Do Catholics Worship Mary?

[winsome]

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS FORUM THAT I HAVE TO MAKE A POST IN LITTLE BITS!!!!!

Do Catholics Worship Mary?
The answer to this depends on what is meant by "worship". In the modern sense of the word, the one normally used by Protestants, the answer is definitely NO because the meaning of the word has been drastically narrowed to mean something that is due to God alone.

However the word 'worship' has an older and more general meaning as I will explain in a moment. In that sense (and I emphasis that sense) the answer is yes.

Latria and Dulia
The official language of the Catholic Church is Latin, not English. From the earliest times it has maintained a distinction between the honour and reverence due to God alone and the lesser honour that can be given to creatures. The former is know as latria and is usually translated into English as Adoration. The latter is dulia and is normally translated into English as Veneration. Mary is given a special level of dulia known as hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia").

Continued. in next post.

[winsome]

Worship.
According to the Online Etymology Dictionary the English word worship has a general meaning of being worthy, honour:
O.E. worðscip, wurðscip (Anglian), weorðscipe (W.Saxon) "condition of being worthy, honor, renown," from weorð "worthy" (see worth) + -scipe (see -ship). Sense of "reverence paid to a supernatural or divine being" is first recorded c.1300. The original sense is preserved in the title worshipful (c.1300). The verb is recorded from c.1200.
In that sense it can be applied to humans as well as God.

The Protestant Archbishop Thomas Cranmer wrote the Anglican book of common prayer. The marriage ceremony in use until quite recently included the line from the groom to the bride "with my body I thee worship"

In England we still use the term in that sense for addressing Mayors or one level of the judiciary.
His or Her Worship is an honorific prefix for mayors, Justices of the Peace and magistrates in present or former Commonwealth realms. In spoken address, these officials are addressed as Your Worship or referred to as His or Her Worship. (Wikipedia).

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that 'worship' in that sense is an 'umbrella' word that covers a range of actions.

Therefore you can find old documents that use this archaic or umbrella sense of the word regarding Mary, as in this (which anti-Catholic Protestants love to quote).
"For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them"
Encyclical Of Pope Pius X On The Immaculate Conception Given at Rome in St. Peter's on the second day of February, 1904. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

Continued in next post

[winsome]

Equivocation
Equivocation is a logical fallacy which is easy to fall into in English where words have multiple meanings.
"a fallacy based on the use of the same term in different senses, esp as the middle term of a syllogism, as the badger lives in the bank, and the bank is in the High Street, so the badger lives in the High Street" (Collins Dictionary).

To take the word "worship" from an old document where it is used in an archaic or umbrella sense and then use it as though it was intended in a modern (Protestant) sense would be equivocation, and a perversion of the truth.

There is a good article on this here: http://catholicexchange.com/war-of-the-words-who-do-we-worship

(End)

[Amo]

We pray to those whom we worship.

[KiwiChristian]

the rosary contains TEN TIMES more prayers to MARY than to GOD.

"For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them" ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION Given at Rome in St. Peter's on the second day of February, 1904, in the first year of Our Pontificate. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html


Now, you catholics can play around with word-games like dulia and hyperdulia, etc. but sorry, worship IS worship.

Definition of "worship" : Ardent devotion; adoration.

bishop strossmeyer (spelling?) said "we have made a Goddess out of mary"

of course, comments like these don't help!

"Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom

"All those who seek Mary's protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV


Pope Pius IX in 1854  "Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. " 

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary." Doesn't this sound like worship?

[AVZ]

I wrote this back in 2015...says it all:


Some time ago someone pointed out to me the book "The Glories of Mary" and if I wanted to know more about the position of Mary in the Catholic Church, it would give me more
insight.

The book is written by Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liquori, who was a Catholic Bishop, Doctor of the Church, canonized in 1839
The book is approved by the Catholic Church and bears the Imprimatur  and Nihil Obstat of the Catholic Church which basically means that the teaching in this book is correct
and does not obtain anothing objectable.
Its also a thick book, 900 pages, and I have managed to struggle through about a third sofar...but I am not sure if I can go any further.

What I am reading really blows me off my socks. I had no idea the position of Mary was so prominent. I also think things have been taken waaaaaaaaaay too far.
Let me post a few passages from the book:





"Our Lady will honor in the next world those who honor her in this." Is there anyone not aware of the promise made by Mary herself in the words of Ecclesiasticus: They that
explain me (Mary) shall have life everlasting (Ecclus 24:31)? The Church applies this passage to Mary in the Office of the Immaculate Conception.

"Let us therefore always honor with our hearts and tongues this Blessed Lady so that she may conduct us into the kingdom of the blessed."

"...all graces are dispensed by Mary, and that all who are saved obtain salvation through Mary."


"Let us love Jesus and Mary and become saints."


in calling Mary our mediatress, I mean that she is a mediatrix of grace, and that her office differs from that of Jesus Christ, who is our principal and sole mediator of
justice. In calling Mary omnipotent (as Saint John Damascene, Saint Peter Damian, Saint Bonaventure, Saint Cosmas of Jerusalem, and others have done), I intend to signify
that, as Mother of God, she obtains from him by her prayers all that she asks for the benefit of her clients. Taken absolutely, neither mediation nor omnipotence is
attributable to Mary, since she is only a creature. In calling her our hope, I mean that all graces (as Saint Bernard teaches) pass through her hands.


