Discussion Regarding Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

[The Barbarian]

The same could be said for all of scripture, if you don't believe that water baptism (ex) is fundamental to salvation you could be spreading the lies of satan's deception.

Luke 7:50   And he said to the woman,Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 23: [42] And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. ... [43] And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

I doubt if God spreads the lies of Satan's deception.

[The Barbarian]

For everyone posting here.

Young earthers, those evolutionists that are so into the millions and billions of year theories, and everyone in between.

Why can it not be all? Why does it have to be either or?

As far as God is concerned, it doesn't matter what of many possible sides you take, so long as you love Him and love other people, and seek to serve him.   The Bible takes no sides on this question.   And there are forms of creationism that are consistent with the Bible and with the evidence.

[Alan]

For everyone posting here.

Young earthers, those evolutionists that are so into the millions and billions of year theories, and everyone in between.

Why can it not be all? Why does it have to be either or?

That is my take on it, I believe God created in one fashion where others believe something entirely different but at the end of the day the important part to believe is that God did it, how is not as important.

[The Barbarian]

For those that believe that it is not a salvation issue, unfortunately, that is not the effect I see happening when the evolution theory had turned many away for believing in the Bible and Jesus Christ altogether

Since evolution is consistent with Christian belief, that's not an issue.  But when YE creationists (not all of them, mind) say that you must accept their new doctrines to be saved, that does turn people away from God.

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of the world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion [quoting 1 Tim 1:7].
St. Augustine of Hippo The Literal Meaning of Genesis

Here is the testimony of a Christian, a graduate of the ICR graduate school, and a former YE creationist:

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationism. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry.  I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question.  One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!'  A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute.  There has to be one!"  But he could not name one.  I can not name one.  No one else could either.  One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry.  I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity.  I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.
http://www.oldearth.org/whyileft.htm

The erroneous claim that one must believe in YE creationism to be a Christian is preventing many sinners from believing in the Bible & Jesus altoether, and so it is a salvation issue to unbelievers in that respect.  You may not intend to drive people from God, but if you tell people that Christians must believe the new doctrine of YE creationism, that is what you are doing.

This is the real damage YE creationism does to His Church.

[LastCall]

Instead of answering the question you paste yet another wall of text?

Yes or no, do varied beliefs in the creation account affect our salvation?

For those that believe in the evolution theory and in Jesus Christ still?  No.  They will not lose their salvation.

Will it affect their being received by the Bridegroom to the Marriage Supper in Heaven?  Yes. There will be a loss of that first inheritance of being that vessel unto honor in His House, thus becoming a castaway.

Just as that fellowship in church has to be held in sincerity and in truth, and the same will definitely be true for how He will hold fellowship at that Marriage Supper table in Heaven. Note verse 8

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

That is why many believes will not be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes;  they will not lose their salvation, but they will be cast away into the bed of the great tribulation to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from the lie of the evolution theory whose works denies Him & His words plainly enough for why believers turn away from Him.

Excommunication by the church will mirror the same effect when God judges His House at the pre great trib rapture event.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.....12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So I am asking you to go before that throne of grace and ask Jesus Christ for help to either confirm the evolution theory by His words or to reprove the evolution theory by His words ( you will need His help to stop rationalizing what is plainly written ) .

2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
I notice that the decades-long decline in violent crime coincides with the teaching of evolution in public schools.   I notice also that the increase in pro-life opinion occurred at the same time.   The effect, if there is one, is toward less violence and fewer abortions.

Then you observation as a scientist is seriously flawed.

Well, let's take a look...



Nope.  You've been very badly misled about that.  Let's see what the abortion rate is doing...



You're way off there, too.   So if there's an effect, evolution teaching reduces violence and abortion.

[Alan]

For those that believe in the evolution theory and in Jesus Christ still?  No.  They will not lose their salvation.

