A brother from India

[RB]

This was just sent to me by a brother in India whom I have known for a few years an EX-Catholic.... whose parents still are and have cut him off because of his faith in the doctrines of grace.   
   
YOU NEITHER CHOOSE TO BE BORN NOR BE 'BORN-AGAIN'. 'DECISIONAL REGENERATION' – THE GREAT LIE WHICH ACCOUNTS FOR THE 'MEGA CHURCHES' OF OUR DAY.~by mike jeshurun



YOU NEITHER CHOOSE TO BE BORN NOR BE 'BORN-AGAIN'. 'DECISIONAL REGENERATION' - THE GREAT LIE WHICH ACCOUNTS FOR THE 'MEGA CHURCHES' OF OUR DAY.
Letter to a dear brother in response to his article on 'Decisional Regeneration' . . . .

Dear brother Matthew, yours was such an uplifting and scriptural article that I read it more than once and have even shared it with my friends and they in turn have shared it with their friends. (2Tim 2:2) This is indeed a MESSAGE FOR THE TIMES which those who claim to be Christians need to hear. I like the point that you brought out about the similarities between 'baptismal regeneration' and 'decisional regeneration'. It's the same error with a different coat of paint, is it not?!

When I was a newly regenerated believer who was fairly new to the Faith I had a great zeal for the Lord (I still do) and had a great desire to 'win' as many as I could to the Lord. After all does not Scripture teach that "He that winneth souls is wise?" The whole verse reads – "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." (Prov 11:30) It was many years later before the Lord taught me that both the 'righteous' and the 'wise' in that scripture is none other than the Lord of glory! It is HE who wins the rebellious and God hating soul by His sovereign grace. You and I can no more 'win a soul' than we can raise the dead!

But to return, those days I was deluded into thinking that all it took was a 'decision' that someone could make to invite Jesus into their heart because THAT is what I was taught. And I had a great burden to win my then Roman Catholic girlfriend of six years to the Lord. And so I would pray for her as though everything depended on prayer and preach to her at every given opportunity to get her to 'make that decision' for the Lord.

Little did I know that she was a lover of the writings of one Krishnamurti who is a New-Ager and she had been reading his books. So one day when I was compelling her to make this decision for the Lord and explaining to her how it was all about her choice etc, she abruptly stopped me and said "Honey, what choice are you talking about? We do not even have a choice when it comes to our birth. IF I had had a choice in the matter I would've chosen a different set of parents and a different country to be born in. So what 'choice' are you talking about? We really do not have a choice!"

Back then as an Arminian, even though I was stumped I tried to reason with her saying that "yes, while we do not have a choice as far as our birth is concerned, we still do have a choice as far as being 'born again' is concerned," etc. But now looking back as someone who is established in the doctrines of Sovereign Grace especially the truth of The Total Depravity of man; I can clearly see how right she was even as an unbeliever and how wrong I was though I knew the Lord!

Concerning our choice with regards to our first birth, Loraine Boettner writes – "It is almost universally admitted that God determines when, where, and under what circumstances, each individual of our race shall be born, live, and die, whether it shall be male or female, white or black, wise or foolish. God is no less sovereign in the distribution of His favors. He does what He will with His own. To some He gives riches, to others honor, to others health, to others certain talents for music, oratory, art, finance, statesmanship, etc. Others are poor, unknown, born in dishonor, the victims of disease, and live lives of wretchedness. Some are placed in Christian lands where they receive all the benefits of the Gospel; others live and die in the darkness of heathenism. Some are brought through faith unto salvation; others are left to perish in unbelief. And to a very large extent these external things, which are not the result of individual choice, decide the person's life course and eternal destiny. Both Scripture and every day experience teach us that God gives to some what He withholds from others. If it be asked why He does this, or why he does not save all, the only available answer is found in the words of the Lord Jesus, "Yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight." – [Boettner in 'The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination']

I am glad that you mentioned in your article "However, it was Billy Graham, with his prominent emphasis on "decision", who brought this semi-Pelagian, unwarranted, but highly congenial exaltation of man's will to world-wide acceptance. This delusion quickly overtook the "Fundamentalists", Independent and Southern Baptists, Wesleyans, Pentecostals, Charismatics and virtually all who professed salvation in Christ."

This same 'Rev'. Billy Graham once wrote a 170 pages book titled – 'How to be born-again". He might as well have written a book on how to be born. For in many ways the natural birth is very similar to spiritual birth!

