Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[The Barbarian]

    Barbarian observes:
    He gave us minds and curiosity to find out some of that for ourselves.

That's your opinion

Barbarian observes:
Being a Christian is not an opinion.   It's a faith.   However, it's not debatable as to whether or not we have the mind and curiosity to find out things for ourselves.   It's obviously true.   If you're claiming God didn't give those to us, who did?

As I said, your statement that God gave us minds and curiosity to find out some of that for ourselves, is your opinion. The matter that some have such mind and curiosity on how God created the universe, does not necessarily mean that such mind and curiosity was given by God. Where then can this mind and curiosity come from? I'd say it most probably come from the man.

God gives us our abilities.   

and feeling I have to say, not mine. I don't see God saying anything of that in scriptures either.

Barbarian asks:
    I don't see God saying anything about giving us electricity in scripture, either.   Do you have a point, and if so, who did give us electricity?

What I do see is that, what was later called electricity, is included in the things that God had created.

Like life on Earth.   My point exactly.

In scriptures, that would be inclusive in the "all things" that God created.

But as you see, He explicitly says that He created living things from nature.   Those are inclusive in "all things" too.

So what is your point in mentioning electricity?

So you understood that God didn't list everything He created.

[4WD]

Barbarian,

That God used nature to create life is an oxymoron.  The term create when used in connection with God is almost universally reserved for creation ex nihilo.

[Michael2012]

Quote
On your statement "And since He tells us He used nature to create life in the first place, I know that, too.", I would have to object.   God did not create life Sir, much less, created life using nature.

He says that He did:

Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [22] And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth. [23] And the evening and morning were the fifth day. [24] And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done. [25] And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

[26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them. [28] And God blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and all living creatures that move upon the earth. [29] And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed upon the earth, and all trees that have in themselves seed of their own kind, to be your meat: [30] And to all beasts of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to all that move upon the earth, and wherein there is life, that they may have to feed upon. And it was so done.

So, that's what He says.   Unless you are referring to a different god than my God who is revealed in the Bible.

What God created as mentioned in the passages you cited are living things. So God created living things, different from saying that God created life.

My God does not create life. Rather He gives life. 

[4WD]

My God does not create life. Rather He gives life.

And your spirit  --  Is that created?

[Michael2012]

    Barbarian observes:
    He gave us minds and curiosity to find out some of that for ourselves.

Quote
That's your opinion

Barbarian observes:
Being a Christian is not an opinion.   It's a faith.   However, it's not debatable as to whether or not we have the mind and curiosity to find out things for ourselves.   It's obviously true.   If you're claiming God didn't give those to us, who did?

Quote
As I said, your statement that God gave us minds and curiosity to find out some of that for ourselves, is your opinion. The matter that some have such mind and curiosity on how God created the universe, does not necessarily mean that such mind and curiosity was given by God. Where then can this mind and curiosity come from? I'd say it most probably come from the man.

God gives us our abilities. 

Yes He does. But what the natural man does comes from the man.

Man's curiosity comes from the man.

Quote
and feeling I have to say, not mine. I don't see God saying anything of that in scriptures either.

Barbarian asks:
    I don't see God saying anything about giving us electricity in scripture, either.   Do you have a point, and if so, who did give us electricity?

Quote
What I do see is that, what was later called electricity, is included in the things that God had created.

Like life on Earth.   My point exactly.

No Sir. As I said my God does not create life, rather He gives it. Life is inherent in my God. That is why I said, perhaps your god is different from my God.

In scriptures, that would be inclusive in the "all things" that God created.

But as you see, He explicitly says that He created living things from nature.   Those are inclusive in "all things" too.

Yes He created living things from out of the ground. But that is different from what you said, that is, He created life.

So what is your point in mentioning electricity?

So you understood that God didn't list everything He created.

Is that all of your point? Well, you don't have to go the matter of electricity just to point that out.

Apparently you failed to show that God gave man, minds and curiosity to find out how He created all things, and that He wanted us to find out.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 08:54:56
My God does not create life. Rather He gives life.