Will it affect their being received by the Bridegroom to the Marriage Supper in Heaven?  Yes. There will be a loss of that first inheritance of being that vessel unto honor in His House, thus becoming a castaway.

What about other irreconcilable opinions in scripture? People more often than not disagree on matters of theology. Are all those people under the same scrutiny?

[Michael2012]

It's difficult to predict exactly when an asteroid might contact the earth and destroy life as we know it for multiple decades.
You are demanding too much from science.

It is difficult to know exactly what happened in the distant distant past, even billions of years, sir. 
Scientists is demanding too much from us to begin with, don't you think?
So, to react accordingly, is just fair, I guess.

[The Barbarian]

It is difficult to know exactly what happened in the distant distant past, even billions of years, sir.

Some things.   But it's remarkable how many things we can know, based on the evidence left behind in the rocks.   We can know which dinosaurs were warm-blooded, which whales were aquatic and which were marine, how dinosaurs breathed, whether dinosaurs were more closely related to lizards or birds, and many, many other things.   Would you like to learn how we know these things?

[Michael2012]

If scientist are so intelligent as to predict things, may I ask, what do they predict concerning these new creatures or species or of these advanced version of existing species or creatures?

Depends on selective pressures, which are hard to predict as climate changes.   However, the prediction that Hawthorn flies would diverge to form a population that lived on hawthorns, and another population would become adapted to apples, has been verified.   The second population is an incipient species, no longer interbreeding with the original. 

Predictions of evolutionary change in stickleback fishes introduced to new environments has been verified.
https://news.stanford.edu/news/2004/april21/fish.html

Depends? So, bottom line, is you are saying it is very difficult to predict, even with all the scientific knowledge of the natural laws which govern the universe that you scientists have. So, that's it with the future...

If they point to evidences that leads them to the past, do they not have evidences that lead to the future?

Yep.

So tell us, what will become of man in the future? Any scientific calculation on that? Say at least in the next 1000 years, then the next 10,000 years, then the next 100,000 years, then the next 1,000,000 years, then the next, 1,000,000,000 years? 

[Michael2012]

Why, are Environmental changes not according to the laws of nature

So far, they are.   But since causes are not always predictable, environmental changes will not always be predictable.  Your day goes according to the laws of nature, but is never fully predictable.

You said "causes are not always predictable". Is that a law then or what?

Have you taken into account what you say here in dealing with the past?

May I ask, as a Christian, do you believe that Satan have power?

If you are a Christian, he has no power over you that you do not give to him willingly.

That is not the question sir. Let me ask that again. Do you believe that Satan have supernatural power? 

Had it ever occurred to you that he is trying to deceive the world today, as he had deceived Eve about the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

No doubt, he delights in YE creationism, which some people use to build a barrier against non-believers to come to God.

So, you believe.

Remember what the serpent said to Eve? He said "God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Yep.  Satan often uses a part of the truth to deceive.

Good to know you see that.

And what happened to Eve?

Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened:

Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil:

Here's what happened to Eve, before that sir.

Gen.3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

You apparently did not comment on this sir (see below). It makes me wonder.

Today people's eyes are pleased of all the things that is the fruit of science and see it desirable to make one wise. Could it be that others, like Eve, were deceived, they took of its fruit and ate. And still others, like Adam, they heed the voice of others, that they also ate of the fruit? 

In the beginning, the deception was about knowledge. It seems, the old serpent, uses the same deception, knowledge. Truly, as scriptures says, knowledge puffs up the man. And that, as we had seen from the very beginning, it brings destruction.

[Michael2012]

It is difficult to know exactly what happened in the distant distant past, even billions of years, sir.

Some things.   But it's remarkable how many things we can know, based on the evidence left behind in the rocks.   We can know which dinosaurs were warm-blooded, which whales were aquatic and which were marine, how dinosaurs breathed, whether dinosaurs were more closely related to lizards or birds, and many, many other things.   Would you like to learn how we know these things?