And just as we had no say in the former, neither do we have any say in the latter! And as far as 'choice' goes, every man who comes into the world by natural GENERATION ALREADY MADE THAT CHOICE IN ADAM as far his eternal destiny is concerned! "In Adam all die!" (1Cor 15:22) To humbly accept this truth and preach it from the rooftops is to sign your 'death warrant' as far as any 'success' in the Ministry goes! This truth can only be received by truly regenerated men, the rest of the bench-warmers will trample it under their feet, and turn again and rend you if they could!

In natural birth, we know that the one who is BORN DOES NOT WILL TO BE BORN–in fact, he (as as my old girlfriend reminded me) has NO SAY IN THE MATTER WHATSOEVER! He does not decide the time, place, or circumstances of his birth. He has no power to determine the family into which he will be born etc. The analogy holds true with regard to the spiritual birth. GOD determines the time, place and circumstances. The sinner can no more resist this than can an infant resist and refuse to be born naturally.

This fact is shown so clearly in John 1:13 where speaking of believers it is said, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." i.e. "The new birth is "not of blood (by natural descent), nor of the will of the flesh (his own volition), nor of the will of man (the preacher's persuasion), but OF GOD" [John 1:13] [A.W. Pink]

This verse kills the doctrine of those who teach that men are saved when they exercise their "free wills" and accept God's "offer" of salvation.

God Sovereignly saves us in Regeneration and THEN CALLS US OR ILLUMINATES US BY THE GOSPEL. "Who hath SAVED US (regeneration), and CALLED US (by the Gospel) with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace etc". [2Tim 1:9] As I always say we must beware of putting the proverbial 'cart before the horse'! A man does not believe the Gospel and GET SAVED but believes the Gospel BECAUSE HE IS SAVED!

This is the reason the Gospel is referred to in the Scriptures as a MYSTERY! Because only to the regenerate it is the 'power of God unto salvation'. The rest can only behold it, wonder about it and perish! "BEHOLD, ye despisers, and WONDER, and PERISH: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in NO WISE BELIEVE, though A MAN DECLARE IT UNTO YOU". [Act 13:41]

Regeneration is a ONETIME sovereign act of God whereas Conversion is always PARTIAL (on this earth) and CONTINUAL, and can be seen in different parts of our lives at different times. A genuine backslider does not need to be regenerated but he needs to be converted. A backslider no matter how far he has strayed is still God's son and the Lambs bride! "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU"! [Jer 3:14] (my eyes well-up as I write this, for I was the greatest backslider of them all) Prior to Peter's backsliding, the Lord told him – "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and WHEN THOU ART CONVERTED, strengthen thy brethren"! [Lk 22:31,32]

And I may finally add that it is in conversion that we unlearn much of the error which we held on to initially after our regeneration. Errors such as 'Free will', Universal Atonement, The Pentecostal errors etc.

The path of the just is as the shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect Day! [Prov 4:18] Hallelujah!

Great article again from you my dear Brother Matthew! Keep them coming!

Your servant for His sake
Michael Jeshurun

[MeMyself]

People can decide to accept or deny Christ.

Its a decision either way and one we are all free to make.  God in His sovereignty knows who will and who will not.

[Kenneth Sublett]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15721164-600-let-me-out-its-the-fetus-that-decides-when-its-time-to-be-born-the-mother-is-just-obeying-orders-from-her-insatiable-unborn-baby-garry-hamilton-finds-out-how/

By Garry Hamilton

Eugene, Oregon

IN A Leonardo da Vinci sketch of a pregnant womb, the unborn baby is depicted
as totally calm and peaceful. The infant seems to be savouring its last few days
of serenity, a gentle prisoner patiently awaiting the cataclysmic forces that
will eventually whisk it away to freedom. And for much of the twentieth century,
physiologists trying to solve the mystery of what triggers birth have shared da
Vinci's view: the innocent fetus is at the mother's mercy. Her body alone
decides when birth is to begin.

More recently, however, a very different picture of the baby's role in the
birth process has emerged. The fetus, most researchers believe, is a virtual
autocrat, dictating when the mother's muscles should start contracting. Now, a
team of fetal physiologists led by Caroline McMillen of the University of
Adelaide in Australia has an idea about what drives this little despot to pull
off so precocious a stunt.

Far from waiting serenely for the right moment to arrive, they argue that
during the last few weeks of pregnancy the fetus becomes increasingly stressed
as it rapidly outstrips its mother's ability to supply nutrients and oxygen.
Eventually, it all gets too much. At that point, the baby's brain unleashes a
flood of hormones that wash across the placenta, triggering a cascade of events
that ends with the baby's expulsion. As McMillen sees it, birth is the fetus's
way of saying: "I've had enough, let me out."

