What peace treaty?

[LaSpino3]

Can anyone explain to me using the scriptures where this teaching of an end-time peace treaty comes form, and how anti-Christ is involved with it. Personally I think it's a false teaching, but am willing to discuss it with someone who knows their stuff.

Laspino3

[LaSpino3]

Hello, anybody home?

Laspino

[grandcentralstation]

Can anyone explain to me using the scriptures where this teaching of an end-time peace treaty comes form, and how anti-Christ is involved with it. Personally I think it's a false teaching, but am willing to discuss it with someone who knows their stuff.

Laspino3

Laspino3, the peace treaty speculation comes from Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy in chapter 9. It is verse 27: Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.; I believe this is supposed to coincide with the man of sin/lawlessness sitting in the temple of God...etc. I come at this from a preterist point of view so i believe this was fulfilled during the 1st century but i was once a dispensationalist.

[LaSpino3]

Grandcentralstation: Thanks for your concise, clear and honest reply, a response I agree with 100%. I also have many disagreements with the teaching mentioned, it doesn't hold water. It reminds me of a rain barrel that had once been full of water, but now shot through with 00 buckshot.

Before I begin, I have to tell you that I'm not sure how much time I will have to respond to any answer you or others will have. Going out of town today, won't be home until Monday night. Beginning Tuesday, I  have to prepare for an eye operation, not sure how that's going to go, will have to leave it in the hands of the Lord, anyway here are my comments. First the verse in question:

Daniel 9:27, "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (meaning 7 years) and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifices and the oblation to cease."

What is a covenant according to Scripture? There are 4 that I find.

In theology we have,

1. There's a  covenant of works: It's that which is implied in the commands, prohibitions, and promises of God; the promise of God to man that man's perfect obedience should entitle him to happiness. In other words God's command to man, "This do and live, that do and die"

2. There's the covenant of redemption: It's the mutual agreement between the Father and Son, respecting the redemption of sinners by Christ.

3. There's the covenant of grace: It's that by which God engages in bestowing salvation on men, upon the condition that man shall believe in Christ, and yield obedience to the terms of the gospel.

4. Lastly, there's the covenant concerning church affairs: It's a solemn agreement between the members of a church, that they will walk in love, and together according to the precepts of the gospel. There may be more, but these are the key covenants God has made with man. Here we can see that a covenant is not a peace treaty, I have no idea where that teaching started. 

Second question, what does it mean to confirm something according to the language of the Bible. This particular section of Daniel was written after Darius dies 539 B.C., in the 1st year of king Belshazzar of Babylon.   

Now, to confirm a covenant is to make firm, to add strength to it; to strengthen it, to make it certain; to give new assurance of truth or certainty and to put it beyond doubt. So, the covenant Daniel speaking of has to have already been established in order to confirm and strengthen it. So, it appears that it will not be something new like a new peace treaty between the antichrist and Israel, but a covenant made by God concerning man's salvation. Of the 4 above, I believe it to be #3.   

So, if it's not the above peace treaty, what covenant can it possibly be? Let's compare several verses in scripture, one in Jeremiah the other in Hebrews.

Jeremiah 31:31-32-33, "Behold, the days come saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I (Jehovah) made with their fathers (Moses) in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; --- But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house (12 tribes)  of Israel; After those days, -- I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God (Jesus), and they (the Jews) shall be my people."

Jesus in the final 3 1/2 years of his earthly ministry, Jesus brought to the people a new covenant of grace; but was cut off by the people he came to save. 

Now compare the above in Jeremiah with, Hebrews 8:10, "For this is the covenant that I (Jesus) will make with the house (12 tribes) of Israel, after those days, saith the LORD; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people." This is repeated in Hebrews 10:16.
Your thoughts: 

Laspino3

[grandcentralstation]

I agree 100%. I believe it is God that confirmed the covenant with Israel that ultimately did away with the animal sacrifices & offerings. I just don't believe it is the "1000 years" when this goes into effect. I believe it went into effect at the resurrection. God gave Israel approx 40 years and except for the remnant they rejected it. Regarding the remnant of Christian Jews, God did put His laws in their minds and wrote it in their hearts in the 1st century and this new covenant is offered to Jewish people in this day and time as well.

