Baptism anew: Cannot believe I am starting this thread.

[Jaime]

It wasn't the five step process that was the problem, it was over emphasis on one of the steps at the expense of all else.

[Norton]

The five step plan was brought forth in reaction to the Calvinism of 200 years ago. Under the teaching of the day, you might desire salvation, but if you did not have an "experience" from the Holy Spirit you had to wait it out. The five step plan was a taking your salvation into your own hands kind of thing to get it done. Sounds kind of bad, but I believe Jesus did teach some things along those lines. It may have bred some legalism, but I think it is still generally accurate. I only wish that was the worse teaching that entered the ranks.

[Jaime]

There is no doubt that some in the cofc over emphasized baptism to the extent it was a one step plan. Dunk and done if you will. Definitely not scriptural.

[Texas Conservative]

There is. O doibt that some in the cofc over emphasized baptism to the extent it was a one step plan. Dunk and done if you will. Definitely not scriptural.

The 5 steps are a five part parse.

[yogi bear]

Yogi
Baptism is a work only when we perceive it as a work. You will notice that I am not the one who went chipping away at Paul's "salvation is not of works" statements. When the subject of baptism comes up and people began trying to neutralize Paul's statements by saying he was speaking only of works of the Law of Moses, it is a very good indication that they are trying to defend their "salvation by works" view of baptism.
The same people will also start quoting James 2. As Jaime says above, James 2 has almost nothing to do with baptism. James 2 is about works. Baptism is not about works.

Not sure I understand just what you are trying to point out here Norton.I guess I need you to define what you are meaning by works then. I r4ally do not believe I have a works base plan of salvation but I could have my blinders on so please let me know just what you are saying.

I am really trying to see why people say baptism is a work of man but not the rest of the faith responses we have been discussing.If I am spouting a works base salvation please point me to my error.

[Kenneth Sublett]

These are not mechanical steps but the logical progression which leads one who first HEARS the Gospel to do what is commanded in STEPS clearly in Romans 10.  The steps don't work very well because preachers don't have a GO BUTTON. It turns out that for ADULT BAPTISM Alexander Campbell said that Calvin could be a "Campbellite."  Calvin's infant Baptism was something like "baby dedication" and he showed that removing "original sin" had nothing to do with Adults who come to Christ.





Never read that, did you?

[Jaime]

You're not Yogi, anymore that Jesus was in Mark 16:16 for his statement he that believes AND is baptized shall be saved. A two step program? Or Paul's two step program, believe in your heart AND confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and you shall be saved. Another two step program?

[yogi bear]

The 5 steps are a five part parse.

I really do not see how you come to this. It is clearly all taught but not as steps as some call it but a flow of coming to Christ. Yes you have to hear the gospel that is clearly taught. If you do not hear the gospel how could you ever come to faith. Yes we have to have faith before anything else matters we must believe the gospel and then yes we must repent for with out repentance our faith is not true and yes we are told we must be baptized in the name of Christ for the remission of sin and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is all one flow as we are drawn by the spirit through Gods word this is not steps but a flow and is found in the bible someone named it 5 steps in history and it has been a battle cry ever sense. Do you really think that the flow is not recorded in the word?

[Kenneth Sublett]

Scott used his fingers to teach CHILDREN: he was not holding a school of theology.

[Texas Conservative]

I really do not see how you come to this. It is clearly all taught but not as steps as some call it but a flow of coming to Christ. Yes you have to hear the gospel that is clearly taught. If you do not hear the gospel how could you ever come to faith. Yes we have to have faith before anything else matters we must believe the gospel and then yes we must repent for with out repentance our faith is not true and yes we are told we must be baptized in the name of Christ for the remission of sin and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is all one flow as we are drawn by the spirit through Gods word this is not steps but a flow and is found in the bible someone named it 5 steps in history and it has been a battle cry ever sense. Do you really think that the flow is not recorded in the word?

I came to it very easily.  It is quite apparent.  I know I am stepping on someone's sacred cow, but come on.  Let's go back to using bible terms for bible things.

[Jaime]

I still say the erroneous dunk and done was the problem NOT the fove steps. Inwitnessed at least two teenagers dragged kicking and screamin to the baptistry with no belief, certainly no repentance and absolutely not confessing Christ is Lord. Yes they got dunked much to the parents confident look, but ironically no scriptural baptism took place.

