Mary's Sinlessness: A Biblical Documentary

[Isaias]

This video is for those who have a genuine interest to understand how Mary was conceived without original sin.  For those who would think that Mary was born in original sin, that Jesus took from Mary, corrupted flesh, would have to admit that the human nature of Jesus, is corrupt.  But this is not so.  Its impossible.

Mary's Sinlessness: A Biblical Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTVyptxPQ04&t=0s&list=PLGVSKByrYzsufIKilFHFUDlvpSYFlSuvT&index=3

[Alan]

For those who would think that Mary was born in original sin, that Jesus took from Mary, corrupted flesh, would have to admit that the human nature of Jesus, is corrupt.  But this is not so.  Its impossible.

Nah, you just fabricated that idea, it isn't scriptural unless you really stretch the word.

[chosenone]

Oh no another old unbiblical chestnut. Again its totally unbiblical that Mary was anything but a sinner in need of a saviour just like the rest of us.

Romans 3:23 New International Version
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

or maybe your bible says all apart from Mary and her parents and their parents.

[Alan]

or maybe your bible says all apart from Mary and her parents and their parents.

Do you think that if Jesus could only come from uncorrupted flesh; His mother Mary, that Mary could have came from corrupted flesh?    Where does it end?

[Isaias]

Nah, you just fabricated that idea, it isn't scriptural unless you really stretch the word.

Its not an idea.  It is a rudimentary principle.  If one takes flesh from corrupted flesh, then the new flesh from where it was taken, is corrupt flesh.  Now, of course, this cannot apply to Jesus, which means that Mary, was conceived without original sin, in the same way that Eve was created good, immaculate without any sin.  This is not hard to understand.  Watch the video.

[Alan]

Its not an idea.  It is a rudimentary principle. 

It's your principle, not a biblical principal.

[Isaias]

It's your principle, not a biblical principal.

You know that it is not my principle.

[Alan]

You know that it is not my principle.

If you could kindly point that out, chapter and vs 

[Isaias]

If you could kindly point that out, chapter and vs 

Let me start this way and then I will give you the verse.  Alan, if you build a house with contaminated materials, the end result, the house itself, will be contaminated.  And since God is the creator of all things, angels, man, the material world etc, therefore all science, and principles are His.  Read Job 38 verses 1-5, I am not going to post the whole chapter but it is equally identical to the point.

Job 38:1-5[1] Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

[chosenone]

For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. 

Where in His word does God says that she was without sin? Where does it say that she never had sex with her God given husband? Where does it say that we must pray to her or say hail Marys? We have shown you the verses that disprove your ideas, but you haven't shown us where God says these things. Still waiting.

[Isaias]

For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. 

Where in His word does God says that she was without sin? Where does it say that she never had sex with her God given husband? Where does it say that we must pray to her or say hail Marys? We have shown you the verses that disprove your ideas, but you haven't shown us where God says these things. Still waiting.

Watch and listen to the video.  Truth will set you free.

[Alan]

Let me start this way and then I will give you the verse.  Alan, if you build a house with contaminated materials, the end result, the house itself, will be contaminated.  And since God is the creator of all things, angels, man, the material world etc, therefore all science, and principles are His.  Read Job 38 verses 1-5, I am not going to post the whole chapter but it is equally identical to the point.

Job 38:1-5[1] Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

<<<<<<<Streettccchhhhhiiiinngg>>>>>>


No, I ain't buy'n it.

[chosenone]

Watch and listen to the video.  Truth will set you free.

No thanks, I dont want to hear any more unbiblical nonsense. BTW I was set free by Jesus Christ 40 years ago.

I will say again ALL have sinned. All means ALL. Now I am no Biblical scholar but I know what all means.
Not all except Mary and her parents and her parents and so on. 
The Bible says that only Jesus Christ was sinless. Mary was a human being as we all are, chosen for a special task. 