[LaSpino3]

grandcentralstation: Again thanks for your response. I believe you misunderstood me concerning the last 7 years. I myself don't believe it begins when the 1000 year reign begins. Give me an hour to work out some details for you, interesting stuff!

Laspino3

[LaSpino3]

grandcentralstation:

What I believe confuses many people concerning end time prophesy, are verses in Daniel and those in Revelation being mistakenly brought together as one.

What must be kept separate is Daniel 9:24, the seventy weeks or 490 years. This was broken down into three parts, 49 years, 434 years and 7 years = 490 years. This began with Artaxerxes decree in the year 457 B.C.

457 A.D. minus first 7 weeks or 49 years brings us to 408 B.C. when the last prophet Malachi may have died, and the last of the O.T. prophesies ended.

The second part 62 meaning 434 years began in 408 B.C. and ended in October of 26 A.D. at Jesus baptism, and his confrontation with the devil. This left 7 years to confirm the covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27.

The first 3 ½ years was confirmed between October of 26 A.D. and April of 30 A.D. at the cross when Jesus was cut off. This leaves 3 ½ year. This will be accomplished by the two witnesses/martyrs of Revelation 11, who shall confirm Jesus gospel of grace for the final 3 ½ years, then as Jesus was, they shall be caught up(raptured) into heaven.

Now the first half of the 7 years of tribulation overlays the first 3 ½ years of the two witnesses. This 3 ½ years can be considered tribulation against the Jews and the nations because of the power that has been given the two witnesses by the Holy Spirit, see Revelation 11:5-6. These two are going to put a hurt on the world. Their death ends the 1st half of the tribulation 3 ½ years. When they are raptured up the 2ed half of the tribulation begins, Revelation 11:14, the third woe. This called, the "Great Tribulation," 3 ½ years of "great tribulation" for the Jews and the world of gentiles.

Let me summarize, 483 years ends in 26 A.D.

The 1st half of the last seven years begins in 26 A.D. and ends on April 5th of 30 A.D. the cross.

The last 3 ½ years begins when the two witnesses are sealed and finish the confirming of the covenant. This fulfills the 490 years.

The tribulations first 3 ½ years overlays the 3 ½ years the witnesses are sealed and are murdered. Their death ushers in the last 3 ½ years of the great tribulation, 1260 days.

From the time the witnesses sealed to their death conclude the conformation of the covenants = 7 years.

Overlay: the first 3 ½ years of tribulation are the same 3 ½ years witnesses confirm covenant. Their death rings in the last 3 ½ years, this completing the 7 years of tribulation.
So, from Jesus baptism to his death, 3 ½ years. Witnesses sealed, die 3 ½ years later; this ring's in last 3 ½ years, completing as prophesied 10 days (years) the church will suffer tribulation, Revelation 2:10.

Sorry I wrote this out quickly, didn't have much time. If you dont't understand, ask me.
Laspino3

[notreligus]

The traditional teaching that I received on this for 40 years, especially from Partial Dispensationals (those who hold to Scofield's and similar teaching) was Israel would sign a treaty with an antichrist (or possible a forerunner to antichrist).   Prophecy teachers have long speculated as to where antichrist would originate.  My first dispensational teacher taught that he would come from Syria.   I generally concluded that he must be a Jew or the Jews would not accept him.   That was long before I gave much thought to how the Jews viewed Jesus during the first century.   I did not know about the Pseudopigraphal writings which were written during about 250 B.C. to 250 A.D.   Certain writers who spoke of Messiah as a political leader did not demand that he be other than a man and his divinity was not considered. He would be merely a man.    When we read the Scriptures about those things which we consider to be part of the Tribulation Period we may not be thinking in those terms and have the wrong idea about an antichrist.

