Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[RB]

So perhaps you could tell us what you think is the meaning of "And there was evening and there was morning, one day", when until day four there is neither sun nor moon.  What is evening and morning without the sun. What is it, specifically, that you think God is telling you?

God holds within HIMSELF infinite power of LIGHT, that is greater than the sun and moon could ever give forth. Those only show a glimpse of what he has WITHIN HIMSELF. Calvin states it very well himself.

Let there be light~"It we proper that the light, by means of which the world was to be adorned with such excellent beauty, should be first created; and this also was the commencement of the distinction, (among the creatures. 20) It did not, however, happen from inconsideration or by accident, (that 4WD believes...RB) that the light preceded the sun and the moon. To nothing are we more prone than to tie down the power of God to those instruments the agency of which he employs. The sun an moon supply us with light: And, according to our notions we so include this power to give light in them, that if they were taken away from the world, it would seem impossible for any light to remain. Therefore the Lord, by the very order of the creation, bears witness that he holds in his hand the light, which he is able to impart to us without the sun and moon. Further, it is certain from the context, that the light was so created as to be interchanged with darkness. But it may be asked, whether light and darkness succeeded each other in turn through the whole circuit of the world; or whether the darkness occupied one half of the circle, while light shone in the other. There is, however, no doubt that the order of their succession was alternate, but whether it was everywhere day at the same time, and everywhere night also, I would rather leave undecided; nor is it very necessary to be known." Emphasis are mine~RB

What is it, specifically, that you think God is telling you? That His power is NOT limited to having LIGHT within Himself GREATER than the sun that he created gives forth.

[Alan]

God holds within HIMSELF infinite power of LIGHT, that is greater than the sun and moon could ever give forth. Those only show a glimpse of what he has WITHIN HIMSELF. Calvin states it very well himself.

Let there be light~"It we proper that the light, by means of which the world was to be adorned with such excellent beauty, should be first created; and this also was the commencement of the distinction, (among the creatures. 20) It did not, however, happen from inconsideration or by accident, that the light preceded the sun and the moon. To nothing are we more prone than to tie down the power of God to those instruments the agency of which he employs. The sun an moon supply us with light: And, according to our notions we so include this power to give light in them, that if they were taken away from the world, it would seem impossible for any light to remain. Therefore the Lord, by the very order of the creation, bears witness that he holds in his hand the light, which he is able to impart to us without the sun and moon. Further, it is certain from the context, that the light was so created as to be interchanged with darkness. But it may be asked, whether light and darkness succeeded each other in turn through the whole circuit of the world; or whether the darkness occupied one half of the circle, while light shone in the other. There is, however, no doubt that the order of their succession was alternate, but whether it was everywhere day at the same time, and everywhere night also, I would rather leave undecided; nor is it very necessary to be known."

What is it, specifically, that you think God is telling you? That His power is NOT limited to having LIGHT within Himself GREATER than the sun that he created gives forth.

Then what would the purpose of giving us the sun and the moon actually be? If the attributes necessary to perfectly sustain life were created before these bodies were placed into our solar system then why are they there? Today we fully understand that our relative distance from the sun is the determining factor of our climate, did God pass the baton at some point to give us a source of light and heat?

[4WD]

God holds within HIMSELF infinite power of LIGHT, that is greater than the sun and moon could ever give forth. Those only show a glimpse of what he has WITHIN HIMSELF. Calvin states it very well himself.

Let there be light~"It we proper that the light, by means of which the world was to be adorned with such excellent beauty, should be first created; and this also was the commencement of the distinction, (among the creatures. 20) It did not, however, happen from inconsideration or by accident, that the light preceded the sun and the moon. To nothing are we more prone than to tie down the power of God to those instruments the agency of which he employs. The sun an moon supply us with light: And, according to our notions we so include this power to give light in them, that if they were taken away from the world, it would seem impossible for any light to remain. Therefore the Lord, by the very order of the creation, bears witness that he holds in his hand the light, which he is able to impart to us without the sun and moon. Further, it is certain from the context, that the light was so created as to be interchanged with darkness. But it may be asked, whether light and darkness succeeded each other in turn through the whole circuit of the world; or whether the darkness occupied one half of the circle, while light shone in the other. There is, however, no doubt that the order of their succession was alternate, but whether it was everywhere day at the same time, and everywhere night also, I would rather leave undecided; nor is it very necessary to be known."

