Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[geronimo]

 UH OH.
You may have to throw another word in with creation and evolution. Maybe it's also "alienation". (a little different meaning than the norm)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/wonder/scientists-claim-octopuses-came-from-outer-space/vi-AAxrArI?ocid=spartandhp&ffid=gz

[soterion]

UH OH.
You may have to throw another word in with creation and evolution. Maybe it's also "alienation". (a little different meaning than the norm)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/wonder/scientists-claim-octopuses-came-from-outer-space/vi-AAxrArI?ocid=spartandhp&ffid=gz

Well, the source is MSN. Enough said.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
It's directly observed.   Can't do better than that.

Even if the statement were true,

And it's true.  Perhaps you don't know what evolution means.  What do you think it means?

it would amount to nothing in the way of denying YE creation.

The Bible does that nicely.    The "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism is directly contradicted by the Bible.

It would simply mean God created life with the ability to evolve

Of course He did.  He is the Creator, after all.

Evolution is consistent with his word, but not with the modern doctrine of YE creationism.

God is not subject to any theory of fallen humanity in any way shape or form concerning anything.

Fortunately, He doesn't care if you accept the way He did it.    It's not a salvation issue.

You rely on your own understanding, but those who try to confine Him to a box of their own understanding or creation are in in no danger of  losing their salvation, unless they try deny salvation to those who accept the way He did things.

[The Barbarian]

First, the Catholic Church which denied the heliocentric system is not fundamentalist.

No pope ever denied the heliocentric system ex cathedra.   That was never the doctrine of the Catholic Church.   However, it was the doctrine of both Martin Luther and Calvin.

To the contrary it declares all fundamentalists as violent terrorists whether they practice violence or not.

Well, let's take a look...

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

You've been badly misled about that.

Second, the bible does not deny the heliocentric system it simply does not specifically address the issue at all.

Calvin and Luther disagree with you.   Would you like me to show you?

[Amo]

Barbarian observes:
It's directly observed.   Can't do better than that.

And it's true.  Perhaps you don't know what evolution means.  What do you think it means?

The Bible does that nicely.    The "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism is directly contradicted by the Bible.

Of course He did.  He is the Creator, after all.

Evolution is consistent with his word, but not with the modern doctrine of YE creationism.

Fortunately, He doesn't care if you accept the way He did it.    It's not a salvation issue.

You rely on your own understanding, but those who try to confine Him to a box of their own understanding or creation are in in no danger of  losing their salvation, unless they try deny salvation to those who accept the way He did things.

Yes, I understand the faith you have chosen in relation to the fact that things can and do change. This is not the theory of evolution though, regardless of your word games. Evolution as the cause or method of our existence has not and cannot be observed. All of course are free to exercise faith in the theory in direct contradiction to biblical testimony, if they wish. Contrary to claims from "Christian" evolutionists or the Roman Catholic Church, no one needs them to correctly understand God's testimony to humanity.

You continue to spout off claims already proved to be untrue. YE creationism is not new, and you know that as everyone else on these boards who can read does as well, if they were willing to view the evidence against this unfounded claim. It is no surprise therefore, that you ignore all other evidence which contradicts your pet theory.

Just exactly what are you saved from in Christ Jesus Barbarian, if death is not the result of sin, but the natural process of evolution through which God created the world? Please do give us a coherent explanation of your gospel from the beginning including the evolution you claim the bible supports and or teaches. If you cannot do this, why would any believe your gospel?

[4WD]

Just exactly what are you saved from in Christ Jesus Barbarian, if death is not the result of sin, but the natural process of evolution through which God created the world? Please do give us a coherent explanation of your gospel from the beginning including the evolution you claim the bible supports and or teaches. If you cannot do this, why would any believe your gospel?

I don't know about you, but I am saved from my own sins and a resulting spiritual death.  I have no responsibility for anything Adam did, nor can Adam's sin have any effect upon my spiritual well being. God has made that abundantly clear.  If you think that the entire universe was turned upside down and physical death came as a result of something Adam did, then please give us a coherent explanation of how that happened.  What was the specific mechanism to bring about such a monstrous change in God's creation.  Who do you think has the ability to change God's creation?  Where did such ability come from?

[Amo]

No pope ever denied the heliocentric system ex cathedra.   That was never the doctrine of the Catholic Church.   However, it was the doctrine of both Martin Luther and Calvin.

Well, let's take a look...

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

You've been badly misled about that.

Calvin and Luther disagree with you.   Would you like me to show you?

Yes, we know of your tendency to deny all that contradicts the faith you have chosen and choose to follow. Yes, I would like to see what Calvin and Luther believed in relation to heliocentrism thank you. Of course their views were no doubt influenced by the Catholic Church having both been members of the same before they came out. While they both came out and refuted much of Catholicism, neither of them gave up all of Rome's erroneous teachings. Observe the following.