The modern quest to understand parturition—as the process of giving
birth is known—owes its existence to studies of abnormal deliveries in
humans ...

[Kenneth Sublett]

A wife can have her egg stimulated into dividing and produce a child without the husband.  Watch out, men have already been emasculated LITERALLY by "count" by female dominated society.   Isaiah 3 defines the modern church explicitly as women and "boys" ruling over you. That's why more and more husbands show up as "empty pews."

[RB]

People can decide to accept or deny Christ.

Its a decision either way and one we are all free to make. 

That's false and your own personal opinion, an opinion that you prefer ABOVE God's testimony. It is what you want to believe, and by believing that lie you have simply refused to accept God's word for your precious feelings. So sinners are ALIVE, FREE, and WELL? and truly do not need Christ's life to be imputeth to their account since they are rich and have need of nothing! Are sinners not at enmity against God like Paul said? People like you truly do not as of yet, understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and why it was IMPERATIVE for him to be born of a virgin; why he came in the likeness of sinful flesh; and in what manner he was a figure of Adam, and the purpose of his life, death, and resurrection.....it is impossible for you to know these things properly and still say what you are saying~ IMPOSSIBLE. But, that's the age in which we now live. Your understanding would be NO different than a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ, yet if you ask them they think, they basically, would say the same thing you are saying for that seems FAIR to them, and that what they would do if they were God. So man's decision is the means of him being accepted by God, it all hinges on HIS decision. In the first Adam we ALL had that, yet in that perfect created state, Adam could not secure that FOR HIM and for US. Christ secured that for himself and ALL of the elect members of his body. I did not give scriptures since they most likely would have been rejected by you~and you have heard them many times over anyway.

[4WD]

Concerning our choice with regards to our first birth, Loraine Boettner writes – "It is almost universally admitted that God determines when, where, and under what circumstances, each individual of our race shall be born, live, and die, whether it shall be male or female, white or black, wise or foolish. God is no less sovereign in the distribution of His favors. He does what He will with His own. To some He gives riches, to others honor, to others health, to others certain talents for music, oratory, art, finance, statesmanship, etc. Others are poor, unknown, born in dishonor, the victims of disease, and live lives of wretchedness. Some are placed in Christian lands where they receive all the benefits of the Gospel; others live and die in the darkness of heathenism. Some are brought through faith unto salvation; others are left to perish in unbelief. And to a very large extent these external things, which are not the result of individual choice, decide the person's life course and eternal destiny. Both Scripture and every day experience teach us that God gives to some what He withholds from others. If it be asked why He does this, or why he does not save all, the only available answer is found in the words of the Lord Jesus, "Yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight." – [Boettner in 'The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination']

And that is absolute nonsense.  In his explanation he, Boettner, displays an absolute ignorance about God's sovereignty and about God's creation.  It is, of course, the false disastrous Calvinistic theology of theistic determinism, the theology which you, RB, have bought into hook, line and sinker.

[soterion]

People can decide to accept or deny Christ.

Its a decision either way and one we are all free to make.  God in His sovereignty knows who will and who will not.

[4WD]

People can decide to accept or deny Christ.

Its a decision either way and one we are all free to make.  God in His sovereignty knows who will and who will not.

Yes, and people means both sinners or saints; that is both sinners and saints have the freedom to accept or deny Christ.

I would note here that I don't think it is in God's sovereignty that He knows who will and who will not; rather it is in His omniscience that He knows who will and who will not.

[MeMyself]

That's false and your own personal opinion, an opinion that you prefer ABOVE God's testimony. It is what you want to believe, and by believing that lie you have simply refused to accept God's word for your precious feelings. So sinners are ALIVE, FREE, and WELL? and truly do not need Christ's life to be imputeth to their account since they are rich and have need of nothing! Are sinners not at enmity against God like Paul said? People like you truly do not as of yet, understand the gospel of Jesus Christ and why it was IMPERATIVE for him to be born of a virgin; why he came in the likeness of sinful flesh; and in what manner he was a figure of Adam, and the purpose of his life, death, and resurrection.....it is impossible for you to know these things properly and still say what you are saying~ IMPOSSIBLE. But, that's the age in which we now live. Your understanding would be NO different than a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ, yet if you ask them they think, they basically, would say the same thing you are saying for that seems FAIR to them, and that what they would do if they were God. So man's decision is the means of him being accepted by God, it all hinges on HIS decision. In the first Adam we ALL had that, yet in that perfect created state, Adam could not secure that FOR HIM and for US. Christ secured that for himself and ALL of the elect members of his body. I did not give scriptures since they most likely would have been rejected by you~and you have heard them many times over anyway.