The Abbot Rupert also says that if Jesus is the king of the universe, then Mary is its queen. And Saint Bernardine of Siena assures us that all creatures who serve God must
also serve Mary. All angels, all men, all things in heaven and on earth, inasmuch as they are subject to God's dominion, are also subject to Mary. That is why the Abbot
Guerric turns to Mary and says: "Continue, O Mary, to feel that all that your Son possesses is yours. Have no hesitation in acting as a queen, as Mother of the King, and as
his spouse, for both the kingdom and the power over it belong to you."


O sublime virgin, I know that as queen of the universe you are also my queen. In a very special manner, I want to dedicate myself to your service, so that you can do with me
whatever you please. And so I say to you with Saint Bonaventure, "O Lady, I want to subject myself to your reign, so that you rule over me and govern me in everything. Do not
abandon me to myself." Command me; use me as you please; yes, even punish me if I disobey you. Any chastisement coming from you will be helpful to me. Being your servant means
more to me than being the ruler of the whole world. I am yours; save me (Ps 118:94). O Mary, accept me as your own, and procure my salvation. I have no longer any desire to
belong to myself. I give myself to you entirely.
If in the past I have been remiss in your service, if I have lost so many opportunities to honor you, I now want you to number me among your most loyal and devoted servants. I
do not want anyone to surpass me in loving you, my amiable queen. This I promise and this I hope with your help to accomplish. Amen.



There is no doubt, then, that in every battle with hell we shall surely win if we fly to Mary and repeat over and over again: "We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God."
O how many victories have the faithful won over the forces of hell because they had recourse to Mary with this short but powerful prayer!


"Ah, my most sweet Mary," exclaimed Saint John Berchmans, S.J., "happy the man that loves you. If I love Mary, I am certain of final perseverance and I shall obtain whatever I
ask from God." Therefore, this holy youth never tired of renewing his resolution and of repeating often to himself: "I will love Mary! I will love Mary!"


Mary is the mother of all sinners who wish to repent. And as such, she cannot help but pity them. In fact, she feels the misfortunes of her children as though they were her
own.


"O Lady, O my Mother! On account of my sins I deserve to be abandoned by you and punished according to my just desserts. But even though you would banish me and take my life,
I will still trust in you and hope with a firm hope that you will save me. My entire confidence is in you. Give me the grace to die before your image, recommending myself to
your mercy. That will convince me that I will not be lost and that I will go to praise you in heaven, in the company of so many of your servants who, when dying, called on you
for help, and who were all saved by your powerful intercession."


I come to you (Mary). You are able to help me. Do help me. Do not tell me that you are unable to help me, because I know you are all-powerful and can obtain from God whatever
you ask him. And if you say you cannot help me, then tell me to whom I can go for help.


Later, in the same book of Proverbs, these words are applied to Mary: He that shall find me, shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord (Prov 8:35). "Pay
attention to these words," exclaims Saint Bonaventure, "you that desire the kingdom of God. Honor Mary and you shall find life and eternal salvation."


Listen to the devout Bernardine de Bustis: "Do not be afraid, O sinner, even if you have committed every kind of sin. Run to this lady and you will find her hands filled with
mercy. She desires more to do you good than you can desire to receive favors from her."


Behold, O Mother of God, Mary, my hope, behold me at your feet, a poor sinner begging for mercy. All the faithful all over the world proclaim you the "refuge of sinners." You
are then my refuge, and you must save me.


I fly to your protection. Jesus wants me to turn to you, so that, to his glory and yours, both his blood and your prayers may help me to be saved. It is Jesus who sends me to
you for help.


Happy the man, says Mary, watching daily at my gates, waiting at my doorposts (Prov 8:34).


And if you protect me, what shall I fear? I fear nothing. Not from my sins, because you can repair the damage I have done. Not from the devils, because you are more powerful
than all hell together. Not even from your son, who is so justly angry with me, because at one word from you he will be appeased.
In you, O Mother of my God, I have the greatest confidence. From you I expect the grace to grieve for my sins as I ought. From you I hope for the strength never to fall again.
If I ever become ill again, you, O heavenly physician, can heal me. If my sins have weakened me, your help can make me strong. O Mary, I hope for everything from you, because
you are all-powerful with God. Amen


You are the Queen of Heaven. You reign over the universe.
Let this be to your eternal glory, that you have saved a wretch already condemned to hell and have led him to your kingdom where, at your feet,hope ever to love, to bless, to
thank you eternally. O Mary, I shall be waiting for you. Do not leave me without your consolation at the moment of death. So be it. Amen. Amen.


"O my Lady, you alone are my consolation from God, the guide for my path, the strength for my weakness, the wealth for my poverty, the medicine for my wounds, the assuagement
of my sorrows, the severing of my fetters, the hope of my salvation. Hear my prayers, have pity on my sighs, O my Lady, my refuge, my life, my help, my hope, and my strength."


O Mother of holy love, our life, our refuge, and our hope! You know that your son, Jesus Christ, was not content himself with being our perpetual advocate with the Eternal
Father. He also wanted you to act as our advocate to obtain divine mercy for us.