[Kenneth Sublett]

Neither Tex nor anyone i know of understands nor can accept that Ephesians says:

Eph. 5:26WEB That he might sanctify and cleanse it
        with the washing of water
        [INTO] the word,   (In Verbo, En, Eis)
        Into Converto , epistles of a writer, to be occupied in,  Into
        Philo-sophos Love of educatioon, an academy Philo-mathes or Philo-Logos
              OPPOSIITE of Sophistes A. master of one's craft, adept, expert, of diviners, musicians
                     Parapaion Khelon (play the harp, Hieron Melon (Melody in a religious shrine).
                     A quibbler, cheate, one who gave lessons FOR MONEY.
                     Fides (not faithful to the community) but Fides (faithful to Apollon)

IN VERBUM Discourse, conversation, Oral by word of mouth opposite the writings urnio plura verbo quam scripturā mandata dedimus,   In eccl. Lat. as a translation of logos,
LOGOS Opposite PATHOS (personal experiences), Opposite folly, Opposite reasoning, deliberation, singing, playing instruments.

A Christian is a DISCIPLE and a Disciple is a STUDENT and the TEXTBOOK is "that which is written for our LEARNING. That is the always from the wilderness onward a ONE PIECE PATTERN.  No one is baptized to become PREDESTINED not to BURN.

Since no one is baptized to be ENABLED to be a student of Christ in my 87 years I can well understand why people make a major industry DENYING all of Scripture.

Why do you suppose that close to 100% of people focus on "ceremonial legalism" when Jesus says that the invisible kingdom does not come with observation meaning religious rituals claiming to do something for God or the Ticket Holders when Isaiah 55 reads FREE OF CHARGE.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

So a sinners prayer is a work? Heck if baptism is, confessing with our lips is absolutely a work using the same criteria. That would be a wrong criteria. Both are faith responses to the free gift we can't earn or merit.

Good works, salvation by works and faith responses are NOT synonyms. No use in talking anout them as if the are or could be.

Baptism isn't even something the baptizee does.  The baptizer does it.

Because grammar.

[yogi bear]

I came to it very easily.  It is quite apparent.  I know I am stepping on someone's sacred cow, but come on.  Let's go back to using bible terms for bible things.

So you are denying that the bible does teach one has to hear the gospel and believe it which leads to confessing Christ and repentance followed by baptism in Christ name. You do not find that in your bible at all?  Do you need help reading the bible? Sacred cow come on it is biblical and the verses are there in plain view if you can read. It may need to be labeled as such to make you feel better about yourself but it is biblical and not stepped out but in a flow that can be done in a day or may take some months but it is biblical.

Sorry for the attitude but sacred cow really grow up.

[yogi bear]

Baptism isn't even something the baptizee does.  The baptizer does it.

Because grammar.

Exactly I find it hard to understand that so many can not see this.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I still say the erroneous dunk and done was the problem NOT the fove steps. I witnessed at least two teenagers dragged kicking and screamin to the baptistry with no belief, certainly no repentance and absolutely not confessing Christ is Lord. Yes they got dunked much to the parents confident look, but ironically no scriptural baptism took place.

Baptism is an adoption ceremony, not a statement of belief.  That said, the church is not meant to baptize the unrepentant.

[yogi bear]

Baptism is an adoption ceremony, not a statement of belief.  That said, the church is not meant to baptize the unrepentant.

This I can agree to for this is what baptism accomplishes the old life gives way to the new life.

[Kenneth Sublett]

Adoption, or Vocational acceptance as a STUDENT was accomplished by washing, giving new clothing, land taking the name of the parent or teaching master.

Heb. 9:8  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb. 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb. 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

IN CONTRAST PETER SAYS

1Pet. 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pet. 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us [period. full stop now HOW does BAPTISM SAVE?]
        (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,
        but the answer of [REQUEST FOR] a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

A Good conscience has the same meaning as "a holy spirit" the text, walter scott, AC Campbell, other parallel text. 2 Corinthians 3 turning to Christ is converted with same meaning as baptism.  Until the people were baptized as calling on the name of the lord Paul says that they could not READ the text nor could they HEAR the message when the PATTERN was followed by PREACHING the Word by READING the Word and discussing it: that is what Disciples do because "lying wonders" are pretend acts operations using the hypocritic arts and crafts.

[Texas Conservative]

So you are denying that the bible does teach one has to hear the gospel and believe it which leads to confessing Christ and repentance followed by baptism in Christ name. You do not find that in your bible at all?  Do you need help reading the bible? Sacred cow come on it is biblical and the verses are there in plain view if you can read. It may need to be labeled as such to make you feel better about yourself but it is biblical and not stepped out but in a flow that can be done in a day or may take some months but it is biblical.

