Kings of the earth

[3 Resurrections]

Feel free to post a link to a Facebook page if you wish, RB, but it's not a page of my creation.  I do NOT have a Facebook account.  Have NEVER had one, as God is my witness.

I don't do tweet, never did MySpace, or do any other kind of social media either, except post on 4 different Christian forums. 

[RB]

Feel free to post a link to a Facebook page if you wish, RB, but it's not a page of my creation.  I do NOT have a Facebook account.  Have NEVER had one, as God is my witness.

I don't do tweet, never did MySpace, or do any other kind of social media either, except post on 4 different Christian forums.

I would not post it here but in a PM.

[Amo]

For Amo and your question, yes I am a Preterist, but not one that is typical of your experience probably.  And if you think that Jesus did not die at the location of the city of Jerusalem, then you have problems with various scriptures that say this happened there at Jerusalem in no uncertain terms.  Jesus was crucified on the crest of the Mount of Olives on the east side of Jerusalem.  Try Luke 9:31 for example.  On the Mount of Transfiguration, it says Moses and Elijah "spake of his decease which he should accomplish AT JERUSALEM".

Mat 27:33 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull, 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. 35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Mar 15:22 And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull. 23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not. 24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.

Joh 19:16 Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away. 17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: 18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.

Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. 12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Emphasis in the following quotes is mine.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Golgotha

Golgotha, (Aramaic: "Skull,") also called Calvary, (from Latin calva: "bald head," or "skull"), skull-shaped hill in Jerusalem, the site of Jesus' crucifixion. It is referred to in all four Gospels. The hill of execution was outside the city walls of Jerusalem, apparently near a road and not far from the sepulchre where Jesus was buried. Its exact location is uncertain, but most scholars prefer either the spot now covered by the Church of the Holy Sepulchre or a hillock called Gordon's Calvary just north of the Damascus Gate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary

Traditional site of Golgotha in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre
Calvary, or Golgotha, traditionally interpreted as reflecting Syriac: as it were Hebrew "skull" , was, according to the canonical Gospels, a site immediately outside Jerusalem's walls where Jesus was crucified.

https://www.evangelicalmagazine.com/article/golgotha-why-was-jesus-crucified-outside-the-city/

.................................................

Of course, Jesus didn't go into the Old City to Golgotha. He went out of the city. All the gospel writers emphasise that Jesus was taken outside the city to be crucified. Unlike today, in 30 AD, the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was outside the city walls.

You may be wondering why that is so important. It matters because Jews associate holiness and purity with places. So it was outside the city where the unclean was dealt with (e.g. Leviticus 14:33-45)................

[Amo]

Amo, you specifically asked me to correct you if you were wrong  You are wrong in thinking I am deluded, and living in "la-la land" as you put it.  You are wrong in presuming that I think Satan is bound today.  He's not.  He has already been destroyed utterly to ashes (and his demonic forces along with him).  They have long ago been crushed under the saints' feet, according to Paul's promise in Romans 16:20.  "And the God of peace shall crush Satan under your feet SHORTLY."

You are wrong in totally disregarding Christ's resurrection in AD 33 as being the "FIRST resurrection".  Christ was called the "FIRST-fruits" in I Cor. 15:20 & 23.  Out of that "FIRST-fruits" group of Matthew 27 saints raised along with Him, Christ is uniquely called the "FIRST-begotten" in Heb. 1:6.  And also the "FIRST-born from among the dead" (Col. 1:18) to stand in God's presence in that resurrected human form. 

Just how many "FIRSTS" do you need from scripture to convince you that the "FIRST resurrection" took place in real time with Christ's resurrection in AD 33?  Far from making Revelation a "complete mess" as you call it, it clears up the whole issue of where you and I stand on the timeline of prophetic fulfillment.

You and I are waiting for the final THIRD bodily resurrection event in our future.  In the fall of AD 3033 to be exact, at the time that the Feast of Tabernacles would have been celebrated during Old Covenant days (as Zechariah 14:16-19 reminds us to keep that single FOT event in memory).  Our work as saints presently is to continue the Great Commission - the same as those saints who were awaiting the soon-coming SECOND resurrection that occurred on the day of Pentecost in the year AD 70, according to that concluding 1,335th day prophesied in Daniel 12:11-13.

On that occasion (Rev. 20:14-15), God emptied the wicked of Hades into Jerusalem's Lake of Fire (its "second death" of the temple, its priesthood, and the nation since its Babylonian destruction in 586 BC).  The wicked dead were destroyed along with the devil and his angels, for whom that Lake of Fire in Jerusalem had been prepared. 

Isaiah 24:21-23 also spoke of the evil angelic host of high ones being first imprisoned and then destroyed together along with the "kings of the earth" (high priesthood) of Israel.  When that was done, the Lord of hosts would be manifested as reigning gloriously in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem.  These high priesthood "kings of the earth" in Jerusalem are no more in existence.  Consequently, neither are the evil angelic hosts in existence anymore, since they were prophesied to be imprisoned and destroyed "TOGETHER".

Hades now since AD 70 is the equivalent of a computer trash bin that has been refilling once again with the wicked dead.  It will be emptied a final time for the destruction of the wicked at the THIRD resurrection in our future, to complete the purging process of God's universe.

You are wrong in thinking that the saints have not yet "reigned with Christ".   Any blood-bought saint "reigns in life" with the risen Christ (Rom. 5:17), who was installed on His high priestly throne at His first ascension on His resurrection day, according to Peter in Acts 2:29-36.

Actually, any saint as a child of faith ever since creation has also shared in God's reign over the world, which reign has always been an eternal one.  "Thy throne is established of old; thou art from everlasting", the Psalmist spoke of God's perpetual reign over His creation.

