Do Catholics Worship Mary?

[winsome]

Got a few new ones for you:

Of course you have, because you are not interested in any replies - just Catholic bashing.

As I said to Amo, you have "no intention of  trying to understand such things from a Catholic viewpoint. Were I to explain all these points it would make no difference to you. From past experience you would just ignore my responses and lay down another barrage of objections. You probably have them all lined up already."

[Amo]

Same old same old. All us ignorant people who won't agree with or submit to Roman Catholicism's "superior" teachings are ignorant, bigoted, Catholic bashing, Catholic haters. Supplying one proof after another of our contentions from their own writings and prayers falls upon deaf ears, because we only do so because we are already Catholic hating bigots and bashers. They say, tell us your objections, then when you tell them they ignore them, and ask us what we don't understand about their request to tell them our objections. Please do tell winsome, what would be an acceptable way for us to tell you our objections, which you have requested. Perhaps we didn't understand your specifications regarding doing so, which is understandable since you did not tell us what they are.

[winsome]

Same old same old. All us ignorant people who won't agree with or submit to Roman Catholicism's "superior" teachings are ignorant, bigoted, Catholic bashing, Catholic haters. Supplying one proof after another of our contentions from their own writings and prayers falls upon deaf ears, because we only do so because we are already Catholic hating bigots and bashers. They say, tell us your objections, then when you tell them they ignore them, and ask us what we don't understand about their request to tell them our objections. Please do tell winsome, what would be an acceptable way for us to tell you our objections, which you have requested. Perhaps we didn't understand your specifications regarding doing so, which is understandable since you did not tell us what they are.

Amo, you haven't provided any proofs - just assertions (= opinions)

I took the trouble to debunk one of them and you don't like it. Tough!

[Texas Conservative]

Mary gets too much attention.  Just like Ellen G. White.

[winsome]

Please do tell winsome, what would be an acceptable way for us to tell you our objections, which you have requested.

An acceptable way would be to conform to the GraceCentered rules

1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual's belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say "The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."

Or do you think that's just a Catholic being unreasonable?

I would add that proper references to sources of the supposed evidence should also be supplied.

[winsome]

Mary gets too much attention.  Just like Ellen G. White.

Really?

Did Ellen G White give birth to our Saviour?

[Texas Conservative]

Really?

Did Ellen G White give birth to our Saviour?

You know the answer to that.  Mary gets too much even though she carried Jesus.  She was a sinner, had additional children.  She deserves respect, but not adoration.  Just like apostles deserve respect but not adoration.

Ellen G. White, I have no respect for.

[winsome]

You know the answer to that.  Mary gets too much even though she carried Jesus.  She was a sinner, had additional children. 

Ah! Diversions from the topic. Count me out on that.

She deserves respect, but not adoration.  Just like apostles deserve respect but not adoration.

Ellen G. White, I have no respect for.

The Catholic Church does NOT teach adoration of Mary.

As I wrote in the OP
Latria and Dulia
The official language of the Catholic Church is Latin, not English. From the earliest times it has maintained a distinction between the honour and reverence due to God alone and the lesser honour that can be given to creatures. The former is know as latria and is usually translated into English as Adoration. The latter is dulia and is normally translated into English as Veneration. Mary is given a special level of dulia known as hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia").

[4WD]

That says mediator not intercessor.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (Heb 8:6)

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant,...(Heb 9:15)

and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, (Heb 12:24)

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator [Gr - μεσίτης] also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


G3316
μεσίτης
mesitēs
mes-ee'-tace
From G3319; a go between, that is, (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor): - mediator.

[winsome]

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator [Gr - μεσίτης] also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


G3316
μεσίτης
mesitēs
mes-ee'-tace
From G3319; a go between, that is, (simply) an internunciator, or (by implication) a reconciler (intercessor): - mediator.