Sorry for the attitude but sacred cow really grow up.

No, not grow up.  You are so stuck in your denominational thinking, you do not realize your five stepping is a parsing of salvation.

And then you accuse me of denying sctipture.  I do not deny confession, or baptism or faith, etc.  I repudiate the five steps as denominational.  I repudiate the cofc overemphasis on baptism, the use of "baptism for the remission of sins" as a shorthand to refer to baptism in Acts 2:38.

I also repudiate the sinner's prayer.

[Kenneth Sublett]

You cannot SHORT HAND acts

Acts 2:37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

FOR is in order to the remission: EIS never means BECAUSE.   Of the Lost Spirits or the WAY that is called a SECT, A tiny flock of sheep and no goats, they will never be able to argue against God

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They were ADDED TO THE CHURCH which is not a worship center but an UMBRELLUM or Safe House as a SCHOOL (only) of the WORD (only

A BELIEVER HAS BEEN BAPTIZED:

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
2Th. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,
what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[yogi bear]

I know I should just let it be and not converse with you but seriously I really do not know what you believe you never really go into detail and state what you believe but are quick to make little remarks like you have done tonight and not explain your stance. I on the other hand have laid it all out over and over many a time and you just say stuck in denominational thinking so if it is not according to scripture please spell it out where I am wrong so I can see it the way you think I should be seeing it.

Don't beat around the bush but set me straight. You are instructed to defend the truth and show others the wrong in their way so please feel free to do so.

[Kenneth Sublett]

[Norton]

Not sure I understand just what you are trying to point out here Norton.I guess I need you to define what you are meaning by works then. I r4ally do not believe I have a works base plan of salvation but I could have my blinders on so please let me know just what you are saying.

I am really trying to see why people say baptism is a work of man but not the rest of the faith responses we have been discussing.If I am spouting a works base salvation please point me to my error.

Yogi
I do not think you are a legalist at heart or that you are trying to achieve salvation by works. What I do think is that more than a majority in the Churches of Christ have a flawed view of baptism. My view was traditional CofC and most likely the same as yours until I was fifty years old. My thinking was that I was saved by baptism because I had obeyed a commanded act. That is what I would call salvation by works. Yes, we are to obey God's commanded acts, but, as Paul said, if we want to gain salvation by obeying commands, then we must obey all His commands. We can't just obey one ordinance and say that that is even part of the cause of our salvation. The only reason God saves us is by His grace through our faith in Christ.

But we can harmonize baptism for remission of sins with Paul's teaching about salvation being "not of works" if we quit thinking that baptism saves us because we have obeyed a commanded act, or done a work. Performing the ceremony of baptism is when we are saved, but not why we are saved. Yes, we are actually saved by the ceremony of baptism just like we are actually married by the ceremony of matrimony. If one has faith, he has met the requirements for salvation. That seems to be what the confession is for. Baptizer: "Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?". Convert: "Yes, I believe"
Baptizer: "Because you believe, I now wash away your sins in the name of Jesus Christ."

[Norton]

Baptism is an adoption ceremony, not a statement of belief.  That said, the church is not meant to baptize the unrepentant.

As I have said before, that is an interesting, and I think a Biblical view. Perhaps that is what the Lord meant when he said, "Baptizing them into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yes, "Into" seems to be a more accurate translation for that verse than "in." In English, "in the name of" would mean "by the authority of". "Into the name of" could mean "into the family or possession of".

[yogi bear]

Yogi
I do not think you are a legalist at heart or that you are trying to achieve salvation by works. What I do think is that more than a majority in the Churches of Christ have a flawed view of baptism. My view was traditional CofC and most likely the same as yours until I was fifty years old. My thinking was that I was saved by baptism because I had obeyed a commanded act. That is what I would call salvation by works. Yes, we are to obey God's commanded acts, but, as Paul said, if we want to gain salvation by obeying commands, then we must obey all His commands. We can't just obey one ordinance and say that that is even part of the cause of our salvation. The only reason God saves us is by His grace through our faith in Christ.

But we can harmonize baptism for remission of sins with Paul's teaching about salvation being "not of works" if we quit thinking that baptism saves us because we have obeyed a commanded act, or done a work. Performing the ceremony of baptism is when we are saved, but not why we are saved. Yes, we are actually saved by the ceremony of baptism just like we are actually married by the ceremony of matrimony. If one has faith, he has met the requirements for salvation. That seems to be what the confession is for. Baptizer: "Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God?". Convert: "Yes, I believe"
Baptizer: "Because you believe, I now wash away your sins in the name of Jesus Christ."