Saint Ephrem says to Mary: "You are the only advocate of sinners and the helpless."


Saint Thomas of Villanova: "We do not know of any refuge but you. You are the only one in whom we trust. You are the only one to whom we look for aid." O Mary, we poor sinners cannot find any other refuge but you. You, to whom we all have turned, are our only hope and we confide our salvation to you. You are our only advocate with Jesus Christ.


"Look to her, you sinners who are lost, and she will lead you to port." Poor sinners, you who are lost, do not despair; raise your eyes to this beautiful star and regain the
breath of hope, because she will bring you out of the storm and lead you to the port of salvation.


"Before Mary," says the saint, "there was nobody who dared stay God's hand. But now, whenever God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she
restrains her son's hand and withholds him from punishing.


One day, the same Saint Bridget heard Jesus say to his mother: "You would obtain mercy even for Lucifer if he humbly asked for it." That proud spirit, however, would never
humble himself so much as to beg for Mary's protection. Nevertheless, were it possible for Lucifer to humiliate himself enough to ask Mary for her protection, she would have
the power and mercy to obtain his pardon and salvation from God.


"As Queen, she possesses by right the whole kingdom of her son."


"There are just as many creatures serving Mary as there are serving God."


"All things in heaven and earth are under God's dominion so that they are, at the same time, under Mary's dominion.  She has dominion and power over all creation."


"Jesus is King of Justice.  Mary is Queen of Mercy."


"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord.  She establishes the law by which God acts."


"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord obliging him to be merciful to everyone for whom she intercedes." 

[winsome]

the rosary contains TEN TIMES more prayers to MARY than to GOD.

A claim that is trivial, mathematically incorrect, and demonstrates a lack of understanding of Catholicism.

Mathematics:
"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women..." Not a prayer but a statements from scripture. However if you think that calling Mary, 'blessed among women' is a prayer to her, then the next statement "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus' is a prayer to God.
So far then 50:50 Mary and God.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our death, Amen". Since protestants refuse the accept that "praying to Mary" is only asking her for her prayers, then by their own logic asking her for her prayers is not  "praying to Mary".

Before the 10 Hail Marys there is an Our Father -  a prayer to God
After the 10 Hail Marys there is the "Glory be..."

"Glory be to the Father," – a prayer of praise to God the Father
"and to the Son," – a prayer of praise to God the Son
"and to the Holy Spirit..." – a prayer of praise to God the Holy Spirit.

Thus we have 4 prayers to God and none to Mary.

Overall then, depending on how you count the "blesseds" of the Hail Mary there are more prayers to God than to Mary in the Rosary. 

[winsome]

the rosary contains TEN TIMES more prayers to MARY than to GOD.

"For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them" ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X ON THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION Given at Rome in St. Peter's on the second day of February, 1904, in the first year of Our Pontificate. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

Answered in the opening posts. Please read them

Now, you catholics can play around with word-games like dulia and hyperdulia, etc. but sorry, worship IS worship.

Beans are beans
But there are cannellini beans, kidney beans, french beans, runner beans, lima beans, broad beans, adzuki beans, butter beans etc.

[winsome]

Definition of "worship" : Ardent devotion; adoration.

WORSHIP
Definition Acknowledgment of another's worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God's infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=37215

[winsome]

bishop strossmeyer (spelling?) said "we have made a Goddess out of mary"

of course, comments like these don't help!

"Sinners receive pardon by the intercession of Mary alone." St. John Chrysostom

"All those who seek Mary's protection will be saved for all eternity." Pope Benedict XV


Pope Pius IX in 1854  "Let all the children of the Catholic Church ... Proceed to worship, invoke, and pray to the most blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God. " 

They don't help when you give no sources for these supposed "quotes".
Why not?
Are you afraid they will be exposed as fraudulent or extracted out of context like your other quotes.?

[winsome]

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary." Doesn't this sound like worship?

Hail! Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope.
Mary is the mother of Jesus who is Mercy, and Jesus is our life, our sweetness, and our hope.

To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.
To you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
We (the banished children of Eve) are addressing Mary

Turn then, O most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy towards us;
Mary (our gracious intercessor) is merciful as we are all called to be merciful

and after this our exile, (when we die)

show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Show us Jesus – Mary always points us to Jesus

O clement! O loving! O sweet Virgin Mary!
She is all of these

Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God,
Asking for her intercession
that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Let's have the whole prayer not pervert the truth by missing out the most important part

[RB]

Winsome~Can you comment on Reply #5?

[winsome]

Winsome~Can you comment on Reply #5?

I only saw it about an hour ago.

I'll come back to it later.

[winsome]

Hi AVZ

I have not read the "Glories of Mary" but I have located a copy on Google books.

Please can you give me a couple of examples of what you find objectionable, why you find them objectionable and the actual page number of the quotes. I'll then try and give you a response.

Thanks

[AVZ]

Hi AVZ

I have not read the "Glories of Mary" but I have located a copy on Google books.

Please can you give me a couple of examples of what you find objectionable, why you find them objectionable and the actual page number of the quotes. I'll then try and give you a response.

