Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[KiwiChristian]

Actually the word is "ארץ"  which is transliterated in English as "erets" and is translated as the following:

H776

ארץ

'erets

eh'-rets

From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): -  X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.


But no matter.  The point is that it is the same word used in describing both the flood of Noah and the famine of Joseph.

Wrong.

the word is הָאָ֙רֶץ֙

You are right that the word IS used in both instances.

However, the word has more than one meaning.

It does not mean that the same, singular meaning is used in both instances.

[KiwiChristian]

Since wood roaches, which gave rise to termites, had microbes, it would appear the microbes were first.

That is loaded with a false presupposition.

So, how did the microbes exist outside of the termite?

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian  observes:
Since wood roaches, which gave rise to termites, had microbes, it would appear the microbes were first.

That is loaded with a false presupposition.

Nope.  Would you like to learn about the evidence for termites evolving from wood roaches?   It includes genetics, homologies, and of course, a transitional form between the two.  If you like, we can talk about them.

So, how did the microbes exist outside of the termite?

In wood roaches.   Primitive termites depend on eukaryotic symbionts, as wood roaches do.  More advanced termites depend on prokaryotic (bacteria-like) endosymbionts.

Would you like to learn about those?

[The Barbarian]

Equating the observable science of demonstrating the law of gravity before our very eyes, with the guess work of what supposedly took place over completely unobservable countless millions and billions of years.

Actually, evolutionary theory is more certain than gravitational theory.   We know why evolution works, but we still aren't certain why gravity works.

Which guess work is constantly being revised and corrected from previous mistakes

Creationists can never decide whether:
1. scientists have locked themselves into a theory that cannot be challenged
2. scientists are constantly upgrading and improving the theory as time goes on.

Hint: it's #2.   Probably seems like cheating to creationists,  who are locked into their man-made belief system.    But gravitational theory has undergone revisions as well.   That's how science works.




 

[KiwiChristian]

Barbarian  observes:
Since wood roaches, which gave rise to termites, had microbes, it would appear the microbes were first.

Nope.  Would you like to learn about the evidence for termites evolving from wood roaches?   It includes genetics, homologies, and of course, a transitional form between the two.  If you like, we can talk about them.

Did this mythical "transitional fossil" show the microbes?


In wood roaches.   Primitive termites depend on eukaryotic symbionts, as wood roaches do.  More advanced termites depend on prokaryotic (bacteria-like) endosymbionts.

how did they survive outside the wood roaches?

[Jean74]

I believe in Christ and believe in creation the world and heaven. So will leave it at that.

[Michael2012]

I believe in Christ and believe in creation the world and heaven. So will leave it at that.

And that at Noah's time, God destroyed all flesh with the earth by a flood so that no land is not flooded and no living thing have any land to go to and escape the waters, save Noah and those with him in the ark.

Some Christian scientists can't believe this because they have confidence in science. And with their scientific mindset, they find themselves taking the word of God to be true or interpret it somehow with science on the top. It must be the other way around. That the Christian scientists must start with the truth of scriptures and see and experience life in this light rather than with that of scientific knowledge.

With regards then to the Noah's flood, I think these Christian scientists fail to realize that God destroyed even the earth with such unimaginable catastrophic flood waters coming from above and beneath that rendered the original earth, spoiled to the degree that the earth as it was after the flood, had become a spoiled scientific sample of the original in their quest for knowledge of the origins of it, with which they have based their so-called evolution theories.

We must not also forget that science is all guesswork relative to the definite truths laid out and revealed by God in the Holy Scriptures.

It has been impressed that by science, life gets better with science knowledge. In a very limited sense, it is. But the moment the christian is deceived into believing that science makes life better in the general sense as though a good life depends on it, he is driven farther away rather than closer to God in whom alone we have life, life that is way far beyond better than what the blessed christians may be experiencing today, and will have yet to experience in God's time.

[AVZ]

And that at Noah's time, God destroyed all flesh with the earth by a flood so that no land is not flooded and no living thing have any land to go to and escape the waters, save Noah and those with him in the ark.

Some Christian scientists can't believe this because they have confidence in science. And with their scientific mindset, they find themselves taking the word of God to be true or interpret it somehow with science on the top. It must be the other way around. That the Christian scientists must start with the truth of scriptures and see and experience life in this light rather than with that of scientific knowledge.