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant

But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. (Heb 8:6)

Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant,...(Heb 9:15)

and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, (Heb 12:24) 


Added:
If we are going to play Strong and word games:

26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26)

Some translations say Advocate instead of Counselor. But either was it's Strong G3875


G3875
par-ak'-lay-tos
An intercessor, consoler:—advocate, comforter.

So Jesus is not the sole Intercessor

[4WD]

Added:
If we are going to play Strong and word games:

26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26)

That was spoken strictly to the 12, not to anyone else.  But even so, I am not sure what point you are trying to make.  The Holy Spirit is indeed what Jesus proclaims there.  And there certainly is nothing there about Mary or even the Apostles being intercessors, counselors, mediators or what have you.

[winsome]

That was spoken strictly to the 12, not to anyone else.  But even so, I am not sure what point you are trying to make.  The Holy Spirit is indeed what Jesus proclaims there.  And there certainly is nothing there about Mary or even the Apostles being intercessors, counselors, mediators or what have you.

It doesn't matter who it was spoken to. Jesus was declaring the Holy Spirit is an intercessor. So we have two intercessors - Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

You claim that Jesus is the only intercessor based on 1Tim 2:5-6, claiming that one meaning of mediator is intercessor.

I pointed out that Jesus, as a mediator, is mediator of the new covenant not mediator meaning intercessor. Though he is an intercessor.

When we pray to God on someone's behalf we are all intercessors. Or you could say that, as part of Christ's body, we share in his intercession. Whichever way you play around with it praying to God for someone else is interceding for them.

[Amo]

Mary gets too much attention.  Just like Ellen G. White.

If or when people come to the SDA board and bring accusations against SDA's and EGW, I don't just accuse them all of being bigoted, bashing, EGW or SDA haters. I examine their accusations or the quotes they supply and present a rebuttal. Understanding that personal accusations of ignorance or bigotry are not arguments and prove nothing.

[Amo]

An acceptable way would be to conform to the GraceCentered rules

1.3 You will only post negative statements about another individual's belief or religious organization (including non-Christian religions) with objective evidence provided. Members are allowed to say "The doctrines X church is false because of Y scriptures and Z other relevant evidence."

Or do you think that's just a Catholic being unreasonable?

I would add that proper references to sources of the supposed evidence should also be supplied.

How are people supposed to state their objections at your request, when their objections will be deemed a negative attack upon you, which you will declare is against the rules? I found all the prayers I quoted on Marian or Catholic web sites. If quoting Catholic prayers is not considered evidence to you, then what is? I could find and quote many more if you like and provide the links. Would this be acceptable to you?

[winsome]

How are people supposed to state their objections at your request, when their objections will be deemed a negative attack upon you, which you will declare is against the rules? I found all the prayers I quoted on Marian or Catholic web sites. If quoting Catholic prayers is not considered evidence to you, then what is? I could find and quote many more if you like and provide the links. Would this be acceptable to you?

If you find that keeping to the rules of this site too irksome I suggest you complain to the owner.

[4WD]

When we pray to God on someone's behalf we are all intercessors. Or you could say that, as part of Christ's body, we share in his intercession. Whichever way you play around with it praying to God for someone else is interceding for them.

Winsome, the issue here is not about praying to God for someone else.  We are told in the NT to do that.  The issue here is praying to someone other than God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for anything. We should never ever do that. I am not suggesting here that you or anyone else does that, but that is the issue here.  It is one thing to express recognition and honor for Mary the mother of Jesus.  It is something altogether different, and absolutely wrong, to worship her and pray to her.  I am not saying here that you do, but it certainly would appear that the Catholic Church does indeed do that.  If not, it seems to come very close to that.

[winsome]

There seems to be a view among many Protestants that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus. This is not true.

Earlier in this thread Amo raised issues with a prayer containing these lines:
Many times have I fallen Mother dear;
Many graces neglected since last I knelt here;
Wilt thou not in pity, my own Mother Mild,
Ask Jesus to pardon the sins of thy child?

See reply #16 for Amo's comments and reply #28 for my response - particularly with regards to the line I have emboldened..