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/31/world/after-350-years-vatican-says-galileo-was-right-it-moves.html

After 350 Years, Vatican Says Galileo Was Right: It Moves

More than 350 years after the Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo, Pope John Paul II is poised to rectify one of the Church's most infamous wrongs -- the persecution of the Italian astronomer and physicist for proving the Earth moves around the Sun.

With a formal statement at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Saturday, Vatican officials said the Pope will formally close a 13-year investigation into the Church's condemnation of Galileo in 1633. The condemnation, which forced the astronomer and physicist to recant his discoveries, led to Galileo's house arrest for eight years before his death in 1642 at the age of 77.

The dispute between the Church and Galileo has long stood as one of history's great emblems of conflict between reason and dogma, science and faith. The Vatican's formal acknowledgement of an error, moreover, is a rarity in an institution built over centuries on the belief that the Church is the final arbiter in matters of faith.

At the time of his condemnation, Galileo had won fame and the patronage of leading Italian powers like the Medicis and Barberinis for discoveries he had made with the astronomical telescope he had built. But when his observations led him to proof of the Copernican theory of the solar system, in which the sun and not the earth is the center, and which the Church regarded as heresy, Galileo was summoned to Rome by the Inquisition. Forced to Recant

By the end of his trial, Galileo was forced to recant his own scientific findings as "abjured, cursed and detested," a renunciation that caused him great personal anguish but which saved him from being burned at the stake.

Since then, the Church has taken various steps to reverse its opposition to Galileo's conclusions. In 1757, Galileo's "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems" was removed from the Index, a former list of publications banned by the Church. When the latest investigation, conducted by a panel of scientists, theologians and historians, made a preliminary report in 1984, it said that Galileo had been wrongfully condemned. More recently, Pope John Paul II himself has said that the scientist was "imprudently opposed."

"We today know that Galileo was right in adopting the Copernican astronomical theory," Paul Cardinal Poupard, the head of the current investigation, said in an interview published this week.

This theory had been presented in a book published in 1543 by the Polish scientist Nicolaus Copernicus in opposition to the prevailing theory, advanced by the second-century astronomer Ptolemy, that the Sun and the rest of the cosmos orbited the Earth. But the contest between the two models was purely on theoretic and theological grounds until Galileo made the first observations of the four largest moons of Jupiter, exploding the Ptolemaic notion that all heavenly bodies must orbit the Earth.

In 1616, the Copernican view was declared heretical because it refuted a strict biblical interpreation of the Creation that "God fixed the Earth upon its foundation, not to be moved forever." But Galileo obtained the permission of Pope Urban VIII, a Barberini and a friend, to continue research into both the Ptolemaic and the Copernican views of the world, provided that his findings drew no definitive conclusions and acknowledged divine omnipotence.

But when, in 1632, Galileo published his findings in "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems," the work was a compelling endorsement of the Copernican system.

Summoned to Rome for trial by the Inquisition one year later, Galileo defended himself by saying that scientific research and the Christian faith were not mutually exclusive and that study of the natural world would promote understanding and interpretation of the scriptures. But his views were judged "false and erroneous." Aging, ailing and threatened with torture by the Inquisition, Galileo recanted on April 30, 1633.

Because of his advanced years, he was permitted house arrest in Siena. Legend has it that as Galileo rose from kneeling before his inquisitors, he murmured, "e pur, si muove" -- "even so, it does move."

[Amo]

Well, let's take a look...

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

The above does not address Christian Fundamentalists.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pope+declares+all+fundamentalists+violent&view=detail&mid=DB9E484C7AC8131677A2DB9E484C7AC8131677A2&FORM=VIRE

[Amo]

I don't know about you, but I am saved from my own sins and a resulting spiritual death.  I have no responsibility for anything Adam did, nor can Adam's sin have any effect upon my spiritual well being. God has made that abundantly clear.  If you think that the entire universe was turned upside down and physical death came as a result of something Adam did, then please give us a coherent explanation of how that happened.  What was the specific mechanism to bring about such a monstrous change in God's creation.  Who do you think has the ability to change God's creation?  Where did such ability come from?

Not the person I asked, or what I asked for, typical though. Let me do what you apparently will not , that is, answer your question with conclusive statements from scripture. Which of course you will deny and or ignore.

1. Gen 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree or they would die.

2. Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons

The devil said they wouldn't die, they did eat the fruit God told them not to eat, and death entered the world through this sin. God immediately implemented the plan of salvation which gave Adam and Eve and all of humanity a time of probation to choose that salvation over the death they deserved to die for disobeying God. Genesis does not speak of spiritual death as you do, you add this to support your own understanding, which in turn supports that which you add to Genesis as well to support evolution. Death of course includes the end of body and spirit.