What exactly happened in the past only God knows sir. One who says that he knows what happened there is acting like being God. One can only guess at best sir, even the most brilliant minds of all of humanity combined.

You asked "Would you like to learn how we know these things?".

I think it's best that you keep those to yourself sir. I'd rather spend my time studying God's words in scriptures sir. Try that instead, I would have to suggest.

[The Barbarian]

What exactly happened in the past only God knows sir.

The notion that we can't know anything we didn't personally see happen is demonstrably false.

One who says that he knows what happened there is acting like being God.

No.  It's acting like a human.   God gave us the evidence and the intelligence and curiosity to understand it.

One can only guess at best sir, even the most brilliant minds of all of humanity combined.

Nope.   We can use evidence to learn about things we did not see happen. 

(Barbarian offers to show how we know those things)

I think it's best that you keep those to yourself sir.

Ignorance is no sin.   But it's turning your back on His creation.

I'd rather spend my time studying God's words in scriptures sir.

I've been reading His word for nearly 63 years.  He seems to favor not being ignorant.    My observation is that the more I learn about His creation, the more I am in awe of His wisdom and majesty.

Try that instead, I would have to suggest.

[The Barbarian]

You said "causes are not always predictable". Is that a law then or what?

Just a fact.

Have you taken into account what you say here in dealing with the past?

Yep.   

May I ask, as a Christian, do you believe that Satan have power?

Barbarian observes:   
If you are a Christian, he has no power over you that you do not give to him willingly.

That is not the question sir. Let me ask that again. Do you believe that Satan have supernatural power?

If you'd read scripture, you'd notice that it's the only kind he has, subject to God's willingness to grant him anything else.

Had it ever occurred to you that he is trying to deceive the world today,

For example, telling YE creationists that one must be YE to be saved?   Or maybe just telling them that people who don't accept that modern doctrine, aren't going to be as well off as those who do.   

as he had deceived Eve about the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

As you see, he deceived her by telling part of the truth.   It's his nature to do that.  No doubt, he delights in YE creationism, which some people use to build a barrier against non-believers to come to God.

So, you believe.

I showed you an example.   A man dedicated to YE creationism, who when he found it could not be true, almost lost his faith in God.    This is the real danger of YE creationism.

Remember what the serpent said to Eve? He said "God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Barbarian observes:
Yep.  Satan often uses a part of the truth to deceive.

And what happened to Eve?

God says:
Genesis 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened:
Genesis 3:22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil:

As you now realize, Satan used part of the truth to deceive.

Today people's eyes are pleased of all the things that is the fruit of science and see it desirable to make one wise.

Proverbs 18:15 An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

The fruit of YE creationism no doubt appeals to others, who think it's desirable to make them wise.   Could it be that others, like Eve, were deceived, they took of its fruit and ate. And still others, like Adam, they heed the voice of others, that they also ate of the fruit?

In the beginning, the deception was about knowledge.

Indeed.   It was knowledge that caused the fall.   It was when their eyes were opened, they knew good and evil and became like God.   Do you understand why that was initially a curse and later a blessing?

YE creationism is just the latest way the serpent seeks to undermine God.    It seems, the old serpent, uses the same deception, knowledge.

Truly, as scriptures says, knowledge puffs up the man.

Proverbs 18:15 An intelligent heart acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

Not what you said it was.

[Texas Conservative]

Barbarian observes:
I notice that the decades-long decline in violent crime coincides with the teaching of evolution in public schools.   I notice also that the increase in pro-life opinion occurred at the same time.   The effect, if there is one, is toward less violence and fewer abortions.

Well, let's take a look...



Nope.  You've been very badly misled about that.  Let's see what the abortion rate is doing...



You're way off there, too.   So if there's an effect, evolution teaching reduces violence and abortion.

Even attempting to make such an argument pitting the teaching of evolution affection abortion rates is beyond retarded.