What is it, specifically, that you think God is telling you? That His power is NOT limited to having LIGHT within Himself GREATER than the sun that he created gives forth.

That you would pose that as the answer to my question and then castigate me for thinking that "day" in that same verse might not mean 24 hours is actually hilarious. 

I think that it would not be possible to give a more metaphorical description of "light" than you presented there.  But then you will turn around and tell me that the creation "day" must be treated as absolutely literal; it can't possibly be anything other than a 24-hour day.

Seriously, what a joke.  You insist that the Genesis account of creation be taken as literal.  But of course you don't do that.  You take what you want to be literal and what you want to be figurative.  And that quite arbitrarily  -- "day" must be literal, but "light" must be figurative.

Again, what a joke.  As is the whole Young Earth Creation rendering of the Genesis account of creation.

[RB]

Then what would the purpose of giving us the sun and the moon actually be? If the attributes necessary to perfectly sustain life were created before these bodies were placed into our solar system then why are they there? Today we fully understand that our relative distance from the sun is the determining factor of our climate, did God pass the baton at some point to give us a source of light and heat?

Your obviously did not read what I said~I never said the attributes necessary to perfectly sustain life were created before these bodies...God had that LIGHT dwelling WITHIN HIMSELF....He THEN created the sun and moon and stars.

[4WD]

God had that LIGHT dwelling WITHIN HIMSELF....He THEN created the sun and moon and stars.

Another metaphorical rendering.  And not a very good one.  What?  God has photons dwelling withing Himself??  What can that possibly even mean?

[Alan]

Your obviously did not read what I said~I never said the attributes necessary to perfectly sustain life were created before these bodies...God had that LIGHT dwelling WITHIN HIMSELF....He THEN created the sun and moon and stars.

You are still insisting that God changed it up; there was no sun but light and heat existed, then the sun entered into the picture for some unknown reason that I highly doubt anyone could explain.

[RB]

You are still insisting that God changed it up; there was no sun but light and heat existed, then the sun entered into the picture for some unknown reason that I highly doubt anyone could explain.

Alan, you are mocking instead of following the process (only done by God to help our dull senses, he very well could have SPOKE everything into existence in one second as we NOW see it) of God's creating everything in SIX NORMAL 24 HOUR DAYS~done so ONLY for our pitiful understanding and slowness of heart of understanding his MARVELLOUS WORKS. It is ONLY by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were NOT MADE of things that DO APPEAR.

[4WD]

Alan,

The YECs always insist that the Genesis account of creation must be taken as a literal account; except, of course. for those portions of the account which they think are not literal.  The level of hypocrisy is truly astounding.

[RB]

Another metaphorical rendering.  And not a very good one.  What?  God has photons dwelling withing Himself??  What can that possibly even mean?

Mock on sir........

1st Timothy 6:16~"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

Keeping mocking, you just may be sorry that you did.

[4WD]

Alan, you are mocking instead of following the process (only done by God to help our dull senses, he very well could have SPOKE everything into existence in one second as we NOW see it) of God's creating everything in SIX NORMAL 24 HOUR DAYS~done so ONLY for our pitiful understanding and slowness of heart of understanding his MARVELLOUS WORKS. It is ONLY by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were NOT MADE of things that DO APPEAR.

Again the sheer hypocrisy of it all.  "Day" is literal, "light" is not. How can we determine the difference?  Ask the YEC!   

[RB]

Alan, The YECs always insist that the Genesis account of creation must be taken as a literal account; except, of course. for those portions of the account which they think are not literal.  The level of hypocrisy is truly astounding.

Hyprocrisy is seen in those that profess to believe in God, yet deny the word of God concerning creation as Moses taught us, and refuses to receive God's testimony as little children.   

[RB]

Again the sheer hypocrisy of it all.  "Day" is literal, "light" is not. How can we determine the difference?  Ask the YEC!   

I NEVER said that darkness was NOT literal, that's you putting words into my mouth. Of course, this is par for you.

[4WD]

Mock on sir........Keeping mocking, you just may be sorry that you did.

You actually think the "light" spoken of in 1 Timothy 6:16 is the same as the light spoken of in the Genesis account of creation?  Good grief, RB.  I apologize  it is not hypocrisy; it is ignorance.

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 9:5).  You think that is the "light" God was speaking of in Genesis 1:3-5?  Seriously??

[4WD]

I NEVER said that darkness was NOT literal, that's you putting words into my mouth. Of course, this is par for you.

