood?" or "Is evolution really the way God created life's diversity?"

Those are things that don't matter to salvation.   Focus on the things that are clear enough that all Christian understand them.   That's where the message is.

[The Barbarian]

Yes, that's right, devolution.

There is no "devolution."  Evolution is just a change in allele frequency in a population over time.   So, for example, if therapsid reptiles evolve simpler jaws, shoulder girdles, and ribs (among other things) and eventually lead to mammals with less complex structure, that is not "devolution."    It's just a change in allele frequency, which is evolution.

Things were bigger, better, and more complex. We have not been evolving, we have been devolving.

On the other hand, when some mammals developed much more complex brains over time, that was also evolution.   Sometimes it makes things more complex, sometimes less.   It's still evolution.

The world itself was larger

Where did the extra mass go?   And why didn't the orbital mechanics change when the mass changed?   Sorry, not possible.

all animal and plant life was larger

Primates, birds, grasses, Octopi, and many other things have gotten larger.    So that's out, too.

and now we see that even viruses were much larger and much more complex then, than now.

That is a prediction of evolutionary theory.   To evolve a virus, you have to start with a cell and go from there.

Let God be God and accept the way He did it.   

[Amo]

There is no "devolution."  Evolution is just a change in allele frequency in a population over time.   So, for example, if therapsid reptiles evolve simpler jaws, shoulder girdles, and ribs (among other things) and eventually lead to mammals with less complex structure, that is not "devolution."    It's just a change in allele frequency, which is evolution.

On the other hand, when some mammals developed much more complex brains over time, that was also evolution.   Sometimes it makes things more complex, sometimes less.   It's still evolution.

Where did the extra mass go?   And why didn't the orbital mechanics change when the mass changed?   Sorry, not possible.

Primates, birds, grasses, Octopi, and many other things have gotten larger.    So that's out, too.

That is a prediction of evolutionary theory.   To evolve a virus, you have to start with a cell and go from there.

Let God be God and accept the way He did it.

Baloney.

[Amo]

Good videos relating to the dinosaur soft tissue issue. No rhyme intended. The second video reveals the willingness of scientists supposedly telling us the truth of the same, to lie to a judge in court about why they fired their employee. Obviously they are perfectly willing to lie in support of their own views, and force those with opposite views into silence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws9aFxdNA5E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W8aGH80uVQ

[Alan]

Good videos relating to the dinosaur soft tissue issue. No rhyme intended. The second video reveals the willingness of scientists supposedly telling us the truth of the same, to lie to a judge in court about why they fired their employee. Obviously they are perfectly willing to lie in support of their own views, and force those with opposite views into silence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws9aFxdNA5E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W8aGH80uVQ

This guy didn't prove anything other than he's a nut and has a bitter grudge because his peers reject his ridiculous claims.

[tooldtocare]

Looks like they missed

Modern Evolution Myth
Stories of Coming Into Being

NASA Finds Hydrocarbons on Saturn's Moon Hyperion
07.04.07
PASADENA , Calif. - NASA's Cassini spacecraft has revealed for the first time surface details of Saturn's moon Hyperion, including cup-like craters filled with hydrocarbons that may indicate more widespread presence in our solar system of basic chemicals necessary for life.

Hyperion yielded some of its secrets to the battery of instruments aboard Cassini as the spacecraft flew close by in September 2005. Water and carbon dioxide ices were found, as well as dark material that fits the spectral profile of hydrocarbons.

"Of special interest is the presence on Hyperion of hydrocarbons--combinations of carbon and hydrogen atoms that are found in comets, meteorites, and the dust in our galaxy," said Dale Cruikshank, a planetary scientist at NASA's Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif., and the paper's lead author. "These molecules, when embedded in ice and exposed to ultraviolet light, form new molecules of biological significance. This doesn't mean that we have found life, but it is a further indication that the basic chemistry needed for life is widespread in the universe."
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/media/cassini20070704.html

Saturn's orange moon Titan has hundreds of times more liquid hydrocarbons than all the known oil and natural gas reserves on Earth, according to new data from NASA's Cassini spacecraft. The hydrocarbons rain from the sky, collecting in vast deposits that form lakes and dunes.

The new findings from the study led by Ralph Lorenz, Cassini radar team member from the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, Laurel, Md., are reported in the Jan. 29 issue of the Geophysical Research Letters.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/media/cassini-20080213.html


(:-

[Amo]

This guy didn't prove anything other than he's a nut and has a bitter grudge because his peers reject his ridiculous claims.

Right, like the ridiculous claim that dinosaur soft tissues survived 68 to over a hundred million years. Denial passes for science, when science is agenda driven. These "scientists" had no problem at all lying to a judge in order to complete their agenda of firing a scientist whose views were different than their own. How much more willing would they be to lie in order to protect their own jobs, reputations, and agendas? How many more people all over the place are or have been treated similarly when finding evidence which tells a different story than main stream scientists will allow for? This is fallen humanity at its best. Always seeking to control and manipulate all around in accordance with our selfish pride.

