Do Catholics Worship Mary?

[winsome]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/prayer?s=t

From the above link that Amo gave for a definition of prayer - but a bit he missed out.

2. a similar personal communication that does not involve adoration, addressed to beings venerated as being closely associated with a deity, such as angels or saints

[Amo]

And your point is .... what?

http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/marian.htm

The point is, the link provided is filled with a great many Marian prayers. In which it can be seen that Catholics pray to Mary, they don't just ask her to pray for them. Prayer is an act of worship. This is where we apparently do not agree. Do you think prayer is an act of worship?

[winsome]

http://www.catholicdoors.com/prayers/marian.htm

The point is, the link provided is filled with a great many Marian prayers. In which it can be seen that Catholics pray to Mary, they don't just ask her to pray for them. Prayer is an act of worship. This is where we apparently do not agree. Do you think prayer is an act of worship?

One meaning of pray is ask. So when we pray to Mary we are asking Mary.

Confusion arises because in the Greek there are two different words that we translate "pray". Actually there are many but there are two in particular.

The Greek speaking Orthodox use one for addressing God and the other for addressing Mary and the Saints. But we use the same word "pray" for both.

I can go into this in more detail if you wish giving scriptural examples.

[Amo]

One meaning of pray is ask. So when we pray to Mary we are asking Mary.

Confusion arises because in the Greek there are two different words that we translate "pray". Actually there are many but there are two in particular.

The Greek speaking Orthodox use one for addressing God and the other for addressing Mary and the Saints. But we use the same word "pray" for both.

I can go into this in more detail if you wish giving scriptural examples.

What is the difference between Catholics praying to Mary and other saints, and pagans praying to their dead ancestors?

[AVZ]

AVZ,
I didn't ask you for a copy of the "Glories of Mary". I told you already that I had located one on Google Books.

As you have continually failed to select a quote that you object to I will take this one that you quoted.

"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."

As I expected it is not all that it seems.

Firstly the text I am using comes from the version on Google Books:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5apnX6B1TwsC&pg=PA11&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

On one of the title pages it says:
This new and improved translation of "The Glories of Mary," having been duly examined, is hereby approved of.
JOHN Archbishop of New York
New York, Jan 21st 1852

On the Preface page it says:
The edition of the Glories of Mary now presented to the Catholic public of America is the first complete translation of the work ever made into the English language We trust that it will be found to retain the spirit of the learned and saintly author and that it will be welcomed by the faithful in this country with the same delight which it has university called forth in Catholic Europe.

So we can be reasonably sure this is an approved version and is faithful to the original.


It is in Chapter 1, Section 2 commentary on the prayer Salve Regina (Hail Holy Queen)

Firstly the quote is not a comment by Ligouri himself, but he is quoting St. Bridget.

Secondly the quote actually says:
"Therefore he shall be miserable and forever miserable in another life, who in this being able, does not have recourse to me, who am so compassionate to all, and so earnestly desire to aid sinners."

So the true quote does NOT say "In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation". It's not in the text

It does NOT say (as you claimed) "If you do not pray to Mary...you go to hell. That's the message of the Catholic church!"

You can look it up yourself. I gave you the link - page 34/35

Continue reading. You will get there.

[AVZ]

AVZ,
I didn't ask you for a copy of the "Glories of Mary". I told you already that I had located one on Google Books.

So you called me out on those claims that I allegedly made; such as I "claimed" the book has an imprimatur and the book has Nihil Obstat...whilst you had the book all that time.
You also alleged I found the quotes on some Catholic bashing website, whilst you actually knew I did not.

The tactics you are using to defend this for you obviously embarrassing book are telling.
I wonder what your next attempt to throw up a straw man is going to be.

The book is not going away. The Catholic church has obviously made Mary into our savior on equal footing with the Father and the Son.

[winsome]

What is the difference between Catholics praying to Mary and other saints, and pagans praying to their dead ancestors?

What has that to do with the meaning of prayer?

Answer: Absolutely nothing. It's just a typical attempt at a diversion.

[winsome]

Continue reading. You will get there.

It's not there

I gave you the full quote.

Or did you do what Amo did and give a fabricated quote that was two separate quotes stitched together?

