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Messages - notreligus

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Theology Forum / Re: Questioning the Authority of the Torah
« on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 15:00:02 »
Since Christ, there's been many antichrists attempting in a 1000 ways to subvert, deny, change, the gospel of Christ and it's infallibility. Hold fast, time is short!


Thanks for your comment.

When I first posted this thread I had Mormonism in mind as a symptom of what happens when mankind (who have the spirit of antichrist) plant seeds of doubt about reliability (really, the infallibility) of the Scriptures.   What Joseph Smith and Brigham young did has been repeated by many and it is still being done.    I am tempted to go from here into the spiritual history of England (as I planned to do) but right now I'm on the fence about that. 

End Times Forum / Re: What peace treaty?
« on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 14:52:04 »
I generally explained the first 3 1/2 years as the time of Satan's wrath and the last 3 1/2 years as the time of God's unleashed wrath. If you get too complicated it's hard for most folk to follow.  The Mid-Tribulation as that middle time when the source of the wrath changes.  I'm not going to write a book here and explain the pre-Wrath view but Pre-Wrathers don't believe that the rapture is Mid-Trib nor do they believe that God's own unleashed wrath has to begin right at Mid-Trib but that things will "heat up," so to speak, over time until God's own people are taken out as His unleashed wrath is not for them but for those who have denied His Son.   

End Times Forum / Re: What peace treaty?
« on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 14:46:46 »
The traditional teaching that I received on this for 40 years, especially from Partial Dispensationals (those who hold to Scofield's and similar teaching) was Israel would sign a treaty with an antichrist (or possible a forerunner to antichrist).   Prophecy teachers have long speculated as to where antichrist would originate.  My first dispensational teacher taught that he would come from Syria.   I generally concluded that he must be a Jew or the Jews would not accept him.   That was long before I gave much thought to how the Jews viewed Jesus during the first century.   I did not know about the Pseudopigraphal writings which were written during about 250 B.C. to 250 A.D.   Certain writers who spoke of Messiah as a political leader did not demand that he be other than a man and his divinity was not considered. He would be merely a man.    When we read the Scriptures about those things which we consider to be part of the Tribulation Period we may not be thinking in those terms and have the wrong idea about an antichrist.

We're generally in the post-Pope era of the antichrist, or what is believed about antichrist.   Jimmy Carter was once called the antichrist because some thought he was leading Israel into a bad peace treaty.   Some thought Obama might be since he was sympathetic to Muslims.    But how about this scenario, which I never envisioned to see in my lifetime:   Trump and Putin have vowed to support one another.   Yesterday Trump said that Putin supported Israel.   Trump and Netanyahu are chummy.   I can see the three of them becoming a trinity of leadership, one that has no good things in mind for Israel.   A close friend of mine is a Jew and a few days ago he told me that lately he is not real impressed with Israel and the things that Netanyahu is doing nor the friends he is making.   

Believe me, I considered this before posting and I expect to be called a kook for proposing this. I too think this sounds kooky, but a few years back I decided all of Dispensationalism was kooky after being taught by a Hyper-Dispensationalist who claimed that the Church will be raptured and will remain separate from Israel for eternity.    He said that the Church will be on a planet called the New Jerusalem. 

Theology Forum / Re: Questioning the Authority of the Torah
« on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 09:43:11 »
Not really.  If you wanted to introduce other books or alternate history (alternative facts?), then the first thing to do would be to undermine the status quo.

(Of course, it's also factual.  Our status quo deserves some undermining.)

You are essentially correct.

I'll go on to paraphrase what the author had to say about this.   The earliest members of the Mormon church were Europeans (obviously) and Europeans came here with their pent-up demand for having an environment where they could express their alternate beliefs.   Europe, especially Britain, was hierarchical in how religion was expressed as it was largely controlled by state-approved church groups.   The second round of membership in the Mormon church came the efforts of selected representatives of the Mormon church who were sent to Britain to recruit members.   

Many were ready to accept this new "gospel" which was presented as American (Mormons taught that Jesus came to America to witness to the Native Americans after His resurrection) and by an American prophet with a particular message for this fledgling country as many folk were looking for a faith in a religion that was more tangible to them.   In Europe the scholars had planted seeds of doubt in the reliability of the canon of Scripture.   

Theology Forum / There's Only One Way
« on: Tue Jul 17, 2018 - 09:26:27 »
John 14:6  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 14:7  If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."