[The Barbarian]

Even attempting to make such an argument pitting the teaching of evolution affection abortion rates is beyond retarded.

I wouldn't call him "retarded" but I do think it's a very foolish argument.   Not only is there no reason to believe that teaching evolution has any effect on violence or abortion rates, the correlation of those two things is a negative one. 

As you suggest, correlation is not causation, so we can't argue that teaching evolution lowers violence, either.

[4WD]

Even attempting to make such an argument pitting the teaching of evolution affection abortion rates is beyond retarded.

It wasn't Barbarian making the connection.  He posted the data showing that if there is a connection it is just the opposite to that proposed by the one arguing with Barbarian.

[Michael2012]

The notion that we can't know anything we didn't personally see happen is demonstrably false.

Well, truly now, knowledge really puffed up the man. He thinks he knows what happened billions of years ago. 

One who says that he knows what happened there is acting like being God.

No.  It's acting like a human.   God gave us the evidence and the intelligence and curiosity to understand it.

Do you know what's in the mind and heart of the human that you say?

Let me give you a hint. The human chose to disobey his creator, and desires to be wise, for he wanted to be like God in that sense. He is foolish, thinking he could be like God by his disobedience. And he is foolish and proud, thinking that he can handle what he is desiring of.

The human is of the flesh. Paul said that nothing good dwells in the flesh. Don't you believe that? Haven't you read in scriptures what God said of man?

Gen. 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

At here's what Paul reveals about man.

Romans 1:21-23
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Romans 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Romans 1:28-31
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

One can only guess at best sir, even the most brilliant minds of all of humanity combined.

Nope.   We can use evidence to learn about things we did not see happen.

Like what happened billions of years ago? Like how God created all things? Do you not realize what that even sounds like?

If you are not guessing, are you now saying that using the evidence you say, that you are sure it happened that way? If you aren't sure, why act as though you are? Such wisdom of man. Such confidence in the intelligence and wisdom of man.

I think it's best that you keep those to yourself sir.

Ignorance is no sin.   But it's turning your back on His creation.

Turning my back on creation? What I'm turning my back from is not on God's creation sir. It's from what scientists have come up as to HOW God created everything, which goes beyond what God revealed in scriptures.

I'd rather spend my time studying God's words in scriptures sir.

I've been reading His word for nearly 63 years.  He seems to favor not being ignorant.    My observation is that the more I learn about His creation, the more I am in awe of His wisdom and majesty.

Try that instead, I would have to suggest.

Reading is not sin. But if all you do is read, what good is that?

You been making observations practically all your life sir. Observing is not sin. But if all you do is observe, what good is that?

You said "My observation is that the more I learn about His creation, the more I am in awe of His wisdom and majesty." So, you feel good about your observation. Others, on the other hand, their observation keeps them farther away from God, and keeps millions of people away from God. Something not to feel good about. Besides, I'd rather do things that God will feel good about, do things that pleases God. 

You said "Try that instead, I would have to suggest." What? Are you now suggesting that I spend my time studying what scientists have written rather than what I presently am spending my time at, that is, studying God's words in scriptures? And for what end? Christian, that's really unbelievable! Hope you observe what your observations had made of you sir. I'm sorry to say. but that is just my observation of you.

[Alan]

Michael, please try to ask coherent and sensible questions, it's quite obvious that you are uneducated on this subject but please try not to confuse the thread with ridiculous questions.

A murder is solved by evidence, it isn't solved by predicting the future.

[Michael2012]

Michael, please try to ask coherent and sensible questions, it's quite obvious that you are uneducated on this subject but please try not to confuse the thread with ridiculous questions.

A murder is solved by evidence, it isn't solved by predicting the future.

So what's your point in your last statement?

And Alan, would you be kind enough to tell me what you say are ridiculous questions that I asked?

[Alan]

So what's your point in your last statement?

And Alan, would you be kind enough to tell me what you say are ridiculous questions that I asked?