And your spirit  --  Is that created?

No. It is given.

[4WD]

And your spirit  --  Is that created?


No. It is given.

Where did it come from?

[Amo]

There are few who post here who slice and dice the testimony to fit their own model that you, Amo, beginning with any adherence to the false teachings of Ellen G. White.

No one here has referred to or quoted EGW at all, save you now of course, since you are unable to refute the plain testimony of scripture. Now you wish to bring EGW into the conversation as a diversionary tactic I suppose. Start another thread regarding the same, so as not to hijack this one, and I will gladly address your accusations.

If your suggesting EGW originated the biblical teaching that humanity has been given a limited time to make their one and most critical decision in life, you give her far to much credit. The gospel message is for the exact purpose of bringing people to the point making this most critical decision of their lives with eternal consequences. When this gospel shall be preached in all the world, the end will come. These are not EGW's words or testimony.

Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Humanities probation will end when the gospel has been preached to every nation, kindred, and tongue. This is the testimony of Jesus Christ and His holy scriptures. Your argument is again, against the holy scriptures, not me, or EGW, or anyone else for that matter.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 09:30:51
And your spirit  --  Is that created?


No. It is given.

Where did it come from?

God

[4WD]

Where did it come from?


God

And where did He get it?

[4WD]

Humanities probation will end when the gospel has been preached to every nation, kindred, and tongue. This is the testimony of Jesus Christ and His holy scriptures. Your argument is again, against the holy scriptures, not me, or EGW, or anyone else for that matter.

I have never argued one way or another about humanity's probation ending. You're obviously confused.

[geronimo]

Just have a question.
At what point in history, did God's Creation become limited to mans knowledge of what exists?

[RB]

Just have a question.  At what point in history, did God's Creation become limited to mans knowledge of what exists?

At the fall of man! And from there it went downhill. These many posts prove it.

2392 Replies
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[Alan]

Just have a question.
At what point in history, did God's Creation become limited to mans knowledge of what exists?

Loaded question. When we see things like "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.", we begin to understand that some passages in the Bible are simply not meant to be taken literally. There exists absolutely no conflict between creation and science if we simply allow science to reveal God's creation. The determination of a YEC is most definitely a man made concept, so the answer to your question differs between each man's understanding of creation, the only ones that translate the Genesis account into a hard and fast rule are the religious advocates that only assume their understanding is the correct understanding. 

[Amo]

I have never argued one way or another about humanity's probation ending. You're obviously confused.

Since you accused me of preaching EGW instead of scripture after posts concerning humanities probation, I presumed this is what you were referring to. My bad. What were you referring to? Or was this just a blanket statement without any real specific detail and therefore purpose, other than distraction or insult?

[4WD]

My bad.

I'll accept that.

[The Barbarian]

 Even YE creationists admit that God creates life.   Their argument is that He did it from nothing.   The Bible says He created it from other created things.

[The Barbarian]

Loaded question. When we see things like "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.", we begin to understand that some passages in the Bible are simply not meant to be taken literally. There exists absolutely no conflict between creation and science if we simply allow science to reveal God's creation. The determination of a YEC is most definitely a man made concept, so the answer to your question differs between each man's understanding of creation, the only ones that translate the Genesis account into a hard and fast rule are the religious advocates that only assume their understanding is the correct understanding. 

Right.  Neither YE creationism, or any other belief about how God created life, is Christian orthodoxy.    Christians disagree about this, unless they try to make their personal interpretation into the Word of God, they are at no risk of losing their salvation from those beliefs.

Since God created all things, life is another of His creations.   In this world, He uses nature to create it.

[Michael2012]

4WD:
And your spirit  --  Is that created?

Michael:
No. It is given.

4WD:
Where did it come from?

Michael:
God

4WD:
And where did He get it?

Michael:
God is the source of it.

[Michael2012]

Even YE creationists admit that God creates life.   Their argument is that He did it from nothing.   The Bible says He created it from other created things.

