Author Topic: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23  (Read 147 times)

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Offline lea

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Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« on: Tue Nov 05, 2019 - 16:55:30 »
John 21:
18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.” 19 Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He *said to him, “Follow Me!”

20 Peter, turning around, *saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 So Peter seeing him *said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” 23 Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?”



This is clear and plain evidence that Jesus returned in the clouds around AD 70.

Jesus told Peter the manner he would die and glorify God. And we know that was true. Peter was crucified upside down. I read it was because he said he was not worthy that he should die as the Lord did.
Now I ask you, Jesus also said of the disciple He loved that he would remain till He came.

If the prediction the Lord gave about Peter was true, then that very disciple that Jesus loved must have lived at least till AD 70.

This reminds me of a similar prediction by Jesus in Matt.24:34- Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.


Offline robycop3

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #1 on: Wed Nov 06, 2019 - 01:39:31 »
  No, Jesus has NOT yet returned. Remember, He said EVERY EYE would see His return. And He will take over the rule of the world when He does return.

Offline lea

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #2 on: Wed Nov 06, 2019 - 10:19:10 »
  No, Jesus has NOT yet returned. Remember, He said EVERY EYE would see His return. And He will take over the rule of the world when He does return.

First of all, you did not even consider the scriptures I gave and told me to remember Rev.1:7 which says, 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

So who are the "tribes of the earth?" Israel. Who are "even they who pierced Him?" The Romans who wrote in their annuls about seeing armies of angels in the sky around AD 67.

You're overlooking so many verses that state how all the things in the book of Revelation began and ended with "the time is near" "the things that must soon take place,"etc.

Remember what God said to Israel in Deut. 18:22- that if a prophet's words don't come to pass or come true, the predictions are not from God. In Revelation, Jesus said He was the spirit of prophecy. So He must be a true prophet.

Also, Peter said: 2Pet.3:13, But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. Does the Holy Spirit help you get it?
If the new heaven and earth didn't come yet, then no one has been made righteous in Christ today!



Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #3 on: Wed Nov 06, 2019 - 16:08:09 »
Hi lea,

You asked if the disciple Jesus loved did not die.  Yes, he did.  He died ONCE back in John chapter 11, and was raised from the dead 4 days later by Jesus, NEVER TO DIE AGAIN. 

This is why the beloved disciple (Lazarus) that Jesus referred to in John 21:22 was going to “remain” on the earth, living until Jesus came bodily in AD 70 to stand on the mount of Olives, as Zechariah 14:4-5 predicted.

There were others raised from the dead by Jesus and the disciples during Christ’s earthly ministry and afterward who would also stay alive, like Lazarus, and who would also  “remain” on the earth as resurrected persons until that AD 70 coming of Christ (like the Matthew 27:52-53 group of saints raised along with Christ, for example). 

Paul spoke in I Thess. 4:15 and 17 of those who were then “alive” and who would “remain” until the coming of the Lord.  They were saints who by that point in time had been MADE ALIVE by the resurrection process - which for Christ and His saints is NOT a condition which can be lost (Romans 6:9).


You are on target with identifying “every eye” seeing Christ’s coming return with clouds as being the “tribes of the earth” in ISRAEL of the first century.  That first-century generation of the tribes of Israel as well as the Romans both shared responsibility for “piercing” the Savior.  They are specified as the ones in the particular group of “every eye” that would see Christ’s physical return.

Did you know, lea, that a record of armored angel troops in the clouds was not the first time that this phenomena occurred?  It’s recorded that it also happened once back in Maccabean times, as the Israelites were battling for their independence.

Offline lea

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #4 on: Wed Nov 06, 2019 - 17:56:58 »
I appreciate you identifying "the disciple that Jesus loved" as Lazarus but I do not agree with him never physically dying again.
Some Preterists believe there was an literal "rapture" of the living in AD70. However, nowhere is it recorded that living bodies were seen ascending. Also, just as in Matt.27, when those saints came out of the grave and appeared to many, we don't hear of anyone missing Lazarus & co. in AD70!

I don't believe there was a "rapture" of the living in AD70. Paul did not mean this in 1Thess.4 or 1 Cor.15.

But perhaps it can be for another Preterist topic here.

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #4 on: Wed Nov 06, 2019 - 17:56:58 »



Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #5 on: Wed Nov 06, 2019 - 21:13:07 »
Hi again lea,

If you are convinced that Lazarus died again a second time, then what do you do with the text that says “...it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE” (not twice), “but after this the judgment.” ?