As for the passages you brought up from John 5 & 6 speaking of the "last day" resurrection, this "last day" was the same event anticipated by Peter, who said that "the end of all things is AT HAND" in HIS days (I Peter 4:7).  It was the same resurrection that Paul testified at least TWICE in scripture that was soon "ABOUT TO BE" in HIS days - one for the just and the unjust (II Tim. 4:1, Acts 24:15).

You too, Amo, just like RB, have never openly addressed the simple definition that God Himself gives of when an "AT HAND" prophecy is fulfilled.  Please give an honest, thorough review of Ezekiel 12:21-28 where God tells you exactly when "AT HAND" prophecies come to fulfillment.  They are NOT  "PROLONGED" into "times that are far off", but are "spoken" and also "PERFORMED" in "YOUR DAYS" for the ones hearing them for the first time.  That means all of Revelation's "AT HAND" unsealed prophecies of the future (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10) were fulfilled in THEIR DAYS - not prolonged into our "times that are far off" from John's writing of Revelation.

There is no third resurrection mentioned in scripture. In fact there is not even a second resurrection mentioned in scripture. Though such is obviously implied when the bible speaks of the first resurrection, which means nothing if there is not at least a second resurrection. We know from scripture that there is a resurrection of life, and a resurrection of Damnation (Joh 5:29).

If the first resurrection is just a matter of who was raised first, then Christ's resurrection would not qualify, because there were other resurrections before His own. He Himself raised some of the dead before He was crucified. I can think of two He raised just off of the top of my head, these would then constitute the first and second resurrections according to your own bogus standard above. Although they were preceded by some during the old covenant as well.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How can the first resurrection mentioned above, consisting of all those beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast, be the resurrection of Jesus. No one had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus, save perhaps John the Baptist alone, until after His crucifixion and resurrection. Yet the scriptures above testify that all those who suffered for the witness of Jesus, the word of God, and such as did not worship the beast, will take part in the first resurrection. Your position is flawed and not supported by scripture. It is the invention of those who wish to place the fulfillment of all new covenant biblical prophesy behind the development of the papacy, dark ages, and persecutions of the same, in order to bypass the same unto delusion. Leaving the new covenant era people of God without any prophetic guidance for the last two thousand years of their existence according to the will of the evil one himself, the present existence of whom you and yours deny altogether according to his will. So be it. Nevertheless scripture is true, and your testimony is not.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

According to your false testimony, the above scriptures should have said "shew unto his servants things which have already come to pass". To the contrary, they began to come to pass and have continued to be fulfilled ever since.

You are of course free to continue to believe that the evil one is already gone, and that the new covenant Church was left without any prophetic guidance for the last two thousand years and foreseeable future. Just as I am free to believe that you are totally deceived for doing so.

2Pe 1:19  We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

[3 Resurrections]

Not sure, Amo, why you think it's necessary to split hairs about Jesus's death "AT Jerusalem" being different than His being crucified "outside the gate" of Jerusalem.  It's the same thing.  The "place of the skull" actually IS the head of the Mount of Olives on the eastern side of Jerusalem.  Tradition can be and often is mistaken regarding landmarks.   Tour guides of Jerusalem's sites are not infallible.

The main access road coming from "Ros" or the "head" of the Mount of Olives led from the crest of the Mount of Olives downhill to an eastern gate into the city.  The Romans crucified Jesus at a point where all travelers into the city would likely pass and view His punishment taking place.  Helped to instill fear and submission in the populace.

Do you remember when King David had to flee Jerusalem during Absalom's rebellion?  II Samuel 15:30 says that "David went up by the ascent of Mount Olivet, and wept as he went up...".  "And it came to pass that when David was come to the top of the Mount, where he worshipped God, behold Hushai the Archite came to meet him..." (v. 32).  Then in the next chapter 16:1, it says that "when David was a little past the top of the hill behold Ziba the servant of Mephibosheth  met him..."(it's "past Ros" in the LXX - which means "past the head" or "chief part" in Greek). 

This "head", or top of Mount Olivet is the "place of the skull" where Jesus was crucified.    opposite the temple on the east side of Jerusalem. It's also where Jesus bodily returned and stood in judgment on the city of Jerusalem in AD 70.  He gathered His resurrected saints to meet Him in the air then, and returned with them to present them to the Father in heaven.  A fitting site to choose for returning victoriously to the scene of the crime against Himself, don't you think?  Poetic justice.

[3 Resurrections]

Hey again Amo,

Sure, there are places where a third resurrection is mentioned in scripture.  I've submitted these references before a couple of times, but you must have missed them.  I'll dig back in my notes and give a link if you want.

And Christ as the "First-begotten" one of the "First-fruits" qualified as being the "First-born" of the "FIRST resurrection" because He was absolutely the FIRST ONE TO STAND IN GOD'S PRESENCE WITH A RESURRECTED, GLORIFIED HUMAN BODY IN HEAVEN.  No other person resurrected to eternal life before Christ had done that before He did; not Lazarus, the Shunamite's  son, not Elijah, nor even Enoch - NO ONE had yet ascended to the Father until after Christ had done so on His resurrection day.  Face-to-face with God our Father in a resurrected, glorified human body is our salvation completed.  Nothing short of that. 

And you err in thinking scripture says ALL of those souls mentioned in Rev. 20:4 who had reigned with Christ would rise from the dead in the First Resurrection.  It was only the "REMNANT (loipoi) of the dead" who did so as the "First-fruits" along with Christ.  Matthew 27:52-53 says it was "MANY" who rose with Christ the First-fruits.  Rev. 14:4 says that the "First-fruits" numbered 144,000, and Rev. 7 says they were from Jewish tribes only (from those graves around Jerusalem that broke open in the earthquake when Christ died). 