I never mentioned darkness one way or the other. I never said a thing about it.  So obviously I didn't put those words in your mouth.

[4WD]

Hyprocrisy is seen in those that profess to believe in God, yet deny the word of God concerning creation as Moses taught us, and refuses to receive God's testimony as little children.

No, hypocrisy is insisting that the Genesis account must be taken literally and then excusing yourself from having to do that; and then of all things insisting that is what Moses taught.

[Alan]

Hyprocrisy is seen in those that profess to believe in God, yet deny the word of God concerning creation as Moses taught us, and refuses to receive God's testimony as little children.

You do mean agree with YOU don't you? I say that because the majority of you "theological debaters" can't agree on more than one or two things.

[Michael2012]

RB,

I'd like to share you the very first verse of the Bible.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Would you ever thought that anyone would mistake that to be figurative language? The very first statement of truth from Scriptures?

Unless .....

[Alan]

RB,

I'd like to share you the very first verse of the Bible.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Would you ever thought that anyone would mistake that to be figurative language? The very first statement of truth from Scriptures?

Unless .....

Love that verse, it's the truth behind all that exists.

[Carey]

It is interesting that you bring up, in the writer's eye, I suggest if you are as willing to give the same latitude to the writer of Genesis, evolution becomes a little more plausible.


I have done that sir. But do you think that what the theory of evolution says today is caught by the writer's eye, so that what he says in Genesis regarding the creation of God even hints of evolution as described by scientists today? Such events spoken of in the theory of evolution obviously are beyond the writer's eye, unlike that in the case of Ecclesiastes, which is not only seen and experienced by him, but even all of man.

I am not a believer in evolution, but I could be wrong.  It is great to have confidence in one's interpretation of things, but humility is also a great thing and protection from doing others a grave disservice by putting obstacles in their path to God.

Although I would tend to agree the TOE cannot be caught by the writer's eye, although some might disagree.  My reference was to the writer of Genesis's eye.

[Carey]

Was Genesis written from the writer's eye?

I dunno, we don't know how the writer came about his knowledge, but if the writer directly observed the events unfold, and God chose seven days in which to show him...   

[RB]

RB,

I'd like to share you the very first verse of the Bible.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Would you ever thought that anyone would mistake that to be figurative language? The very first statement of truth from Scriptures?

Unless .....

Michael take time and listen to this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szBTl3S24MY

[The Barbarian]

I will take YE creationism in the same way and sense that I will take OE creationism. If you say that YE creationism is a modern revision of God's word, so too is OE creationism.

Actually, there are forms of OE creationism that are not at odds with scripture.   The actual evidence doesn't support them, but they aren't directly in conflict with God's word, as YE creationism is.

And this thinking, of both, is all but the product of their science.

Nope.   Early Christians like Augustine, for example, rejected a literal revision of Genesis, based on the text itself.

Both goes beyond what is written and revealed in scriptures concerning the creation work and creative power of God. Both ought to stick to what is revealed in scriptures, and not go beyond that.

If you actually believe that, you should toss out your computer.

How can a finite fallible mind such as man, with definiteness and with all certainty, be able to know the HOWs of the miracles of the infinite infallible God?

And yet YE creationists claim exactly that.

Such pride, I would have to say.

Yep.

Worst still is when one tries to justify such attempt as a work that glorifies God.

Some creationists do, and I believe they actually think that it's true.   

Some justifies even, saying that by it, they come to know God more.

If they praise him for the wonder of his creation, that is entirely a good thing.   Knowing more about it, does indeed amplify one's faith.   

They so easily forget one of the reasons why the Son of God came to the earth, who is the express and perfect image of the invisible God, that the world may know Him.

Let's see what God says...
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

I truly feel sorry for the believer who does not experience awe and joy in His creation.   Listen to what He's saying to you in Psalms, and learn from it.

[Alan]

Michael take time and listen to this;

Seriously? Of all the nuts out there, Hovind is probably the nuttiest. A guy that refuses to pay taxes and believes that there is a conspiracy against the general population to orchestrate a new world order is beyond irrational.

[Michael2012]

Quote from: Michael2012 on Sat Nov 03, 2018 - 22:30:57
So, Geneses 1:1 goes

In the beginning, God created extraordinarily high temperature, high density energy.

And if He had, what do you think Moses, or the rest of humanity before the 20th century, would have made of that?  It certainly would not have said anything to them about creation.  It would have been a meaningless statement to them, just as it is to you today.