Nope. Not about anyone's precious  feelings, but it sure does read as though yours are mightily hurt; defensive, insulting, and telling me what is wrong with me...typical reaction of someone who is too invested in their own understanding and feels threatened by another viewpoint.

I do wish you could converse without putting those that disagree with your understanding of scripture down...

I believe the Word of God speaks of both God's sovereignty and His gift of free will.  I find scriptural backing for both.

[MeMyself]

Yes, and people means both sinners or saints; that is both sinners and saints have the freedom to accept or deny Christ.

I would note here that I don't think it is in God's sovereignty that He knows who will and who will not; rather it is in His omniscience that He knows who will and who will not.

Interesting...do you believe that God is sovereign at all?  I see room for both, but I admit, my brain can't fully grasp *how* that works...but I do trust His word and see both His sovereignty and man's free will at play all throughout the scriptures.

[4WD]

Interesting...do you believe that God is sovereign at all?  I see room for both, but I admit, my brain can't fully grasp *how* that works...but I do trust His word and see both His sovereignty and man's free will at play all throughout the scriptures.

Yes, God is absolutely sovereign.  But it is in His omniscience [by definition] that He knows everything from beginning to end.  And I would add here that God's being sovereign does not mean that He determines everything that happens.  He has created this physical universe and in doing so He has established certain "rules and regulation", that is, the natural laws for its operation.  Only rarely does He interfere in that operation.

[soterion]

Interesting...do you believe that God is sovereign at all?  I see room for both, but I admit, my brain can't fully grasp *how* that works...but I do trust His word and see both His sovereignty and man's free will at play all throughout the scriptures.

God, in His sovereignty, lays out the consequences of sin and provides how to save man from them, but He does not choose specifically who is saved apart from their choice, nor does He choose specifically who to condemn apart from their choice.

What that means to me is that I had no choice regarding the consequences of my sinfulness. I couldn't choose to not have condemnation as my destiny. God also provided a way for me to be saved in Christ. I could not choose for myself another way out of my sin problem; God provided Christ in His sovereignty.

What God could not choose for me is my response to His gift of Christ and salvation from my sins. He laid it all out and I had to choose.

[RB]

God in His sovereignty knows who will and who will not.

MeMself, you are confusing God's sovereignty with his his omniscience~His soverenity without question determines whether or not we are beneficiary his grace through the redeemtion work of his Son.

Romans 9:15-24~"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Okay, 4WD water these words down as you always do, but remember this....it is God's word you are playing with, not man's!

[MeMyself]

Yes, God is absolutely sovereign.  But it is in His omniscience [by definition] that He knows everything from beginning to end.  And I would add here that God's being sovereign does not mean that He determines everything that happens.  He has created this physical universe and in doing so He has established certain "rules and regulation", that is, the natural laws for its operation.  Only rarely does He interfere in that operation.

Thanks for sharing with me...I love to hear and ponder the convictions of others and where the Word has directed their understanding...

[MeMyself]

God, in His sovereignty, lays out the consequences of sin and provides how to save man from them, but He does not choose specifically who is saved apart from their choice, nor does He choose specifically who to condemn apart from their choice.

What that means to me is that I had no choice regarding the consequences of my sinfulness. I couldn't choose to not have condemnation as my destiny. God also provided a way for me to be saved in Christ. I could not choose for myself another way out of my sin problem; God provided Christ in His sovereignty.

What God could not choose for me is my response to His gift of Christ and salvation from my sins. He laid it all out and I had to choose.

I love this! Thanks for sharing...this understanding is very close to mine...as of today. haha!  God is so good to let us grow in grace and mature in our understandings...but I still know I will not have a full grasp on everything, because I can only see through a mirror darkly.
having said that,  I believe that God *can* do whatever He wants, so He *could* hand pick and be choosy; I believe instead (not based on my precious feelings, but what I see play out in scripture) that God WILL NOT choose for people their response to Christ.

[AVZ]

Only rarely does He interfere in that operation.

That is pure speculation.
You do not know when, where, if or how God "interferes" with the operation of this universe.
There is an awful lot of energy in this universe for which we have no explanation.
It is very well possible God continuously and consciously provides the life stream by which this universe continues to exist.
God may well be interfering with this universe constantly. He may as well uphold the laws of nature, second after second, hour after hour, day after day, year after year...until the day He destroys it all.