We're generally in the post-Pope era of the antichrist, or what is believed about antichrist.   Jimmy Carter was once called the antichrist because some thought he was leading Israel into a bad peace treaty.   Some thought Obama might be since he was sympathetic to Muslims.    But how about this scenario, which I never envisioned to see in my lifetime:   Trump and Putin have vowed to support one another.   Yesterday Trump said that Putin supported Israel.   Trump and Netanyahu are chummy.   I can see the three of them becoming a trinity of leadership, one that has no good things in mind for Israel.   A close friend of mine is a Jew and a few days ago he told me that lately he is not real impressed with Israel and the things that Netanyahu is doing nor the friends he is making.   

Believe me, I considered this before posting and I expect to be called a kook for proposing this. I too think this sounds kooky, but a few years back I decided all of Dispensationalism was kooky after being taught by a Hyper-Dispensationalist who claimed that the Church will be raptured and will remain separate from Israel for eternity.    He said that the Church will be on a planet called the New Jerusalem. 

[notreligus]

I generally explained the first 3 1/2 years as the time of Satan's wrath and the last 3 1/2 years as the time of God's unleashed wrath. If you get too complicated it's hard for most folk to follow.  The Mid-Tribulation as that middle time when the source of the wrath changes.  I'm not going to write a book here and explain the pre-Wrath view but Pre-Wrathers don't believe that the rapture is Mid-Trib nor do they believe that God's own unleashed wrath has to begin right at Mid-Trib but that things will "heat up," so to speak, over time until God's own people are taken out as His unleashed wrath is not for them but for those who have denied His Son.   

[LaSpino3]

Consider the following possibility, Notreligus, wrote, "I generally explained the first 3 1/2 years as the time of Satan's wrath..."

My thinking is, it's not Satan's wrath, but the LORD's wrath. The following concerns the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation.

Let's begin with this scenario: the church is raptured away with the Lord, the 144,000 are marked, and God's two witnesses (Revelation 11) are established just outside Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:3-8, "I (the LORD) will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (3 ½ years) clothed in sackcloth ---."

Now what is it these two will do to the people of the earth?  "And if any man will hurt them, fire (will) proceed out of their mouth, and devour their enemies:" This does not mean one or two people, but armies that may be sent to destroy them.

"and if any man will hurt them he must in this manner be killed. The (two) have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:" Now consider this, they can destroy anyone who comes against them with fire; there will be no rain on the earth for 3 1/2 years, meaning no fresh water will fill the streams, rivers, and fresh water lakes.

"and (the two witnesses) have power over waters to turn them to blood," Again use your imagination, what fresh water does remain, will be turned to blood. The two will "smite the earth with plagues---." This word plague include deseases, plagues of locust, pestilence; plagues such as the Bubonic plague, H.I.V., ebola, etc.

The Greek word for "power" here is interesting, it's to have power over persons and things, to have dominion, authority, rule over people and nations. As a past particle it expresses a completed action because God has declared it to be so. How the word is used in other verses, Mark 6:7, "Gave them (the 12) power," as in power over unclean spirits." Luke 22:53, "Power of darkness." "Power over the nations." Rev.11:6, 14:18, 20:6, "

Compare Revelation 11:6, "Power to shut heaven" --- cause it not to rain; power over water, etc., with Matt.10:1, "And when he (Jesus) had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, ---."

These events will continue for 3 1/2 years. This is why the people of the earth will rejoice when they are killed. And here's where I believe it happens. Revelation 13:7, It was given unto him (1st beast) to make war with the saints (two witnesses), and to overcome them (after 3 1/2 years): and (then) power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues and nations." 

Conclusion; it's not the devil or the antichrist that bring in the first half of the tribulation, it's the Lord sending his two witnesses in order to finish confirming the final 3 1/2 years of his covenant, leaving 3 1/2 years for the "great tribulation." It's only now Satan and the antichrist will have domininon and power over the nations, and the Jews. Like in Job, God has set in motion all the powers of darkness. But, Job's life was spared:

Matthew 24:22, It is written, Jesus said, "Except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:---."   

Laspino3

[dpr]

Jesus made no covenant for 7 years. He made an eternal covenant.

The Dan.9:27 prophecy involving Jesus ends with His crucifixion and is the 69th week. The final 70th week is still left unfulfilled today. The Dan.9:27 verse is about that final 70th week, not the previous sevens.