I have just returned from Mass this morning and I would like to add a few more comments. The implications seem to be that Catholics turn to Mary rather than Jesus to have their sins forgiven. This is untrue.
Firstly this is not a liturgical prayer.
Secondly, although it appears on many web sites, I have never heard of it before. I suggest that is very far from the norm for Catholics to pray this, although I find nothing objectionable in it.

What is the norm for Catholics is what we pray in liturgical settings. These are prayers provided by the Church, the main liturgy being the Mass. Catholics are obliged to attend Mass on Sundays, so what we pray at Mass is a good representation of Catholic prayer in this matter. The following is from a typical Sunday Mass

Near the beginning of the Mass we have the "penitential rite"

Priest:
Brethren (brothers and sisters), let us acknowledge our sins,
and so prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries.

Congregation:
I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

Priest:
May almighty God have mercy on us,
forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life.
Congregation: Amen.

Priest:  Lord, have mercy.
Congregation: Lord, have mercy.
Priest:  Christ, have mercy.
Congregation: Christ, have mercy.
Priest:  Lord, have mercy.
Congregation: Lord, have mercy.


Later we say the Lord's prayer which includes the line: forgive us our trespasses.

The focus is on God and asking God to have mercy on us and forgive us our sins (cf Lk. 18:13)
We (additionally) ask others to pray for us as well.

[4WD]

There seems to be a view among many Protestants that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus. This is not true.

While I would charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus, I would certainly charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary beyond that which is scripturally appropriate.

[winsome]

While I would charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus, I would certainly charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary beyond that which is scripturally appropriate.

I would charge that many Protestants have a un-scriptural view of Mary to the extent of virtually dismissing her relevance apart from God using her as a surrogate mother to produce Jesus.But I think that's too big a topic for this thread.

[winsome]

Winsome, the issue here is not about praying to God for someone else.  We are told in the NT to do that.  The issue here is praying to someone other than God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for anything. We should never ever do that.

The issue is really about the meaning of the word 'pray'. We can pray to Mary in one meaning of the word and pray only to God in another meaning of the word.

There are two different Greek words involved here. The Orthodox (and scripture) use one for 'praying' to God and the other for 'praying' to people.

I am not suggesting here that you or anyone else does that, but that is the issue here.  It is one thing to express recognition and honor for Mary the mother of Jesus.  It is something altogether different, and absolutely wrong, to worship her and pray to her.  I am not saying here that you do, but it certainly would appear that the Catholic Church does indeed do that.  If not, it seems to come very close to that.

It is neither wrong to pray to, nor to worship, Mary as long as we are very clear regarding the meaning of those words in relation to God and Mary. And the Catholic Church is clear on the different usages of those words - as I explained in the OP regarding worship.

[4WD]

While I would charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary at the expense of Jesus, I would certainly charge that Catholics are obsessed with Mary beyond that which is scripturally appropriate.

I would charge that many Protestants have a un-scriptural view of Mary to the extent of virtually dismissing her relevance apart from God using her as a surrogate mother to produce Jesus.But I think that's too big a topic for this thread.

Winsome,
First I meant to say, "While I wouldn't charge that..."  But perhaps you sensed that anyway.  You may be correct about that being too big a topic for this thread, but again maybe not.  It certainly has been discussed here in the past.  Interestingly, I think the relevance attributed to Mary by the Catholic Church comes because of the false doctrine of original sin that is held by the Catholic Church and others.  If you have followed any of my postings here you will know that I absolutely abhor the false doctrine of original sin and the even worse false doctrine of Total depravity.  Because of that false belief, the Catholic Church has presented the need for the, again false, doctrine of the immaculate conception.  Having done that it is almost necessary to extend the adulation of Mary beyond what is scripturally presented.  It is just one more instance of the really tragic blunders that result from the false doctrine of original sin.  And I do believe that it is that adulation being extended beyond that scripturally presented that leads to much of the confusion concerning Mary and Catholics and gives rise to the question in the OP.