[winsome]

So you called me out on those claims that I allegedly made; such as I "claimed" the book has an imprimatur and the book has Nihil Obstat...whilst you had the book all that time.
You also alleged I found the quotes on some Catholic bashing website, whilst you actually knew I did not.

The tactics you are using to defend this for you obviously embarrassing book are telling.
I wonder what your next attempt to throw up a straw man is going to be.

I had no idea what you actually had since you did not divulge your source.

You still haven't, since the quote you gave is not there you must have some other source.

I'm not the dishonest one around here.

The book is not going away. The Catholic church has obviously made Mary into our savior on equal footing with the Father and the Son.

Rubbish.

[Amo]

So be it. Dedicate your lives, your churches, your nations, and this world to Mary, and do what she tells you.

[AVZ]

It's not there

I gave you the full quote.

Or did you do what Amo did and give a fabricated quote that was two separate quotes stitched together?

Your my hero...you read 900 pages in a weekend?
Just curious, how long does it take you to read War and Peace? One evening?

[Open Heart]

What is the difference between Catholics praying to Mary and other saints, and pagans praying to their dead ancestors?

The dead ancestors are supposed to bless or curse your life of their own power.  Saints have no power of their own except to pray for us through Christ to the Father.

[Open Heart]

The book is not going away. The Catholic church has obviously made Mary into our savior on equal footing with the Father and the Son.

I'm a teacher of catechism for confirmation students.  If you think that we put Mary equal to Christ, you are sadly mistaken.  Mary cooperates with God in his plan for salvation.  By her YES to God, she allowed the incarnation to take place, which is the single most significant act by a human being other than Christ himself.  Her YES allowed God's plan for salvation to take place.  For that role in salvation we venerate (but don't worship) her as the first and best Christian.

[AVZ]

I'm a teacher of catechism for confirmation students.  If you think that we put Mary equal to Christ, you are sadly mistaken.  Mary cooperates with God in his plan for salvation.  By her YES to God, she allowed the incarnation to take place, which is the single most significant act by a human being other than Christ himself.  Her YES allowed God's plan for salvation to take place.  For that role in salvation we venerate (but don't worship) her as the first and best Christian.

How is this any different from for example the Apostles saying yes to spread the gospel, or Moses saying yes to go to Pharaoh.
None of these people were ever in a position to "allow God to let His plan take place".

We admire these people for doing what they did. It shows great faith.
But Mary's yes is in no way more significant than Abraham's yes, or Moses yes, or the Apostles yes, or the yes by the various prophets.

Yet none of these people, who were in their own way instrumental in God's plan of salvation have been put in the same position as Mary by the Catholic church.
The quotes in the book speak for themselves: Mary is in charge, she holds the power of salvation in her hands, she distributes it and her word is law to the Father and the Son.

That's no longer adoration or veneration...that's plain and simple worship.

[winsome]

Your my hero...you read 900 pages in a weekend?
Just curious, how long does it take you to read War and Peace? One evening?

I don't need to read the whole book. You said "All quotes come from the first chapters of the book. "

Moreover I have done a search on 'damnation' (from your claimed quote) and it occurs only 5 times. None of them match your quote.

You seem very coy about the version you claim to have of this book and where this quote can be found.

[winsome]

I have posted fragments from a book that is endorsed and approved by the Catholic church

The quotes from this book are approved by the Catholic church, and it bears the stamp of Nihil Obstat...which means that the Catholic church has no objection towards the contents of the book.

What I am posting here is what the Catholic church promotes and teaches.


If you do not believe me, buy the book, notice the stamp of approval fro the Vatican and read it for yourself.

AVZ,

You claim far too much for a nihil obstat and imprimatur.

In my understanding:
They do not say that the Vatican approves of the writing.
They do not say that the Catholic Church approves of the writing.
They do not say that the Bishop who gives the imprimatur approves of the writing.
They do not say this is what the Catholic Church promotes and teaches.

Take three statements X, Y & Z about some aspect of the Catholic Faith.

Writer A says these statements X, Y & Z are true.
Writer B says these statements X, Y & Z are false.

It is quite possible for the both pieces of writing to get an imprimatur from the same Bishop.

Many modern books contain a disclaimer such as this one:
The permission to publish is a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal or moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the permission to publish agree with the contents, opinions, or statements expressed.