[Kenneth Sublett]

God knew that Hitler was needed to slaughter 6 million jews, religious sects, homosexual, mentally defect.
Hitler said that GOD SENT him to finish the slaughter started by Jesus.
God predestined the Jews to seek a home in German.
Praise the Lord, say Calvinists who never read Calvin.

[TonkaTim]

God knew that Hitler was needed to slaughter 6 million jews, religious sects, homosexual, mentally defect.
Hitler said that GOD SENT him to finish the slaughter started by Jesus.
God predestined the Jews to seek a home in German.
Praise the Lord, say Calvinists who never read Calvin.

Not only a strawman, but arrogant.
That said, I'll take the bait.


What if He did? Who are we to complain?


In Revelation 17 we find a similar example;

"12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb...


In verse 17 we find who is responsible "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

[Kenneth Sublett]

THE ENEMIES OF THE LAMB MAKE UP THEIR OWN MIND.

Rev. 17:13 These have ONE MIND
        and SHALL GIVE their power and strength unto the beast. [Their will]
Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb,
        and the Lamb shall overcome them:
        for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings:
        and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

MANY are called or invited but FEW are Chosen and Faithful.

1Pet. 2:9 But ye are a chosen GENERATION, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
        [WHY?]] that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath
        CALLED YOU OUT of darkness into his marvellous light:
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren,
        Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith,
        and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised TO THEM THAT LOVE HIM?

Rev. 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth,
        are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Never individuals
Rev. 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore,
        and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
Rev. 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to FULFILL HIS WILL and to agree,
        and give their KINGDOM unto the beast,
        UNTIL the WORDS of God shall be fulfilled.
Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great CITY,
       which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The ELECT are never INDIVIDUALS and God has the RIGHT TO SHOW MERCY whatever the Calvinists and Jews say.
God never SHOWS HATE to embryos to burn in hell.

Those who have chosen to fight against the Lamb are sent STRONG DELUSIONS so that they believe their own lies. These people arE OF THE WORLD, Kosmos or the ECUMENICAL as the Kingdom of Satan.  The Kingdom of Satan destroys the Babylon Mother of Harlots as the FIRST mother goddess worshipped especially by the Jewish women without hinderance from Jewish men. That is why Jerusalem is called SODOM and the Mother of Harlots still creeping into most religionism beyond BEING A SCHOOL OF CHRIST COMMANDED TO TEACH WHAT HE ORDAINED FROM THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES.  You can identify them by their manners and their FIRST WORDS.

The Beast or THERION is A New Style of Music or Satyric Drama.

[Kenneth Sublett]

Are you related to Lake Tonka or Tonka Toys? I was quoting Loraine Boettner which you can find above..  I DO have his book of isolated tidbits.

[RB]

Brother Tim, pay no attention to Kenneth Sublett he's here only to disrupt threads, and most that he post has zero to do with the thread~ but more than that he denies that Jesus Christ is God. He does not deserve our time, it's worst than casting pearls before a swine.

[4WD]

Brother Tim, pay no attention to Kenneth Sublett he's here only to disrupt threads, and most that he post has zero to do with the thread~ but more than that he denies that Jesus Christ is God. He does not deserve our time, it's worst than casting pearls before a swine.

I would agree with you on most of what Sublett posts.  However, in his reply #16 he did present the only logical conclusion that one can come to with the determinism approach too often given to the sovereignty of God; specifically, Boettner's view.   

[RB]

God, in His sovereignty, lays out the consequences of sin and provides how to save man from them, but He does not choose specifically who is saved apart from their choice, nor does He choose specifically who to condemn apart from their choice.

I love this! Thanks for sharing...this understanding is very close to mine

Let us consider soterion statement in light of God's testimony, shall we? I'm convinced that MeMyself loves his statement because it supports her confession more than God's testimony. It amazes me how people give their beliefs without any scriptures support, which only proves that it is more their personal opinion than God's testimony on the subject. Truly, our doctrine means very little if God gives no support to it.

Coming back and test these confessions with the scriptures and see which ones will stand the test of God's testimony.

[MeMyself]

Let us consider soterion statement in light of God's testimony, shall we? I'm convinced that MeMyself loves his statement because it supports her confession more than God's testimony.

You sure are wrong. I think its terrible that you are willing to go with assumptions and not check first with people before you take it upon yourself to speak for them.

It amazes me how people give their beliefs without any scriptures support, which only proves that it is more their personal opinion than God's testimony on the subject.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that what you did as well...and then said it was because I would have rejected them...so its righteous and holy when you omit scripture but its nefarious when others do? Ugh 

Truly, our doctrine means very little if God gives no support to it.

Coming back and test these confessions with the scriptures and see which ones will stand the test of God's testimony.