With regards then to the Noah's flood, I think these Christian scientists fail to realize that God destroyed even the earth with such unimaginable catastrophic flood waters coming from above and beneath that rendered the original earth, spoiled to the degree that the earth as it was after the flood, had become a spoiled scientific sample of the original in their quest for knowledge of the origins of it, with which they have based their so-called evolution theories.

We must not also forget that science is all guesswork relative to the definite truths laid out and revealed by God in the Holy Scriptures.

It has been impressed that by science, life gets better with science knowledge. In a very limited sense, it is. But the moment the christian is deceived into believing that science makes life better in the general sense as though a good life depends on it, he is driven farther away rather than closer to God in whom alone we have life, life that is way far beyond better than what the blessed christians may be experiencing today, and will have yet to experience in God's time.

I just wonder through how many hoops science wants God to jump before anything that's stated clearly will be accepted as such.
Its just like you can hear the Serpent in the Garden again.
God said: "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die."
Well, more clear that that God could not have said it.

But the Serpent said: "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" and "You will not certainly die,"
In other words; God must be mistaken, it doesn't really mean what you think He said.


The evolution theory and whatever reduction scientists come up with is exactly the same.
God said: "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created--and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground--for I regret that I have made them."

But science says: "Nah, God didn't really mean the whole earth or all humans and animals, God only meant part of the earth and part of life"

And I just wonder, what does God have to do to get His message across? It seems to me that it really doesn't matter how simple or complicated God states things. If we want we can always find some excuse to argue that God wasn't clear enough.

[4WD]

Such hate and mistrust.  I can only assume that Michael and AVZ both must have been beaten up or severely mistreated as little kids by some scientists living in their neighborhoods.  Or maybe they flunked all of the science classes in school.

[Michael2012]

Such hate and mistrust.  I can only assume that Michael and AVZ both must have been beaten up or severely mistreated as little kids by some scientists living in their neighborhoods.  Or maybe they flunked all of the science classes in school.

No hate there whatsoever 4WD. It's simply the truth of God's words in scriptures against scientific theories by scientists.

[4WD]

No hate there whatsoever 4WD. It's simply the truth of God's words in scriptures against scientific theories by scientists.

It must be hate.  There is no word in scriptures against scientific theories by scientists.  There is word by some Christians against scientific theories, but most of those are by Christians having little to no real training and understanding in the sciences, and perhaps not nearly so much as they think in the meaning of the Scriptures.

[Alan]

It's simply the truth of God's words in scriptures against scientific theories by scientists.

It's very clearly a lack of knowledge combined with vincible ignorance that fuels your narrative. It's okay though Michael, you're not alone. There are obviously many that have adopted a philosophy that "what is seen and observed must be false in order to keep the word of God as I believe it to be".

[th1b.taylor]

It's very clearly a lack of knowledge combined with vincible ignorance that fuels your narrative. It's okay though Michael, you're not alone. There are obviously many that have adopted a philosophy that "what is seen and observed must be false in order to keep the word of God as I believe it to be".

it is a sad moment when the Atheist realizes he has lost the debate and moves, in desperation, into the Kill the Messenger Mode, not pretty to see such weakness.

[Alan]

it is a sad moment when the Atheist realizes he has lost the debate and moves, in desperation, into the Kill the Messenger Mode, not pretty to see such weakness.

Which atheist is that?

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:29:58

No hate there whatsoever 4WD. It's simply the truth of God's words in scriptures against scientific theories by scientists.

It must be hate.  There is no word in scriptures against scientific theories by scientists.  There is word by some Christians against scientific theories, but most of those are by Christians having little to no real training and understanding in the sciences, and perhaps not nearly so much as they think in the meaning of the Scriptures.

If you see that as hate, hate then it is to you. As for me, I don't see as hate, the pointing out to the Christian scientists, who only believes an understanding of scriptures that scientific knowledge and theories agrees with, or when it is backed up by scientific evidence, that he should not forget where he is coming from. That he has begun in the spirit and should continue in the spirit, and be taught by the spirit, and live according to the spirit, and not fall back into his former self who was in the flesh, as to continue in the flesh, be taught by the flesh, and live according to the flesh. To remind him of this, to me, is love, not hate.