The number of 144,000 is an impressive amount, but it is not ALL who had been listed in Rev. 20:4; it's only PART of their number - a "REMNANT" of that list of dead ones.  This is the "REMNANT" who "lived again" in the "First resurrection" when the resurrecting Christ brought them with Him out of the grave.

And it is YOU, Amo, who mistakenly wants to hang onto the idea that God did not destroy Satan when He promised to in Romans 16:20.  There are many such proofs in scripture of when the demonic realm was burned up long ago, but you either just gloss over them, or you aren't interested.  The REAL enemy at present is no further away than our own deceptive hearts. 

I have never taken the position that there is no prophetic guidance from scripture for us in these New Covenant ages.  Have you missed where I have spoken on this topic of what we presently can expect until Christ's final return?  I have not been silent on this.

And apparently you have also missed Rev. 1:19 where John was told to write "the things which thou HAST seen" (PAST events John already knew about), and "the things which ARE" (presently happening back then in John's days), "and the things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (the NEAR future for John's first-century readers).  These prophecies of the near future that John wrote down were ALL fulfilled soon after John wrote about them.  Those he was forbidden to write down are applicable to us in times AFTER AD 70 (Rev. 10:4).  Though John doesn't describe the content of these unwritten prophecies, yet we know from other scripture a few things we can expect in our future.  And they are probably not what you have been taught to expect.

[RB]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

How can the first resurrection mentioned above, consisting of all those beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast, be the resurrection of Jesus. No one had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus, save perhaps John the Baptist alone, until after His crucifixion and resurrection. Yet the scriptures above testify that all those who suffered for the witness of Jesus, the word of God, and such as did not worship the beast, will take part in the first resurrection.

Amo, the red highlight is mine for discussion.

I will add more later, your choice of words ( in this case...... WILL ) is expressing a future tense when John never used it in that tense~consider:

Revealtion 20:5,6~"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

What John saw were men though they had died, NEVERTHELESS, they were still living , which John said this IS the first resurrection~in other words they had ETERNAL LIFE at the point they experience the first resurrection, which without question was a spiritual birth from being dead in trespasses and sins to eternal where they would TRULY never died again~that is, spiritual speaking~John adds more when he said those who had a part in the first resurrection, the second death, which is perishing in the lake of fire had NO POWER OVER THOSE WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

To confirm what I'm saying~John clearly said they had died not experiencing the first resurrection lived not again until the thousand years were finished~which would be a time when ALL shall rise per John 5:

John 5:25-29~"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (this IS the FIRST resurrection~RB ) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This is the SECOND resurrection per the word of God.

[RB]

And apparently you have also missed Rev. 1:19 where John was told to write "the things which thou HAST seen" (PAST events John already knew about), and "the things which ARE" (presently happening back then in John's days), "and the things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (the NEAR future for John's first-century readers).  These prophecies of the near future that John wrote down were ALL fulfilled soon after John wrote about them.

A couple of thoughts concerning your posts. 

You are very deceitfully adding to God's word~shame on you. Revelation 1:19 does not read the way you said~here's John's exact words, if you care to know:

"Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Hereafter covers the entire church age from John to the Great White Throne Judgment, and right on into the world yet to come! You added:

"and the things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter"

That's a very bold act of you adding to God's word in spite of warnings to all that read the prophecies of Revelation!

Revelation 22:18,19~"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

You would do well if you heed this warning from heaven.

I have a few words for you on your teaching from Revelation 7~but I will do another post later. 

[3 Resurrections]

No, RB, I am NOT "deceitfully adding to God's word.  No "shame" accrues to me for using the YLT translation of this verse, which acknowledges just how soon those Revelation prophecies were to take place (as presently near in John's days). 

The KJV version (which I know you hold to as the ONLY permissible version to use) has missed the full implication of the Greek "mellei" term in Rev. 1:19.  Four translations at least do NOT miss the imminence of the "mellei" term in Rev. 1:19 for Revelation's prophetic fulfillments, even if the KJV translators were reluctant to do so.  You are crippled in your understanding if you are devoted solely to the one KJV.

Here it is in the YLT for those who, unlike you, do not limit themselves to just one version.

"Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are ABOUT TO COME after these things;"

What really bothers me is that you still have not found a moment to study Gods definition of what an "AT HAND" prophecy means in Ezekiel 12:21-28.  This requires no Greek whatever, and clearly brackets all of  Revelation's unsealed, written prophecies of the future (from the very beginning of the book to the very end) to a time that was PRESENTLY EXISTING in John's days.  Yet you cannot seem to face this definition that God Himself gives you in Ezekiel 12:21-28 and apply it consistently to Revelation 1:3 and 22:10. 

I know you are a busy man and you struggle with weariness, but as long as I have been encouraging you to address this point, you seem very reluctant to do so.  Why is that?

[Rella]

Not to hijack your reply to Amo but a question or two beg for a comment.

The number of 144,000 is an impressive amount, but it is not ALL who had been listed in Rev. 20:4; it's only PART of their number - a "REMNANT" of that list of dead ones.  This is the "REMNANT" who "lived again" in the "First resurrection" when the resurrecting Christ brought them with Him out of the grave.

Where is this written?

And it is YOU, Amo, who mistakenly wants to hang onto the idea that God did not destroy Satan when He promised to in Romans 16:20.  There are many such proofs in scripture of when the demonic realm was burned up long ago, but you either just gloss over them, or you aren't interested.  The REAL enemy at present is no further away than our own deceptive hearts.

  Amo is right. You are not

I have never taken the position that there is no prophetic guidance from scripture for us in these New Covenant ages.  Have you missed where I have spoken on this topic of what we presently can expect until Christ's final return?  I have not been silent on this.