Thank you Norton I better understand what you are saying and I can agree with what you have said so again thank you for the clarification.

[Kenneth Sublett]

Being baptized is Obedience to a command: people who are baptized believes that BAPTISM SAVES us because we REQUEST A Good conscience or consciousness.  A good consciousness is parallel to requesting A holy spirit (ours) REQUIRED before Jesus Accepts us as His Disciples who are STUDENTS and probably show up to day as EMPTY PEWS because of the WORKS-INTENSIVE, MONEY-FUELED performance by people who claim that THEY CAN LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD. Notice that I do not silence Paul.

Jesus didn't demand as new infants and freshman in HIS SCHOOL have a Phd in arguing away His FIRST COMMAND.  If Jesus has been sent to show us--not having a clue--how to follow a trail through Grizzly-Bear country JOB ONE is to be silent and OBEY His commands. Obedience is Worship or giving OUR attention to HIS even subtle hints.  No one would say that following a PATTERN for surviving Death is a WORK of any kind.

But we can harmonize baptism for remission of sins with Paul's teaching about salvation being "not of works"  if we quit thinking that baptism saves us because we have obeyed a commanded act, or done a work.

Elias:
Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn [Epistrepho Parallel to Baptism] to the Lord their God.
Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power OF Elias,
             to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,
             and the DISOBEDIENT to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Jesus:
Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he OBEDIENCE by the things which he suffered;
Heb. 5:9 And [THEN] being made PERFECT, he became the author of eternal salvation UNTO ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM;

Paul:
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is
           he which was ORDAINED of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Acts 10:48 And he COMMANDED them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

WORKS are Works of Self Righteousness or WORKS of the Law which has the same meaning.  To say that OBEYING the Word of God in doing ANYTHING is a BAD thing fails to be a DISCIPLE.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Titus 3:5 Not by works OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE,
        but according to his mercy he saved us,
               by the washing of REGENERATION,
               and RENEWING of the Holy Spirit;  [our spirit is regenerated]
                        baptism doth also now save us because OBEYING and being baptized REQUESTS
                        A good conscience or A holy spirit without which you cannot read BLACK text on
                        BROWN paper (2 Cor. 3]

Titus 3:6 Which HE shed on us abundantly THROUGH Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, DISOBEDIENT, deceived,
         serving divers lusts and pleasures, [worship spectacles of Shock and Awe]
         living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

        Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye YIELD yourselves servants
               to OBEY,
               his servants ye are to whom ye OBEY;
 
        whether of sin unto death, [Unto or EIS never means because of DEATH]
        or of OBEDIENCE unto righteousness?
        [Unto or EIS never means because of righteousness]

        Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye WERE the SERVANTS of sin,
             but ye have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
        Rom 6:18 Being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO LET PAUL EXPLAIN HIMSELF: He didn't say NOT BY WORKS!!

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Titus 3:5 Not by works OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE.
        but according to his mercy he saved us,

WORKS OF SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS TODAYS DRIVING PURPOSE as the most BURDEN LADEN or Anxiety-creating day of the week:

ergon occupation  deed, action ergō, opp. logō Lying Wonders
theskelos  IMPURE RELIGION so marvellous, wondrous, always of things, th. erga deeds or works of wonder, Il.3.130, Od.11.610; "theskela eidōs" Call.Fr.anon.385: neut. Adv., eikto de theskelon autō it was wondrous like him, Il.23.107; prob. taken by later poets as,= God-inspired (keleuō）", th. Hermēs" Coluth.126.
     OPPOSITE logos  [personal opinions, personal experiences, rhetoric, singing, playing instruments are all FORBIDDEN WORKS OF SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS] opposite
Opposite epos  IV. in pl., epic poetry, OPPOSITE melē [melody] (lyric poetry), iambeia, dithuramboi, etc., "rhaptōn epeōn aoidoi"  "epea te poiein pros luran t' aeidein" [Lyre and Singing]

HH 5 1 for she loves archery and the slaying of wild beasts in the mountains, the lyre also and dancing and thrilling cries

OBEDIENCE is THE ingredient if one wants to ENROLL in The School of Christ which probably no longer exists

How does he SAVE us?

        by the washing of regeneration,
        and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
               That is OUR unholy spirit becomes A holy spirit

Washing speaks exclusively of baptism: head over heels in water.  It points to nipto which would be used for CEREMONIAL washing.