Rom 5:6  For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7  For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—
Rom 5:8  but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9  Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Heb 11:6  And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Gal_2:16  yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal_2:20  I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Our philosophies won't save us, our politics won't save us, our intellect won't save us, our personally perceived Jesus won't save us.   

There is only one way to be saved.   It's not a personal opinion.    God Almighty has defined how we are saved.   

Chat with Moderators / Re: Functionality
« on: Sat Jul 14, 2018 - 12:46:38 »
I tried using Italics this morning and that function has been restored.   I have not tried other functions yet but will.   I presume they'll also be working now.   

Theology Forum / Questioning the Authority of the Torah
« on: Sat Jul 14, 2018 - 12:43:24 »
Yesterday I reading certain chapters of Brian Moynahan's book, The Faith: A History of Christianity.  One Chapter, Chapter 30, is dedicated to history of the Mormons.    This is a statement pulled from the first page of this chapter (page 610):

"Tradition accorded authorship of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy to Moses himself.  The scholar Richard Simon had been expelled from the French Oratory in 1678 for claiming that variation in styles and accounts made this impossible.  Johan Gottfried, professor of philosophy at Gottingen a century later, studied books and contemporary Semitic writing and concluded that Genesis and other Old Testament books had been frequently reedited and thus were of composite authorship.  Another German scholar, Julius Wellhausen, concluded that the Pentateuch, though drawing on sources dating back to the ninth century B.C., was not finalized until about 400 B.C.   It remained hazardous to criticize too freely – clergymen-scholars in England complained of an “abominable system of terrorism” that threatened them with the deprivation of the livings for querying the divine inspiration of the Scriptures – but it was slowly accepted by scholars that Moses was not as prolific a wordsmith as had been taught."   

Does this strike anyone as odd for the author to have inserted this statement on the first page of a chapter concerning the Mormons, or the Latter Day Saints?   Why would he have placed this here?   

Christian Politics Forum / I Didn't Do It
« on: Sat Jul 14, 2018 - 11:41:00 »
A man named Leo Kottke is one of my favorite guitarists.   Years ago PBS aired a documentary about Leo and this included some film with Leo and his children.   For example, there was film of Leo and his children taking a ride in the family Volkswagen.   Leo was in the front seat driving the car and his two children were in the back seat.   His son and daughter were arguing about something - I forgot what but it does not matter.   The son hit is sister in her arm and she began to cry.   Leo fussed at his son and told him he ought not be hitting his sister.   His son replied, "I didn't hit her - my hand did."   

This reminds me of the person who calls himself our President and leader of the free world.   He cannot take responsibility for anything, nor will he let his BFF, Putin, have anything regarding election intrusion pinned on him..  How can a man lead the free world and be so dishonest?   After this latest indictment of Russians who interfered with our 2016 election, he still blames Obama for what the Russians did.    This sure reminds me of the story I posted above. 

Christian Politics Forum / Re: Demonic influences here-
« on: Sat Jul 14, 2018 - 11:27:47 »
There are indeed demonic influences at work in this forum, and everywhere, for that matter.    As Keith Green said, "No One Believes in Me Anymore."  But, Satan easily hides behind this unbelief and attacks the Christian too.   We need discernment to know what is of God and what is a lie of the Devil as he disguises himself.

General Discussion Forum / Re: LGBTQI2S-P A time that has come?
« on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 10:43:48 »

You are strong-willed, and while you are not naive, I believe that along with your struggles to grasp the Gospel and the Scriptures you are influenced by others who may be more concerned with things other than your spiritual condition.

There are two fine Christian ladies at this forum whom I believe would be more than glad to help you with your questions:  Chosenone and MeMyself.   

General Discussion Forum / Re: LGBTQI2S-P A time that has come?
« on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 10:40:38 »
You're kidding, right??   Which is more acceptable to God, hate of gays or hate of Hispanics?   

Before the foundation of the world, God envisioned the Church.   You may not understand the meaning of that due to the influence of modernism and the emphasis on the intellectual vs. the spiritual.    When the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write the Book of Romans He knew that the Book of Romans would not just apply to the first century church but would also be read by us in 2018.    We have this same sort of society that Paul referred to in Romans Chapter One with people who are perverted, inwardly and outwardly, and this perversion has resulted in the behavior of people and the disdain for the things of God we see today.  The way I have presented Romans Chapter One here is the way I have heard this passage of Scripture taught all of my life, and, thank God, I have never fallen prey to the modernist intellectuals who have been trying to re-write the Scriptures to suit their own purposes for many years.   