Scriptures sure has no word against scientific theories by scientists. But what are these theories? Are they not meant to accomplish, or to try to give an explanation of how things in the natural world work through human intelligence, wisdom, understanding, and observation and repeated experimentation? And scientists (not all for sure), specially organized scientists, by "science" then and their accomplishment or so called discoveries, they think and are naturally puffed up, even to the point of thinking that some day, the intelligence of man will get to the bottom of all these things, ultimately attaining to a far superior knowledge than what man currently now have by means of science. They impress upon the world that this is all for the good of humanity. Does not scientists dream and aims at going beyond the heavens above? And for what?

This comes to mind. In ancient times, sometime after the Noah's flood, it came to pass, the people said one to another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens, let us make a name for ourselves lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth." This is nothing compare to the intelligence and knowledge of man today. Yet, the Lord said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." The Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 

Man must know and not go beyond the boundaries that God have placed them in. One of these boundaries is earth. God does not want us to go to the moon, mars or anywhere beyond earth. As can be seen in the story above, God stopped them. As to why, I leave it as a thought for us to ponder about.

[4WD]

Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake by "Christians" holding a view of things similar to yours.

[Michael2012]

Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake by "Christians" holding a view of things similar to yours.

According to wikipedia:

Starting in 1593, Bruno was tried for heresy by the Roman Inquisition on charges of denial of several core Catholic doctrines, including eternal damnation, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and transubstantiation. Bruno's pantheism was also a matter of grave concern,[4] as was his teaching of the transmigration of the soul (reincarnation). The Inquisition found him guilty, and he was burned at the stake in Rome's Campo de' Fiori in 1600.

What similarity?

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 07:29:58

It's simply the truth of God's words in scriptures against scientific theories by scientists.

It's very clearly a lack of knowledge combined with vincible ignorance that fuels your narrative. It's okay though Michael, you're not alone. There are obviously many that have adopted a philosophy that "what is seen and observed must be false in order to keep the word of God as I believe it to be".

Here' a biblical story that is relevant to man's knowledge. In ancient times, sometime after the Noah's flood, it came to pass, the people said one to another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens, let us make a name for ourselves lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth." This is nothing compared to the intelligence and knowledge of man today. Yet, the Lord said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." The Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 

There is a so called language of science, with all the scientific terms and all that the ordinary man do not understand. And apparently they are one and apparently nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them, just like the people in the story. They think and are naturally puffed up, even to the point of thinking that some day, the intelligence of man will get to the bottom of all these things, ultimately attaining to a far superior knowledge than what man currently now have by means of science. They impress upon the world that this is all for the good of humanity. Do they not dream and aims at going beyond the heavens above? And for what?

They clearly are going beyond the boundaries that God have set for man. One of these boundaries is earth. God does not want man to go to the moon, Mars or anywhere beyond earth. As can be seen in the story above, God stopped them.

God created all of creation. That by itself is more than sufficient to know and grasp of the power and intelligence of God, that we need to spend our time trying to find out how God did it. Besides, we will all fail in doing so.

Ecclesiates 3:9-11
9 What profit has the worker from that in which he labors? 10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

Alan...
"There are obviously many that have adopted a philosophy that "what is seen and observed must be false in order to keep the word of God as I believe it to be."

Alan, I don't hold the philosophy that "what is seen and observed must be false in order to keep the word of God as I believe it to be".

We don't need science to know that when a stone is thrown up in the air that it will fall back to the ground. We don't need science to know that the birds can fly, that man can't breath in water, that a seed grows to be a plant in time, etc. We know as we see, observe, and experience things. How can these things be false? What in one's life is seen, observed, and experienced by the person is known to him and regard them as truth. The problem with man is when he attempts, by science, to see and observe the not observable, something which is obviously impossible for man to do. So he guesses and try to work its way by scientific methods, until he convinces himself and make conclusions. Yet it remains, the scientist  does not and cannot know the not observable things by whatever he does, even science.   

[4WD]

Yet it remains, the scientist  does not and cannot know the not observable things by whatever he does, even science. 

Ever hear of an electron?

[4WD]

According to wikipedia:

Starting in 1593, Bruno was tried for heresy by the Roman Inquisition on charges of denial of several core Catholic doctrines, including eternal damnation, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and transubstantiation. Bruno's pantheism was also a matter of grave concern,[4] as was his teaching of the transmigration of the soul (reincarnation). The Inquisition found him guilty, and he was burned at the stake in Rome's Campo de' Fiori in 1600.