Loutron (g3067) loo-tron'; from 3068; a bath, i.e. (fig.) baptism: - washing
Louo 3068.  louo, loo´-o; a primary verb; to bathe (the whole person;
      whereas 3538 means to wet a part only,  3538. nipto, nip´-to; to cleanse
      (especially the hands or the feet or the face); ceremonially, to perform ablution:
      and 4150 to wash, cleanse garments exclusively):  was

Regeneration
3824.  paliggenesia, pal-ing-ghen-es-ee´-ah; from 3825 and 1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), i.e. (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specially, Messianic restoration: — regeneration.

The Spirit OF God does not need to become REgenerated or made holy AGAIN.

Regeneration is g3825l Back to our Original State or born again

Titus 3:7 THAT being justified by his grace,
        we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans says that only after we have OBEYED the form or pattern of Jesus' work are we THEN FREE and ABLE to work or OTHERS and not make others WORK FOR YOU to claim the MEDIATING IN SONG AND SERMON ROLE.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

A STAFF and EDIFICE LADED INSTITUTIONS ARE NOT GOOD WORKS BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO "TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT" for our LEARNING which is the God ordained ONE-PIECE PATTERN from the Church in the wilderness  for the NOT ABANDONED Israelite which was never changed.  The Campbell's restoration was to peel off all of the parasites (religious craftspersons) and be A SCHOOL OF CHRIST.

[Jaime]

I came from a very traditional cofc and I never looked at baptism as a work earning anything. Maybe that's because it simply doesn't. What other people feel that we believe is irrelevant. Yes some diligently sought to get to the baptistry come blood or blister, just get the poor soul (believer or not) wet. That is patently wrong on so many levels and ALWAYS has been. And Kenneth is right, it (baptism) is a request for a clear conscience to God in the manner God prescribed.

I always looked at it similar to a marriage ceremony or the making it official, the putting ON of Christ, the clothing ourselves with Christ. Not punching the ticket as a commanded work. Neither did I consider confessing with the muscles of my lips and tongue as a work either. Why? Because like baptism it isn't

[Kenneth Sublett]

I have little doubt that there are many legalists who don't make disciples of those they baptize.

However, I have never heard in various "types" of churches of Christ I have attended a preacher claim any personal input because it was always based on Christ.  Jesus is always given the honor and credit.

Peter says that BAPTISM SAVES.  The only question is HOW does baptism save, and if you ask for or request something based on Jesus I don't know how that could be a demand.

You can say that BAPTISM saves because said it. Naaman had perfectly GOOD WATER but he had to obey.  Whatever Jesus ordains as a way to ASK HIS APPROVAL had better not be disputed.  I wonder whether being buried by another man to do something He could not do is just too demeaning for most pride-filled people.  I can always hear my very young girls pulling away and announcing that I CAN DO IT MYSELF.

[4WD]

I have little doubt that there are many legalists who don't make disciples of those they baptize.

If that is so it has nothing to do with the "legalist" who baptized them. It has to do with the non-belief of the one baptized.

[Jaime]

I've always understood that God does the work in baptism, ie the remitting of sins and conveying the gift of the Holy spirit. The most passive and submissive thing I can think of cannot be a work, especially when it doesn't earn or merit any part of salvation. Any works connotation ascribed to baptism is a a total missing of the meaning and gravity of baptism.

[4WD]

I've always understood that God does the work in baptism, ie the remitting of sins and conveying the gift of the Holy spirit. The most passive and submissive thing I can think of cannot be a work, especially when it doesn't earn or merit any part of salvation. Any works connotation ascribed to baptism is a a total missing of the meaning and gravity of baptism.

[yogi bear]

I've always understood that God does the work in baptism, ie the remitting of sins and conveying the gift of the Holy spirit. The most passive and submissive thing I can think of cannot be a work, especially when it doesn't earn or merit any part of salvation. Any works connotation ascribed to baptism is a a total missing of the meaning and gravity of baptism.

So true 

[RB]

But we can harmonize baptism for remission of sins with Paul's teaching about salvation being "not of works" if we quit thinking that baptism saves us because we have obeyed a commanded act, or done a work.

Just got back from out of town and trying to get caught up on reading everyone's post.

At heart, Yogi, or, anyone else, if they teach that any commanded that we have an active part in that leagally is for the remission of our sins, are guilty before God preaching another gospel.