[AVZ]

Let me start this way and then I will give you the verse.  Alan, if you build a house with contaminated materials, the end result, the house itself, will be contaminated.  And since God is the creator of all things, angels, man, the material world etc, therefore all science, and principles are His.  Read Job 38 verses 1-5, I am not going to post the whole chapter but it is equally identical to the point.

Job 38:1-5[1] Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

This argument is completely moot.
Mary's parents were not conceived without original sin, neither were they sinless.
The Catholic Church holds that by special act from God, Mary was conceived sinless nevertheless.

What escapes the Catholic Church is that is such and act was possible for Mary, where a sinless person could be conceived by "contaminated" people, the exact same act would also have been possible for Jesus.

So it was not absolutely necessary for Mary to be conceived sinless, in order for her to give birth to a sinless Christ.
And if it was not necessary for her parents, then it was not necessary for her.

[winsome]

 In another thread Alan asked me: How can you be certain she [Mary] lived her life sinless?   

I answered:
We believe by faith, but a faith based on reason, Scripture and Tradition
  Salvation is not just being raised up from sin. It is being raised up to glory to share the in life of God, to an intimate union with God.
 
"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature." (2Pet 1:3-4).
 
This is a gift from God - grace, the grace that only Jesus can give.
  "Be holy because I am holy".
How holy is God? – 100%

"Be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect"
How perfect is our heavenly Father? – 100%

We must be 100% holy and perfect without even the slightest hint of a shadow of a spot or wrinkle if we are to be united with an all holy God. Pretence (covering up) will not do. We must be totally purified, full of grace.

When Gabriel greeted Mary he said Chaire Ketcharitomen, which is often badly translated as Hail, favoured one.
Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace.  The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.
 
   "It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

Mary was completely, perfectly, enduringly filled with grace from the moment of her conception. She was not just saved from the effects of original sin but was made fit for an intimate union with God, both in this life (she carried God in her womb) and in the life to come.
 
She was totally holy as a fitting mother for Jesus. Why would God allow his only Son to be born by a fallen sinful woman when he could fill her with grace to be holy and pure?
 
As Job said "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one." (Job 14:4).
 
As Mary herself said "he who is mighty has done great things for me" (Lk 1:49)
 
The original ark of the Covenant was made from incorruptible wood and covered inside and out with pure gold, yet the shenikar cloud only rested on the ark not inside as God dwelt in Mary's womb. Thus the anti-type was incorruptible.
 
Moreover Jude says: Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25) Why would Jesus not keep his mother from falling and to present her without blemish before the presence of his glory?
 
"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam.  Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin"  (Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118 22::30; c. 387 AD).

"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins--for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?--so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (St. Augustine Nature and Grace 36:45, c. 415 AD).

I would just add this

I think that generally Catholics understand grace differently to Protestants. For Catholics grace is something real, a quality of the soul. Sanctifying Grace is what makes us holy and fit for a life with God. Mary's immaculate conception and sinless life was only possible by the grace of God which she was filled with from her conception.

[winsome]

Do you think that if Jesus could only come from uncorrupted flesh; His mother Mary, that Mary could have came from corrupted flesh?    Where does it end?

And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour, (Lk 1:46-47)
Mary needed a Saviour. But Mary was saved in a different way to us.

An analogy is often drawn to falling into a muddy pit. We are saved by being pulled out of that pit and cleaned up. Mary was saved by being prevented from falling into the pit. She did not need cleaning up. Therefore there is no need to go back to her parents etc.

The muddy pit are the effects of original sin transmitted to us from Adam and Eve. If God had not put Mary back to the uncorrupted state that Eve was in before the fall then Jesus himself would have needed a Saviour, just as Mary did.

[winsome]

Romans 3:23 New International Version
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

or maybe your bible says all apart from Mary and her parents and their parents.

ALL does not necessarily mean literally ALL.