What similarity?

You need to read a little more than the first paragraph of the article in Wikipedia.  If you did you would find that his major "crime" was holding a view of the universe, specifically that the sun did not revolve around the earth, that the Catholic Church found counter to what they thought the Bible said.  They were wrong.

[Michael2012]

You need to read a little more than the first paragraph of the article in Wikipedia.  If you did you would find that his major "crime" was holding a view of the universe, specifically that the sun did not revolve around the earth, that the Catholic Church found counter to what they thought the Bible said.  They were wrong.

What is your point in bringing up the life of Giordano Bruno, his condemnation by the Catholic church?

[Michael2012]

  Ever hear of an electron?

Why do you asked?

[AVZ]

What is your point in bringing up the life of Giordano Bruno, his condemnation by the Catholic church?

4WD wants to make a point that Christians killed people who they thought were wrong about interpretation of scripture, when in fact they themselves were wrong.
The argument makes as much sense as saying that since the general acceptance of Darwin's Evolution some 100 years ago, more people have been massacred by those who believe in evolution than in the past 2000 years of church history.

To be correct, the biggest slaughter has yet to come. That what is described in Revelation.
I bet you all those who will do the persecution and killing will be evolutionists.

[4WD]

4WD wants to make a point that Christians killed people who they thought were wrong about interpretation of scripture, when in fact they themselves were wrong.

And that is indeed true.

The argument makes as much sense as saying that since the general acceptance of Darwin's Evolution some 100 years ago, more people have been massacred by those who believe in evolution than in the past 2000 years of church history.

That may be true.  However they weren't murdered  because they didn't believe in evolution.

To be correct, the biggest slaughter has yet to come. That what is described in Revelation.
I bet you all those who will do the persecution and killing will be evolutionists.

That may or may not be true; but that has nothing to do with evolution or the reason for the persecution and killing.  Your statements are a non sequitur.

[Alan]

It's very clearly a lack of knowledge combined with vincible ignorance that fuels your narrative. It's okay though Michael, you're not alone. There are obviously many that have adopted a philosophy that "what is seen and observed must be false in order to keep the word of God as I believe it to be".


Here' a biblical story that is relevant to man's knowledge. In ancient times, sometime after the Noah's flood, it came to pass, the people said one to another, "Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens, let us make a name for ourselves lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth." This is nothing compared to the intelligence and knowledge of man today. Yet, the Lord said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." The Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 

There is a so called language of science, with all the scientific terms and all that the ordinary man do not understand. And apparently they are one and apparently nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them, just like the people in the story. They think and are naturally puffed up, even to the point of thinking that some day, the intelligence of man will get to the bottom of all these things, ultimately attaining to a far superior knowledge than what man currently now have by means of science. They impress upon the world that this is all for the good of humanity. Do they not dream and aims at going beyond the heavens above? And for what?

They clearly are going beyond the boundaries that God have set for man. One of these boundaries is earth. God does not want man to go to the moon, Mars or anywhere beyond earth. As can be seen in the story above, God stopped them.

God created all of creation. That by itself is more than sufficient to know and grasp of the power and intelligence of God, that we need to spend our time trying to find out how God did it. Besides, we will all fail in doing so.

Ecclesiates 3:9-11
9 What profit has the worker from that in which he labors? 10 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

Alan...
"There are obviously many that have adopted a philosophy that "what is seen and observed must be false in order to keep the word of God as I believe it to be."

Alan, I don't hold the philosophy that "what is seen and observed must be false in order to keep the word of God as I believe it to be".

We don't need science to know that when a stone is thrown up in the air that it will fall back to the ground. We don't need science to know that the birds can fly, that man can't breath in water, that a seed grows to be a plant in time, etc. We know as we see, observe, and experience things. How can these things be false? What in one's life is seen, observed, and experienced by the person is known to him and regard them as truth. The problem with man is when he attempts, by science, to see and observe the not observable, something which is obviously impossible for man to do. So he guesses and try to work its way by scientific methods, until he convinces himself and make conclusions. Yet it remains, the scientist  does not and cannot know the not observable things by whatever he does, even science.   