Well, I for one have missed it. Would you please start a dedicated thread on the idea of "prophetic guidance from scripture for us in these New Covenant ages"?

And apparently you have also missed Rev. 1:19 where John was told to write "the things which thou HAST seen" (PAST events John already knew about), and "the things which ARE" (presently happening back then in John's days), "and the things which are ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (the NEAR future for John's first-century readers).  These prophecies of the near future that John wrote down were ALL fulfilled soon after John wrote about them.

You still cannot provide any "proof" that Revelation was not written in 96.

Interesting enough that Dr. J. MacArthur, a premillennialist, says this about the dating of Revelation.

Those who hold to the early date [pre- A.D. 70] see in Jerusalem's destruction the prophesied second coming of Jesus Christ in its first phase. External evidence for the earlier (Neronian) date is almost nonexistent. On the other hand, the view that the apostle John penned Revelation near the end of Domitian's reign was widely held in the early church. The second-century church father Irenaeus wrote . . .[see above quote] . . . The church fathers Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus, Eusebius, and Jerome also affirm that Revelation was written during Domitian's reign . . . The testimony of the early church that Revelation was written during Domitian's reign is difficult to explain if it was actually written during Nero's reign
https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written/

I shall stop before I drag this in another direction from the OT

[Amo]

We are going way off topic for this thread. I'm going to start another one under the title of Preterism in a bit, so we can continue without steering this thread way off course. If I can, I will copy and paste the posts here which have been addressing the same.

[Amo]

Bad idea trying to copy and paste posts to another thread. To time consuming and problematic. I'll just ask all of us debating Preterism to please shift the discussion to the thread started for the same. Thank you.

[3 Resurrections]

Sorry to have drifted from the main thrust of your topic, Amo.  Yet the subject of what was then "AT HAND" in Revelation is very relevant indeed to who the "kings of the earth" were.

Since scripture equates these "kings of the earth" with the high priesthood role in Israel (not the other "kings of the whole habitable world", which is something else in Rev. 16:14), this role was physically eradicated by the close of AD 70. 

In GOD's EYES, the "change in the law" concerning the priesthood had occurred with Christ being ordained our high priest on His resurrection-day ascension.  However, the rebellious Jews at that time who would not acknowledge Jesus as that "Great high priest" needed to have their system physically squashed in front of them in AD 70 - just to erase the possibility of the whole competitive system ever being re-established.  No individual Jew today can prove an unbroken line of descent from the formerly-approved ZADOK family line, which prevents them, as "polluted", from ever claiming that high priesthood position (per Ezra 2:62's restriction).

Why is this important?  Because every single prophecy in Revelation regarding the "kings of the earth" as high priests would REQUIRE that their fulfillment take place while there were still "kings of the earth" / high priests still around to perform those actions.  In other words, this term "kings of the earth" limits Revelation's prophetic fulfillments to the time PRIOR TO AD 70, when the tribes' genealogical family records were all burned up and the temple priesthood operations were physically squashed for all time.

[Amo]

Getting off topic is easy, as everything scriptural is connected one way or another. Done it myself many times. When I have some time I'll continue our conversation in the Preterism thread.

[Amo]

https://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/cuomo-de-blasio-embrace-pope-s-message-as-visit-nears-1.10868205

Quoted article below from link above.

Cuomo, de Blasio embrace pope's message as visit nears

Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo and Mayor Bill de Blasio on Sunday both evoked and commended Pope Francis' message of social and economic justice before the pontiff's visit this week to New York City.

"Repentance, forgiveness, non-judgementalism, nondiscrimination, helping those who are less fortunate, that's Pope Francis' gospel," Cuomo said at a service at Mount Neboh Baptist Church in Harlem. "There's an opportunity for us, because the essential message is do justice."

The governor said Francis has "transcended" Catholics and Christians and been embraced by all religions.

De Blasio, in an interview on ABC's "This Week," shared the same sentiment, saying, "His holiness has captured the imagination of the entire world -- Catholic believers and nonbelievers and people of all faiths -- because he's talking about what a moral structure looks like that actually is inclusive."

The mayor said the Catholic church preaches "fairness in every sense."

He and Cuomo, fellow Democrats and frequent political rivals, took to separate pulpits Sunday to promote separate agenda items using the pope's call for justice and equity. De Blasio, at the Christian Cultural Center in East New York, Brooklyn, called for raising standards in education while Cuomo at Mount Neboh called for the raising of the state's minimum wage.

The governor urged the parishioners to back his push for a $15 minimum wage for all workers. His office later Sunday said 96 clergy members had signed on to the Mario Cuomo Campaign for Economic Justice, named for the former governor, Andrew Cuomo's late father.

[Amo]

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2021/05/13/pope-francis-president-argentina-abortion-law-240652

Pope Francis meets with Argentina's president, months after the country legalizes abortion

ROME (AP) — Pope Francis met Thursday with Argentine President Alberto Fernandez, months after Argentina legalized abortion despite a personal appeal from the pontiff and opposition from the Catholic Church......................

[Amo]

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/247677/pope-francis-and-john-kerry-meet-at-the-vatican

Pope Francis and John Kerry meet at the Vatican

Pope Francis met with U.S. President Joe Biden's climate envoy John Kerry on Saturday.

Kerry is in Europe to meet with government officials and business leaders ahead of the Nov. 1-12 United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP26) in Glasgow, the State Department said..............................

[Amo]

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/06/974350536/pope-holds-historic-meeting-with-iraqs-top-shiite-cleric-preaches-message-of-uni

Pope Holds Historic Meeting With Iraq's Top Shiite Cleric, Preaches Message Of Unity

Pope Francis sought to reinforce ties across religions during the second day of his trip to Iraq, visiting a top Shiite Muslim cleric on Saturday and leading a meeting with representatives of different faiths at the ancient site of Ur in the south of the country..................