If Lazarus had died again after Jesus raised him from the dead, his resurrection would not have been any kind of display of God’s glory at all, (as Jesus repeated to Martha in John 11:40) if Lazarus’ resurrection wasn’t a permanent condition.  Also, what kind of reassurance would that be for us throughout all eternity, if our resurrection were a condition that could at any moment be lost to us once again by the possibility of our dying again another time?  The gift of God is supposed to be “ETERNAL life through Jesus Christ our Lord” - not a temporary benefit.

Your objection is that we have no record of living bodies seen ascending in AD 70.  Remember this, we have absolutely no recorded observation of an eye-witness seeing Jesus ascend to the Father on the day of His resurrection, either.  Yet we know that he did ascend that same morning, as He promised to Mary Magdalene in John 20:17, and returned to earth soon after offering His blood sacrifice to God on heaven’s mercy seat.

In the same way, we must believe on faith scripture’s promises that this predicted rapture of the RESURRECTED SAINTS (not ordinary living saints who hadn’t died yet) actually did occur as foretold for that generation. 

The resurrected body is not necessarily visible at all times, you know, just as Christ’s resurrected body could vanish from sight by His own volition.  There are manifold examples in scripture of God choosing to grant to certain individuals vision or hearing of something miraculous, but withholding that same perception from others.  Selective revelation by Gods choice.

The AD 70 rapture occurred at Jerusalem’s Mount of Olives location where all the resurrected saints were gathered together to join Christ from all points of the compass.  It would have happened in the “twinkling of an eye”.  If you blinked, you would have missed seeing it, I would think. 

Not all humanity on the earth at that time would have witnessed this local event - especially since Zechariah 14:7 prophesied  that this coming of Christ to the Mount of Olives was going to happen at “evening time”.  Jesus only promised that “some” of those standing in front of Him in Matthew 16:27-28 would live to see Him returning with the angels and with rewards.  I believe what Jesus promised came true before that first-century generation passed, even though I never saw the physical rapture of the resurrected saints happen, and have no record in my hands of anyone seeing the actual event take place in real time.

“Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed”, Jesus said.  I plant the foot of faith on those words in John 20:29. 

I believe.


Offline lea

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #6 on: Thu Nov 07, 2019 - 12:36:32 »
Yes, man is appointed to die once but I think Lazarus was an exception because he was the subject of a miracle Jesus performed. Besides, he was only dead 4 days! ::faint:: We shouldn't be insecure about Jesus' miracle. Lazarus went on to live at least another 40 years. And I'm not questioning whether God's glory and Jesus' miracle was made proof to the Pharisees and high priests that after the 3rd day of death, that Jesus could raise the dead.
I think Jesus giving up the ghost and going to the Father was totally spiritual. No one could see that.

In your first post you said:
"This is why the beloved disciple (Lazarus) that Jesus referred to in John 21:22 was going to “remain” on the earth, living until Jesus came bodily in AD 70 to stand on the mount of Olives, as Zechariah 14:4-5 predicted."
Seriously? ....I couldn't disagree more. Zech.14 speaks of those who fought against the "NEW" Jerusalem. This is figurative language describing real places in Israel as a guide. It is spiritual Jerusalem that the prophet is talking about. God came down many times in the O.T.  It is figurative language.

See 1Cor. 15:51 regarding "the twinkling of an eye"  1Cor. 15, 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We could not see the dead rise first to heaven and the living in Christ changed. Just as we cannot "see"
anyone change at the moment they become Christians today. Paul said it was like a twinkle of the eye because he had to give it a time reference to the believers. Also at the last trumpet in those days.

Offline lea

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #7 on: Sun Nov 10, 2019 - 17:17:27 »
3 R's, I found an excellent explanation on the subject scripture of "appointed once to die"

https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/?tag=appointed+unto+a+man+once+to+die

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #8 on: Sun Nov 10, 2019 - 20:11:59 »
Hi lea,

Your link reads like a modern-day Sadducee when he denies that death is a one-time occurrence for saints such as Lazarus.  This flies in the face of Jesus’ words to the Sadducees of His day regarding the “children of the resurrection”.   Those worthy to obtain the resurrection from among the dead “...neither marry nor are given in marriage:  NEITHER *CAN* THEY DIE ANYMORE: for they are equal to the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

A second death is not even a remote possibility for a child of God, once they have been raised from the dead.  Lazarus was in an incorruptible state, once Jesus had displayed the power of God in raising him.  As were all those examples of the First-fruits saints raised with Christ in Matthew 27:52-53.  They never died again either.  Jesus declared it to be impossible.