Here is something I found that better speaks for me about what I believe and why and it uses scripture to back it.
https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-q-and-a/faith/gods-sovereignty-and-human-free-will

[soterion]

It amazes me how people give their beliefs without any scriptures support, which only proves that it is more their personal opinion than God's testimony on the subject. Truly, our doctrine means very little if God gives no support to it.

Coming back and test these confessions with the scriptures and see which ones will stand the test of God's testimony.

Would you like for me to quote about half the Bible?

Any and every time God gives a command, law, etc., including obeying the gospel, there is always the option to obey or not. It is all through the Bible. Otherwise, it makes no sense to command it.

A person does not always have to proof text everything they say about God and their beliefs here. There is no call for the nonsensical claim in the quote above. If you want some biblical verification, just ask for it, don't pejoratively accuse. Pejorative -  a word I learned from TonkaTim. Thanks TonkaTim. 

[AVZ]

God, in His sovereignty, lays out the consequences of sin and provides how to save man from them, but He does not choose specifically who is saved apart from their choice, nor does He choose specifically who to condemn apart from their choice.

What that means to me is that I had no choice regarding the consequences of my sinfulness. I couldn't choose to not have condemnation as my destiny. God also provided a way for me to be saved in Christ. I could not choose for myself another way out of my sin problem; God provided Christ in His sovereignty.

What God could not choose for me is my response to His gift of Christ and salvation from my sins. He laid it all out and I had to choose.

Problem is of course that scripture mentions in various locations that man in an unregenerate stage cannot make the right choice.
That sovereignty you refer to in the opening line of your response allows God to condemn none or all, but it also allows Him to condemn some by standards or reasons He so desires because in principal each and everyone of us rightfully and justly deserves to be condemned.

[4WD]

Problem is of course that scripture mentions in various locations that man in an unregenerate stage cannot make the right choice.
That sovereignty you refer to in the opening line of your response allows God to condemn none or all, but it also allows Him to condemn some by standards or reasons He so desires because in principal each and everyone of us rightfully and justly deserves to be condemned.

The man in an unregenerate stage is never prevented from making the right choice due to God's sovereignty or by any action or inaction by God.  Such thinking is a perverse view of God's sovereignty.  Those holding such a view invariably reject God's character trait, His attribute, of righteousness, or erroneously change the meaning of "God'srighteousness to suit that view.

God's sovereignty does not allow God to condemn none or all.  God's righteousness does not allow for that. Similarly His holiness also can be said to preclude that.

[soterion]

Problem is of course that scripture mentions in various locations that man in an unregenerate stage cannot make the right choice.
That sovereignty you refer to in the opening line of your response allows God to condemn none or all, but it also allows Him to condemn some by standards or reasons He so desires because in principal each and everyone of us rightfully and justly deserves to be condemned.

Well, so much of the Bible says otherwise. If you hold to the doctrine sometimes referred to as Unconditional Election, then you would have God send out the gospel message, and then He decides (or He decided previously) to whom He will give the ability to respond with acceptance...to the rejection of those He has not chosen.

Any such view as that has no support in scripture. The purpose of evangelism is to reach as many lost as will freely accept the salvation offered in Christ. Inasmuch as God wants all saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), He will not unconditionally reject anybody. The condition for His rejecting anybody is their freewill rejection of Him and what He offers.

[4WD]

Well, so much of the Bible says otherwise. If you hold to the doctrine sometimes referred to as Unconditional Election, then you would have God send out the gospel message, and then He decides (or He decided previously) to whom He will give the ability to respond with acceptance...to the rejection of those He has not chosen.

Any such view as that has no support in scripture. The purpose of evangelism is to reach as many lost as will freely accept the salvation offered in Christ. Inasmuch as God wants all saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), He will not unconditionally reject anybody. The condition for His rejecting anybody is their freewill rejection of Him and what He offers.

[RB]

size=10pt]Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that what you did as well...and then said it was because I would have rejected them...so its righteous and holy when you omit scripture but its nefarious when others do?[/size]

I always support my teachings with God's testimony as much as others on this forum. I stated why I did not to you. If you would respond back to them, then I will post them for you.

I'm very busy today with many meetings, so maybe later. I check this out as your requested and truly, it was pitiful to be kind.

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-q-and-a/faith/gods-sovereignty-and-human-free-will

[MeMyself]

I always support my teachings with God's testimony as much as others on this forum. I stated why I did not to you. If you would respond back to them, then I will post them for you.

I'm very busy today with many meetings, so maybe later. I check this out as your requested and truly, it was pitiful to be kind.