And He had not.

But to you, he did. And perhaps, in the future, that verse would be revised again. Hopefully it will finds it's way to getting back to its original form and sense:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

[AVZ]

I dunno, we don't know how the writer came about his knowledge, but if the writer directly observed the events unfold, and God chose seven days in which to show him...   

The suggestion in this thread then would be something like God showed Moses how man evolved from apes, and Moses, from his point of view, wrote that Adam fell asleep and God took one of his ribs to create Eve.
The length of time it took to create our universe is not necessarily relevant to the question whether everything was a direct creation, or things came to be through evolution.

[Michael2012]

Hey Michael, go back to my reply #2793 to RB concerning evening and morning.  I doubt that RB will try to answer my question, but perhaps you could step in for him.  What is God's message there concerning evening and morning?  What does it mean there was evening and morning when there wasn't a sun or a moon yet?

If you go back to all my reply posts to you and answer all that you have evaded, perhaps I will consider, with the permission of RB.

I'm sure you know when one evades, what it suggest, shows, and means.

[Michael2012]

Quote
I will take YE creationism in the same way and sense that I will take OE creationism. If you say that YE creationism is a modern revision of God's word, so too is OE creationism.

Actually, there are forms of OE creationism that are not at odds with scripture.   The actual evidence doesn't support them, but they aren't directly in conflict with God's word, as YE creationism is.

Does not matter. I stick with what God says in scriptures about His creation. I'm definitely certain that I am right in doing so.

And this thinking, of both, is all but the product of their science.

Nope.   Early Christians like Augustine, for example, rejected a literal revision of Genesis, based on the text itself.

Whatever. The point being is that both camps believe that God created everything. But then, because of their science, they are divided. And that's sad. There's only one way to settle the division, let go of science and their scientific minds, and hold on to their heart and conscience, and to the revelation of God.

Both goes beyond what is written and revealed in scriptures concerning the creation work and creative power of God. Both ought to stick to what is revealed in scriptures, and not go beyond that.

If you actually believe that, you should toss out your computer.

Yes I actually believe that.
And that has nothing to do with my computer. Not tossing out my computer does not mean I don't actually believe what I said.

How can a finite fallible mind such as man, with definiteness and with all certainty, be able to know the HOWs of the miracles of the infinite infallible God?

And yet YE creationists claim exactly that.

And so do you.

Such pride, I would have to say.

Yep.

It's good you admit that.

Worst still is when one tries to justify such attempt as a work that glorifies God.

Some creationists do, and I believe they actually think that it's true.

Had you not told me, though indirectly, that you actually learn more of the majesty of the Creator by learning the theory of the evolution of man and the formation of the earth? Which I'm pretty sure to you means giving glory to God. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Some justifies even, saying that by it, they come to know God more.

If they praise him for the wonder of his creation, that is entirely a good thing.   Knowing more about it, does indeed amplify one's faith.

Which I think you imply by that that you do. But does that make TOE the truth?

I am not a scientist like you nor take the TOE as true. But I could and do praise God for the wonder of His creation, no less than those who believe in the TOE.

But this is what I'm pretty sure about, that God is not glorified by anything short of truth. Haven't you heard of those who believe that all mankind will be saved by God? Such belief appears to be glorious for God, is it not? But then, it is not the truth. And that makes it a lie. Tell me, does that glorify God? Definitely and evidently not.   

They so easily forget one of the reasons why the Son of God came to the earth, who is the express and perfect image of the invisible God, that the world may know Him.

Let's see what God says...
Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

I truly feel sorry for the believer who does not experience awe and joy in His creation.   Listen to what He's saying to you in Psalms, and learn from it.

And yes the heavens indeed do. Scientists or not, the Christian sees the glory of God in the heavens and in all of creation. But above all of these, fail not to consider the glory of God revealed and declared through Jesus Christ, the exact representation and perfect image of the otherwise invisible God.

I feel the same way with you regarding those who does not experience awe and joy in God's creation. Scientists or not, I am pretty sure the Christian do, and no less than you. The only difference perhaps is, unlike you, they do, not with uncertain knowledge, but with the truth of creation as revealed by the Creator himself to them.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Actually, there are forms of OE creationism that are not at odds with scripture.   The actual evidence doesn't support them, but they aren't directly in conflict with God's word, as YE creationism is.