3. 1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Death came upon humanity through Adam, not evolution. In Adam's disobedience all die, but in Christ's obedience all shall be made alive. All life immediately following the fall in the garden is in Christ alone. Apart from His sacrifice humanity would have ended in the garden. All owe their lives to Him, and only those who acknowledge this will receive the gift of eternal life so often promised for the same in scripture.

4. 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Christ died for all, because apart from Him all were dead.

5. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Death entered the world through sin. The sin of Adam and Eve, not the process of evolution which the bible does not address at all but blatantly contradicts.

6. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Again, the wages of sin is death. Your theory of evolution makes death one of the key mechanisms of producing life. This is not biblical at all, but contradicts the bible's testimony.

7. Jms 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Sin brought and brings forth death. Death was not part of God's creation which your theory of evolution denies. To the contrary, your theory requires numberless deaths to produce the life which God declares he brought about without and apart from death in His word. Please do expound upon your views regarding the gospel of Jesus and salvation in relation to your theory of evolution regarding death in particular.

[4WD]

Not the person I asked, or what I asked for, typical though. Let me do what you apparently will not , that is, answer your question with conclusive statements from scripture. Which of course you will deny and or ignore.

1. Gen 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree or they would die.

In verse 17 God says, "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Amo, that is precisely what happened. They sinned; they died spiritually in that day; in that very instant. There is nothing there that says anything about their dying physically from eating the fruit.  In fact they lived, according to Scripture, hundreds more years.  None of that has anything to do with physical death. The two are totally unrelated.

And since you do not understand what God has said in Genesis 2:15-17 the rest of what you posted is simply all screwed up.  I could go through each of your points but since you do not understand the truth that physical death is a result of creation and spiritual death is a result of sin and the two are unrelated it would serve no purpose  --  you wouldn't understand.

[The Barbarian]

Yes, I understand the faith you have chosen in relation to the fact that things can and do change.

In science we depend on evidence, not faith.   Creationism is faith in man's doctrines.   Science only deals in evidence.

This is not the theory of evolution though, regardless of your word games.

Perhaps you haven't learned what evolution is.  What do you think it is?

Evolution as the cause or method of our existence

Nope.  That's not it. 

It's not about what God says to Humanity, either.  As Everett Dirkson remarked, people are most often down on things they aren't up on.

You continue to spout off claims already proved to be untrue.

I can show you whatever you'd like to challenge.

YE creationism is not new

It was invented by the Seventh-Day Adventists in the early 20th century.

Many evangelicals in America believe that young earth creationism is the only authentically biblical position for Christians to hold on origins and that all Christians believed this until they started compromising with Darwin's theory of evolution. This is simply not true. Youngearth creationism is relatively new and as recently as a century ago even fundamentalist Christians saw little reason to reject evolution.

The fundamentalist movement takes its name from an ambitious project called The Fundamentals published between 1910 and 1915 by the Bible Institute of Los Angeles (now Biola) that defined the fundamentals of Christianity.  In response to modernist preachers and theologians who rejected many traditional Christian ideas, including miracles, the resurrection and the reality of heaven, the authors of the 90 tracts that became
The Fundamentalsaffirmed traditional biblical beliefs. The project was so successful that it produced an entire wing of Christianity, known as fundamentalism, which persists to this day.

The contributors to The Fundamentals were the leading conservative Christian leaders at the time, men like R. A. Torrey and A. C. Dixon, united in their belief in traditional doctrines like the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus, the reality of miracles and heaven, and God as the creator of everything. But they were not united in rejecting evolution as a mechanism of creation. And there was no rejection of the scientific research that indicated that the earth was far older than 10,000 years. 

The "Advent" of Scientific Creationism
The most consistent creationist voice at the beginning of the 20th century belonged to the new Seventh-day Adventist movement, which looked to the mid-nineteenth century prophetic writings of Ellen White for guidance. What we call young-earth creationism today—as promoted by Answers in Genesis,  Creation Ministries International, the Institute for Creation Researchand other groups—can be traced back to one of White's visions.
https://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/Giberson-scholarly-essay-1.pdf

and you know that as everyone else on these boards who can read does as well, if they were willing to view the evidence against this unfounded claim.

It's quite true, and is very well documented.    At the beginning of the 20th century, almost all fundamentalists were OE creationists.   That was the form of creationism presented at the Scopes Trial, for instance.   YE creationism is a very modern revision of Scripture.

Just exactly what are you saved from in Christ Jesus Barbarian, if death is not the result of sin,

God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree.   But Adam eats and lives on physically for many years thereafter.    If that "death" was a physical one, God did not tell the truth.   It was a spiritual death, which is what Christ came to save us from.   If he died to keep us from physical death, He failed.   We will all die someday.   But it wasn't a physical death, but a spiritual death.

Please do give us a coherent explanation of your gospel from the beginning including the evolution you claim the bible supports and or teaches.