As fisheaters.com comments
Please know that the presence of an Imprimatur does not mean that a book is an official text of the Church. It doesn't make the book the equivalent of an encyclical, say. It's not the approval of the work by the Pope or a dogmatic Council, and it's not a stamp of infallibility. It doesn't even mean that everything in the book is accurate, only that there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic dogma. But, while occasionally a book sneaks through and its Imprimatur later recalled, this procedure is an important way for Catholics to increase their chances of staying error-free with regard to doctrine

[AVZ]

AVZ,

You claim far too much for a nihil obstat and imprimatur.

In my understanding:
They do not say that the Vatican approves of the writing.
They do not say that the Catholic Church approves of the writing.
They do not say that the Bishop who gives the imprimatur approves of the writing.
They do not say this is what the Catholic Church promotes and teaches.

Take three statements X, Y & Z about some aspect of the Catholic Faith.

Writer A says these statements X, Y & Z are true.
Writer B says these statements X, Y & Z are false.

It is quite possible for the both pieces of writing to get an imprimatur from the same Bishop.

Many modern books contain a disclaimer such as this one:
The permission to publish is a declaration that a book or pamphlet is considered to be free from doctrinal or moral error. It is not implied that those who have granted the permission to publish agree with the contents, opinions, or statements expressed.

As fisheaters.com comments
Please know that the presence of an Imprimatur does not mean that a book is an official text of the Church. It doesn't make the book the equivalent of an encyclical, say. It's not the approval of the work by the Pope or a dogmatic Council, and it's not a stamp of infallibility. It doesn't even mean that everything in the book is accurate, only that there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic dogma. But, while occasionally a book sneaks through and its Imprimatur later recalled, this procedure is an important way for Catholics to increase their chances of staying error-free with regard to doctrine

Don't know what you are trying to convey. Its very simple...books with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat are officially approved by a cleric of the Catholic church who has been given the authority to grant those permissions.

It is exactly as you say: Those books DO NOT contradicts Catholic dogma and they ARE considered free from doctrinal or moral error.

So the Glories of Mary, is in line with Catholic dogma and it is free from doctrinal and moral error.
Hence it is official teaching of the Catholic church.


Winsome, you can try to discredit the book until you see blue in the face, but fact is it has received the stamps of approval over and over again from many authorities in the Catholic church.
I know the book is a huge embarrassment for you and that's why you are not even trying to address the content of the book.

Fact is that the Catholic friends I asked to read the book are blown off their socks. They had not clue that this is approved by their church.
Some of them asked their priest and the amazing part is that no-one gets a straightforward answer. This book is a huge embarrassment for the Catholics.
The good thing is that those who I asked to read the book have seriously started to doubt the Catholic church on the correctness of Mariology.

Many Protestants equally do not know of this book. Those who I asked to read it are equally blown off their socks.
Many Protestants swallow the language of the Catholic church that downplays the whole adoration of Mary. They think its just a matter of interpretation of a few words like adoration and veneration.
This book however gives insight in what the Catholic church really thinks, what their heroes of faith really promote and what the unveiled language of the Catholic church is with regards to the position of Mary.

I had the luck to be able to sit down with a nun here in my hometown to talk about the position of Mary in the church.
I gave her the book and asked her to comment. She was totally taken aback and she actually apologized. She had no idea this book existed!
When we left she promised she was going to find out more and look into the matter. I do not know if she did.

Winsome, I have been through it all.
Catholics trying to discredit the term Imprimatur. Catholics trying to renegotiate the term Nihil Obstat. Even Catholics trying to get help from their priest to explain.
None of it helps. The book is here, it has the approvals.
The fact that the book remains is because the Catholic church agrees on all of it! What is in the book is truth as far as the Catholic church is concerned.
This is how Mary is seen, how she is worshiped and how Catholics are supposed to see her.

So instead of trying to negotiate that which is irrelevant, I would say start reading the book and get your eyes opened to what your church really teaches.

[winsome]

Don't know what you are trying to convey. Its very simple...books with Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat are officially approved by a cleric of the Catholic church who has been given the authority to grant those permissions.

It is exactly as you say: Those books DO NOT contradicts Catholic dogma and they ARE considered free from doctrinal or moral error.