Demanding that scientists show predictions of the future is ridiculous, at least in this field it is. 

[LastCall]

What about other irreconcilable opinions in scripture? People more often than not disagree on matters of theology. Are all those people under the same scrutiny?

You can't hold fellowship in sincerity and in truth at the Marriage Supper table if a believer is supporting a lie that has caused many to turn away from the Bible & Jesus altogether.

Those former believers and sinners that would have believed in Him if they knew there was God to seek after.  You think God would not know of their complaints?

[Alan]

You can't hold fellowship in sincerity and in truth at the Marriage Supper table if a believer is supporting a lie that has caused many to turn away from the Bible & Jesus altogether.

Those former believers and sinners that would have believed in Him if they knew there was God to seek after.  You think God would not know of their complaints?

Still dodging the question 

[Michael2012]

Demanding that scientists show predictions of the future is ridiculous, at least in this field it is.

So, you don't like that and you find that ridiculous.

How about this. Hope you don't find this ridiculous.

If God created by evolution all kinds of creatures, and evolution still continues, and there ae still new kinds and new species evolving, does that mean God isn't finished creating yet?   

[Alan]

So, you don't like that and you find that ridiculous.

How about this. Hope you don't find this ridiculous.

If God created by evolution all kinds of creatures, and evolution still continues, and there ae still new kinds and new species evolving, does that mean God isn't finished creating yet?

Things are continuously changing all around us as nature predicts, but consider this; maybe, just maybe we reside in the era that scripture points to regarding the return of our Lord. It is in God's hands.

[NorrinRadd]

Ok, scatter-gun post...

-- I can't locate the post(s), but some YE in the thread remarked about non-YEs considering them worthy of ridicule for being "uneducated."  It's not that so much as the fact that some of you seem PROUD of being uneducated, as if ignorance were a virtue.  Such people do deserve scorn, and more.

-- KJV-only people are nuts.

-- Hyper-literalists are nuts.

-- At least one YE felt obliged for some reason to detour into deriding those of us who hold to a Pentecostal understanding of Rom. 8:26-27.  What was the point of that, other than to be unnecessarily insulting?

-- There is a ton of blather from at least one of the YEs about the Pre-Trib Rapture in relation to whether or not we hold YE beliefs.  First, it's nutty to link the two.  Second, what about those of us who do not hold to Pre-Trib Rapturism?

-- I do have serious qualms about using the various natural sciences to determine what Gen. 1-11 must have meant and not meant.  I have equal qualms about trying to force the evidences of the natural sciences to fit a literalistic reading of Gen. 1-11.  I believe philology and theology should be the primary tools used to interpret Scripture; if the meaning does not comport with the findings of the natural sciences, accept the mystery.  (I specify "natural" sciences, because I consider philology and theology to be "sciences" of their own sorts.)

[Alan]

Ok, scatter-gun post...

-- I can't locate the post(s), but some YE in the thread remarked about non-YEs considering them worthy of ridicule for being "uneducated."  It's not that so much as the fact that some of you seem PROUD of being uneducated, as if ignorance were a virtue.  Such people do deserve scorn, and more.

-- KJV-only people are nuts.

-- Hyper-literalists are nuts.

-- At least one YE felt obliged for some reason to detour into deriding those of us who hold to a Pentecostal understanding of Rom. 8:26-27.  What was the point of that, other than to be unnecessarily insulting?

-- There is a ton of blather from at least one of the YEs about the Pre-Trib Rapture in relation to whether or not we hold YE beliefs.  First, it's nutty to link the two.  Second, what about those of us who do not hold to Pre-Trib Rapturism?

-- I do have serious qualms about using the various natural sciences to determine what Gen. 1-11 must have meant and not meant.  I have equal qualms about trying to force the evidences of the natural sciences to fit a literalistic reading of Gen. 1-11.  I believe philology and theology should be the primary tools used to interpret Scripture; if the meaning does not comport with the findings of the natural sciences, accept the mystery.  (I specify "natural" sciences, because I consider philology and theology to be "sciences" of their own sorts.)