In 1 Cor 15:22 Paul writes: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Paul is writing about physical death and resurrection. But we know that many will not be raised to eternal life. Indeed Paul continues But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. It is those who belong to Christ who wll be raised to eternal life. All would be made alive if they believed in Christ, but not all will.

In Rom 9:11, writing about Isaac and Esau Paul says: though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad. The bad is to sin. Therefore Paul is saying that pre-born babies do not sin. So there is an exception to ALL.

[4WD]

The really strange aspect of this whole nonsensical "immaculate conception" birth of Mary, the mother of Jesus, is that the immaculate conception is the condition of birth for everyone.  Sin is not transmitted from parent to child -- ever. The spirit of the newborn is not dead.  It is given by God, Himself.

[winsome]

The really strange aspect of this whole nonsensical "immaculate conception" birth of Mary, the mother of Jesus, is that the immaculate conception is the condition of birth for everyone.  Sin is not transmitted from parent to child -- ever. The spirit of the newborn is not dead.  It is given by God, Himself.

Personal sin is not transmitted from Parent to Child. But the effects of the fall, of Adam's sin, are transmitted in that we are born in a fallen state, deprived of the grace that we need to live a life with God.

[4WD]

Personal sin is not transmitted from Parent to Child. But the effects of the fall, of Adam's sin, are transmitted in that we are born in a fallen state, deprived of the grace that we need to live a life with God.

No, winsome, the effects of Adam's sin are not transmitted.  There is only personal sin.  There is no other.  We are not born in a fallen state.  The "fallen state" is a condition of the spirit, not a condition of the flesh. Nothing about the spirit of any person is transmitted from parent to child.

[winsome]

No, winsome, the effects of Adam's sin are not transmitted.  There is only personal sin.  There is no other.  We are not born in a fallen state.  The "fallen state" is a condition of the spirit, not a condition of the flesh. Nothing about the spirit of any person is transmitted from parent to child.

So you say.

How then do we get this "fallen state"?

[4WD]

So you say.

How then do we get this "fallen state"?

We sin.

[winsome]

We sin.

Well, we do sin but that is not the answer.

Give me a couple of days and I'll start a thread on Original Sin

[4WD]

Well, we do sin but that is not the answer.

Give me a couple of days and I'll start a thread on Original Sin

OK

[Isaias]

No, winsome, the effects of Adam's sin are not transmitted.  There is only personal sin.  There is no other.  We are not born in a fallen state.  The "fallen state" is a condition of the spirit, not a condition of the flesh. Nothing about the spirit of any person is transmitted from parent to child.

That is a lie.  St. Paul confirms that by nature [original sin] children are children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:3 "In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

[Isaias]

In another thread Alan asked me: How can you be certain she [Mary] lived her life sinless?   

I answered:
We believe by faith, but a faith based on reason, Scripture and Tradition
  Salvation is not just being raised up from sin. It is being raised up to glory to share the in life of God, to an intimate union with God.
 
"His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature." (2Pet 1:3-4).
 
This is a gift from God - grace, the grace that only Jesus can give.
  "Be holy because I am holy".
How holy is God? – 100%

"Be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect"
How perfect is our heavenly Father? – 100%

We must be 100% holy and perfect without even the slightest hint of a shadow of a spot or wrinkle if we are to be united with an all holy God. Pretence (covering up) will not do. We must be totally purified, full of grace.

When Gabriel greeted Mary he said Chaire Ketcharitomen, which is often badly translated as Hail, favoured one.
Kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace.  The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.
 
   "It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).

Mary was completely, perfectly, enduringly filled with grace from the moment of her conception. She was not just saved from the effects of original sin but was made fit for an intimate union with God, both in this life (she carried God in her womb) and in the life to come.
 
She was totally holy as a fitting mother for Jesus. Why would God allow his only Son to be born by a fallen sinful woman when he could fill her with grace to be holy and pure?
 
As Job said "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one." (Job 14:4).
 