[winsome]

I would charge that many Protestants have a un-scriptural view of Mary to the extent of virtually dismissing her relevance apart from God using her as a surrogate mother to produce Jesus.But I think that's too big a topic for this thread.Winsome,
First I meant to say, "While I wouldn't charge that..."  But perhaps you sensed that anyway.  You may be correct about that being too big a topic for this thread, but again maybe not.  It certainly has been discussed here in the past.  Interestingly, I think the relevance attributed to Mary by the Catholic Church comes because of the false doctrine of original sin that is held by the Catholic Church and others.  If you have followed any of my postings here you will know that I absolutely abhor the false doctrine of original sin and the even worse false doctrine of Total depravity.  Because of that false belief, the Catholic Church has presented the need for the, again false, doctrine of the immaculate conception.  Having done that it is almost necessary to extend the adulation of Mary beyond what is scripturally presented.  It is just one more instance of the really tragic blunders that result from the false doctrine of original sin.  And I do believe that it is that adulation being extended beyond that scripturally presented that leads to much of the confusion concerning Mary and Catholics and gives rise to the question in the OP.

As you might expect I disagree with you concerning original sin (and it's consequences). But that's another big topic.

[4WD]

As you might expect I disagree with you concerning original sin (and it's consequences). But that's another big topic.

Yes.

[AVZ]

This thread is not about praying to Mary. It is about the question if Catholics worship Mary.
I have posted fragments from a book that is endorsed and approved by the Catholic church that clearly points in the following direction:

- Mary has absorbed all the grace and mercy from God the Father and Jesus.
- Mary is the distributor of all graces to humankind
- Mary demands prayer. Those who do not pray to her are doomed.
- Mary is instrumental in salvation
- The Father and Jesus are variably approachable, only Mary listens to our prayers for certain
- Mary's wishes are law to the Father and Jesus
- Mary's holds the power to swing the emotions of the Father and Jesus
- Salvation of humankind has been a joint venture achievement of both Jesus and Mary

Don't get this wrong. The quotes from this book are approved by the Catholic church, and it bears the stamp of Nihil Obstat...which means that the Catholic church has no objection towards the contents of the book.
What I am posting here is what the Catholic church promotes and teaches.

Only the quote: "I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity." says it all.
If you do not pray to Mary...you go to hell. That's the message of the Catholic church!

Now we can get wound up in discussions whether praying to Mary is scriptural or not, but that is totally irrelevant.
The teaching of the Catholic church is, if you do not pray to Mary you cannot be saved and you will go to hell.

So salvation depends on Mary, you cannot bypass her.
Mary is your advocate, your intercessor and in the end she decides who get saved and who does not.

If you do not believe me, buy the book, notice the stamp of approval fro the Vatican and read it for yourself.

[winsome]

This thread is not about praying to Mary. It is about the question if Catholics worship Mary.
I have posted fragments from a book that is endorsed and approved by the Catholic church that clearly points in the following direction:

- Mary has absorbed all the grace and mercy from God the Father and Jesus.
- Mary is the distributor of all graces to humankind
- Mary demands prayer. Those who do not pray to her are doomed.
- Mary is instrumental in salvation
- The Father and Jesus are variably approachable, only Mary listens to our prayers for certain
- Mary's wishes are law to the Father and Jesus
- Mary's holds the power to swing the emotions of the Father and Jesus
- Salvation of humankind has been a joint venture achievement of both Jesus and Mary

Don't get this wrong. The quotes from this book are approved by the Catholic church, and it bears the stamp of Nihil Obstat...which means that the Catholic church has no objection towards the contents of the book.
What I am posting here is what the Catholic church promotes and teaches.

Only the quote: "I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity." says it all.
If you do not pray to Mary...you go to hell. That's the message of the Catholic church!

Now we can get wound up in discussions whether praying to Mary is scriptural or not, but that is totally irrelevant.
The teaching of the Catholic church is, if you do not pray to Mary you cannot be saved and you will go to hell.

So salvation depends on Mary, you cannot bypass her.
Mary is your advocate, your intercessor and in the end she decides who get saved and who does not.