But we can harmonize baptism for remission of sins with Paul's teaching about salvation being "not of works"

Sir, with all respect, you cannot LEAGALLY. It is IS either by your obedience legally or Jesus' obedience legally, it cannot be BOTH working together

if we quit thinking that baptism saves us because we have obeyed a commanded act, or done a work

Dear sir, that's impossible to quit thinking that, the reason being is because you truly BELIEVE THAT, and, also the reason why is because you teach this to be so!

Yes, we are to obey God's commanded acts, but, as Paul said, if we want to gain salvation by obeying commands, then we must obey all His commands. We can't just obey one ordinance and say that that is even part of the cause of our salvation.

Well, praise be to God you are absolutely correct. The key is legally God can only justify a person IF the law has NO CLAIMS upon them, and ONLY through Jesus' faith, obedience, and righteousness  living before God's law as the representative of HIS PEOPLE offering up his perfect life and giving that life for the sins of his people can God be just and the justifier of them that believe, NOT as a contributing means but as an EVIDENCE of one whom Christ died for!

The only reason God saves us is by His grace through our faith in Christ.

Again, dear soul, this is NOT so legally~but through the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. There's a thread on Ephesians 2:8 that Yogi started that I hope to write on this week, maybe tomorrow, where I shall deal with it more in depth. Practically, baptism and our faith play a part in a practical salvation that we DO enjoy, but impossible is this so legally~for a few reasons one you mention above, but above that would be that Christ's death would have been in vain according to Galatians 2:20 and other related scriptures.

But we can harmonize baptism for remission of sins with Paul's teaching about salvation being "not of works" if we quit thinking that baptism saves us because we have obeyed a commanded act, or done a work.

Brother, IMPOSSIBLE, unless you deal with salvation from legal sense and SEE the need of Christ's life, death and resurrection as the ONLY means of our sins being past over by the Law of God, where the Law Giver remains JUST with no damaged to his PERFECT standard of righteousness! UNTIL you deal with that, then your understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ has some serious holes in your fortress of faith, that you think you now enjoy.

But we can harmonize baptism for remission of sins with Paul's teaching about salvation being "not of works"

Sir, with all respect, you cannot LEAGALLY. It is IS either by your obedience legally or Jesus' obedience legally, it cannot be BOTH working together

if we quit thinking that baptism saves us because we have obeyed a commanded act, or done a work

Dear sir, that's impossible to quit thinking that, the reason being is because you truly BELIEVE THAT, and, also the reason why is because youteach this to be so!

Yes, we are to obey God's commanded acts, but, as Paul said, if we want to gain salvation by obeying commands, then we must obey all His commands. We can't just obey one ordinance and say that that is even part of the cause of our salvation.

Well, praise be to God you are absolutely correct. The key is legally God can only justify a person IF the law has NO CLAIMS upon them, and ONLY through Jesus' faith, obedience, and righteousness  living before God's law as the representative of HIS PEOPLE offering up his perfect life and giving that life for the sins of his people can God be just and the justifier of them that believe, NOT as a contributing means but as an EVIDENCE of one whom Christ died for!

The only reason God saves us is by His grace through our faith in Christ.

Again, dear soul, this is NOT so legally~but through the FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST. There's a thread on Ephesians 2:8 that Yogi started that I hope to write on this week, maybe tomorrow, where I shall deal with it more in depth. Practically, baptism and our faith play a part in a practical salvation that we DO enjoy, but impossible is this so legally~for a few reasons one you mention above, but above that would be that Christ's death would have been in vain according to Galatians 2:20 and other related scriptures.

But we can harmonize baptism for remission of sins with Paul's teaching about salvation being "not of works" if we quit thinking that baptism saves us because we have obeyed a commanded act, or done a work.

Brother, IMPOSSIBLE, unless you deal with salvation from legal sense and SEE the need of Christ's life, death and resurrection as the ONLY means of our sins being past over by the Law of God, where the Law Giver remains JUST with no damaged to his PERFECT standard of righteousness! UNTIL you deal with that, then your understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ has some serious holes in your fortress of faith, that you think you now enjoy.

Performing the ceremony of baptism is when we are saved, but not why we are saved.

Brother, I would agree If you would say this:

Performing the ceremony of baptism is when we are saved....

practically with a knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ~a salvation that would continue to grow and increase AS LONG as we live in the flesh, per Peter 2nd Peter 3.

but not why we are saved.

Amen my brother~and I would add, and not WHEN we were saved legally!

Yes, we are actually saved by the ceremony of baptism just like we are actually married by the ceremony of matrimony.