Offline 3 Resurrections

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #9 on: Sun Nov 10, 2019 - 20:46:30 »
And lea, there is no such thing taught in scripture as a translation change for the bodies of living saints who have never died, such as in I Cor. 15 or anywhere else.  Only the DEAD are changed into an incorruptible state in that text.  ALL must pass through the death process of the body that single time. 

As for the Zechariah 12-14 chapter prophecy about Jerusalem, that is not the NEW Jerusalem that would be under attack, and then “taken” and destroyed.  It was a prophecy of PHYSICAL, AD 70 OLD Jerusalem being taken down, so that the spiritual New Jerusalem would be left established without a rival.

It’s true that God came down in the OT many times in judgment of the nations in a figurative sense.  But that changed after Jesus became incarnate and established the New Covenant with Himself permanently occupying a resurrected human/divine form as our high priest mediator. 

For any appearances that Christ made after His resurrection, He never discarded that bodily-resurrected form - it became part of His identity then and always.  So any return of Christ to earth would necessarily have to be with Him still retaining that same bodily-resurrected form. 

Zechariah 14:4-5 described the time and the place that Jesus would return for His second coming in AD 70.  The direction of the EAST of Jerusalem mentioned in Zech. 14:4 was very important.  EAST was always emphasized in the OT as having great sacred significance; particularly the eastern gate of Zerubbabel’s rebuilt temple in Ezekiel 46:1-3. 

If Christ’s return was to be only a spiritual one, the direction of the compass would have no relevance, don’t you think?  Besides, there would be no need for a “spiritual” return of Christ if He had ALREADY granted His Spirit, the Comforter, to be within His saints after He left this earth in Acts 1.

Offline lea

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 14:15:10 »
Zechariah 14:1-7 is primarily a prophecy predicting the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. There is first the natural and then the spiritual. First, God defeated His adulterous Bride, earthly Jerusalem. Then He began to war against the heathen enemies of His true Bride, the heavenly Jerusalem.  The warfare spoken of in Zechariah 14:1-2 is about physical warfare and the destruction of physical Jerusalem. Then the warfare of Zechariah 14:3-7 is about spiritual warfare in which the Lord himself fights for spiritual Jerusalem, His Bride, the Church.

The Mt. of Olives is an allusion to where Jesus warned the disciples to flee from Judea when they saw the Roman armies (the abomination that causes desolation) encroaching the city.

The Church historian Eusebius recounts that the Jerusalem Christians were warned in a vision to depart Jerusalem because its destruction was near. According to the Jewish historian Josephus, writing in about AD 75, “many of the most eminent of the Jews swam away from the city” in AD 64 (Jewish War II.20.1). In other words, this “exodus” from Jerusalem occurred three-and-a-half years before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Eusebius describes it like this:

“The whole body, however, of the Church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his Apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth” (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 3,5).

And thus was fulfilled the words of Christ: “Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place” (Matthew 24:34) (Taylor Marshall, Eusebius on the Flight from Jerusalem in AD 64).

Offline lea

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Re: Did the disciple that Jesus loved not die? John 21:18-23
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 14:42:04 »
Hi lea,

Your link reads like a modern-day Sadducee when he denies that death is a one-time occurrence for saints such as Lazarus.  This flies in the face of Jesus’ words to the Sadducees of His day regarding the “children of the resurrection”.   Those worthy to obtain the resurrection from among the dead “...neither marry nor are given in marriage:  NEITHER *CAN* THEY DIE ANYMORE: for they are equal to the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

A second death is not even a remote possibility for a child of God, once they have been raised from the dead.  Lazarus was in an incorruptible state, once Jesus had displayed the power of God in raising him.  As were all those examples of the First-fruits saints raised with Christ in Matthew 27:52-53.  They never died again either.  Jesus declared it to be impossible.
Lighten up brother!
You do take scripture out of context. First, they cannot die anymore refers to the apostles and disciples (including us today) that we cannot die spiritually.

How you get Lazarus to be immortal physically is just your imagination working overtime.

34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.