[Amo]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-pope-francis-meets-with-lebanese-pm-designate-saad-hariri-urges-end-of/

Pope Francis meets with Lebanese PM-designate Saad Hariri, urges end of crises

Pope Francis met Thursday with Lebanese Prime Minister-designate Saad Hariri and urged all of Lebanon's political leaders to "urgently commit themselves to the benefit of the nation," the Vatican said.

Francis also reaffirmed during the 30-minute audience his desire to visit Lebanon as soon as conditions permit, according to a statement from the Vatican spokesman...............................

[Amo]

https://medium.com/ave-maria/pope-francis-meets-with-argentinas-president-d56396c6e6da

Pope Francis Meets with Argentina's President

Pope Francis meets Thursday with the President of Argentina, Alberto Fernández, at a private audience in the Vatican.

By Vatican News staff writer

The Holy See Press Office announced Thursday that Pope Francis met with Argentine President Alberto Fernández during a private audience in the Paul VI Hall........................

[Amo]

I have neglected this thread again. Time to add a few updates.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/americas/pope-francis-canada-residential-schools/index.html

Canadian Indigenous leaders push for residential schools apology in Pope Francis meeting


CNN — Pope Francis on Monday met Indigenous leaders and survivors of Canada residential schools who are seeking a papal apology for the harm inflicted for decades on Indigenous children.

At the Vatican, representatives for the Métis and Inuit, some of the largest Indigenous groups in Canada, urged Pope Francis to travel to their country to apologize for the Catholic Church's role in the residential schools system.

During both hour-long meetings, the Pope intended to "listen and do space for the painful stories brought by the survivors," the Vatican said in a statement.............................

[Amo]

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2021/11/04/pope-francis-mahmoud-abbas-241784

Pope Francis meets with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas

After Pope Francis and his senior advisors had separate meetings with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on the morning of Nov. 4, the Vatican issued a statement insisting that it is "absolutely necessary to reactivate direct dialogue" between Israelis and Palestinians "to achieve a two-state solution."

The Vatican called on the international community to make a "more vigorous effort" to assist this dialogue between the two peoples.

The Vatican also insisted on the need to ensure that the status of Jerusalem be recognized as "a Holy City for all three Abrahamic religions" and that this be guaranteed "through a special internationally guaranteed status."......

[Amo]

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/250692/pope-francis-discusses-ukraine-war-with-russian-orthodox-leader

Pope Francis discusses Ukraine war with Russian Orthodox leader

Moscow, Russia, Mar 16, 2022 / 09:52 am

Pope Francis discussed the Ukraine war on Wednesday with the head of the Russian Orthodox Church.

The pope and Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia addressed the conflict during a video conference call on March 16.

The conversation, which took place in the early afternoon Rome time, was first reported by the Patriarchate of Moscow and later confirmed by the Holy See press office.

"The conversation centered on the war in Ukraine and the role of Christians and their pastors in doing everything to ensure that peace prevails," the press office said.

The Vatican noted that the pope thanked Patriarch Kirill for the meeting and agreed with him that "the Church must not use the language of politics, but the language of Jesus."............................

[Amo]

https://www.voanews.com/a/president-joe-biden-meets-with-pope-francis-at-the-vatican/6290605.html

Biden Meets With Pope Francis at Vatican

ROME/WHITE HOUSE —
U.S. President Joe Biden spoke Friday about his 75-minute private meeting with Pope Francis, saying the two men prayed together for peace and discussed global issues like climate change, as Biden prepares for a whirlwind diplomatic tour that includes a gathering of the world's wealthiest nations and a major climate summit.

Biden said the two men did not discuss an issue currently dividing the U.S. Catholic church: the divide between Biden's personal opposition to abortion and his stance as president, where he has fought against efforts by states to limit abortion access. Some conservative American bishops are seeking to deny Biden access to communion over this stance.

When asked about the matter, Biden said: "we just talked about the fact that he was happy I was a good Catholic."............................

[Amo]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-hopes-to-join-the-world-religions-congress-in-kazakhstan/

Pope Francis to attend 'interfaith' meeting on 'gender equality' and 'global dialogue'

(LifeSiteNews) – Pope Francis has expressed his intention of joining the upcoming 7th World Religions Congress in Kazakhstan in September in a move that will give great importance to one of the major interreligious meetings at international level.

The Congress has met every three years in Nur-Sultan (formerly Astana) in the mainly Islamic country of Kazakhstan since 2003, and aims to promote "interfaith" tolerance, harmony, and dialogue under the auspices of the government of the former Soviet Republic............................

[Amo]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-secretly-met-abortion-pushing-pfizer-ceo-twice-last-year/

Pope Francis secretly met with abortion-pushing Pfizer CEO twice last year

VATICAN CITY (LifeSiteNews) – It has emerged that Pope Francis secretly met with Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla in two officially unconfirmed meetings during 2021.

Writing in the National Catholic Register, Vatican journalist Edward Pentin broke the news that in 2021 Pope Francis met twice with Bourla, the CEO and chairman of pharmaceutical giant Pfizer. The meetings took place at the Vatican in a circumstance Pentin likened to Pope Francis' secret 2019 meeting with Melinda Gates.

The revelation is perhaps no great surprise, given that the Vatican exclusively administers (and now mandates) Pfizer's abortion-tainted COVID-19 injection for employees, and Pope Francis has been one of the foremost promoters of COVID shots.

Pentin wrote that the meetings were confirmed by "Vatican sources" as the meetings were not included in the Vatican's daily announcements, noting also that the topics discussed were still a mystery...................