If you do not believe me, buy the book, notice the stamp of approval fro the Vatican and read it for yourself.

AVZ,
You seem to like posting this stuff but unwilling to discuss it.

I asked you, and have repeated the request to pick ONE quote from the Glories of Mary that you complained out in reply#5, give me the page number and  and explain what you find objectional about it.

You have clearly demonstrated you are not interested in discussion just in Catholic bashing.

[AVZ]

AVZ,
You seem to like posting this stuff but unwilling to discuss it.

I asked you, and have repeated the request to pick ONE quote from the Glories of Mary that you complained out in reply#5, give me the page number and  and explain what you find objectional about it.

You have clearly demonstrated you are not interested in discussion just in Catholic bashing.

I don't find just one thing objectionable...I find everything I read in the book objectionable.

And why do you call this Catholic bashing? All I do is quote from a book that is printed by the Catholic press.
Maybe you should call the Vatican and tell them to stop print things that are inconvenient to you.

[winsome]

I don't find just one thing objectionable...I find everything I read in the book objectionable.

And why do you call this Catholic bashing? All I do is quote from a book that is printed by the Catholic press.
Maybe you should call the Vatican and tell them to stop print things that are inconvenient to you.

Why so evasive AVZ?

If you actually have this book as you claim then it should be easy to give me one quotation and say where it is in the book, and give me your objections.

Methinks you have just picked up this stuff from an anti-Catholic web site and are just indulging Catholic bashing with no intention of a discussion on what you claim it says.

You claim it is printed by Catholic press.

You claim it has a nihil obstat.

You claim it has an imprimatur.

You claim it is approved by the Vatican

But you seem to be unwilling to give any details.

[AVZ]

Why so evasive AVZ?

If you actually have this book as you claim then it should be easy to give me one quotation and say where it is in the book, and give me your objections.

Methinks you have just picked up this stuff from an anti-Catholic web site and are just indulging Catholic bashing with no intention of a discussion on what you claim it says.

You claim it is printed by Catholic press.

You claim it has a nihil obstat.

You claim it has an imprimatur.

You claim it is approved by the Vatican

But you seem to be unwilling to give any details.

Here you go:

http://www.liguori.org/the-glories-of-mary.html

Check here as well
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary9c.htm

and here:
http://www.marys-touch.com/Glories/contents.htm

and here you can download the book:
http://www.themostholyrosary.com/catholic-books-virgin-mary.htm

and here:
https://archive.org/stream/thegloriesofmary00liguuoft/thegloriesofmary00liguuoft_djvu.txt

or you can get it here
https://www.amazon.com/Glories-Alfonso-Maria-Saint-Liguori/dp/0899423604

clear huh? What a simple google search can do...

[winsome]

AVZ,
I didn't ask you for a copy of the "Glories of Mary". I told you already that I had located one on Google Books.

As you have continually failed to select a quote that you object to I will take this one that you quoted.

"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."

As I expected it is not all that it seems.

Firstly the text I am using comes from the version on Google Books:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5apnX6B1TwsC&pg=PA11&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

On one of the title pages it says:
This new and improved translation of "The Glories of Mary," having been duly examined, is hereby approved of.
JOHN Archbishop of New York
New York, Jan 21st 1852

On the Preface page it says:
The edition of the Glories of Mary now presented to the Catholic public of America is the first complete translation of the work ever made into the English language We trust that it will be found to retain the spirit of the learned and saintly author and that it will be welcomed by the faithful in this country with the same delight which it has university called forth in Catholic Europe.

So we can be reasonably sure this is an approved version and is faithful to the original.


It is in Chapter 1, Section 2 commentary on the prayer Salve Regina (Hail Holy Queen)

Firstly the quote is not a comment by Ligouri himself, but he is quoting St. Bridget.

Secondly the quote actually says:
"Therefore he shall be miserable and forever miserable in another life, who in this being able, does not have recourse to me, who am so compassionate to all, and so earnestly desire to aid sinners."