So the Glories of Mary, is in line with Catholic dogma and it is free from doctrinal and moral error.
Hence it is official teaching of the Catholic church.

As usual with you AVZ, what the Catholic Church means by something the Catholic Church says has to mean what you want it to mean not what the Church intends it to mean.

[AVZ]

As usual with you AVZ, what the Catholic Church means by something the Catholic Church says has to mean what you want it to mean not what the Church intends it to mean.

Winsome...read the book.
This is not some high theological print, it is written in plain language and the meaning is very clear to all who takes the time to get himself informed.
It's all there if you are interested.

[winsome]

Winsome...read the book.
This is not some high theological print, it is written in plain language and the meaning is very clear to all who takes the time to get himself informed.
It's all there if you are interested.

AVZ,

I'm still waiting for yo to tell me where this quote comes from in the book:
"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."

What version of the book do you have?
What is it's publication date?

You claim it has a nihil obstat.
Who gave it and on what date?

You claim it has an imprimatur.
Who gave it and on what date?

I've given you my source. What is your problem in giving me yours??

[winsome]

Winsome, you can try to discredit the book until you see blue in the face, but fact is it has received the stamps of approval over and over again from many authorities in the Catholic church.
I know the book is a huge embarrassment for you and that's why you are not even trying to address the content of the book.

Fact is that the Catholic friends I asked to read the book are blown off their socks. They had not clue that this is approved by their church.
Some of them asked their priest and the amazing part is that no-one gets a straightforward answer. This book is a huge embarrassment for the Catholics.
The good thing is that those who I asked to read the book have seriously started to doubt the Catholic church on the correctness of Mariology.

Many Protestants equally do not know of this book. Those who I asked to read it are equally blown off their socks.
Many Protestants swallow the language of the Catholic church that downplays the whole adoration of Mary. They think its just a matter of interpretation of a few words like adoration and veneration.
This book however gives insight in what the Catholic church really thinks, what their heroes of faith really promote and what the unveiled language of the Catholic church is with regards to the position of Mary.

I had the luck to be able to sit down with a nun here in my hometown to talk about the position of Mary in the church.
I gave her the book and asked her to comment. She was totally taken aback and she actually apologized. She had no idea this book existed!
When we left she promised she was going to find out more and look into the matter. I do not know if she did.

Winsome, I have been through it all.
Catholics trying to discredit the term Imprimatur. Catholics trying to renegotiate the term Nihil Obstat. Even Catholics trying to get help from their priest to explain.
None of it helps. The book is here, it has the approvals.
The fact that the book remains is because the Catholic church agrees on all of it! What is in the book is truth as far as the Catholic church is concerned.
This is how Mary is seen, how she is worshiped and how Catholics are supposed to see her.

So instead of trying to negotiate that which is irrelevant, I would say start reading the book and get your eyes opened to what your church really teaches.

Oh, spare me the faux shock, horror stuff.

[AVZ]

AVZ,

I'm still waiting for yo to tell me where this quote comes from in the book:
"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."

What version of the book do you have?
What is it's publication date?

You claim it has a nihil obstat.
Who gave it and on what date?

You claim it has an imprimatur.
Who gave it and on what date?

I've given you my source. What is your problem in giving me yours??

You know what, I'll give you a Catholic source.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories1.htm

Take note of the header: Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat

Then scroll down to the 4th line above chapter 2.


See I am not unfair. I am giving you a Catholic source, confirming the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat and on top of that confirming the text in The Glories of Mary.
What more do you want?

[winsome]

You know what, I'll give you a Catholic source.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/glories1.htm

Take note of the header: Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat

Then scroll down to the 4th line above chapter 2.


See I am not unfair. I am giving you a Catholic source, confirming the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat and on top of that confirming the text in The Glories of Mary.
What more do you want?

What more I want is what I asked you for:
What version of the book do you have?
What is it's publication date?

You claim it has a nihil obstat.
Who gave it and on what date?

You claim it has an imprimatur.
Who gave it and on what date?

I've given you my source. What is your problem in giving me yours?

The site you pointed to is only supposed excerpts  from the "Glories of Mary"
It doesn't give a reference to the source of these excerpts.
It claims to have nihil obstat and imprimatur but doesn't say who gave them or when.