General Discussion Forum / Re: LGBTQI2S-P A time that has come?
« on: Fri Jul 13, 2018 - 10:29:26 »
LBGT tend to get tossed into the drawer with other minorities, but they really don't fit there very well.

Hate directed against any people group is wrong.   In the context of the OP I am more interested in helping a person with his or her spiritual condition rather than splitting hairs.   

General Discussion Forum / Re: LGBTQI2S-P A time that has come?
« on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 10:37:53 »
For all you evolutionists out there.

What is the chance that this EPIDEMIC that is in every corner of the world, and growing by leaps and bounds might be
a direct result of the human evolution factor?

Why would you ask this of an evolutionist?  (You call me crazy.)  Read the Bible.  Men are liars, but God is not a man that He could lie.   

Paul, as he was moved by the Holy Spirit, has provided the answer for you.  He has described the spiritual battle that confronts all of us.  When Paul is talking about their death he's not implying that we should shoot these people because we hate what they do.   All of Paul's epistles should be read and read with understanding as they are addressed to the church, in particular.

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17  For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20  For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21  For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22  Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24  Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25  because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26  For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27  and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28  And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29  They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30  slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31  foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32  Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

We live in a time where good is called evil and evil is called good.   Yet Christians are not called to hate gays or Hispanics or blacks or Muslims.   We are to occupy until He comes.   

Churches of Christ Forum / Re: Dress Code
« on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 10:19:36 »
I can't speak to whether or not this is a trend in Churches of Christ congregations but the likely explanation is that this is just following the trend of wearing casual clothing just about anywhere.   Not to compare a worship service to a funeral :-) but it seems to me that over the past few years I've noticed a trend in folk wearing casual clothing to funerals.   About the only men's ties in sight are worn by the presiding preacher who is giving the eulogy and men who work for the funeral home.   When I started my sales career in the 1970s it was not "kosher" to make sales calls without wearing a tie.  For years now I found it a rare occasion to run into even a business owner - my customer - to be wearing a tie.    Most times it was my calling on people who wore golf shirts with product brands or company names on them.   A communion service is a very special part of a worship service.   I would hope that it is not taken as a casual aspect of the worship service because of the casual attire.   If it is a concern bring it up to the church leadership and ask them to make sure that those who take part in administering the communion service have not forgotten the significance of communion.  It's probably not that way but, again, just following the current fashion trends.

As usual, and as Paul Harvey used to say, now we need to know the rest of the story, the most important part which was left out.

I also heard this live press conference this morning and I heard Trump say that all nations agreed to up their contributions to 4%.   Well, the United States has never given more than 3.6% and it is projected that the United States contribution will be lowered to 2.7%.   Within minutes of Trump leaving the podium President Macron made a public statement that neither France nor any other nation agreed to contribute more than the amount which was already agreed upon per the 2024 deadline for all nations to contribute 2% by 2024.   This 4% number is a fabrication of Trump.   This "President" continues to look like a liar and someone who has no business speaking for the United States.   Our own Senate voted 97 to 2 in favor of the United States' staying dedicated to the NATO alliance prior to his meeting with NATO because they were - finally - concerned about what he might say or do .   Why is it that this man is cheered for not improving the the position of the United States within the world, but he is in fact wrecking it?   A nice and very friendly woman here told me I was brainwashed.  She's got that one backwards, as it's not me who is brainwashed.   

Christian Politics Forum / Breakfast at NATO Summit
« on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 19:12:05 »
WH Chief of Staff, John Kelly, appeared to be very uncomfortable during breakfast this morning at the NATO summit.   Sarah Sanders said that he was upset that he wasn't served a Denny's Super Slam breakfast, but most people think he was contemplating leaving the table as Trump was embarrassing him and others with his claims that Russia now controls Germany.   

Let us learn from Paula White, Trump's personal spiritual advisor:


"I think so many people have taken biblical scriptures out of context on this, to say stuff like, 'Well, Jesus was a refugee,'" White responded. "Yes, He did live in Egypt for three-and-a-half years. But it was not illegal. If He had broken the law then He would have been sinful and He would not have been our Messiah." - Paula White

Someone please confirm that this story originated with Babylonbee.com.

Christian Politics Forum / Re: Our POTUS fighting for us at NATO!
« on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 11:10:56 »
The purpose of NATO is for mutual support among member nations.   It is an alliance.  This alliance previously agreed that member nations have until 2024 to build up their financial contributions to 2% (correction: to be increased to 4%) of GDP.   Yet another prior agreement that Trump does not want to honor.   