Lots of blather indeed   

Now if we debate one of these literalists in a non-related thread we are belittled for being atheist like evolutionary adherents. (par).

[Ginger Rella]

Since evolution is consistent with Christian belief, that's not an issue.  But when YE creationists (not all of them, mind) say that you must accept their new doctrines to be saved, that does turn people away from God.

It is not consistent with Christian beliefs that we are taught when we walk into Sunday school classes and were taught stories from the bible. Or in church services when they read passages from the bible.

Or when we went to school and are given a text book to read that shows a series of monkeys, first walking on all fours... then apes, who start all hunched over on all fours but gradually over the multiple  milleniums  started walking upright... then their conceived rendition of cave men.... andthen humans as we know them.  With nary a mention of God. Heaven forbid anything about Jesus... and only the mention that we all came from a single cell in the sea.

So not all evolution is cinsistent with Christianity.

And I still want to know, as I asked before....

"For everyone posting here.

Young earthers, those evolutionists that are so into the millions and billions of year theories, and everyone in between.

Why can it not be all? Why does it have to be either or?"

Why can't it be that of those things you evolutionists call fact and the actual  creation of man that the YE people believe can't both be fact.. Not that the earth is necessarily as young as what the YE claim but that man as we know him... the one that has a savior and has a potential eternity in heaven came about after all the other was done?

and if you are going to say similarities in makeup... I will simply say.... Take Some flour, water, eggs,sugar, and chocolate and ask you what you get.

Can be cookies, breakfast or a cake.  All 3 linked but drastically different and one did not morph into the other.

[LastCall]

Barbarian observes:
I notice that the decades-long decline in violent crime coincides with the teaching of evolution in public schools.   I notice also that the increase in pro-life opinion occurred at the same time.   The effect, if there is one, is toward less violence and fewer abortions.

Well, let's take a look...



Nope.  You've been very badly misled about that.  Let's see what the abortion rate is doing...



You're way off there, too.   So if there's an effect, evolution teaching reduces violence and abortion.

Funny.  That is not what I am seeing on the National News tonight on NBC.

[LastCall]

Still dodging the question 

That was a yes.  If you want an explanation for that yes, go back to that reply that you seem to think was dodging the question.

[LastCall]

It is not consistent with Christian beliefs that we are taught when we walk into Sunday school classes and were taught stories from the bible. Or in church services when they read passages from the bible.

Or when we went to school and are given a text book to read that shows a series of monkeys, first walking on all fours... then apes, who start all hunched over on all fours but gradually over the multiple  milleniums  started walking upright... then their conceived rendition of cave men.... andthen humans as we know them.  With nary a mention of God. Heaven forbid anything about Jesus... and only the mention that we all came from a single cell in the sea.

So not all evolution is cinsistent with Christianity.

And I still want to know, as I asked before....

"For everyone posting here.

Young earthers, those evolutionists that are so into the millions and billions of year theories, and everyone in between.

Why can it not be all? Why does it have to be either or?"

Why can't it be that of those things you evolutionists call fact and the actual  creation of man that the YE people believe can't both be fact.. Not that the earth is necessarily as young as what the YE claim but that man as we know him... the one that has a savior and has a potential eternity in heaven came about after all the other was done?

and if you are going to say similarities in makeup... I will simply say.... Take Some flour, water, eggs,sugar, and chocolate and ask you what you get.

Can be cookies, breakfast or a cake.  All 3 linked but drastically different and one did not morph into the other.

Why the contentions?  Too many believers have ceased believing in the Bible at all and thus turned away from Jesus because of the evolution theory.

But I believe that those "Christians" that has been preaching evolution are subverted and cannot see the truth in His words, and so the Lord will have to help me to withdraw from further conversations with them since it is obviously going nowhere with them to their benefit while they just resort to insults.