Why the prevarication?
Do you have the book or not?
Or do you just have some dodgy extracts?

Does you book have, and have you read, the
PETITION OF THE AUTHOR TO JESUS AND MARY
TO THE READER
INTRODUCTION WHICH OUGHT TO BE READ
All of which are missing from the web link you gave and are an important preliminary to understand the contex.

Incidentally, some time ago I purchased a "package" of useful stuff but I hardly used it. I've had a look into it & found it has the same version of the Glories of Mary" as on Google Books. 

[winsome]

AVZ,
I've found a very interesting rebuttal by Dave Armstrong to a Protestant who claimed the "Glories of Mary"  puts Mary "above God" and she can "manipulate God". Dave Armstrong is a Catholic apologist who used to be Protestant himself.

In his introduction he makes these points:
Most Protestants are taught very little about the Blessed Virgin Mary: The Mother of God the Son (Theotokos, or literally, God-bearer), other than the fact that she rocked baby Jesus' cradle on the first Christmas and thus helped to make Silent Night (written by an Austrian Catholic priest) the lovely, moving song that it is. Thus, for them to understand the highest theological and spiritual level of Catholic Mariology is somewhat akin to expecting a child who has just mastered the times tables to comprehend calculus or trigonometry. It just won't happen. Even most Catholics don't understand these things. They require much thought and study. One has to progress in any form of knowledge little by little.

The amount of misinformation, disinformation, and incorrect understandings amongst Protestants on these issues can never, in my experience, be underestimated, or overlooked.

I think you ought to read it.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2016/02/st-alphonsus-de-liguori-mary-worshiper-idolater.html

I mentioned Liguori's introductory sections before the main part of the book begins. They are important because they set a context for Liguori's thoughts within which the rest of the book should be interpreted.

For example in the section To The Reader he writes
"...Almighty God, in order to glorify the mother of the Redeemer, has ordained that her great charity should intercede for all those for whom her divine Son offered and paid the superabundant ransom of his precious blood, in which alone is our salvation, life and resurrection.
and continues
It is on the basis of this doctrine and whatever belongs to it that I have undertaken to establish my propositions

[Open Heart]

How is this any different from for example the Apostles saying yes to spread the gospel, or Moses saying yes to go to Pharaoh.

Moses didn't receive the New Covenant.  He received the Sinai covenant and shared it with Israelites, not the world.

There were many, many disciples who shared the gospel.  But only one mother.

The disciples, and Moses, are considered saints.  They are venerated (not worshiped) and we aske them to pray for us to God through Jesus Christ.  They are considered of great significance -- just not quite as much as Mary.

[winsome]

For information.

Regarding the "quote" from the "Glories of Mary"
"I (Mary) am compassionate toward all and eager to help sinners. Those who have it in their power here on earth to invoke me and yet refuse to do so are foolish. In failing to call upon me (Mary), they incur damnation and will be miserable for all eternity."
This is part of a quote from St. Bridget. The version of the book on Google Books and on  my computer give the full Latin text. I have asked a priest friend of mine who is studying in Rome, to give me a translation.
Here it is:
Ego regina cœli (I am the queen of Heaven); ego mater misericordiæ (I am the Mother of Mercy); ego justorum gaudium et aditus peccatorum ad Deum (I am the joy of the just and the gate of entrance for sinners to God). Nullus est adeo maledictus, qui quamdiu vivit careat misericordia mea (There is no sinner living on earth who is so accursed that he is deprived of my compassion); quia propter ne levius tentatur a dæmonibus, quam alias tentaretur (For everyone, if he receives nothing else through my intercession, receives the grace of being less tempted by evil spirits than he otherwise would be). Nullus est ita abjectus a Deo, nisi fuerit omnino maledictus, qui si me invocaverit, non revertatur ad Deum, et babiturus, sit misericordiam. (No one, therefore who is not entirely accursed is so entirely cast off by God that he may not return and enjoy his mercy if he invokes my aid). Ego vocor ab omnibus mater misericordiæ (I am called by all the Mother of Mercy), et vere misericordia illius misericordem me fecit (And truly the mercy of God towards men has made me so merciful towards them). Ideo miser erit qui ad misericordem, cum possit, non accredit (Therefore he shall be miserable, and forever miserable who in this life though able, does not have recourse to me).