I stick with what God says in scriptures about His creation. I'm definitely certain that I am right in doing so.

If you're a YE creationist, you aren't following scriptures.

And this thinking, of both, is all but the product of their science.

Barbarian observes:
Nope.   Early Christians like Augustine, for example, rejected a literal revision of Genesis, based on the text itself.

Whatever. The point being is that both camps believe that God created everything. But then, because of their science, they are divided.

On one side, the evidence convinced them of an old Earth and evolution.   On the other side, the visions of an Adventist "prophetess" led them to the new doctrine of YE creationism.

Both goes beyond what is written and revealed in scriptures concerning the creation work and creative power of God. Both ought to stick to what is revealed in scriptures, and not go beyond that.

Barbarian observes:
If you actually believe that, you should toss out your computer.

Yes I actually believe that.
And that has nothing to do with my computer. Not tossing out my computer does not mean I don't actually believe what I said.

I'm sure you believe it.  I'm just pointing out the logical inconsistency of you asserting that and owning a computer.

How can a finite fallible mind such as man, with definiteness and with all certainty, be able to know the HOWs of the miracles of the infinite infallible God?

Barbarian observes:
And yet YE creationists claim exactly that.

Such pride, I would have to say.

Barbarian observes:   
Yep.

And so do you.

Nope.   Science can show us some things about His creation, but not how his miracles work.

Had you not told me, though indirectly, that you actually learn more of the majesty of the Creator by learning the theory of the evolution of man and the formation of the earth?

I said it enriches my faith to know more about His creation. 

Some justifies even, saying that by it, they come to know God more.

Barbarian observes:   
If they praise him for the wonder of his creation, that is entirely a good thing.   Knowing more about it, does indeed amplify one's faith.

But does that make TOE the truth?

The evidence makes it true.   After all, there were (and still are to a degree) YE creationists who said that black people were inferior to other people, and this was a demonstration of God's will.

I am not a scientist like you nor take the TOE as true. But I could and do praise God for the wonder of His creation, no less than those who believe in the TOE.

And if you take what you see and understand, that is laudable.   On the other hand, the founder of the Institute for Creation Research used his faulty ideas of creationism, to assert the inferiority of black people.   That wasn't so good.

But this is what I'm pretty sure about, that God is not glorified by anything short of truth.

Yep.  My point, exactly.

They so easily forget one of the reasons why the Son of God came to the earth, who is the express and perfect image of the invisible God, that the world may know Him.

Barbarian suggests:
    Let's see what God says...
    Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

    I truly feel sorry for the believer who does not experience awe and joy in His creation.   Listen to what He's saying to you in Psalms, and learn from it.

As I said, even many creationists take joy and instruction from His creation.   The problem lies in the tendency of some to let creationism lead them off into things that do not glorify God, as Henry Morris did.

[RB]

Seriously? Of all the nuts out there, Hovind is probably the nuttiest. A guy that refuses to pay taxes and believes that there is a conspiracy against the general population to orchestrate a new world order is beyond irrational.

Well I really knew not one thing of his personal life, just as I know nothing of yours. A friend sent it to me, I should have done my research and did not. I certainly do not agree with that if that's who he is, and I was not too fond of his "overly" jesting, to be honest.  Sorry.

[RB]

If you go back to all my reply posts to you and answer all that you have evaded, perhaps I will consider, with the permission of RB.

Brother Michael please give your input, it is more than welcome.

I'm sure you know when one evades, what it suggest, shows, and means.

He knows, and he also knows why he evanded. I would show mercy, for at times we all miss others post to us, I certainly have. He's also old like me, so I know that he has.

[Michael2012]

Barbarian observes:
Actually, there are forms of OE creationism that are not at odds with scripture.   The actual evidence doesn't support them, but they aren't directly in conflict with God's word, as YE creationism is.

I stick with what God says in scriptures about His creation. I'm definitely certain that I am right in doing so.

If you're a YE creationist, you aren't following scriptures.

And this thinking, of both, is all but the product of their science.

Barbarian observes:
Nope.   Early Christians like Augustine, for example, rejected a literal revision of Genesis, based on the text itself.

Whatever. The point being is that both camps believe that God created everything. But then, because of their science, they are divided.

On one side, the evidence convinced them of an old Earth and evolution.   On the other side, the visions of an Adventist "prophetess" led them to the new doctrine of YE creationism.