[Amo]

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2022-03/pope-francis-audience-president-lebanon.html

Pope Francis meets with Lebanese President Aoun

Pope Francis holds a private audience with Michel Aoun, the President of Lebanon, discussing the Middle Eastern nation's serious socio-economic problems and political reforms.

Lebanese President Michel Aoun met with Pope Francis in the Vatican on Monday.

The roughly 30-minute meeting highlighted the good diplomatic relations between the Holy See and Lebanon, which are marking their 75th anniversary this year.

A statement from the Holy See Press Office said the talks were "cordial", adding that the two leaders discussed various interests of common concern....................................

[Amo]

https://nypost.com/2021/10/09/nancy-pelosi-meets-with-pope-francis-at-the-vatican/

Nancy Pelosi meets Pope Francis at Vatican amid abortion controversy

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi met with Pope Francis at the Vatican Saturday morning amid mounting furor over abortion rights in the US.

A smiling Pelosi gripped the Pontiff's hand tightly in a series of photos released by the Vatican. She was escorted by her husband Paul Pelosi — a noted investor — and Patrick Connell, the Charges d'Affaires of the US Embassy to the Vatican, in her visit to the Apostolic Palace.

The papal audience came as Pelosi, a lifelong Roman Catholic, has faced increasing criticism from some American bishops for her support of abortion.

"This is about freedom, about freedom of women having a choice about the size and timing of their families," Pelosi said last month as she pushed the House to pass a bill that would block state restrictions on abortion.

A federal appeals court on Friday ruled that Texas can resume its near-total abortion ban as a Department of Justice lawsuit challenging the state's new "heartbeat law" winds its way through the courts....................

[Amo]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/05/pope-francis-baghdad-iraq-tour

Pope Francis meets Grand Ayatollah Sistani on historic Iraq tour

Pope Francis has had a symbolic meeting with Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, one of the most senior clerics in Shia Islam, in Iraq's holy city of Najaf.

The historic meeting in Sistani's home was months in the making, with every detail painstakingly discussed and negotiated between the ayatollah's office and the Vatican.

When the time came, the 84-year-old pontiff's convoy, led by a bullet-proof vehicle, pull up along Najaf's narrow and column-lined Rasool Street, which culminates at the golden-domed Imam Ali Shrine, one of the most revered sites in the world for Shia. He then walked the few metres to Sistani's modest home, which the cleric has rented for decades.

A group of Iraqis wearing traditional clothes welcomed him outside. As a masked Francis entered the doorway a few white doves were released in a sign of peace.

The closed-door meeting was to touch on issues plaguing Iraq's Christian minority. Sistani is a deeply revered figure in Shia-majority Iraq and and his opinions on religious and other matters are sought by Shia worldwide......................

[Amo]

https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/vatican-financial-watchdog-signs-accord-us-treasury-department

Quoted article below from link above. This article is old, but significant, surprised I never noticed it. What is our treasury department doing signing accords with the Vatican?

Vatican financial watchdog signs accord with U.S. Treasury Department

VATICAN CITY — In its latest bid to tackle corruption and increase transparency, the Vatican's financial watchdog has signed a bilateral accord to exchange information with its counterpart in the U.S.

On Monday, officials with the Financial Information Authority announced it endorsed the agreement with the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, an independent body in the U.S. Treasury Department responsible for regulating and supervising domestic and foreign banks.

This is the latest example of the authority's efforts to build international cooperation and prevent a repeat of the corruption scandals that have engulfed the Vatican bank, known as the Institute for the Works of Religion.

"This is a further step in the Holy See's efforts towards perfecting a system of financial regulation and part of our commitment to transparency and international cooperation," said Rene Bruelhart, the Swiss-born director of the authority, known as AIF.

"The Holy See is part of the global family of well-regulated jurisdictions and the signing of this agreement reflects that very clearly."

Monday's announcement came less than a month after Pope Francis dismissed the five-man board of the financial watchdog in a controversial move that underscored his hard line on cleaning up Vatican finances.

Juan Zarate, a former senior Treasury official and counterterrorism expert, was the only American among the four new appointments but it is not clear what specific role he played in finalizing the agreement between the U.S. and the AIF.

The Vatican watchdog expects further agreements with financial supervisors and regulators around the world as it strengthens its own regulatory infrastructure in the fights against money laundering and the financing of terrorism.

Regardless of the reasoning or reasons, our treasury or any part or branch of our government, should be signing accords with religious institutions. Let alone the religio-political globalist Vatican. Who now are apparently very informed regarding our treasury.

http://concordatwatch.org

Quotes below from link above.

Concordats — separation of church and state — human rights

This site examines how Vatican concordats entangle church and state,
and can prevent the free exercise of some human rights.

A concordat is a legal agreement between a country and the Vatican. It can set up a theological fiefdom where certain human rights do not apply—and where they can never again be reintroduced without the consent of the Catholic Church. This is why concordats represent a fundamental threat to both democracy and human rights. The Vatican finds many uses for its over 200 current concordats. In May 2012 the Italian bishops even said that their concordat excused them from having to report to the police suspected cases of child abuse by fellow priests. Concordat Watch is an online resource containing dozens of concordat translations, (most appearing in English for the first time), as well as related documents, general background articles and expert commentary. The editor is Muriel Fraser (who is responsible for all unsigned material) and the platform is generously provided by Notanant.

What are concordats? Concordats are international treaties with the Vatican that may range from granting little more than diplomatic recognition to a legally binding commitment to observe key aspects of Vatican doctrine and to have taxpayers subsidise the Church. Because the state may be put under pressure to enforce these Vatican policies, Concordat Watch also includes material on church-state separation. In other words, it treats political, but not religious secularism. As the Armenian author Sevan Nisanyan said, "I am not in the habit of discussing religious belief. ...[It] only becomes fair game when it tries to impose itself by force or by legal subterfuge."