Show me where I said the Bible teaches about evolution.   The Bible is silent about things like electricity, evolution, atoms, nuclear fusion, and the like.   The Bible is about God and man and our relationship.   If one reduces it to a science text, one loses the message completely.

Let God be God, and listen to what He's actually telling you.

[The Barbarian]

    Well, let's take a look...

    The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
    DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
    LUMEN GENTIUM
    SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
    POPE PAUL VI
    ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

The above does not address Christian Fundamentalists.

It does if Christian Fundamentalists "lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour."   My experience with them, is that the vast majority of them do.   So they do qualify as Christians as much as any other part of the Body of Christ.

There may be exceptions, but I don't think they are very common.   Most of them love God as much as Catholics or Anglicans or Eastern Orthodox Christians do.

[The Barbarian]

 

Yes, I would like to see what Calvin and Luther believed in relation to heliocentrism thank you.

Both Calvin and Luther rejected Copernicus as a heretic in the 16th century. I don't know anybody in orthodox Christianity today who's pleading for geocentricity. Do you? Do you know anybody? In that case the church has said, "Look, we misinterpreted the teaching of the Bible with respect to the solar system, and thank you scientists for correcting our misunderstanding."

And so I think that we can learn from nonbelieving scientists who are studying natural revelation. They may get a better sense of the truth from their study of natural revelation than I get from ignoring natural revelation. So I have a high view of natural revelation is what I'm saying.

In this section of his response, Dr. Sproul is reminding us that Christians in the past have believed erroneous ideas about the nature of God's creation because they believed those views were taught in Scripture. He specifically mentions geocentricity – the idea that the sun, moon, and stars all revolve around a stationary earth.

This understanding of the universe had been articulated most thoroughly by Ptolemy (ca. AD 90 – ca. AD 168) and had been accepted by Christians for fifteen hundred years because they believed it was taught in passages such as Joshua 10:12–14 and the many passages that refer to the sun's rising or setting. Like most Christians (and scientists) of their day, Martin Luther and John Calvin believed geocentrism to be a true description of God's creation.

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/luther-calvin-and-copernicus-reformed-approach-science-and-scripture/

There was mention of a certain astrologer who wanted to prove that the earth moves and not the sky, the sun, and the moon. This would be as if somebody were riding on a cart or in a ship and imagined that he was standing still while the earth and the trees were moving. [Luther remarked] "So it goes now. Whoever wants to be clever must agree with nothing that others esteem. He must do something of his own. This is what that fellow does who wishes to turn the whole of astronomy upside down. Even in these things that are thrown into disorder I believe the Holy Scriptures, for Joshua commanded the sun to stand still and not the earth [Jos. 10:12]."

Martin Luther

In the Catholic Church, to qualify as a doctrine of the Church, it must be either promulgated ex cathedra by the pope, or by the bishops in council.    Although there were clerics (like the ones who condemned Galileo) who asked that this be done, neither the bishops nor successive popes would do this.

And yes, Luther and Calvin were badly mistaken in their theology, just like the Catholic clerics who prosecuted  Galileo.   

But it never became a part of the teaching of the Catholic Church.

[tooldtocare]

from dust we came to dust we will return

[The Barbarian]

from dust we came to dust we will return

Like all animals, this is true.   But we are more than our bodies.

Tell me not, in mournful numbers,
   Life is but an empty dream!
For the soul is dead that slumbers,
   And things are not what they seem.

Life is real! Life is earnest!
   And the grave is not its goal;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
   Was not spoken of the soul.

Longfellow

[Amo]

In verse 17 God says, "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."  Amo, that is precisely what happened. They sinned; they died spiritually in that day; in that very instant. There is nothing there that says anything about their dying physically from eating the fruit.  In fact they lived, according to Scripture, hundreds more years.  None of that has anything to do with physical death. The two are totally unrelated.

And since you do not understand what God has said in Genesis 2:15-17 the rest of what you posted is simply all screwed up.  I could go through each of your points but since you do not understand the truth that physical death is a result of creation and spiritual death is a result of sin and the two are unrelated it would serve no purpose  --  you wouldn't understand.

Hogwash! The bible is filled with references from one end to the other people dying and death in relation to their physical death. The truth is the exact opposite if what you are espousing. It is physical death that the scriptures address the great majority of the time death is referred to, spiritual death is the exception which is usually identified as the same in the context of that being addressed. Please do supply the scriptures which state that death is the result of creation. This is a lie.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:...........................
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.).................................
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why did Jesus die literal death for our sins if the only death produced by sin is spiritual death? What was He saving us from by literally dying? If Creation produced death, then why do the above verses say sin produces death? Why doesn't Paul explain that he is only referring to spiritual death if that truly is the case?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If creation produces death, then why does scripture say sin produces death so often, and why are those who are new creations in Christ Jesus have eternal life? According to your false doctrine, all the saved n Christ Jesus who are new creatures in Him, should die since creation produces death. That's just silly.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

It is sin that works death within, not creation.