As I said my God does not create life, rather He gives it. Life is inherent in my God. He is the source, not creator of it.

[4WD]

4WD:
And your spirit  --  Is that created?

Michael:
No. It is given.

4WD:
Where did it come from?

Michael:
God

4WD:
And where did He get it?

Michael:
God is the source of it.

That is pure gobbledeegook.  God is the source of everything; therefore by your reasoning, God hasn't created anything.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Today at 10:53:44
4WD:
And your spirit  --  Is that created?

Michael:
No. It is given.

4WD:
Where did it come from?

Michael:
God

4WD:
And where did He get it?

Michael:
God is the source of it.

That is pure gobbledeegook.  God is the source of everything; therefore by your reasoning, God hasn't created anything.

When I say God is the "source" of it, I mean to refer of something that comes from God and not something that God created or made. For example, God is the source of life. God does not create life. It is already there for the imparting and giving. That goes as well concerning the spirit.

Of course God created everything. Everything that which originally did not exist.

[4WD]

When I say God is the "source" of it, I mean to refer of something that comes from God and not something that God created or made. For example, God is the source of life. God does not create life. It is already there for the imparting and giving. That goes as well concerning the spirit.

Of course God created everything. Everything that which originally did not exist.

More gobbledeegook.  That doesn't even make sense.  Angels are spirit.  Were they already there for the imparting and giving?  No, of course not.  God created angels.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 00:32:23
When I say God is the "source" of it, I mean to refer of something that comes from God and not something that God created or made. For example, God is the source of life. God does not create life. It is already there for the imparting and giving. That goes as well concerning the spirit.

Of course God created everything. Everything that which originally did not exist.

gobbledeegook.  That doesn't even make sense.  Angels are spirit.  Were they already there for the imparting and giving?  No, of course not.  God created angels.

gobbledeegook for you, not for me. Does not make sense to you, but not to me.

Yes angels are spirit, but spirit are not angels. What God created are angels, not the spirit.

[AVZ]

Of course God created everything. Everything that which originally did not exist.

Weird statement.
Nothing existed originally, so God created everything period.

[4WD]

gobbledeegook for you, not for me. Does not make sense to you, but not to me.

Yes angels are spirit, but spirit are not angels. What God created are angels, not the spirit.

Now that really is gobbledeegook.  Where do spirits come from if not created by God?

[Amo]

I'll accept that.

Of course you will,  but will you answer the question?

[Amo]

Even YE creationists admit that God creates life.   Their argument is that He did it from nothing.   The Bible says He created it from other created things.

Book, chapter, and verse please.

[Amo]

Right.  Neither YE creationism, or any other belief about how God created life, is Christian orthodoxy.    Christians disagree about this, unless they try to make their personal interpretation into the Word of God, they are at no risk of losing their salvation from those beliefs.

Since God created all things, life is another of His creations.   In this world, He uses nature to create it.

Right, no one can actually understand scripture, so it doesn't matter what anyone believes as long as they don't try to make that belief God's word they are OK. So everyone is saved no matter what they believe as long as they don't preach that their word or belief is God's word. Yea that's the ticket.

For God so loved the world that He gave us His word that all might make it mean whatever they wish, that all might be saved by whatever they believed.

[Amo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1904&v=7Wr-lXLGCxQ

Interesting video. Apparently it is to only YE creationists that serious problems with the theory of evolution.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Yesterday at 23:42:48
gobbledeegook for you, not for me. Does not make sense to you, but not to me.

Yes angels are spirit, but spirit are not angels. What God created are angels, not the spirit.

Now that really is gobbledeegook.  Where do spirits come from if not created by God?

No sir. But yes again for you.

Now, in your question, if by "spirits" you are referring to angelic beings, my answer to your question is that they did not come from God, but that God created them into being.

Now, we are told that angels are spirit in nature, as contrasted to man, whose nature is material flesh. My question to you is this, do angels have a body, a spirit, a soul?