So I apologize for trying to reason with them when obviously they do not want to hear it, and thus responding in kind to their judging me for which I judged their actions instead; as in judge not les ye be judged and so they git judged back, but I should not have since the Lord did nothing to give them pause..

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

I believe the Lord is making it obvious to me that I am of no use to Him here.  Jesus is still Lord.

[NorrinRadd]

Why the contentions?  Too many believers have ceased believing in the Bible at all and thus turned away from Jesus because of the evolution theory.

You have been shown, but like many YEs refuse to acknowledge, that many lose trust in the Bible and turn away because the assertions and predictions of YEC do not explain what they encounter in real life, e.g. in their professions.  So if some do turn away because of "evolution," many others turn away because of YEC.

But I believe that those "Christians" that has been preaching evolution are subverted and cannot see the truth in His words, and so the Lord will have to help me to withdraw from further conversations with them since it is obviously going nowhere with them to their benefit while they just resort to insults.

And you are not "resort(ing) to insults" when you say "Christians" in quotation marks, suggesting that those "preaching" evolution are fakes?

So I apologize for trying to reason with them when obviously they do not want to hear it, and thus responding in kind to their judging me for which I judged their actions instead; as in judge not les ye be judged and so they git judged back, but I should not have since the Lord did nothing to give them pause..

Passive-aggressive fauxpologies are always fun.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Ephesians 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

I believe the Lord is making it obvious to me that I am of no use to Him here.  Jesus is still Lord.

If you continue to judge people's salvation based on whether or not they believe in a woodenly literal view of Gen. 1-11, refuse to acknowledge other hermeneutical approaches at all, and refuse to acknowledge the demonstrable limitations of YEC, I question whether you can be of use to Him anywhere.

[AVZ]

"For everyone posting here.

Young earthers, those evolutionists that are so into the millions and billions of year theories, and everyone in between.

Why can it not be all? Why does it have to be either or?"

If there were no theological consequences for believing in either of the theories, there would indeed be no issue.
The problem is however that the theological impact is very substantial.

The YE theory points to a Designer. In fact, YE creationism can only work if there is a God involved.
On the contrary, Darwinian Evolution is a theory based on a purely materialistic basis for the existence of the universe.
The summum of this theory is to exclude the need for a Creator altogether.

Now some of the evolutionists here would claim they can believe in evolution AND a creator God.
However, believing in a creator God is not part of the evolution theory. The theory of evolution seeks only for a materialistic explanation of the universe.

So back to your question.
Can both be true? Obviously it can not.

You would be better off asking if there is any scientific proof for a YE theory.
See, if the YE theory is a brainless as the evolutionists here claim, then it would not have any basis and there would be no evidence whatsoever for its validity.
Yet evidence does exist!

So if there is evidence that the universe is not billions of years old, why would it be necessarily intelligible to believe it is?

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian shows that violence has been declining for decades, and that abortions are declining in the United States)

Funny.  That is not what I am seeing on the National News tonight on NBC.

Show us that.   Checkable sources.    As you learned, it's well-documented that both violence and abortions are declining in the United States.

[AVZ]

You have been shown, but like many YEs refuse to acknowledge, that many lose trust in the Bible and turn away because the assertions and predictions of YEC do not explain what they encounter in real life, e.g. in their professions.  So if some do turn away because of "evolution," many others turn away because of YEC.

That's a completely retrospective argument.
What you encounter in real life not necessarily is truth.

You see that for example in the life of Jesus.
What Jesus said and preached was opposed to what people encountered in real life, or what they were told by the Scribes and Pharisees.
Hence people turned away from Jesus and ended up killing Him.

People do not turn away from God because they are told the truth...people turn away from God because they choose to believe a lie.
You can't turn away from God if you believe in YEC, because the whole point of YEC is to point towards God.

It is in fact evolution that points away from God.