Again, in a roundabout way you are purporting that scientists have a goal to defy God and prove the bible as false, that isn't true at all, the majority of scientists are simply doing their job without the thought of creation, deities, or spirituality.

[AVZ]

the majority of scientists are simply doing their job without the thought of creation, deities, or spirituality.

And that's exactly the problem

[Alan]

And that's exactly the problem

Not at all, their studies should be completely devoid of any influence other than the facts presented by said studies.


If we stop doing research to confirm our beliefs and look for information that expands our minds, we all may learn a thing or two, that includes our bible studies.

[Michael2012]

Again, in a roundabout way you are purporting that scientists have a goal to defy God and prove the bible as false, that isn't true at all, the majority of scientists are simply doing their job without the thought of creation, deities, or spirituality.

I am not at all saying nor implying that scientists have a goal to defy God and prove the bible as false. What I was saying is that science apparently lead humankind to:  1) being puffed up in the knowledge of things and nature, 2) think that man will evolve to having a far superior knowledge than what man currently now have by means of science, 3) impress upon the world that what they convinced themselves which is called scientific knowledge is all for the good of humanity, 4) think that we can fulfill our hopes and dreams through the knowledge of science.     

Intentionally or not, this is where science leads humankind. It molds the mind of man, that conditions his thinking into the things mentioned above. And the world do so even at the early learning age of man. This send out the wrong message to man that projects man to somehow can become less dependent on God, or altogether come to believe that there is no God or think of God as something that God is not as revealed in the Holy Bible, as to be some impersonal force or energy, or what.     

[Michael2012]

If we stop doing research to confirm our beliefs and look for information that expands our minds, we all may learn a thing or two, that includes our bible studies.

Do we need to confirm our faith by scientific research? I don't think that should be. For the testimony written in the scriptures confirms the very faith we Christians have in God, even the HS that dwells in the children of God.     

[4WD]

Do we need to confirm our faith by scientific research? I don't think that should be. For the testimony written in the scriptures confirms the very faith we Christians have in God, even the HS that dwells in the children of God. 

Just another post that shows that you do not understand what faith is are how one comes to a faith in God. The Scriptures do not confirm our faith in God.  The Scriptures present the evidence by which we develop our faith in God.

[Alan]

Do we need to confirm our faith by scientific research? I don't think that should be. For the testimony written in the scriptures confirms the very faith we Christians have in God, even the HS that dwells in the children of God.   

You missed the point, which was that we have a tendency to do research to confirm our already existent beliefs, whatever they may be; The Bible, God's nature, Science, politics, etc, etc.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:36:56

Do we need to confirm our faith by scientific research? I don't think that should be. For the testimony written in the scriptures confirms the very faith we Christians have in God, even the HS that dwells in the children of God.

Just another post that shows that you do not understand what faith is are how one comes to a faith in God. The Scriptures do not confirm our faith in God.  The Scriptures present the evidence by which we develop our faith in God.

No 4WD. It's another post that shows that we differ in understanding of what faith is and how one gets to have faith in God.

You say that Scriptures do not confirm your faith in God. What then confirms your faith in God?

You say that the Scriptures present the evidence by which we develop our faith in God. If that is so, does not Scriptures then, being the evidence of what faith you supposedly have developed in God, confirms your faith in God?   

[4WD]

You say that Scriptures do not confirm your faith in God. What then confirms your faith in God?

I do. How, you might ask. By what I say and do.

That you do not understand that just shows one more time you do not understand what faith is.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 11:26:22

You say that Scriptures do not confirm your faith in God. What then confirms your faith in God?

I do. How, you might ask. By what I say and do.

That you do not understand that just shows one more time you do not understand what faith is.

What you say and do shows your faith, whether it is in God or not. It does in a sense confirm it, but only if such were in keeping with the will of God written in Scriptures.

An going back to my point relative to this thread, in my comment to Alan's post, we need not confirm our faith by scientific research.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:36:56

Do we need to confirm our faith by scientific research? I don't think that should be. For the testimony written in the scriptures confirms the very faith we Christians have in God, even the HS that dwells in the children of God.   

You missed the point, which was that we have a tendency to do research to confirm our already existent beliefs, whatever they may be; The Bible, God's nature, Science, politics, etc, etc.

But that only implies that what belief we currently have, including that with regards to what Bible says, is still with some amount of doubt. I find this to be contrary to faith, to what faith is.