Thanks

Everything in bold I find objectionable.
I have a digital copy of the book so the page numbers won't tally with yours.
All quotes come from the first chapters of the book.

[winsome]

Everything in bold I find objectionable.
I have a digital copy of the book so the page numbers won't tally with yours.
All quotes come from the first chapters of the book.

Then pick one and tell me why you find it objectionable.

[Amo]

Objections to statements in following prayers underlined, my comments in blue.

A NIGHT PRAYER TO
OUR BLESSED MOTHER

Night is falling dear Mother, long day is o'er;
Before thy image I am kneeling once more
To thank thee for keeping me safe this day,
To ask thee this night to keep evil away.

They are kneeling before an image of Mary.  Thanking her for her protection, not God's, and asking her, not God to keep evil away.

Many times have I fallen Mother dear;
Many graces neglected since last I knelt here;
Wilt thou not in pity, my own Mother Mild,
Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child?

We cannot ask forgiveness of God through another, and expect to receive the same.  If I sin against you, I must confess to you, if I want your forgiveness.  Refusing to do so, will be refusing to humble myself before you, and ask for that which I need, which of course I will not receive if I do not do so.  How much more does this apply to our sins against God?  All sin is against God. 

It would be one thing, if because of circumstances beyond our control, the only way we could ask forgiveness was through another. But this is not the case.  Jesus has made it possible for each of us to approach God the Father directly, and receive forgiveness from the same in His precious and holy name.  Thus when we seek to obtain forgiveness from God through another than Christ, we will not receive the same, since God has made it possible for each of us to approach Him for the same through His Son Jesus Christ.  He didn't just make it possible, He payed the ultimate price to make it so.  It is an affront to God to seek forgiveness from Him from another than Christ, who sacrificed all for the same.

The old covenant days of needing another to be a go between for the forgiveness of our sins, are over.  Christ is the go between, and High Preist of the new covenant.  We can receive forgiveness through no other.

I am going to sleep now, day's work is done;
Its hours and its moments have passed one by one.
God Who will judge me, has counted them all;
He has numbered each grace, He has counted each fall;

In His book they are written against the last day.
Oh! Mother Ask Jesus to wash them away.
For one drop of His Blood for sinners was spilt,
Is sufficient to cleanse the world of its guilt.

She cannot do that for us.  We must do it for ourselves, or it will not happen.

And if er' the dawn I should draw my last breath;
The sleep I take be the long sleep of death;
Be near me Mother for dear Jesus' sake.
When at eternity shore my soul shall awake.

Amen.


THE PRAYER
A SALUTATION TO THE IMMACULATE.
(For the 150th Anniversary
of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)

O Immaculate Virgin Mary,
Mother of God and Our Mother:
Queen of Heaven and Earth,
Mediatrix of every grace!

The above is blasphemy.  Grace comes to us through Christ alone, who was and is God.  John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Mary was a sinful fallen human being like the rest of us.  The scriptures say nowhere that grace came, or comes by her.

Thou through whom dost shine the whole splendor
and magnificence of the Trinity!

More blasphemy.  In Christ alone is all the fulness of the Godhead.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

O Fount of Light!
O Light of all lights!
O shining Brightness of the Eternal Light!

More blasphemy.  Christ is the light of the world, and God is light in whome there is no darkness. 

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

I Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

O spotless Mirror of the Divine Majesty!
O Window upon the Divine Nature!
O Portal opening unto Eternity!
O blessed Gate of Heaven!
O Doorway thru which has shone the Light of men!
O Door of the Most High King!
O Horizon out of which is arisen the Sun of Justice!
O Promontory above the Ocean of Divinity!
O Watchtower before the blazing Majesty of God!
O Star of the Sea!
O Star of Heaven, who alone has crushed all the Stars
fallen from Heaven!

All blasphemy.  All attributes of Christ who is God, given to Mary.

O Morning Star, who has merited to usurp the name of the first fallen Star!
Thou who dost now gaze upon the wondrous abundance of the Divine Vision,
as the One closer to the Face of God than all creatures!
Rejoice O Thou, who has borne the Clarity of the Eternal Light!
Rejoice, O glorious and mystical City of God!
Rejoice, O Thou, who art more glorious than the Sun,
more beautiful than the Moon,
who dost shine more golden than the dawn,
more brightly than the stars.
Rejoice O Mother of the Lamb, the Light of the City of
God, who has made Thee shine forever with His own incomparable Light!
Rejoice, O Immaculate Virgin,
who dost hold the Light of God in the palms of Thy hands,
who dost behold the Child Jesus,
the Eternal Light,
in wondrous glory for all eternity!
Rejoice O Most Blessed Virgin,
for it is through Thee that all the Angels of Heaven
and all the Choirs of the Elect
art enlightened and filled with the Incomparable Radiance!

Absolute unequivocal blasphemy.

O Immaculate Mother,
lead us to Heaven,
inflame us with the Divine Love,
let shine upon us that same light of glory
which Thou dost behold forever!
Let us see What Thou dost see and gaze upon Him in Trinity,
that we may share the fullness of Thy Heart's joy forever!
Let it be!
Let it be!

Amen.

No, but Christ leads the way.  Those who look to Mary to lead them to heaven, will be lead straight to the lake of fire.  Please turn your eyes away from Mary, and unto Jesus.