The Dan.11 Scripture about the "league" made is often left out by those who try to say all 70 weeks were completed back in history.

The Dan.11 Scripture continues the subject of Dan.9:27 about the one who comes to make a "league" in Jerusalem, with the "holy covenant" established, and then later his being against that "holy covenant", ending the daily sacrifices and placing the abomination that makes desolate.

Antiochus IV best fit the Dan.11 abomination of desolation prophecy, yet our Lord Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" about 200 years after Antiochus IV had been dead. That moved the Dan.11 "abomination of desolation" prophecy to the future.

Dan.11 reveals the re-establishing of the temple and old covenant sacrifices in Jerusalem. Then the 'vile person' will end the sacrifices and have an abomination idol setup instead.

[LaSpino3]

dpr, where do you get this stuff from?  You wrote, "Jesus made no covenant for 7 years. He made an eternal covenant."

Jeremiah wrote between 627 and 586 B.C. Jeremiah 31:31, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (all 12 tribes):

Daniel wrote Daniel 9:27 in the first year of Darius, the year, 530 B.C. Thus Daniel now adds to Jeremiah's prophesy, "He (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years.) What do you think the Lord was doing in the 3 1/2 years between his baptism in Oct of 26 .D. and 4/5/30 A.D. He was confirming his new covenant with the Jews, but was cut off at the cross. The last 3 1/2 years to be confirmed by Jesus two witnesses, see Revelation 11. "They shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (3 1/2 Years.) What do you think they were sent there for? It will be to finish confirming the Lord's covenant with Israel.

The people of the prince is not General Titus, the last person in verse 26 spoken of is the Messiah. Jesus is, Revelation 1:5, Jesus is, "The prince of the kings of the earth" note lower case "p". Jesus rules over all, He rules the kings, the people and puts limitations on the devil himself. See Job for type, anti-type. See Job 1:6-11, and Job 2:6.

Jesus had pronounced his jugdment on the Jews days before the cross,

Matthew 23:38, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."With Matthew 24:2, "Jesus said looking down on the Temple Mt. and said, "See you not all these things? verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Forty years later, both prophesies were fulfilled. 

You wrote, "Antiochus IV best fit the Dan.11 abomination of desolation prophecy, yet our Lord Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" about 200 years after Antiochus IV had been dead. That moved the Dan.11 "abomination of desolation" prophecy to the future." 

Phil replies, Antiochus did what he did in a temple that was already dead to God. the Holy of Holies was an empty room having no sacred vessels, no mercy seat, no ark of the covenant, nothing. The priests of the temple were appointed by men not God. So what did Antiochus desicrate? nothing but the floor. It's not the Temple that's sacred to God, it's the ground David purchased for the Lord on Mt. Moriah, it's the ground that's called the "Holy place" nothing else.

What stands today on Mt Morriah is the Dome of the Rock, a pagan temple, having idol worshippers who have taken Jesus glory and given it over to a false god called Allah. That's what's "standing" on God's Holy mountain, that's the abomination od desolation Daniel is speaking of.

Islam is a creation of the Holy Roman empire (Catholic church) who itself was a creation of secular Rome. So the 4th beast is still alive and kicking today!

Phil

[dpr]

dpr, where do you get this stuff from?  You wrote, "Jesus made no covenant for 7 years. He made an eternal covenant."

It comes from directly reading the Scriptures as written, and then comparing also with other Scripture, like our Lord Jesus' Revelation, and the prophets concerning events prophesied to occur for the end of this world.

Jeremiah wrote between 627 and 586 B.C. Jeremiah 31:31, "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (all 12 tribes):

Daniel wrote Daniel 9:27 in the first year of Darius, the year, 530 B.C. Thus Daniel now adds to Jeremiah's prophesy, "He (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years.) What do you think the Lord was doing in the 3 1/2 years between his baptism in Oct of 26 .D. and 4/5/30 A.D. He was confirming his new covenant with the Jews, but was cut off at the cross. The last 3 1/2 years to be confirmed by Jesus two witnesses, see Revelation 11. "They shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days (3 1/2 Years.) What do you think they were sent there for? It will be to finish confirming the Lord's covenant with Israel.