What's the harm?

1. Once in place, concordats are removed from democratic control forever 

Laws can be changed by parliaments, but concordats can't. That's because they're supposed to be international treaties, that is, agreements between a real country and the Holy See (the Vatican).

Even in democracies there is only a brief period, when the legislature has any say over a concordat. That is the time between when the treaty text is revealed and when the ratification vote takes place. This can sometimes be only a matter of days, which does not allow proper legal scrutiny of a very complicated document. A number of other legislative tricks may be used to help get the concordat through: sixteen of these are revealed here. Once the concordat is ratified it is set in stone. That's because treaties cannot be changed unilaterally. Any alteration requires the consent of the Vatican.

And in a dictorship it's still worse. The concordat may be rubber-stamped by the military junta or even go through with no ratification at all, for the signature of the dictator or his foreign minister is enough. Yet when the dictator is toppled, his concordat remains.  Read more

2. Concordats can ensure a never-ending transfer of state funds to the Church

Sometimes the money transfer is justified as compensation for church property nationalised as long as 200 years ago. Concordats can lock in inflation-adjusted payments that cannot be ended unless the Vatican agrees.

Concordats often shift funds to the church by requiring that Catholic schools, hospitals and other agencies must be paid for by the state. This gives the Church the say over what is taught and what services are offered, without having to pay the tab. A concordat can also help Church agencies get tax exemptions, even for Church-run commercial enterprises. And, despite all the state money flowing in, a concordat can ensure that the finances of the Church are kept secret.

3. Concordats can infringe on human rights

By giving advantages to one religious group, concordats can violate the requirement that all citizens and all religions be treated equally. Occasionally concordats have outlawed divorce, even for non-Catholics. Concordats can also anchor other parts of Canon (or church) Law by stipulating that this is to be used within Church institutions. However, since these also include social agencies, many non-clerics and even non-Catholics may find themselves legally obliged to obey Church rules.

A concordat can also anchor Church doctrine in a country's legal system. For instance, the concordat with Hitler (art. 9) ensures that even crimes cannot be reported if they have come to light through confession. This has contributed to perpetuating child abuse.

[Amo]

https://www.concordatwatch.eu/what-are-concordats--t822

Quotes below from link above.

What are Concordats?


These church-state accords, known under various names, can give the Catholic Church massive state subsidies and other privileges. They can also let Church employees be hounded about their private lives. Yet as "international treaties", once ratified, concordats cannot be changed by parliaments. Most have been concluded with the Vatican, but now many are being made with the Order of Malta which functions as the Pope's "wholly-owned subsidiary".

"International treaties"

A concordat is an agreement between the Vatican and a foreign state. These agreements give privileges to the Church, but generally offer few advantages to the state, though they are often politically useful for the rulers.

The Roman Catholic Church tries to make concordats whenever this becomes politically possible. To do this it uses many strategems to get these agreements past democratic legislatures. Once this is achieved the concordats are set in stone. This is because the Vatican claims to be a country [1], making these accords as binding as international treaties

Concordat privileges are so tempting that other churches, large and small, now clamour for equivalent "church-state treaties". These include the Lutheran Church in Germany and the Orthodox Church in Belarus, Armenia and Georgia and even the Seventh Day Adventists in the Czech Republic. [2] As a Catholic theologian says, "the Catholic Church has opened the way for all religious communities to enjoy the same rights". [3] By sharing the spoils, this delivers a fundamental blow to separation of church and state.

Concordats are made on many levels

There are now about as many concordats worldwide as there are sovereign states — about 200 — and the number of new concordats can be expected to outpace the number of new states.. This is because concordats can be made with
♦  an individual nation
♦  a group of countries (like the Organisation of African Unity)
♦  a regional government within a nation (like the more than 30 concordats with the 16 states of Germany)
♦  or even a single building, if it opens the door to a secular country (like the French convent in Rome) or has enough money attached to it (like the notorious "Basilica in the Bush")

Concordats not necessary to guarantee religious freedom

The Vatican's foreign minister has claimed that the aim of concordats is "to protect the freedom of the Church in a country, and the right of individual faithful and citizens to religious freedom." For this, however, concordats are not necessary. There are three proven ways to guarantee religious freedom, none of which involve concordats. These are through domestic legislation, through a country's constitution and through its human rights agreements with international bodies like the United Nations and the European Union.

In fact, religious freedom hardly seems to be correlated with concordats. Countries without concordats include Northern Europe and the English-speaking world, while countries with concordats included almost all the Fascist states of the 1920s to the 1940s. If anything, the correlation between concordats and religious freedom looks like a negative one.

Set in stone

Concordats differ in detail from state to state, as they codify the already existing church privileges ― and try to slip in as many more as the local political climate will allow. Once agreed upon, these new Church privileges are removed from democratic control. All other legislation is under parliamentary control and can be amended by it. However, as a treaty, a concordat cannot be altered except by mutual consent. In practice this only happens (occasionally) when the Vatican fears that the concordat will be broken or (frequently) when it feels that it can get even more privileges through a new concordat. A cardinal frankly admits that the advantage of concordats resides precisely in this independence from democratic control:

[Other agreements] are subject to local law and therefore will always be fragile, insofar as they are dependent upon the hazards posed by the political regimes or parliamentary majorities of the future. [4]

By the back door

Originally concordats were agreements between two monarchs: the pope who ruled the Papal States and the ruler of the other country. John Paul II was able to make such an agreement with King Hassan II of Morocco in 1983-1984. In such cases there is no parliament to complicate matters. Today, however, with both absolute monarchs and dictators hard to come by, concluding a concordat is not so easy: the pope is the only remaining absolute ruler in Europe. This has obliged the Vatican to develop many ways of getting concordats approved by sceptical parliamentarians.