1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Did man create himself? No. Death came by or through man, not creation. Man sinned unto death, spiritual and literal. Your teaching is biblically unsound.

Jms 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


Sin brings forth or produces death, not creation. How many times and ways does scripture need to tell you this? Here we are, show us the scriptures which say God's creation brings forth death.

[Amo]

    Well, let's take a look...

    The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
    DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
    LUMEN GENTIUM
    SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
    POPE PAUL VI
    ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964


It does if Christian Fundamentalists "lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour."   My experience with them, is that the vast majority of them do.   So they do qualify as Christians as much as any other part of the Body of Christ.

There may be exceptions, but I don't think they are very common.   Most of them love God as much as Catholics or Anglicans or Eastern Orthodox Christians do.

So which of your Pope's is right, Pope Paul VI in 1964, or Pope Francis now?

[Amo]

In science we depend on evidence, not faith.   Creationism is faith in man's doctrines.   Science only deals in evidence.

Perhaps you haven't learned what evolution is.  What do you think it is?

Nope.  That's not it. 

It's not about what God says to Humanity, either.  As Everett Dirkson remarked, people are most often down on things they aren't up on.

I can show you whatever you'd like to challenge.

It was invented by the Seventh-Day Adventists in the early 20th century.

Many evangelicals in America believe that young earth creationism is the only authentically biblical position for Christians to hold on origins and that all Christians believed this until they started compromising with Darwin's theory of evolution. This is simply not true. Youngearth creationism is relatively new and as recently as a century ago even fundamentalist Christians saw little reason to reject evolution.

The fundamentalist movement takes its name from an ambitious project called The Fundamentals published between 1910 and 1915 by the Bible Institute of Los Angeles (now Biola) that defined the fundamentals of Christianity.  In response to modernist preachers and theologians who rejected many traditional Christian ideas, including miracles, the resurrection and the reality of heaven, the authors of the 90 tracts that became
The Fundamentalsaffirmed traditional biblical beliefs. The project was so successful that it produced an entire wing of Christianity, known as fundamentalism, which persists to this day.

The contributors to The Fundamentals were the leading conservative Christian leaders at the time, men like R. A. Torrey and A. C. Dixon, united in their belief in traditional doctrines like the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus, the reality of miracles and heaven, and God as the creator of everything. But they were not united in rejecting evolution as a mechanism of creation. And there was no rejection of the scientific research that indicated that the earth was far older than 10,000 years. 

The "Advent" of Scientific Creationism
The most consistent creationist voice at the beginning of the 20th century belonged to the new Seventh-day Adventist movement, which looked to the mid-nineteenth century prophetic writings of Ellen White for guidance. What we call young-earth creationism today—as promoted by Answers in Genesis,  Creation Ministries International, the Institute for Creation Researchand other groups—can be traced back to one of White's visions.
https://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/Giberson-scholarly-essay-1.pdf

It's quite true, and is very well documented.    At the beginning of the 20th century, almost all fundamentalists were OE creationists.   That was the form of creationism presented at the Scopes Trial, for instance.   YE creationism is a very modern revision of Scripture.

God told Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree.   But Adam eats and lives on physically for many years thereafter.    If that "death" was a physical one, God did not tell the truth.   It was a spiritual death, which is what Christ came to save us from.   If he died to keep us from physical death, He failed.   We will all die someday.   But it wasn't a physical death, but a spiritual death.

Show me where I said the Bible teaches about evolution.   The Bible is silent about things like electricity, evolution, atoms, nuclear fusion, and the like.   The Bible is about God and man and our relationship.   If one reduces it to a science text, one loses the message completely.

Let God be God, and listen to what He's actually telling you.

Same rubbish over and over. Your scientists are not God, what they say is not what God is telling anyone. Bible believing Jews and Christians have believed in the six day creation recorded in Genesis all throughout their histories.

[4WD]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:...........................
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.).................................
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why do you "original sin types" always emphasize the first half of those sentences when it is the second half that Paul emphasized?

What Paul is pointing out there that whatever you think was the result of Adam's disobedience, Jesus' obedience nullified it.  Whatever you think was the result of one man's offence, MUCH MORE was the result of one man's obedience.  If original sin was to be the result of Adam's disobedience, the it was negated by Jesus' obedience.

Rom 5:18  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Do you not understand that this sets aside any thought of original sin or total depravity.  What Jesus did, among other things, was establish original grace.  This passage does not speak of the effect of your sins, Amo; it is speaking about the effect of Adam's sin which Paul says was completely set aside.

Paul then proceeds, in chapter 6, to describe how the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus death can effect your sins.