The 70 sevens prophecy was given to Daniel after he had prayed for Judah's release from the 70 years Babylon captivity. He had been reading about God's promise on that from the Book of Jeremiah. The angel Gabriel then appeared to Daniel and gave him the 70 weeks prophecy which fulfillment began with the command to restore Jerusalem, then Christ's coming, and then with the 69 week ending at Christ's crucifixion. The final 70th week is still yet unfulfilled and is for the end of this world.

The people of the prince is not General Titus, the last person in verse 26 spoken of is the Messiah. Jesus is, Revelation 1:5, Jesus is, "The prince of the kings of the earth" note lower case "p". Jesus rules over all, He rules the kings, the people and puts limitations on the devil himself. See Job for type, anti-type. See Job 1:6-11, and Job 2:6.

The people of the prince destroying the city and temple most definitely is... about the Roman army under general Titus, as that is who historically destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple in 70 A.D. But Titus nor the Romans fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel, because it requires a standing temple. According the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the temple burned down before the Romans could seize it.

The meaning of the Hebrew word for "prince" is a 'commander, civil or religious' (Strong's no. 5057). In the NIV, the word for "prince" is rendered as 'ruler' in the English. So that "prince" linked to the people who destroy is not... our Lord Jesus Christ.

The "he" pronoun in Dan.9:27 continues the subject of the false prince, or commander. It's not about Titus in Dan.9:27 but about the future Antichrist, or "vile person" of Dan.11 that makes a "league" with a "small people", establishing the "holy covenant" again with sacrifices (and a new temple), and then he ends the sacrifices in the middle of the "one wee" (70th week), and instead places the "abomination that maketh desolate", i.e, an idol, which is the "abomination of desolation" warning Jesus gave in Matthew 24 about the end.

Jesus had pronounced his jugdment on the Jews days before the cross,

Matthew 23:38, "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."With Matthew 24:2, "Jesus said looking down on the Temple Mt. and said, "See you not all these things? verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Forty years later, both prophesies were fulfilled. 

There will be another destruction on the Temple Mount when Jesus returns at His future 2nd coming (Zech.14 when His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem; Rev.11 with the great earthquake and a tenth of the city falling.) As of right now, there are still... stones on top of another there; it's called the Dome of The Rock, an Islamic shrine.

Furthermore, the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel is not about a physical destruction of the temple. It is about the spiritual desolation of a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem with an idol abomination being setup in false worship. That is what Antiochus IV did in 165-170 B.C. Jerusalem.

You wrote, "Antiochus IV best fit the Dan.11 abomination of desolation prophecy, yet our Lord Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" about 200 years after Antiochus IV had been dead. That moved the Dan.11 "abomination of desolation" prophecy to the future." 

Phil replies, Antiochus did what he did in a temple that was already dead to God. the Holy of Holies was an empty room having no sacred vessels, no mercy seat, no ark of the covenant, nothing. The priests of the temple were appointed by men not God. So what did Antiochus desicrate? nothing but the floor. It's not the Temple that's sacred to God, it's the ground David purchased for the Lord on Mt. Moriah, it's the ground that's called the "Holy place" nothing else.

Antiochus Epiphanes placed an idol in the temple upon the altar in Hellenistic Zeus worship and sacrificed swine upon it. That is an abomination to God, and that was how the Jewish temple in Jerusalem in 170 B.C. was desolated.  See Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews (XII.5.4).

What stands today on Mt Morriah is the Dome of the Rock, a pagan temple, having idol worshippers who have taken Jesus glory and given it over to a false god called Allah. That's what's "standing" on God's Holy mountain, that's the abomination od desolation Daniel is speaking of.

Islam is a creation of the Holy Roman empire (Catholic church) who itself was a creation of secular Rome. So the 4th beast is still alive and kicking today!

Phil

Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have for the last couple of decades been gathering materials to build the 3rd temple in Jerusalem, and start up old covenant worship again. That has been one of their long-range plans ever since the 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.

https://www.templemountfaithful.org/