PRAYER OF POPE PIUS XII
Consecration To The Blessed Virgin

Most Holy Virgin Mary,
tender Mother of all,
to fulfill the desires of the Sacred Heart
and the request of the Vicar of your Son on earth,
we consecrate ourselves
and our families
to your Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart,
O Queen of the Most Holy Rosary,
and we recommend to you,
all the people of our country
and all the world.

Please accept our consecration,
dearest Mother,
and use us as you wish
to accomplish your designs upon the world.

O Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary,
Queen of the Most Holy Rosary,
and Queen of the World, rule over us,
together with the Sacred Heart of Jesus Christ, Our King.
Save us from the spreading flood of modern paganism;
kindle in our hearts and homes the love of purity,
the practice of a virtuous life,
an ardent zeal for souls,
and a desire to pray the rosary more faithfully.

We come with confidence to you,
O Throne of Grace and Mother of Fair Love.
Inflame us with the same Divine Fire
which has inflamed your own Sorrowful
and Immaculate Heart.
Make our hearts and homes your shrine,
and through us,
make the Heart of Jesus,
together with your rule,
triumphant in every heart and home.

I absolutely refuse the same.  I will have no other God's before Him alone who is God.  All who think to share the rule of their hearts and minds with any other than Jesus Christ, are lost souls.  Christ absolutely did not come to earth to establish a co-rulership of humanity with Mary.  This doctrine is straight from hell, and those who believe and practice according to it, will be lead directly to the lake of fire.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[winsome]

Amo,
From past posts I know that you come to these things with a hostile and hateful attitude to Catholics and the  Catholic Church that means you are just looking for something to complain about and have no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint. Were I to explain all these points it would make no difference to you. From past experience you would just ignore my responses and lay down another barrage of objections. You probably have them all lined up already.

You haven't responded to the points I have made already in this thread except for one meaningless comment. Why should I waste my time with this?

If anyone wants to see some responses, have a look at this thread where Amo was churning out the same anti-Catholic bile.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/what-catholic-doctrine-or-beliefs-are-in-error/

[KiwiChristian]

Amo,
From past posts I know that you come to these things with a hostile and hateful attitude to Catholics and the  Catholic Church that means you are just looking for something to complain about and have no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint.

Again, you are attacking the person rather than what the person says.

[Alan]

Amo,
From past posts I know that you come to these things with a hostile and hateful attitude to Catholics and the  Catholic Church that means you are just looking for something to complain about and have no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint. Were I to explain all these points it would make no difference to you. From past experience you would just ignore my responses and lay down another barrage of objections. You probably have them all lined up already.

You haven't responded to the points I have made already in this thread except for one meaningless comment. Why should I waste my time with this?

If anyone wants to see some responses, have a look at this thread where Amo was churning out the same anti-Catholic bile.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/what-catholic-doctrine-or-beliefs-are-in-error/

You won't get anything but criticism and discourse from this guy, anyone that disagrees with his views is repeatedly pounced upon. No fruit there. just division. 

[Amo]

Amo,
From past posts I know that you come to these things with a hostile and hateful attitude to Catholics and the  Catholic Church that means you are just looking for something to complain about and have no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint. Were I to explain all these points it would make no difference to you. From past experience you would just ignore my responses and lay down another barrage of objections. You probably have them all lined up already.

You haven't responded to the points I have made already in this thread except for one meaningless comment. Why should I waste my time with this?

If anyone wants to see some responses, have a look at this thread where Amo was churning out the same anti-Catholic bile.
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/seventh-day-adventist-forum-(sda)/what-catholic-doctrine-or-beliefs-are-in-error/

Yes I know, anyone who disagrees with Catholics and will actually tell them defending their own position as well, hates Catholics. All who disagree with and will not submit to Catholic teaching, hate Catholics. Their all anti-Catholic bigots. Never mind all the Marian prayers which so often apply attributes which belong only to God and our Savior Jesus Christ to Mary, all who bring this up as wrong only do it because they hate Catholics. They should all just shut up and accept that Catholics do no wrong in this or anything else, because thinking so just means you hate Catholics. All who will love Catholics must either agree with them, or remain silent if they do not, otherwise they hate Catholics. Yea, thats the ticket.

My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was beaten, tortured, spit upon, and crucified because He kept trying to tell those whom He loved the truth that they did not want to hear. He also told His followers that they should expect the same if they will pick up their crosses and follow Him. I don't hate you Winsome, I love you. You just think I hate you because you don't want to hear what I have to say because it is not what you want to hear. People who disagree do not have to hate each other, though they certainly may choose to do so, and so very often do.

[chosenone]

Many RC's in the world do worship or venerate Mary.  Jesus deliberately played down her role in his life probably because He knew this would happen.

[Amo]

You won't get anything but criticism and discourse from this guy, anyone that disagrees with his views is repeatedly pounced upon. No fruit there. just division.

There is no fruit in pretending to agree when you don't in pursuit of a false unity. What fruit do you speak of? Some fruit is good, other fruits are forbidden.

[KiwiChristian]

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS FORUM THAT I HAVE TO MAKE A POST IN LITTLE BITS!!!!!