So the true quote does NOT say "In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation". It's not in the text

It does NOT say (as you claimed) "If you do not pray to Mary...you go to hell. That's the message of the Catholic church!"

You can look it up yourself. I gave you the link - page 34/35

[Amo]

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/12/08/pope_francis_prayer_to_mary_on_the_immaculate_conception/1353716

Pope Francis' prayer to Mary on the Immaculate Conception

Here is the full translated text of the prayer:

Immaculate Mother,

For the fifth time I come to your feet as Bishop of Rome,
to pay you homage on behalf of all the inhabitants of this city.

We want to thank you for the constant care
with which you accompany us on our journey,
the journey of families, parishes, religious communities;
the journey of those who daily, and sometimes with difficulty,
pass through Rome on their way to work;
the journey of the sick, the elderly, the poor,
the journey of so many people who immigrated here from places where there is war and hunger.

Thank you, because as soon as we turn our thoughts,
or a fleeting glance, towards you,
or recite a quick Hail Mary,
we feel your maternal presence, tender and strong.

O Mother, help this city develop the "antibodies" it needs
to combat some of the viruses of our times:
the indifference that says: "It's not my business";
the unsociable behavior that despises the common good;
the fear of the foreigner and those who are different from us;
the conformism that disguises itself as transgression;
the hypocrisy that accuses others while doing the same things;
the resignation to environmental and ethical degradation;
the exploitation of so many men and women.

Help us to reject these and other viruses
with the antibodies that come from the Gospel.
Let us make it a good habit
to read a passage from the Gospel every day
and, following your example, to keep the Word of God in our hearts,
so that, like a good seed, it may fruit in our lives.

Immaculate Virgin,

175 years ago, not far from here,
in the church of Sant'Andrea delle Fratte,
you touched the heart of Alphonse Ratisbonne, who at that moment,
from being an atheist and enemy of the Church, became a Christian.

You revealed yourself to him as a Mother of grace and mercy.
Grant that we too, especially in times of trial and temptation,
may fix our gaze on your open hands,
hands that allow the Lord's graces to fall upon the earth.
Help us to rid ourselves of all pride and arrogance,
and to recognize ourselves for what we really are:
small and poor sinners, but always your children.

So, let us place our hand in yours
And allow ourselves to be led back to Jesus, our Brother and Savior,
and to our Heavenly Father, who never tires of waiting for us
and forgiving us when we return to Him.

Thank you, Mother, for always listening to us!
Bless the Church that is in Rome.
Bless this City and the whole world.

Amen.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/prayer?s=t

Prayer

noun

1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.

2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.

3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

4. a formula or sequence of words used in or appointed for praying :
the Lord's Prayer.

5. prayers, a religious observance, either public or private, consisting wholly or mainly of prayer.

6. that which is prayed for.

7. a petition; entreaty.

[Amo]

Strange how we all think we are doing one thing, but Winsome insists that we are doing another. Seems to be some kind of breakdown in communication.

[winsome]

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2017/12/08/pope_francis_prayer_to_mary_on_the_immaculate_conception/1353716

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/prayer?s=t

And your point is .... what?

[winsome]

Strange how we all think we are doing one thing, but Winsome insists that we are doing another. Seems to be some kind of breakdown in communication.

What? 

[Amo]

http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/english3/p02775.htm

HOLY MARY, MOTHER OF GOD
(By Pope Benedict XVI:
Deus Caritas Est [42])


Mary, Virgin and Mother,
shows us what love is and whence it draws its origin
and its constantly renewed power.
To her we entrust the Church and her mission in the service of love:

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
you have given the world its true light,
Jesus, your Son - the Son of God.
You abandoned yourself completely
to God's call and this became a wellspring
of the goodness which flows forth from him.
Show us Jesus. Lead us to him.
Teach us to know and love him,
so that we too can become capable of true love
and be fountains of living water
in the midst of a thirsting world.

[winsome]

http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/english3/p02775.htm

And your point is .... what?