As Mary herself said "he who is mighty has done great things for me" (Lk 1:49)
 
The original ark of the Covenant was made from incorruptible wood and covered inside and out with pure gold, yet the shenikar cloud only rested on the ark not inside as God dwelt in Mary's womb. Thus the anti-type was incorruptible.
 
Moreover Jude says: Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25) Why would Jesus not keep his mother from falling and to present her without blemish before the presence of his glory?
 
"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam.  Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin"  (Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118 22::30; c. 387 AD).

"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins--for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?--so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (St. Augustine Nature and Grace 36:45, c. 415 AD).

I would just add this

I think that generally Catholics understand grace differently to Protestants. For Catholics grace is something real, a quality of the soul. Sanctifying Grace is what makes us holy and fit for a life with God. Mary's immaculate conception and sinless life was only possible by the grace of God which she was filled with from her conception.

Mary, is the Vessel of grace. 

Luke 1:27-28  To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.  And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee:

And Jesus came to the world through Mary.  Jesus is the way, the truth, the life.  But all men must go to the fountain to receive the grace.

John 14:6  Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25  I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.  In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.

Just look at the parallel language of John and the book of Ecclesiasticus!! ^^^

I do know that the KJV does not have the book of Ecclesiasticus because the devil does not want the world to know by what way they are to go [the fountain], so the devil used Martin Luther to achieve this goal of his.

Mary, is Immaculate, the Blessed and Perpetual Virgin, the garden enclosed.  Mary, is the gate of heaven.  Mary, is the fountain of grace.

Prophecy of Ezekiel 44:2-3  And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut For the prince.

Luke 1:33 ... The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Canticles 4: My sister, my spouse, is a garden enclosed, a garden enclosed, a fountain sealed up.

[soterion]

That is a lie.  St. Paul confirms that by nature [original sin] children are children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:3 "In which also we all conversed in time past, in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the will of the flesh and of our thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:

Ephesians 2:3.
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Romans 2:14.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

The word "instinctively" is the same Greek word as "nature" in Ephesians 2:3. This makes me wonder how the Gentiles could by nature do the things of the Law if they are by nature sinners from the womb. This makes no sense if "by nature" means "by birth." However, if "by nature" in this sense refers to the effects our lifestyle choices have on us, then that makes perfect sense. Our natures can change according to our choice of lifestyle and temperament.

Ephesians 2:3 is not teaching inherited sin and guilt, but rather is teaching that sin was the chosen lifestyle due to our following our own lusts and indulging in the desires of the flesh. Is that not what Adam did? He followed his own lust and indulged in his own desire. He followed the course directed by Satan.

Also, besides "by nature," the focus seems to also be on the word "children" in the passage. This is not referring to actual little ones. In John 7:44 Jesus accused those to whom He was speaking of having the devil as their father. That would make them children of the devil, although they were adults. Children in Ephesians 2 means something akin to "followers," not kids. The same is true for "sons of disobedience" in Ephesians 2:2.

Ephesians 2:1-2a starts off saying we were dead in our (not Adam's) trespasses and sins in which we formerly walked... Nothing here says we were dead in our inherited sins.

[Isaias]

Ephesians 2:3.
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Romans 2:14.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

The word "instinctively" is the same Greek word as "nature" in Ephesians 2:3. This makes me wonder how the Gentiles could by nature do the things of the Law if they are by nature sinners from the womb. This makes no sense if "by nature" means "by birth." However, if "by nature" in this sense refers to the effects our lifestyle choices have on us, then that makes perfect sense. Our natures can change according to our choice of lifestyle and temperament.

Ephesians 2:3 is not teaching inherited sin and guilt, but rather is teaching that sin was the chosen lifestyle due to our following our own lusts and indulging in the desires of the flesh. Is that not what Adam did? He followed his own lust and indulged in his own desire. He followed the course directed by Satan.