See, I was correct above when I said:

Dear sir, that's impossible to quit thinking that, the reason being is because you truly BELIEVE THAT, and, also the reason why is because you teach this to be so!

You said:

If one has faith, he has met the requirements for salvation.

Not salvation, BUT for to be baptized, per Philip to the eunuch in Acts 8. See, it is so hard for you to separate baptism from one's sins LEGALLY being forgiven! I would say to you as Christ said to one in the NT...You are not far from the kingdom of God, or from the truth as it is in Jesus Christ! You still are seeing trees as men walking, so you need to back off and consider this a little more closely~you are not quite there as of yet. I say this in all kindness to you.

Because you believe, I now wash away your sins in the name of Jesus Christ."

The emphasis is mine, to point out that NO man has an active part in legally washing away a sinner's sins! I agree that baptism portrays this blessed gospel truth to the eyes just as the gospel does so to our ears, of what God has done for us THROUGH Jesus Christ perfect obedience, NOT ours....for our best efforts has sin mixed with it, even in our religious duties, so sad, but is the truth. Thank God for Jesus Christ our blessed Lord and Saviour.

[Kenneth Sublett]

RB I am afraid that you are confusing Justification/righteousness and Salvation/Remission of sins.  Before, during and after the LAW people were righteous and in relationship with God.  The Law of Moses was added BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION to the Israelites only.  The Law was CARNAL or related to the ceremonial status and IT could not give one A holy spirit..

In the story of Cornelius we grasp that neither man nor swine are UNCLEAN but are purified by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST.  That was to debunk the Jews who believed that they were the only RIGHTEOUS people who could be BAPTIZED to give one A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a Co-perception able to read BLACK text on BROWN Paper. [2 Corinthians 3]

2Sam. 4:11 How much more, when wicked men have slain a RIGHTEOUS person in his own house upon his bed? shall I not therefore now require his blood of your hand, and take you away from the earth?
1Kings 2:32 And the Lord shall return his blood upon his own head, who fell upon two men more RIGHTEOUS and better than he, and slew them with the sword, my father David not knowing thereof, to wit, Abner the son of Ner, captain of the host of Israel, and Amasa the son of Jether, captain of the host of Judah.
1Kings 8:32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the WICKED, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the RIGHTEOUS, to give him according to his RIGHTEOUS.
2Kings 10:9 And it came to pass in the morning, that he went out, and stood, and said to all the people, Ye be RIGHTEOUS: behold, I conspired against my ter, and slew him: but who slew all these?

Hebrew Righteous h6663.  tsadaq, tsaw-dak´; a primitive root; to be (causatively, make) right (in a moral or forensic sense):—cleanse, clear self, (be, do) just(-ice, -ify, -ify self), (be turn to) righteous(-ness).

Greek Righteous g1342. dikaios, dik´-ah-yos; from 1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication, innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): — just, meet, right(-eous).

Cornelius was a righteous person because he was NOT WICKED and was a Godfearer.  However, he needed to be told WHAT TO DO to be save as asking permission to enter The Church, Ekklesia, Synagogue which is a SCHOOL OF CHRIST AND HIS WORD.

A RIGHTEOUS PERSON IS STILL IN THE WORLD: SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD AND NOT INTO EVE.

Salvation is being SAFE FROM THE WORLD: g4991. swthri÷a soteria, so-tay-ree´-ah; feminine of a derivative of 4990 as (properly, abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): — deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

Jesus is the SAVIOUR: g4990. swth/r soter, so-tare´; from 4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ: — saviour.

As long as you are tip-toeing through the TULIPS I don't believe that you can grasp the differernce between being Righteous-VERSUS-Wicked and Salvation which involves YOU obeying the direct commands.  If you insist that a person is like a wet noodle and incapable then you disparage God Who created mankind who was NOT CRIPPLED by the LAW of Moses.

Faith comes by HEARING the Word and FAITH is not a GIFT: Calvin said that it was Supernatural because God gave us the SCRIPTURES and men SENT to preach it.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
           for IT is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom. 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall LIVE by faith.
Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
         against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom. 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto RIGHTEOUSNESS;
and with the mouth confession is made unto SALVATION

The TULIP heresy is DERIVED by isolated proof texts INTENDED to support the warped mind of men who claim that the HIV VIRUS of sin is passed on to a child if the mother had sex NOT INTENDING to "generate."

Jesus said that those who BELIEVE (comply) and ARE BAPTIZED Shall BE SAVED.