Do Catholics Worship Mary?
The answer to this depends on what is meant by "worship". In the modern sense of the word, the one normally used by Protestants, the answer is definitely NO because the meaning of the word has been drastically narrowed to mean something that is due to God alone.

However the word 'worship' has an older and more general meaning as I will explain in a moment. In that sense (and I emphasis that sense) the answer is yes.

Latria and Dulia
The official language of the Catholic Church is Latin, not English. From the earliest times it has maintained a distinction between the honour and reverence due to God alone and the lesser honour that can be given to creatures. The former is know as latria and is usually translated into English as Adoration. The latter is dulia and is normally translated into English as Veneration. Mary is given a special level of dulia known as hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia").

Continued. in next post.

catholic word games. worship is worship.

I mean, come on my friend:

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary." Doesn't this sound like worship?

[AVZ]

The adoration of Mary is a rejection of the gospel by the Catholic Church.
God personally came down to earth in the form of Jesus, He walked with man and He made Himself directly available to man.
He said: "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I give you peace"

The Catholic Church has opened a direct attack on God's love and mercy.
They have made God the Father out to be someone who is too preoccupied to bother about us people, and they have made Jesus out to be somewhat indifferent and a bully.
We cannot or should not go to the Father or Jesus directly, imagine you catch them at a bad time. They may be busy with something else, or maybe they are not in a good mood.

No, we should go to Mary instead.
Then Mary can go to Jesus and soften Him up. After all Jesus can't refuse anything His mother asks from Him.
And then Jesus can go to the Father and perhaps convince Him to listen. After all the Father can't really refuse anything Jesus asks from Him.

So, it's kind of risky to go to Jesus or the Father if you want anything. They are not really there for you.
No, if you want results, then you should go to Mary. She is the one who listens to everybody and she is the one that can make things happen for you.

And if you are in doubt Mary has enough ammunition to make a case for you with Jesus, then you should also pray to the saints.
Surely if not only Mary but also a whole horde of saints land on an unwilling Jesus...well then He certainly has to cave in.

[chosenone]

The adoration of Mary is a rejection of the gospel by the Catholic Church.
God personally came down to earth in the form of Jesus, He walked with man and He made Himself directly available to man.
He said: "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I give you peace"

The Catholic Church has opened a direct attack on God's love and mercy.
They have made God the Father out to be someone who is too preoccupied to bother about us people, and they have made Jesus out to be somewhat indifferent and a bully.
We cannot or should not go to the Father or Jesus directly, imagine you catch them at a bad time. They may be busy with something else, or maybe they are not in a good mood.

No, we should go to Mary instead.
Then Mary can go to Jesus and soften Him up. After all Jesus can't refuse anything His mother asks from Him.
And then Jesus can go to the Father and perhaps convince Him to listen. After all the Father can't really refuse anything Jesus asks from Him.

So, it's kind of risky to go to Jesus or the Father if you want anything. They are not really there for you.
No, if you want results, then you should go to Mary. She is the one who listens to everybody and she is the one that can make things happen for you.

And if you are in doubt Mary has enough ammunition to make a case for you with Jesus, then you should also pray to the saints.
Surely if not only Mary but also a whole horde of saints land on an unwilling Jesus...well then He certainly has to cave in.

Yes I always think its sad that so many RC's cant believe that we now have access directly to God through His Son. Why pray to dead fallible men and women when we dont need to(and when we are specifically told not to).

Its all very superstitious this praying to Mary and the saints. Making someone a 'saint' is entirely unbiblical as well.   

[winsome]

You won't get anything but criticism and discourse from this guy, anyone that disagrees with his views is repeatedly pounced upon. No fruit there. just division.

I remember having cut ands paste wars with Amo. He would cut and paste diatribes from questionable web sites accusing the Jesuits of everything under the sun. I retaliated by posting stuff from Jesuit web sites and the Catholic Encyclopaedia (and this was the days when you could make long posts without them crashing out). It was a total waste of time and server space.

[winsome]

The adoration of Mary is a rejection of the gospel by the Catholic Church.
God personally came down to earth in the form of Jesus, He walked with man and He made Himself directly available to man.
He said: "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I give you peace"

The Catholic Church has opened a direct attack on God's love and mercy.
They have made God the Father out to be someone who is too preoccupied to bother about us people, and they have made Jesus out to be somewhat indifferent and a bully.
We cannot or should not go to the Father or Jesus directly, imagine you catch them at a bad time. They may be busy with something else, or maybe they are not in a good mood.

No, we should go to Mary instead.
Then Mary can go to Jesus and soften Him up. After all Jesus can't refuse anything His mother asks from Him.
And then Jesus can go to the Father and perhaps convince Him to listen. After all the Father can't really refuse anything Jesus asks from Him.

So, it's kind of risky to go to Jesus or the Father if you want anything. They are not really there for you.
No, if you want results, then you should go to Mary. She is the one who listens to everybody and she is the one that can make things happen for you.

And if you are in doubt Mary has enough ammunition to make a case for you with Jesus, then you should also pray to the saints.
Surely if not only Mary but also a whole horde of saints land on an unwilling Jesus...well then He certainly has to cave in.

AVZ,

It seems you just want to attack Catholics.
You raised the Glories of Mary. In post #15 I suggested you picked just one of the issues you had and explain your objections. We could then discuss it.
No reply from you to that. Now you just launch into another attack.