The bible is filled with references from one end to the other people dying and death in relation to their physical death. The truth is the exact opposite if what you are espousing. It is physical death that the scriptures address the great majority of the time death is referred to, spiritual death is the exception which is usually identified as the same in the context of that being addressed. Please do supply the scriptures which state that death is the result of creation. This is a lie.

You are probably correct that most of the time that death is spoken of in the Bible, it is speaking of physical death.  But when speaking of the effects death in relation sin, it is almost always speaking of spiritual death:   "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked...." (Eph 2:1-2).

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23) Clearly here Paul is comparing spiritual death and spiritual life.  For if the death that Paul is speaking about here is physical death, then by the same argument, the eternal life must be a physical one.  And we know that is not the case: "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" (1 Cor 15:50).

[Michael2012]

In science we depend on evidence, not faith.   

That reveals a lot. In science, you depend on evidence, not faith. This common saying comes to mind "to see is to believe". And this seems to be the motto of the worldly, opposite to what I'd say is for the heavenly, that is, "to believe is to see".

[4WD]

That reveals a lot. In science, you depend on evidence, not faith. This common saying comes to mind "to see is to believe". And this seems to be the motto of the worldly, opposite to what I'd say is for the heavenly, that is, "to believe is to see".

Yes, but the universe is not the heavenly.  And things of the universe are not the heavenly.  With respect to the physical, your "to believe is to see" gave us Earth, Wind, Fire and Water of ancient Greece as the four major elements.

[Amo]

Why do you "original sin types" always emphasize the first half of those sentences when it is the second half that Paul emphasized?

What Paul is pointing out there that whatever you think was the result of Adam's disobedience, Jesus' obedience nullified it.  Whatever you think was the result of one man's offence, MUCH MORE was the result of one man's obedience.  If original sin was to be the result of Adam's disobedience, the it was negated by Jesus' obedience.

Rom 5:18  So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Do you not understand that this sets aside any thought of original sin or total depravity.  What Jesus did, among other things, was establish original grace.  This passage does not speak of the effect of your sins, Amo; it is speaking about the effect of Adam's sin which Paul says was completely set aside.

Paul then proceeds, in chapter 6, to describe how the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus death can effect your sins.

You are probably correct that most of the time that death is spoken of in the Bible, it is speaking of physical death.  But when speaking of the effects death in relation sin, it is almost always speaking of spiritual death:   "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked...." (Eph 2:1-2).

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23) Clearly here Paul is comparing spiritual death and spiritual life.  For if the death that Paul is speaking about here is physical death, then by the same argument, the eternal life must be a physical one.  And we know that is not the case: "Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable" (1 Cor 15:50).

I'm not debating original sin, or total depravity. You are correct that what Jesus did nullified what Adam did, but you are incorrect concerning the timing of what he did, and the type of death He saved humanity from.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do you really believe that Adam and Eve's sin, caught God by surprise or off guard? To the contrary, this world was created and chosen by God as the place where the rebellion which began in heaven would be played out revealing both the mystery of Godliness, and the mystery of iniquity.

The plan of salvation was laid from the foundation of the world. Nor was there ever a time when God did not know, anticipate, and prepare for it. The only reason Adam and Eve did not literally die when they disobeyed God, was because the plan was already in place from eternity. They were saved from literal death which is death of body, soul, and spirit because Jesus Christ was and is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of this world.

1 Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Humanity was and is saved from literal death of body, soul, and spirit in Christ Jesus not as an afterthought or reaction to sin, but according to God's eternal purpose in and through Christ Jesus our Lord and King. The second death that all whose names are not written in the book of life will die is indeed this death which God said would occur if Adam and Eve disobeyed Him. The devil denied this, which you and countless others deny with him as well to this very day. The probationary time allotted to humanity in and through the salvation provided by our Lord Jesus Christ, is for the sole purpose of choosing life or death. Immortality is the gift of God to the saved, not the natural condition of humanities bodies, souls, or spirits. The wicked will perish, body, soul, and spirit. All who teach and preach otherwise are promoting the teachings of the evil one's first lie to humanity in defiance of God's word.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Your use of 1 Cor 15:50 to deny Paul is speaking of the literal death of body, soul, and spirit, in Rom 6:23 is a despicable example of taring scripture out of context to support ones own views. Our natural sinful and perishable bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God, this is exactly why we are raised with new spiritual bodies unto eternal life. There is a natural corrupted body, and there is a spiritual body. Jesus came to crucify the former, that all who choose to be in Him might inherit the latter. Go back and read that entire chapter, and then tell yourself Paul is only speaking of spiritual death and resurrection. Take the scriptures as a whole brother, stop hand picking verses which support what you want to believe when taken out of their original context, and submit to the original context and the rest of scripture as a whole.

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Please stop changing the original intent and meaning of Paul's words unto your own desires, this is not spiritually healthy at all.