I don't care if you find what I believe and why to be pitiful, because the truth is, Red, you are just another human being doing his best to sort out things that our minds can't fully comprehend, but are afraid to admit to for some reason.

Romans 14 applies here, because God *has* seen fit to allow scriptural backing for the either OR belief of His sovereignty vs. Free will. (and there are even some of us that can see that it doesn't have to be one OR the other, but both somehow, beautifully and mysteriously working together for His glory) ...At any rate, in the interest of that (applying Romans 14), I will refrain from telling you what I find to be pitiful about your view and wish you a happy day---though, meetings all day might make that almost impossible.  Meetings, IMO are. the. worst! God go before you and God bless.

[AVZ]

Well, so much of the Bible says otherwise. If you hold to the doctrine sometimes referred to as Unconditional Election, then you would have God send out the gospel message, and then He decides (or He decided previously) to whom He will give the ability to respond with acceptance...to the rejection of those He has not chosen.

Any such view as that has no support in scripture. The purpose of evangelism is to reach as many lost as will freely accept the salvation offered in Christ. Inasmuch as God wants all saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), He will not unconditionally reject anybody. The condition for His rejecting anybody is their freewill rejection of Him and what He offers.

Actually this does not refer to Unconditional Election, but Total Depravity.
The question is: Can unregenerate man choose God?

Romans 8:7-8
"The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

Romans 8:9
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

There are two states in which a man can be: In the flesh or in the Spirit.
According to Romans 8:7-8 those who are in the flesh are unable to submit to God, hence they cannot by their own choice become in the Spirit.
The other point is that those in the flesh cannot please God.

So you have a real dichotomy here; those who are in the flesh can never become in the Spirit because they are unable to choose to be in the Spirit.
Only those who are in the Spirit can please God, so in order to choose to be in the Spirit you must be in the Spirit first.

And since something must be at the start of regeneration, who sets this in motion?
Is it man who by his choice accepts to submit to a process of which Romans 8:7 claims he is unable to submit to?
Or is it God who by regeneration enables man to make a choice which he by nature is unable to make?

[Kenneth Sublett]

> For God is my witness,
        whom I serve with MY SPIRIT in the gospel of his Son,
        that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Rom 1:9

The Law of Moses had no effect on the human SPIRIT or the human CONSCIENCE: the conscience is also the consciousness which is not part of our flesh and bones.   The SPIRIT of true meaning was in The Book of the Covenant of Grace.  The LAW of Moses controlled only the dark nature of people.

> But now we are delivered from THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should
        serve in newness of SPIRIT     [Gospel, Faith]
        and not (serve) in the oldness of THE LETTER [Law]. Rom 7:6
> O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the BODY [His] of this death? Romans 7:24
> I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
         So then 
         with the MIND I myself serve the LAW of God; 
         but with the flesh the LAW OF SIN Romans 7:25
> THERE is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus, [Not inside of]
        who WALK not after the flesh,         [OUR FLESH]
        but (walk) after the SPIRIT Romans 8:1     [OUR SPIRIT OR MIND. Spirit IS mind the opposite to THE FLESH]

    For the law of the SPIRIT  OF life IN Christ Jesus
             [Please try to understand PREPOSITIONS]
              hath made ME free from the law of sin and death.  Romans 8:2
    For what THE LAW could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,
    God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,
            condemned sin IN the flesh: Romans 8:3

        THAT the righteousness OFTHE LAW might be fulfilled in us,
                who WALK not after the flesh (external body),
                but [walk] after the SPIRIT (OUR MIND) Romans 8:4

> And be not conformed to THIS WORLD [Kosmos, Ecumenical, the kingdom of the Devil]
        but ye transformed by the RENEWING of YOUR MIND
        that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect WILL OF GOD. Romans 12:2

> Therefore if any man be IN Christ, [NOT INSIDE OF]
    he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Co.5:17
> And be renewed in the SPIRIT of YOUR MIND Ep.4:23
        And that ye put on the NEW MAN, which after God
        is created in righteousness and true holiness. Ep.4:24

The spirit OF your mind proves that SPIRIT means the mind or MENTAL DISPOSITION of that person.

SPIRIT is what comes out of God's MOUTH as the carrier of HIS MIND

2Th. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
          whom the Lord shall consume with the SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH
          and shall destroy with the BRIGHTNESS of his coming:

Spirit is in the same category as Brightness: God IS light but His glory is made VISIBLE AND AUDIBLE in the face of Jesus of Nazareth THE SON.