Also, besides "by nature," the focus seems to also be on the word "children" in the passage. This is not referring to actual little ones. In John 7:44 Jesus accused those to whom He was speaking of having the devil as their father. That would make them children of the devil, although they were adults. Children in Ephesians 2 means something akin to "followers," not kids. The same is true for "sons of disobedience" in Ephesians 2:2.

Ephesians 2:1-2a starts off saying we were dead in our (not Adam's) trespasses and sins in which we formerly walked... Nothing here says we were dead in our inherited sins.

It is because you are not understanding what St. Paul is saying.

Romans 2:14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:

St. Paul is talking about the laws that are written on every man's heart from the beginning.  Its called the natural law i.e. thou shalt not murder, steal, i.e. Cain and Abel.

Not everyone behaves this way, so it would imply and prove that the natural law is written on every heart from the beginning.

Its also interesting in once sense you say that there is no original sin that came from Adam but you admit that you do sin just like Adam, how can that be, if Adams original sin, did not pass to every man.  One of the punishments of Adam was death and we all die.

[winsome]

Ephesians 2:3.
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Romans 2:14.
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

The word "instinctively" is the same Greek word as "nature" in Ephesians 2:3. This makes me wonder how the Gentiles could by nature do the things of the Law if they are by nature sinners from the womb. This makes no sense if "by nature" means "by birth." However, if "by nature" in this sense refers to the effects our lifestyle choices have on us, then that makes perfect sense. Our natures can change according to our choice of lifestyle and temperament.

Ephesians 2:3 is not teaching inherited sin and guilt, but rather is teaching that sin was the chosen lifestyle due to our following our own lusts and indulging in the desires of the flesh. Is that not what Adam did? He followed his own lust and indulged in his own desire. He followed the course directed by Satan.

Also, besides "by nature," the focus seems to also be on the word "children" in the passage. This is not referring to actual little ones. In John 7:44 Jesus accused those to whom He was speaking of having the devil as their father. That would make them children of the devil, although they were adults. Children in Ephesians 2 means something akin to "followers," not kids. The same is true for "sons of disobedience" in Ephesians 2:2.

Ephesians 2:1-2a starts off saying we were dead in our (not Adam's) trespasses and sins in which we formerly walked... Nothing here says we were dead in our inherited sins.

According Paul in the letter to the Romans chap 5
12. "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned"

Who was this one man?
Answer - Adam.

It continues
16 "And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification."
17 "If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ."
18 "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."

The sin of Adam brought condemnation, not just for Adam but for all mankind.

19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous."

Many were made sinners. Adam's sin affected all mankind; it affected our nature and brought death into the world and we became separated from God and subject to condemnation.
There was a fundamental change in our relationship with God, with nature, between man and woman and indeed between all men and women since death had entered the world. There was a fundamental change in nature itself (see Rom 8:19-22).

These are the effects of the original sin of Adam.

But the good news is:

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1Cor 15:22).
When we are born we are "in Adam". We need to be "in Christ". So that "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Rom 8:1)

[soterion]

It is because you are not understanding what St. Paul is saying.

Romans 2:14  For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:

St. Paul is talking about the laws that are written on every man's heart from the beginning.  Its called the natural law i.e. thou shalt not murder, steal, i.e. Cain and Abel.

Not everyone behaves this way, so it would imply and prove that the natural law is written on every heart from the beginning.

Its also interesting in once sense you say that there is no original sin that came from Adam but you admit that you do sin just like Adam, how can that be, if Adams original sin, did not pass to every man.  One of the punishments of Adam was death and we all die.

My point is that if we are sinners and childrern of wrath as the characteristic of our birthed selves, then we cannot also do the things of the law from birth. My post was copied from another thread, and that exact point may not be as applicable here as it was there. Regardless, the applicable point here is that Ephesians 2:1-3 does not teach original sin or inherited sin guilt.