[4WD]

Amo, the character trait you describe there is not a product of science even though some scientists exhibit such.  And it is not limited to scientists.  The vitriol spewed out by many YECs is no less caustic, divisive, controlling and manipulative than that by some scientists.  All you need to do to see that is to look in the mirror.  Seriously, in reading you, one would think that any who might disagree with you on this subject could not possibly ever enter into God's kingdom.  It is for you, it seems, an absolute test of fellowship; something that simply should not be  --  as the Barbarian has repeatedly pointed out to you.

[Amo]

Amo, the character trait you describe there is not a product of science even though some scientists exhibit such.  And it is not limited to scientists.  The vitriol spewed out by many YECs is no less caustic, divisive, controlling and manipulative than that by some scientists.  All you need to do to see that is to look in the mirror.  Seriously, in reading you, one would think that any who might disagree with you on this subject could not possibly ever enter into God's kingdom.  It is for you, it seems, an absolute test of fellowship; something that simply should not be  --  as the Barbarian has repeatedly pointed out to you.

I would not dare to separate myself from sinners as though I were any better than any of them, yet there is a major difference between our views and faith. I am not defending my own views, but the testimony of the holy scriptures. Evolutionists are defending the views of fallen humanity, in contrast and contradiction to God's word. Their faith is in the observations of fallen humanity, above the word of God. They tell you God's word does not mean what plainly states, but rather what they teach it says, though they will not explain such in any detail. They then also refuse all evidence which supports what the bible does plainly state, and again teach that all such evidence is false as is the word of God pertaining to it, which only they truly understand but again cannot explain to anyone else. I am not the one defending views which blatantly contradict the testimony of scripture, all of which scripture your claim to be untrue, or has a meaning which no one can really explain but fully supports a theory which contradicts plain conclusive statements in scripture.

2 Tim 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Do you believe the above testimony? How can you, when you deny the creation and flood accounts of scripture, which are supported all through the same and even by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself? How can the above be true, if when the scriptures conclusively state that the world was created in six days, it really meant countless millions of years which no one really knows the length of yet? When all the details of the creation account really cannot even be understood, because it just a story representing something else, which God allowed and taught as truth for thousands of years? This is a matter of faith. What is our faith in? The word of God, or the observations of fallen humanity? That is all. We are all sinners, choosing either faith in God, or faith in ourselves.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Your faith is in the wrong place, this is my contention. You do not believe the testimony of God's word regarding the creation and flood accounts. They cannot fit into your evolutionary faith, they are therefore sacrificed to fallen human observation.

[4WD]

I would not dare to separate myself from sinners as though I were any better than any of them, yet there is a major difference between our views and faith. I am not defending my own views, but the testimony of the holy scriptures.

Of course you are defending your own views.  As I have said several times here previously.  It is not about what God says, it is about what you think God means when He says what He does.  Your interpretation is no holier than anyone else's.  You just, self-righteously, think it is.

You, Amo, declare that any who disagree with your view have their faith in the wrong place.  How unscriptural is that?  So sad; so very, very sad and troubling.

[Amo]

Of course you are defending your own views.  As I have said several times here previously.  It is not about what God says, it is about what you think God means when He says what He does.  Your interpretation is no holier than anyone else's.  You just, self-righteously, think it is.

You, Amo, declare that any who disagree with your view have their faith in the wrong place.  How unscriptural is that?  So sad; so very, very sad and troubling.

What is your argument, but that there is no objective truth, and the scriptures cannot be understood well enough by any for any to actually understand rightly. Is this what scripture teaches about itself? No, this is your stand, because you reject its plain testimony in certain places, while claiming authenticity in others that do not contradict something else you have chosen to believe.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

The bible clearly states the details of the creation of this earth in six days. You demand this cannot be true according to the observations of fallen humanity. God Himself then conclusively reiterates this truth in one of the commandments written with His own finger, and spoken to Israel with His own mouth. You still reject the same in favor of fallen human observation, and then demand that anyone who believes His testimony is only arguing their own views. According to you, even the commandments of God cannot be understood by humanity at all I guess. How cruel God is according to your understanding, demanding people keep commandments they can't really even understand, which don't even really mean what they say. Then even punishing them several times over for not keeping the one commandment that according to you, doesn't even really mean what it says. Yet I am the one just arguing my own views. I don't think so. Your understanding is darkened because your faith is misplaced. Therefore you accuse the one who has faith in God's word above fallen humanities erroneous observations, as deceived.

Mk 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

You reject and lay aside the commandment of God, that you might hold the erroneous evolutionary tradition of men.

[Alan]

Denial passes for science, when science is agenda driven.

What is this "agenda" you speak of?