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Did our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ rise as a spirit without a body that could be seen and felt? No He did not, and neither will we. Did He come just to die a spiritual death, no He did not, He came to die the literal death of body, soul, and spirit which sin demands. He came to taste death for every man, and that death included body, soul, and spirit. He was raised from the dead for every man, and that resurrection included body, soul, and spirit. Please stop denying scripture after scripture after scripture to support your own unbiblical views. This is very unhealthy, and you do it right from the beginning regarding creation, life, death, and sin throughout into the NT. Why will you deny the literal death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and those of His followers as well?

Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

[4WD]

I'm not debating original sin, or total depravity. You are correct that what Jesus did nullified what Adam did, but you are incorrect concerning the timing of what he did, and the type of death He saved humanity from.

I hate to rain on your parade but you will not be saved from physical death.  You will die, unless Jesus returns before that happens.

Do you really believe that Adam and Eve's sin, caught God by surprise or off guard?

No, of course not.  And I have never said that nor ever suggested that.

The plan of salvation was laid from the foundation of the world. Nor was there ever a time when God did not know, anticipate, and prepare for it. The only reason Adam and Eve did not literally die when they disobeyed God, was because the plan was already in place from eternity. They were saved from literal death which is death of body, soul, and spirit because Jesus Christ was and is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of this world.

Sorry, but Adam was not saved from the death of the body.  Gen_5:5  So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.


1 Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Humanity was and is saved from literal death of body, soul, and spirit in Christ Jesus not as an afterthought or reaction to sin, but according to God's eternal purpose in and through Christ Jesus our Lord and King. The second death that all whose names are not written in the book of life will die is indeed this death which God said would occur if Adam and Eve disobeyed Him. The devil denied this, which you and countless others deny with him as well to this very day. The probationary time allotted to humanity in and through the salvation provided by our Lord Jesus Christ, is for the sole purpose of choosing life or death. Immortality is the gift of God to the saved, not the natural condition of humanities bodies, souls, or spirits. The wicked will perish, body, soul, and spirit. All who teach and preach otherwise are promoting the teachings of the evil one's first lie to humanity in defiance of God's word.

That is just plain weird; as is all the rest of that poppy cock.

But quite frankly so much of what you post here is little more than wild imagination.

[The Barbarian]

So which of your Pope's is right, Pope Paul VI in 1964, or Pope Francis now?

They are in agreement on the doctrine expressed herein:
The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
    DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
    LUMEN GENTIUM
    SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
    POPE PAUL VI
    ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

[The Barbarian]

The plan of salvation was laid from the foundation of the world. Nor was there ever a time when God did not know, anticipate, and prepare for it. The only reason Adam and Eve did not literally die when they disobeyed God, was because the plan was already in place from eternity. They were saved from literal death which is death of body, soul, and spirit because Jesus Christ was and is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of this world.

Sorry, but Adam was not saved from the death of the body.  Gen_5:5  So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I hesitate to call that a stupid statement because to do so will be seen as too harsh and demeaning.  But in truth that is precisely what it is.  God's word is indeed truth.  But to say that God's word is the only truth is simply wrong.  There are many things that are true and there are many truths that simply are not in God's word at all. For example prove from the Bible that the planet Mars exists; or prove that there is any planet in the entire universe except the earth.  Or prove that water is just H₂O, or that there is even such a thing as a molecule of water.

Ah... the sweetness of belief in self.  I recall it well but the end there-of is so bitter and except YHWH breaks a Man's pride as a potter crushing an ugly, unprofitable vessel and remaking it/him, there can be no profit and certainly, no man can effect any change thereof.

[4WD]

Ah... the sweetness of belief in self.  I recall it well but the end there-of is so bitter and except YHWH breaks a Man's pride as a potter crushing an ugly, unprofitable vessel and remaking it/him, there can be no profit and certainly, no man can effect any change thereof.

So it is true; you do not think that Mars exists.  Interesting. And you don't believe there are such things as molecules.  Also interesting.  And it all tells us quite a bit about th1b.taylor; probably doesn't have a very good grasp of the world around him and perhaps not a very good grasp of much else either.

[th1b.taylor]

So it is true; you do not think that Mars exists.  Interesting. And you don't believe there are such things as molecules.  Also interesting.  And it all tells us quite a bit about th1b.taylor; probably doesn't have a very good grasp of the world around him and perhaps not a very good grasp of much else either.

My only response here is why would you be so anxious to propose to press forward three such stark ad obvious Satanic Lies?  Are you perhaps ill?  Before this I have3 detected no signs of insanity, what's wrong and why do you see text that is not there and is not only lies but was never imagine3d by any saqne and logical thinking person.  Or can I deduce you are following your god the god of this world?  I pray not.

[4WD]

Or can I deduce ......?

You seem incapable of truthfully or accurately deducing anything.