Regarding Adam's sinning and ours, we do it for the same reason. That does not mean that we inherited a sin nature. Adam was not created with a sin nature and he still sinned. We are born with the same nature that Adam was created with and we sin for the same reason.

[soterion]

winsome,

I do not believe Romans 5:12-19 teaches sin's inheritance and imputed guilt to all mankind from Adam.

Romans 5:12.
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

That verse explains the following statements in verses 15-19:
v.15, ...by the transgression of the one the many died...
v.16, ...the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation...
v.17, ...by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one...
v.18, ...through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men...
v.19, ...through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners...

It was a chain reaction process. Adam sinned and so brought sin and death into this world. Only in this way did Adam contribute to my sinfulness and condemnation. He introduced sin and its penalty into the world. Since Adam lived in an idyllic environment free from the corruption of sin and he still chose to sin, why is it any wonder that all after him that are born into this sin corrupted world would freely choose to sin just like he did?

Therefore, Adams one transgression, this one man's disobedience, was the example all after him followed (...because all sinned), which is how all were made sinners, resulting in condemnation and death. Would you say that Adam sinned due to a sin nature? I believe we sin for the same reason Adam sinned. We were no more born sinners than Adam was created a sinner. In every case, sin is a choice.

If you want to say the above quoted portions of scripture means the inheritance of sin, then how about the second part of the passages? Is justification to be imputed to all unconditionally? In verse 15 how does the free gift abound to the many? Is it automatic regardless of any choice (imputed), or do people have to choose (have faith) to receive the free gift? In verse 16 do people receive justification (despite our sins) apart from faith, or do people have to choose?

[soterion]

 
But the good news is:

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." (1Cor 15:22).
When we are born we are "in Adam". We need to be "in Christ". So that "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." (Rom 8:1)

The only problem here is that Romans 5 is addressing spiritual life and condemnation and 1 Corinthians 15 is addressing physical life and death. It is a mishandling to mix the concepts together in this way.

[Isaias]

The only problem here is that Romans 5 is addressing spiritual life and condemnation and 1 Corinthians 15 is addressing physical life and death. It is a mishandling to mix the concepts together in this way.

That would be like saying that the body can exist without the soul!

James 2:26  For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

It seems to me, thats a subtle way of promoting faith alone!

[4WD]

If you want to say the above quoted portions of scripture means the inheritance of sin, then how about the second part of the passages? Is justification to be imputed to all unconditionally? In verse 15 how does the free gift abound to the many? Is it automatic regardless of any choice (imputed), or do people have to choose (have faith) to receive the free gift? In verse 16 do people receive justification (despite our sins) apart from faith, or do people have to choose?

I would argue, and I have argued here before, that the answer to your question, "Is justification to be imputed to all unconditionally?" is definitely yes.  But I would also argue that Paul here is not speaking about our sins.  The discussion is between the effects of one act of disobedience of Adam and the one act of obedience of Jesus.  All agree that the effect of Adam's disobedience was upon all on entering the world in birth.  And so it is with the effect of Jesus' obedience.  The effect of Adam's sin was the so-called original sin.  But the effect of Jesus' sacrifice was original grace countermanding the effect of Adam's sin.  We come into this world free from any effect of Adam's sin.  God forms in each of us our spirit.  That spirit is not dead in the trespass and sin of Adam.  That spirit is not dead in trespass and sin until we commit sin.  Once a person sins he becomes a sinner and is then and only then is he dead in trespasses and sins; his trespasses and sins, not Adam's.   What Jesus' sacrifice means to the sinner is of course the basis message of the gospel.  Paul deals with that in Romans 6. 

[Norton]

Mary was "full of grace". Noah "found grace in the eyes of the Lord."  Daniel was "highly esteemed". As far as we know, none of them transmitted their grace to their progeny through the flesh, or DNA. That Jesus inherited his grace through Mary is a very suspect doctrine to me.