Both goes beyond what is written and revealed in scriptures concerning the creation work and creative power of God. Both ought to stick to what is revealed in scriptures, and not go beyond that.

Barbarian observes:
If you actually believe that, you should toss out your computer.

Yes I actually believe that.
And that has nothing to do with my computer. Not tossing out my computer does not mean I don't actually believe what I said.

I'm sure you believe it.  I'm just pointing out the logical inconsistency of you asserting that and owning a computer.

Please don't bring me the YE creationist thing. I am not. I am simply a Christian who takes God at His word, take it only as far as what is said in scriptures. 

And I find no inconsistency in believing "Both goes beyond what is written and revealed in scriptures concerning the creation work and creative power of God. Both ought to stick to what is revealed in scriptures, and not go beyond that.", and owning a computer. So, your have no point there. 

How can a finite fallible mind such as man, with definiteness and with all certainty, be able to know the HOWs of the miracles of the infinite infallible God?

Barbarian observes:
And yet YE creationists claim exactly that.

Such pride, I would have to say.

Barbarian observes:   
Yep.

And so do you.

Nope.   Science can show us some things about His creation, but not how his miracles work.

Nope? Well, even no matter how you deny that, your post clearly say you do.

Now you tell us what science can show as a deviation?

Haven't you been telling this forum that man, as explained by the scientific theory of the evolution of man, is HOW God created man? Unless you've repented of that already. And then inconsistently say that science cannot know HOW God's miracles work. Make up your mind Barbarian.

Had you not told me, though indirectly, that you actually learn more of the majesty of the Creator by learning the theory of the evolution of man and the formation of the earth?

I said it enriches my faith to know more about His creation.

Good for you then.

But I wonder how the works of the community of man whose nature is that of a finite fallible human carnal mind, can enrich one's faith in God. Isn't that a clear case of having been deceived?

And so, you find enrichment in your faith by the scientific theory of the evolution of man. And that is because you believe that it is HOW God created all things spread over the billion years, which to you perhaps is more glorious and amazing than if God created all things spread over in just a very short time? Anyway, such matter is relative and is in the eye of the believer perhaps.

Some justifies even, saying that by it, they come to know God more.

Barbarian observes:   
If they praise him for the wonder of his creation, that is entirely a good thing.   Knowing more about it, does indeed amplify one's faith.

But does that make TOE the truth?

The evidence makes it true.   After all, there were (and still are to a degree) YE creationists who said that black people were inferior to other people, and this was a demonstration of God's will.

So, finally you admit to believe that TOE is true. You sure about that? This tells me that you can face up to God and tell Him that.

I am not a scientist like you nor take the TOE as true. But I could and do praise God for the wonder of His creation, no less than those who believe in the TOE.

And if you take what you see and understand, that is laudable.   On the other hand, the founder of the Institute for Creation Research used his faulty ideas of creationism, to assert the inferiority of black people.   That wasn't so good.

Take your issue to the ICR sir.

But this is what I'm pretty sure about, that God is not glorified by anything short of truth.

Yep.  My point, exactly.

If it was, you've hidden it quite well.

They so easily forget one of the reasons why the Son of God came to the earth, who is the express and perfect image of the invisible God, that the world may know Him.

Barbarian suggests:
    Let's see what God says...
    Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

    I truly feel sorry for the believer who does not experience awe and joy in His creation.   Listen to what He's saying to you in Psalms, and learn from it.

And yes the heavens indeed do. Scientists or not, the Christian sees the glory of God in the heavens and in all of creation. But above all of these, fail not to consider the glory of God revealed and declared through Jesus Christ, the exact representation and perfect image of the otherwise invisible God.

I feel the same way with you regarding those who does not experience awe and joy in God's creation. Scientists or not, I am pretty sure the Christian do, and no less than you. The only difference perhaps is, unlike you, they do, not with uncertain knowledge, but with the truth of creation as revealed by the Creator himself to them.

As I said, even many creationists take joy and instruction from His creation.   The problem lies in the tendency of some to let creationism lead them off into things that do not glorify God, as Henry Morris did.

Perhaps you can take your issue on creationism with the concerned people, not to me. I am a simply a Christian.

[RB]

Actually, there are forms of OE creationism that are not at odds with scripture.   The actual evidence doesn't support them, but they aren't directly in conflict with God's word, as YE creationism is.

Sir, YE creationism is NOT in conflict with the word of God, YOU and your evolutionist friends ARE~and you more so than others.