You, Amo and chosenone have a pattern of just slagging off Catholics. No evidence is provided just assertions.

To you, Amo and chosenone I make two points:

1. The rules of this forum state: 1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual's belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say "The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."

2. There is a maxim: That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

[winsome]

Lest anyone thinks I am dodging Amo's unjustified assertions in post #16 I will take time to reply to one of them. 

Many times have I fallen Mother dear;
Many graces neglected since last I knelt here;
Wilt thou not in pity, my own Mother Mild,
Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child?"

We cannot ask forgiveness of God through another, and expect to receive the same.  If I sin against you, I must confess to you, if I want your forgiveness.  Refusing to do so, will be refusing to humble myself before you, and ask for that which I need, which of course I will not receive if I do not do so.  How much more does this apply to our sins against God?  All sin is against God. 

It would be one thing, if because of circumstances beyond our control, the only way we could ask forgiveness was through another. But this is not the case.  Jesus has made it possible for each of us to approach God the Father directly, and receive forgiveness from the same in His precious and holy name.  Thus when we seek to obtain forgiveness from God through another than Christ, we will not receive the same, since God has made it possible for each of us to approach Him for the same through His Son Jesus Christ.  He didn't just make it possible, He payed the ultimate price to make it so.  It is an affront to God to seek forgiveness from Him from another than Christ, who sacrificed all for the same.

The old covenant days of needing another to be a go between for the forgiveness of our sins, are over.  Christ is the go between, and High Preist of the new covenant.  We can receive forgiveness through no other

This suffers from the Protestant flaw in thinking in either/or terms.
We need to think in both/and terms.

It's not either Jesus or Mary (or someone else). It can be both Jesus and Mary (or someone else).

In the NT John instructs us to pray for forgiveness for others:
And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made of him. If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal.(1John 5:15-16)

So does James:
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. (James 5:14-16)

Of course we should ask God directly for forgiveness but there is no reason why we should not also ask others to interceded for us.

It is an affront to God to seek forgiveness from Him from another than Christ

Apart from Amo offering no evidence for this claim, that is not happening.
The request is : "Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child"

The old covenant days of needing another to be a go between for the forgiveness of our sins, are over.  Christ is the go between, and High Preist of the new covenant.  We can receive forgiveness through no other.

The Old Covenant never needed a go between to be forgiven their sins. 
People could always approach God directly.
Jesus himself contradicts Amo's assertion.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; (Lk 18:10-14).

[4WD]

Of course we should ask God directly for forgiveness but there is no reason why we should not also ask others to interceded for us.

What others?  Intercede how?  There is only one intercessor and that is Christ.

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time (1 Tim 2:5-6).

[AVZ]

AVZ,

It seems you just want to attack Catholics.
You raised the Glories of Mary. In post #15 I suggested you picked just one of the issues you had and explain your objections. We could then discuss it.
No reply from you to that. Now you just launch into another attack.

You, Amo and chosenone have a pattern of just slagging off Catholics. No evidence is provided just assertions.

To you, Amo and chosenone I make two points:

1. The rules of this forum state: 1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual's belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say "The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."

2. There is a maxim: That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

You want objective evidence?
Same book: and may I remind you it bears the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat of the Catholic Church.


"Do not tell me that you (Mary) are unable to help me, because I know you are all-powerful and can obtain from God whatever you ask Him. And if you say you cannot help me, then tell me to whom I can go for help."
Comment: In other words, Mary must help and Mary can't then the person who prays it at a loss who else to pray to.

"You know that your son, Jesus Christ, was not content himself with being our perpetual advocate with the Eternal Father. He also wanted you to act as our advocate to obtain divine mercy for us."
Comment: Jesus apparently didn't want to do the job of being our advocate by Himself. Mary is our advocate together with Him.

Saint Ephrem says to Mary: "You are the only advocate of sinners and the helpless."
Comment: Apparently the above is also not correct. Mary is in fact the ONLY advocate of sinners.

"Before Mary," says the saint, "there was nobody who dared stay God's hand. But now, whenever God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she restrains her son's hand and withholds him from punishing."
Comment: See, Jesus is a bully. He punishes people. Fortunately we have Mary to whistle Him back.

Nevertheless, were it possible for Lucifer to humiliate himself enough to ask Mary for her protection, she would have the power and mercy to obtain his pardon and salvation from God.
Comment: Mary is so powerful, she could even get Satan himself off the hook.

"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord.  She establishes the law by which God acts."
Comment: None needed I guess.

"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord obliging him to be merciful to everyone for whom she intercedes."
Comment: not required


Got a few new ones for you:


"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."
Comment: Not really needed I suppose. If you don't pray to Mary...you are damned.

"Nothing resists your (Mary's) power. For God the Father looks upon your glory as if it were His own. And God the Son, taking delight in glorifying you, grants your every petition as if He were paying a debt."
Comment: Mary's position in heaven is equal to that of the Father and the Son. Both are unable to resist her power.