Jesus and others WENT TO THE WATER to be baptized: please don't call Jesus a LIAR.  God did not name Him a SON until  He obeyed the Isaiah 1 prophecy and WENT OUT to BE baptized.  Active Verbs are not ANTI CHRISTIAN.

[Kenneth Sublett]

Scott defined "the gift of the holy spirit" as OUR spirit which is A holy spirit after "our sins have been washed away." Peter calls this A good conscience.

NOTICE ALL OF THE ACTIVE VERBS

Speaking of the instrumental-trinitarian idolatry at Mount Sinai

Rom. 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Rom 10:8 But what saith it?
        The WORD is nigh thee, even in thy mouth,
        and in thy heart: that is,
        the word of FAITH,  [rhema or spoken LOGOS: the Regulative Principle]
        which we PREACH;

Rom 10:9 That if thou
        shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
        and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart
              THAT God hath RAISED him from the DEAD,
              thou shalt be saved.

RECYCLE ONE Notice that being RIGHTEOUS does not mean that we are SAVED

Rom 10:10 For with the heart
        man believeth unto righteousness; and
        with the mouth CONFESSION is made unto salvation.

That is not a Work of the Law nor a work of SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS

Faith makes a God fearing person have the right standing: not ceremonially impure
But, Confession is unto salvation.  Faith only would not save you says this verse.

RECYCLE TWO

hear, belief, call upon the name, must believe, must hear, preachers must be sent:
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith,
        Whosoever BELIEVETH on him
        shall NOT be ASHAMED.

Now, NOT ASHAMED is not the opposite of BEING SAVED (by faith only).

Rom 10:12 For there is NO DIFFERENCE between the Jew and the Greek:
Rom 10:13 for the SAME Lord over all is rich unto ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM.
        For WHOSOEVER shall CALL upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter preached this in Acts 2: God calls us and we call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. When they asked what must WE DO to be saved, Peter commanded them to repent AND be baptized FOR or in order to the remission of sins.

WHAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD

    Example One. Acts 2:38    baptism is into the NAME or calling upon the name.
    Example Two. Acts 22:16  Baptism washes away sins because it CALLS upon the Name.
    Example Three: 1 Pe 3:21 Baptism saves because it ASKS for A good conscience or A holy spirit. 

How then shall they CALL on him in whom
        They have not BELIEVED? and

how shall they believe in him of whom they have not HEARD? and
how shall they hear without a PREACHER (Kerusso Herald)? Rom 10:14

SEEMS THAT CALVIN IS CORRECT: NO ONE HEARS THE SPIRIT OR BELIEVES WITHOUT HEARING THE WORD.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach (Go and herald),
        except they be SENT? as it is written,
        How beautiful are the FEET of them that
        reach the gospel of peace, and BRING glad tidings of good things

NOW NOTICE THAT HE THAT OBEY THE GOSPEL IS THE ONE WHO HATH BELIEVED.  Preachers are only those SENT.

But they have
        not all OBEYED the GOSPEL. For Esaias saith, Lord,
        who hath BELIEVED our report? Rom 10:16

Calvin and reading the text shows that GOD GAVE US FAITH by giving us the SCRIPTURES.  Calvin says another need is someone SENT to preach the same WORD.

So then FAITH cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD of God. Rom 10:17
        But I say, Have they not heard?
        Yes verily, their sound WENT INTO all the earth,
        and their words unto the ends of the world. Rom 10:18
But I say, Did not Israel know?
        First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people,
        and by a foolish nation I will anger you. Rom 10:19
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not;
        I was MADE MANIFEST unto them that asked not after me. Rom 10:20
            But to Israel he saith,
            All day long I have stretched forth my HANDS
            unto a DISOBEDIENT and GAINSAYING people. Rom 10:21

You are an APISTOS or believeth not which means treacherous if you do not believe that:
   He that believeth and is baptized SHALL BE saved.

IT LOOKS LIKE PAUL GAVE ALL OF THE STEPS WHICH SCOTT PROBABLY HAVE READ.  BAPTISM is the way we CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Jesus says that he that is BAPTIZED shall be saved.  Peter says BAPTISM SAVES US because this is the WAY Jesus commanded. 
Paul is told that Baptism WASHES AWAY SIN because THAT is JESUS COMMAND as a way to CALL ON HIS NAME (singular) and REQUEST A holy spirit or a good conscience.  Why do you suppose that almost the totality of THEOLOGY works so hard to REPUDIATE God and Scriptures when it would be according to the PATTERN to at least READ the Scriptures. The reason is really, really spooky.