[Amo]

  I hate to rain on your parade but you will not be saved from physical death.  You will die, unless Jesus returns before that happens.

No, of course not.  And I have never said that nor ever suggested that.

The plan of salvation was laid from the foundation of the world. Nor was there ever a time when God did not know, anticipate, and prepare for it. The only reason Adam and Eve did not literally die when they disobeyed God, was because the plan was already in place from eternity. They were saved from literal death which is death of body, soul, and spirit because Jesus Christ was and is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of this world.

Sorry, but Adam was not saved from the death of the body.  Gen_5:5  So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.


1 Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That is just plain weird; as is all the rest of that poppy cock.

But quite frankly so much of what you post here is little more than wild imagination.

Yes, you certainly are a master of the obvious. You are the one denying physical death here, not me. I care nothing for your child or reverse psychology. Nevertheless, I understand your need to support your arguments with faulty premise, seeing they are all built upon the same. You are faulty, God's word is not. You should lean a lot more on latter and a lot less on the former.

Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

All of humanity is on probation. As sin brought death upon humanity through Adam, so righteousness brought justification and life upon humanity through Christ Jesus our lord. Now all must choose between the two in this life before they die as appointed due to sin, then they will face judgment. All will be raised, some unto the resurrection of life, others to the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is not rocket science, or overly complicated. It only becomes increasingly complicated as deception and self get in the way of and begin to take priority over the testimony of the word of God. Humanity was not created to die, thus the tree of life. Sin brought death through disobedience, thus humanities removal from access to the tree of life.

Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

How does the above testimony fit in with your self inspired spiritual death alone theory? If humanity would have lived forever even in sin if they continued to have access to the tree of life, then how could death have been part of the original plan as your self inspiration dictates? I know, just more of the ever increasing scriptural testimony you must reject and or ignore to believe as you wish. 

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The saved will have eternal life once again, for they will have the right to eat from the tree of life once again. The wicked though, will die the second death in the lake of fire. Sin produces death, and they chose sin over justification in and through the righteousness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you really think you can spend your entire life contradicting the testimony of Jesus and God's word in defense of  the word of "Scientists" and then walk into heaven and partake of the tree of life? I think, you should think again.

Mt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Is your theory of evolution the word of God above scripture? To the contrary, the theory requires that you deny or ignore large amounts of scripture. The creation account backed up by the fourth commandment, the entrance of death due to sin, that death being real and literal not just spiritual, the tree of life no doubt, the global flood assuredly, just to name a few. Denying all of these of course ends up denying much more scriptural testimony in relation to the same, increasingly nullifying the effect of the testimony of the word of God. Such could hardly it seems, be said to exemplify living "by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God". Unless of course evolutionary scientists testimony is the word of God. Do you consider their words, the word of God?

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

[4WD]

As sin brought death upon humanity through Adam, so righteousness brought justification and life upon humanity through Christ Jesus our lord.

First, Amo, sin brings spiritual death, not physical death.  Second. you ascribe sin and death to all humanity through Adam, do you similarly ascribe justification and life upon all humanity through Christ?  I suspect not.  For obviously you think that Adam's sin has a much more profound effect upon humanity than did Christ's righteousness.  'Tis a real pity.

[4WD]

Do you really think you can spend your entire life contradicting the testimony of Jesus and God's word in defense of  the word of "Scientists" and then walk into heaven and partake of the tree of life? I think, you should think again.

Spoken like the one who thinks that he is Jesus' surrogate judge; really pathetic that anyone should think so highly of himself.  But apparently you do. 

[th1b.taylor]

You seem incapable of truthfully or accurately deducing anything.

WOW!  The Spirit of Hate and Lying is powerful here today with you and the only Mod I can recall posting here.  I ask a responsible question of you and you, immediately slap me with a Satanic response.  You are in serious need of Spiritual Inventory, a thing that only you can do for yourself but the Liar's/Hater's Spirit is great here today.

[th1b.taylor]

Spoken like the one who thinks that he is Jesus' surrogate judge; really pathetic that anyone should think so highly of himself.  But apparently you do.

Not at all true!  He has read Matthew 7:1 and continued  to read that he might never rape scripture by forcing verse  one into the bed the world forces it into.  Again, I pray you do a Personal Spiritual Inventory instead of reporting me for some imagined slap.

[4WD]

WOW!  The Spirit of Hate and Lying is powerful here today with you and the only Mod I can recall posting here.  I ask a responsible question of you and you, immediately slap me with a Satanic response.  You are in serious need of Spiritual Inventory, a thing that only you can do for yourself but the Liar's/Hater's Spirit is great here today.

You accuse me of idolatry and then think my reaction concerning your deductive abilities or lack thereof is from "the Spirit of Hate and Lying"??  You have got to be joking.  Either that or you are one of the more self-righteous persons to show up here in a while.