"St. Bernard asks why the Church calls Mary the Queen of Mercy. And his answer is: "Because we believe that she throws open the abyss of God's mercies to anyone she pleases, when she pleases, and as she pleases. Hence, there are no sinners who will be lost --- no matter how great their crimes --- when this most holy Lady intercedes for them."
Comment: As is clear from this quote, Mary is in charge and she holds the cards.

True, Jesus chose to be alone in dying for the redemption of human beings, as Isaiah foretold: "The wine press I have trodden alone" (Is. 63:3). But when He saw Mary's burning desire to help in human redemption, He (Jesus) so arranged matters that she (Mary) should cooperate in our redemption by the offering and sacrifice of her Son's life, and in this way become the Mother of our souls.
Comment: From this quote is becomes very clear that the Catholic church holds that Mary is our co-redemptrix, and our salvation was a work provided by BOTH Jesus and Mary.


Let me be clear, I do not have this from a secular book or some non-Catholic comment. I have this from a book printed by the Catholic Press, approved by the Vatican.
It bears the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat. This is a writing that is printed and distributed by your own church!!!

So please tell me, how can something that is produced by your own church be an attack on your own church?
You say that I "have a pattern of just slagging off Catholics. No evidence is provided just assertions."
But how can that be? I post excerpts from a book your church distributes, and you call that "slagging off Catholics"?
Is your church printing material that slags off itself???
Nothing I posted above is an assertion, you can find each quote in the book...hence evidence is provided.

[winsome]

What others? 

See post #28

[winsome]

Intercede how? 

By praying

[winsome]

What others?  Intercede how?  There is only one intercessor and that is Christ.

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time (1 Tim 2:5-6).

That says mediator not intercessor.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (Heb 8:6)

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant,...(Heb 9:15)

and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, (Heb 12:24)

[winsome]

You want objective evidence?
Same book: and may I remind you it bears the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat of the Catholic Church.


"Do not tell me that you (Mary) are unable to help me, because I know you are all-powerful and can obtain from God whatever you ask Him. And if you say you cannot help me, then tell me to whom I can go for help."
Comment: In other words, Mary must help and Mary can't then the person who prays it at a loss who else to pray to.

"You know that your son, Jesus Christ, was not content himself with being our perpetual advocate with the Eternal Father. He also wanted you to act as our advocate to obtain divine mercy for us."
Comment: Jesus apparently didn't want to do the job of being our advocate by Himself. Mary is our advocate together with Him.

Saint Ephrem says to Mary: "You are the only advocate of sinners and the helpless."
Comment: Apparently the above is also not correct. Mary is in fact the ONLY advocate of sinners.

"Before Mary," says the saint, "there was nobody who dared stay God's hand. But now, whenever God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she restrains her son's hand and withholds him from punishing."
Comment: See, Jesus is a bully. He punishes people. Fortunately we have Mary to whistle Him back.

Nevertheless, were it possible for Lucifer to humiliate himself enough to ask Mary for her protection, she would have the power and mercy to obtain his pardon and salvation from God.
Comment: Mary is so powerful, she could even get Satan himself off the hook.

"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord.  She establishes the law by which God acts."
Comment: None needed I guess.

"Every prayer of Mary's is like an established law for our Lord obliging him to be merciful to everyone for whom she intercedes."
Comment: not required


Got a few new ones for you:


"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."
Comment: Not really needed I suppose. If you don't pray to Mary...you are damned.

"Nothing resists your (Mary's) power. For God the Father looks upon your glory as if it were His own. And God the Son, taking delight in glorifying you, grants your every petition as if He were paying a debt."
Comment: Mary's position in heaven is equal to that of the Father and the Son. Both are unable to resist her power.

"St. Bernard asks why the Church calls Mary the Queen of Mercy. And his answer is: "Because we believe that she throws open the abyss of God's mercies to anyone she pleases, when she pleases, and as she pleases. Hence, there are no sinners who will be lost --- no matter how great their crimes --- when this most holy Lady intercedes for them."
Comment: As is clear from this quote, Mary is in charge and she holds the cards.

True, Jesus chose to be alone in dying for the redemption of human beings, as Isaiah foretold: "The wine press I have trodden alone" (Is. 63:3). But when He saw Mary's burning desire to help in human redemption, He (Jesus) so arranged matters that she (Mary) should cooperate in our redemption by the offering and sacrifice of her Son's life, and in this way become the Mother of our souls.
Comment: From this quote is becomes very clear that the Catholic church holds that Mary is our co-redemptrix, and our salvation was a work provided by BOTH Jesus and Mary.


Let me be clear, I do not have this from a secular book or some non-Catholic comment. I have this from a book printed by the Catholic Press, approved by the Vatican.
It bears the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat. This is a writing that is printed and distributed by your own church!!!

So please tell me, how can something that is produced by your own church be an attack on your own church?
You say that I "have a pattern of just slagging off Catholics. No evidence is provided just assertions."
But how can that be? I post excerpts from a book your church distributes, and you call that "slagging off Catholics"?
Is your church printing material that slags off itself???
Nothing I posted above is an assertion, you can find each quote in the book...hence evidence is provided.

I SAID

Then pick one and tell me why you find it objectionable.

What don't you understand about the word ONE?

What don't you understand about "tell me why you find it objectionable."?

(And please tell me, at least, which chapter from the 'Glories of Mary' you are quoting from)