Early Christians like Augustine, for example, rejected a literal revision of Genesis, based on the text itself.

The man of God also wrote a book later on toward the end of his life~a book of confessions where he confessed many of his earlier errors from whence he was converted from. I must go back and refresh my memory of what all he recanted, and I'm sure like all of God's elect, they believe differently on many doctrines than when they first begin to learn the scriptures. He did spiritualize (or, gave an allegorical meaning to Genesis 1,2 even though he STILL held to God creating all things)  Genesis more than I would feel comfortable in doing so, in his early life as a teacher of the word of God.

If you actually believe that, you should toss out your computer.

Well, you have for all practical purposes tossed out your bible in favor of following men who think they are wise and have gone against 99% Christians of the past.

And yet YE creationists claim exactly that.

You're wrong. We stand upon the testimony of the word of God BY FAITH~just as the Holy Ghost said here:

Hebrews 11:3~Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

It is BY FAITH, not through science-SO CALLED~God's word alone is the origin of true science, what science is added to this MUST agree with God's testimony which we receive by faith~for NO man has even begun to search out the INFINITE power, wisdom and knowledge of God it is past our ability to do so.

If they praise him for the wonder of his creation, that is entirely a good thing.   Knowing more about it, does indeed amplify one's faith.   

That's BS~faith cometh by hearing and hearing BY THE WORD OF GOD, not through science-so called~it will destroy one child like faith, and puff up their vain minds.

The evidence makes it true.   After all, there were (and still are to a degree) YE creationists who said that black people were inferior to other people, and this was a demonstration of God's will.

The ONLY people that I have ever heard say such a stupid thing are your cousins the atheist, and they would quickly tell you that the reason they are black is that they were born and lived so close to the equator~Yet I would always remind them that if the blacks lived in the north pole black people marrying each other would have black babies...always~ and THAT 's OKAY, I have four grandchildren that are half black and they certainly are NOT inferior to other people.

And if you take what you see and understand, that is laudable.   On the other hand, the founder of the Institute for Creation Research used his faulty ideas of creationism, to assert the inferiority of black people.   That wasn't so good.

AGAIN, your cousins do that, I KNOW, my stepfather-in-law does that very thing and really think that the blacks come from apes~now he's highly intelligent as far as the world judges IQ but he just about as dumb as a telephone pole when it comes to any spiritual light whatsoever. I have listened to his stupidity out of respect when I was younger, but no more, even though he attempts to bring these things up from time to time. DO not blame creationist per Genesis 1,2 on everything.... receive the blame from your own camp where spiritual stupidity belongs and where it truly reigns.

I truly feel sorry for the believer who does not experience awe and joy in His creation.   Listen to what He's saying to you in Psalms, and learn from it.

BY FAITH we DO! You ONLY experience it (if you do, God Knows) to the degree you THINK you understand it~I do not even labor to try to figure out his work in creation, for it is so far above my ability to even think and reason~I just SEE and bless him that I know him that has power beyond my ability to comprehend and BY FAITH I receive his testimony that he said LET THERE BE and and it happened instantly and perfectly JUST AS HE WILLED IT TO BE.

[4WD]

It is BY FAITH, not through science-SO CALLED~God's word alone is the origin of true science, what science is added to this MUST agree with God's testimony which we receive by faith

I have no idea of what you are even thinking with that.  What, precisely, is God's testimony which you have received by faith about electromagnetism? Or gravity? Or the aerodynamics of flight? Or radiation? Or.......?

God is the origin of true science.  I believe that to be a fact.  But also the fact is that God's word actually does nothing at all in revealing true science.  If that were actually the case, there would be no need whatsoever of engaging in any science or engineering studies; all that would be necessary would be to study God's word.  But of course we know that is not true.

[RB]

God is the origin of true science. 

And his word is the testimony about how this earth, sun and the moon and all worlds were created.

What, precisely, is God's testimony which you have received by faith about electromagnetism? Or gravity? Or the aerodynamics of flight? Or radiation? Or.......?

The studying those things how God instituted the working of those things are wonderful, seeing how everything works perfectly according to God's design of them for our life on this earth which he made to be inhabited. They just DID NOT happen by chance, or slowly over many millions of years to where we are now. That's all that we are contending for~nothing more. 

[4WD]

And his word is the testimony about how this earth, sun and the moon and all worlds were created.

No, it doesn't.  You may interpret that way, but that is incorrect.