[RB]

I don't care if you find what I believe and why to be pitiful

I was mainly speaking of the link you posted that you said:

Here is something I found that better speaks for me about what I believe and why and it uses scripture to back it.

They actually used no scriptures, you should let the scriptures speak for you, not another person. But that being said it is pitiful and only shows the lack of understanding that most have in our day, which is a fulfillment of Paul's warning to us:

2nd Timothy 4:2-4~"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

We are NOW living in these days prophesied by Paul through the Spirit. People are believing in fables~for sound preaching as preached by Paul, the Reformers, a few here and there in church history were and are hated and rejected by churchgoers. The Megachurches are built upon what you believe in.

the truth is, Red, you are just another human being doing his best to sort out things that our minds can't fully comprehend,.

I'm a believer trusting in God's word laboring to speak according to the oracles of God, and NOT what is popular with the twenty-first-century church goer!

but are afraid to admit to for some reason

Oh, you know that? You could not be further from the truth. I fear nothing, but have given my life in studying and seeking God's truth, and refusing my own likes and dislikes and pleasing my own flesh, and certainly not laboring to please man, for then I would cease to be a faithful servant of God. Fear is something that does not dwell in me, except fearing that I may displease my Lord Jesus whom I serve in my spirit.

sort out things that our minds can't fully comprehend

You are so wrong~God's elect can come unto the knowledge of the truth~religious people CAN NOT. We just read those scriptures.

2nd Timothy 3:1-7~"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

You should not get upset and hate those that can learn and who can come unto the knowledge of the truth. Those who cannot make excuses and try to convince others that certain truths are mysteries and we are unable to know them, but that's a lie and a cop out and are only covering their own ignorance.

Romans 14 applies here, because God *has* seen fit to allow scriptural backing for the either OR belief of His sovereignty vs. Free will.

You are dead wrong, this is NOT a "liberty issue"! Besides, Free will and God's sovereignty are not even connected and two totally different doctrine UNRELATED. Free will and human depravity would be related and discussed together~God's sovereignty and election of Grace and reprobation are related and should be discussed together, etc.

and there are even some of us that can see that it doesn't have to be one OR the other, but both somehow, beautifully and mysteriously working together for His glory

Well, there has always been the truth and those that oppose the truth. From Paul and the Jews in Galatians 2:5:4 to our day~two main groups, one who embraces a gospel of works to those who hold fast to the doctrine of the grace of God. ALL can be divided into one of these two groups, EVERYONE CAN who professes to worship God.

[MeMyself]

I was mainly speaking of the link you posted that you said: They actually used no scriptures, you should let the scriptures speak for you, not another person. But that being said it is pitiful and only shows the lack of understanding that most have in our day, which is a fulfillment of Paul's warning to us: We are NOW living in these days prophesied by Paul through the Spirit. People are believing in fables~for sound preaching as preached by Paul, the Reformers, a few here and there in church history were and are hated and rejected by churchgoers. The Megachurches are built upon what you believe in. I'm a believer trusting in God's word laboring to speak according to the oracles of God, and NOT what is popular with the twenty-first-century church goer! Oh, you know that? You could not be further from the truth. I fear nothing, but have given my life in studying and seeking God's truth, and refusing my own likes and dislikes and pleasing my own flesh, and certainly not laboring to please man, for then I would cease to be a faithful servant of God. Fear is something that does not dwell in me, except fearing that I may displease my Lord Jesus whom I serve in my spirit.  You are so wrong~God's elect can come unto the knowledge of the truth~religious people CAN NOT. We just read those scriptures. You should not get upset and hate those that can learn and who can come unto the knowledge of the truth. Those who cannot make excuses and try to convince others that certain truths are mysteries and we are unable to know them, but that's a lie and a cop out and are only covering their own ignorance. You are dead wrong, this is NOT a "liberty issue"! Besides, Free will and God's sovereignty are not even connected and two totally different doctrine UNRELATED. Free will and human depravity would be related and discussed together~God's sovereignty and election of Grace and reprobation are related and should be discussed together, etc. Well, there has always been the truth and those that oppose the truth. From Paul and the Jews in Galatians 2:5:4 to our day~two main groups, one who embraces a gospel of works to those who hold fast to the doctrine of the grace of God. ALL can be divided into one of these two groups, EVERYONE CAN who professes to worship God.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.


I guess I'm the only one that falls into that camp... and the one found in Romans 14 as well, because regardless if you think it is a disputable matter or not, it clearly is...as the "factions" have gone round and round about it.

What is an example of something that is NOT a disputable matter is that Christ alone is the way to the Father, as He Himself has said.

Like I said earlier, Red. God bless.