Sometimes the text of the concordat may be kept secret until it has been signed which prevents any discussion of its terms by parliament or the public. By the time the legislators and the public find out what the concordat says, it can no longer be altered, only approved or rejected as a whole. And sometimes parliament is even expected to vote on this complex ― and permanent ― legal document too quickly for any real scrutiny. If that doesn't work a concordat may sit unratified for years until the  political climate allows it to be ratified and cast in stone. For more on this, see Twenty tricks to get a concordat through.

Tithes without worshippers

By hook or by crook the Church tries to get itself concordats. These allow the Church to extend its privileges, including massive state subsidies, even as, in many countries, its membership is decreasing ― and it also locks these payments in. This is why in the 1990s the Slovak government wanted to introduce a "church tax" (a fixed percentage of the income tax paid by church members), whereas the Church insisted on maintaining the status quo, (an annual donation according to present "needs"). [5] If the Church succeeds in getting "present need" funding enshrined in the future concordat on finances (to which it is bound by art. 20), there will be no realistic possibility of reducing the state contribution ― ever.

Conclusion

A concordat does three things.

♦  First, it installs a ratchet. The concordat itself cements previously-granted privileges and adds new ones. And the ratchet effect doesn't end there, for a "general concordat" may be used to sets up the framework for more detailed ones to come. The general concordat acts as the thin edge of the wedge: its terms are vague enough to make it easy to get through parliament, but if the parliamentarians later balk at the more detailed concordats, they are told that they have already agreed to them in principle. [6] And if the general concordat has included an "aim" to conclude them within a certain time, this can be used to apply more pressure, by presenting it to the media as a "promise". [7] A framework concordat is like a Russian doll containing more.

♦  Second, and even more ominously, because a concordat claims the status of international law, it prevents Church privileges, including massive state subsidies, from ever again being brought under democratic control.

♦  And third, a concordat stipulates that "Church institutions" are governed by Canon Law (the law of the Catholic Church). However, since the Church is permitted to run various social services ― with state support, of course ― the laws which govern these Church institutions also affect those who work and those who are served by them. This legal manoeuvre means that a concordat can set up a theological fiefdom where certain human rights do not apply ― and where they can never be reintroduced without the consent of the Church.

By means of concordats Vatican diplomats and lawyers are mounting an attack on many of the freedoms that we have won since then ― rights that we had come to think were unassailable. The Vatican's concordats pose an increasing threat to both democracy and human rights.

[Amo]

https://nypost.com/2022/08/11/pope-francis-meets-with-transgender-guests-of-rome-church/

Pope Francis meets with transgender guests of Rome church

ROME — Pope Francis has met with a fourth group of transgender people who found shelter at a Rome church, the Vatican newspaper reported Thursday.

L'Osservatore Romano said the encounter took place Wednesday on the sidelines of Francis' weekly general audience. The newspaper quoted Sister Genevieve Jeanningros and the Rev. Andrea Conocchia as saying the pope's welcome brought their guests hope.

The Blessed Immaculate Virgin community in the Torvaianica neighborhood on Rome's outskirts opened its doors to transgender people during the coronavirus pandemic.

Francis previously met with some of them on April 27, June 22 and Aug. 3, the newspaper said.

"No one should encounter injustice or be thrown away, everyone has dignity of being a child of God," the paper quoted Sister Jeanningros as saying.

Francis has earned praise from some members of the LBGTQ community for his outreach. When asked in 2013 about a purportedly gay priest, he replied, "Who am I to judge?" He has met individually and in groups with transgender people over the course of his pontificate..........................

[Amo]

https://www.romereports.com/en/2022/09/02/pope-francis-meets-with-artists-music-star-j-balvin-he-is-the-coolest-pope-ive-known/

Pope Francis meets with artists music star J Balvin: "He is the coolest pope I've known"

Over 25 actors, singers, and artists from around the world met with Pope Francis for two and a half hours at the Vatican. They participated in an initiative organized by the Vatican and the Vitae Foundation, which seeks to transmit values through the arts. They had a long conversation with the Pope, who spoke to them without prepared remarks.
........................................

[Amo]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/pope-francis-apple-ceo-tim-cook-meet-private-vatican-sit-down

Pope Francis, Apple CEO Tim Cook meet in private Vatican sit-down
Pope Francis previously met with Tesla CEO Elon Musk earlier this year

Pope Francis met with Apple CEO Tim Cook on Monday at a private sit-down in Rome.

The pontiff hosted the tech titan at the Vatican, the latest business mogul to request an audience with the pope after a headline-making meeting with Elon Musk.

"This morning, the Holy Father Francis received in audience [...] Mr. Timothy Donald Cook, Chief Executive Officer of Apple," the Vatican published in its official diary of papal audiences.

The specifics of the discussion have not been disclosed, though many have speculated that artificial intelligence is at the forefront of both leaders' minds....................

[Amo]

https://www.ncregister.com/cna/pope-francis-to-meet-muslim-leaders-small-christian-community-in-bahrain

Pope Francis to Meet Muslim Leaders, Small Christian Community in Bahrain

On the first-ever papal visit to the Kingdom of Bahrain, Pope Francis will close a forum on dialogue, meet with the grand imam of al-Azhar, and pray at a new Catholic cathedral.

The Vatican released the full itinerary for the Pope's Nov. 3-6 trip to the Muslim island nation in the Persian Gulf.

The theme of the visit is "Peace on earth to people of goodwill," inspired by Luke 2:14. The logo is a stylized image of two hands open toward God: one in the colors of the Vatican flag and one with the flag of Bahrain. An olive branch represents peace, while the text "Pope Francis" is in the color blue to represent the visit's entrustment to the Virgin Mary...................