But let's go back to man. God created man. From Genesis 2:7, we are told how God created man. And by that we know the nature of man, that is, flesh, spirit, and soul. Flesh was made and formed of the dust of the ground. With regards the spirit, what do you say concerning it? That God created it? Scriptures says that God gives spirit to the man, forms it within the man. With regards the soul, what do you say concerning it? In my understanding, this is the person of man. Scriptures says when Adam was created, "and man became a living soul". The soul is that which was created into being from out of nothing, while the flesh was not, and more so, the spirit was not.

[Michael2012]

Right.  Neither YE creationism, or any other belief about how God created life, is Christian orthodoxy.    Christians disagree about this, unless they try to make their personal interpretation into the Word of God, they are at no risk of losing their salvation from those beliefs.

Since God created all things, life is another of His creations.   In this world, He uses nature to create it.

I think Barbarian the scientist, is mistaken here that life is created by God.

Let's take the case of man. God created man, not life. The life in the man, so that he lives, was not created by God but was given by God.

The Christian scientist evolutionists claim they know how God created man, that is, as they say by using nature which they called and say "by evolution". However, Christians can go to God's words in scriptures. For in scriptures, we are told how God created man. And doing so, we know the nature of man, that is, flesh, spirit, and soul. Flesh was formed of the dust of the ground by God. To the Christian scientist evolutionist, this is perhaps what they claim that God had done by evolution. But the man is not all material body, so that, in the creation of man, it does not stop there. But of course the scientist cannot, by science, know about the spirit, as well as about the soul. So, Christian scientists, really should not claim that they know how God created man by science, when they admit that science only deals with the physical creation of God.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Right.  Neither YE creationism, or any other belief about how God created life, is Christian orthodoxy.    Christians disagree about this, unless they try to make their personal interpretation into the Word of God, they are at no risk of losing their salvation from those beliefs.

Since God created all things, life is another of His creations.   In this world, He uses nature to create it.

Amo presents his beliefs:

Right, no one can actually understand scripture, so it doesn't matter what anyone believes as long as they don't try to make that belief God's word they are OK. So everyone is saved no matter what they believe as long as they don't preach that their word or belief is God's word. Yea that's the ticket.

I think you're wrong about this.    Yes, no one fully understands scripture.   As Paul says:

1 Corinthians 13:12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known.

Creationists aren't going to hell for refusing to accept God's word about creation.   That's not a salvation issue.   Theology won't save you.   What is in your heart saves you.    Loving God and loving your fellow man will save you.

Are non-believers going to hell?    What does Jesus say? 

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.   

Romans 2:13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

[Amo]

Barbarian observes:
Right.  Neither YE creationism, or any other belief about how God created life, is Christian orthodoxy.    Christians disagree about this, unless they try to make their personal interpretation into the Word of God, they are at no risk of losing their salvation from those beliefs.

Since God created all things, life is another of His creations.   In this world, He uses nature to create it.

Amo presents his beliefs:
I think you're wrong about this.    Yes, no one fully understands scripture.   As Paul says:

1 Corinthians 13:12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known.

Creationists aren't going to hell for refusing to accept God's word about creation.   That's not a salvation issue.   Theology won't save you.   What is in your heart saves you.    Loving God and loving your fellow man will save you.

Are non-believers going to hell?    What does Jesus say? 

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 25:31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.   

Romans 2:13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

No, that is just the way you interpret it Barbarian. According to your own exemplified standard, any and all are free to claim that is just your interpretation and believe otherwise without any effect upon their salvation. Nor do they need to explain what the verses you shared really do mean in contrast to your false claim of what they mean because of your faulty interpretation. Not according to your exemplified standard regarding creation and the flood in any case.

[Michael2012]

Loving God and loving your fellow man will save you.

No Sir. That is not what saves. It is God that saves. Loving God and fellow man is the result of God's salvation of one, not the ticket. It is what a child of God does, and not what one can and should do for him to become a child of God.