There are many American bodies buried in NATO nations, those who gave their lives for the freedom of these people and Americans.    Trump has no sense of honor.   

Chat with Moderators / Re: Functionality
« on: Wed Jul 11, 2018 - 11:01:30 »
I use Mozilla's Firefox browser. 

Theology Forum / Re: The Red Heifer:
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:24:15 »
It's been at least twenty years ago by now that I first heard that a priesthood in Israel has been involved with breeding animals and trying to come up with a suitable heifer, or herd, to use in a Third Temple.


Theology Forum / Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:17:09 »

Why would you place so much emphasis on a word translated from the original manuscripts? Especially when that word didn't exist prior to the Latin translation.

Seems very odd that "caught up" translates to Harpazo and back to English as "snatched or seized".

The translated words mean essentially the same thing.   What must be understood is that God's fully unleashed wrath is not for His people.  Whether He seizes me, snatches me, or catches me up won't matter to me if I'm on this Earth when He is about to unleash His wrath.   

Theology Forum / Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:14:19 »
Here are additional comments on the “Rapture” scenario.

   Let it be noted that if Paul in 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 fails to bolster the “Rapture” doctrine, it falls by the wayside. Let’s examine the apostle’s remarks in detail. We’ll read them as they appear in Ist Thess. 4.
   13. “Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14. We believe Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, and are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

   1) Paul is speaking of one event, one occurrence, one happening—not two. It all happens in instantaneous succession.

  2) A speedy return of the Lord apparently was on the minds of the Thessalonian saints, and they felt badly about those who had “fallen asleep” (died), thinking it a great loss that they were not alive to meet Jesus when He made His second advent (v.13).

   3) When Jesus is personally revealed again, those saints who have died will be resurrected from their paradise abode and accompany Jesus as He gathers to Himself those who are still alive (v.14).

    4) It would take a lot of theological distorting of verse 15 to make it mean something other than what Paul said. When Jesus makes His second personal advent, living saints will not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep, but “will be caught up together with them [departed saints] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

    5) Jesus will return from heaven for the second time with an announcement everyone will be able to hear (v.16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected prior to meeting the Lord, and prior to living saints gathering to Him.

  6) In verse 17, “after that” points directly to the same sequence of things, as mentioned in verse 16. In other words, living saints will be caught up with resurrected saints the moment those saints are raised. I repeat again: Only one advent is alluded to in these verses.

   Nowhere in scripture does it speak of Jesus making two personal advents, following His ascension into heaven two-thousand years ago. Nor do they speak of saints ascending into heaven twice.

   Saints have been reigning with Jesus since He was “Exalted [enthroned] to the right hand of God” (Acts 2:33-35). He now sits on “David’s throne” (Acts 2:30) in heaven as King over God’s new nation or kingdom, the community of the saints.

   Jesus’ throne in heaven typifies David’s reignship over old Israel. David reigned as king over old Israel; Jesus now reigns as King over new Israel, the family of believers. The saints at Colosse had been “rescued from the dominion [kingdom] of darkness” and transferred “into the kingdom of the Son He loves” (Colossians 1:13).

   As there can be no body without a head, or a kingdom without a king, we conclude that since the believers at Colosse were citizens of God’s kingdom, Jesus must have been their King! If He is now King, and He is, why in logic’s name would He surrender his superior kingship in heaven to return to earth to become King of an inferior kingdom during an alleged thousand-year earthly reign?


He's not going to come back to reign over an inferior kingdom with the Mosaic Law and animal sacrifices restored.   To restore the Mosaic Law would require that Jesus step down and leave the Law to reign superior.   I don't agree with Dispensationalists who claim two future kingdoms are yet to come.   

I believe that Jesus is going to reign over a permanent kingdom on the New Earth.   It will be like the one originally created by God for Him to have a relationship with His people. 

Chat with Moderators / Re: Functionality
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:02:37 »

I used to do that in the 90's  ::crackup::  These days it doesn't matter one iota, surely you can spare 1GB of storage for internet cache. It definitely makes life easier and truthfully I didn't clear any internet history on my previous desktop for 4 years.

I don't have the functionality problem either but none of us are able to fix anything on the site, that is a job for admin.

I know you are computer savvy, but I started with Unix and DOS commands to operate an NCR (Burroughs) computer (networked with a telephone line modem) and a PC.   I do believe that cleaning a cache is helpful;  however, if I were a member of a mesh network it would be to the benefit of others in the network that I not clean the cache so others could access various sites faster. 

I've had this loss of functionality for a very long time (a year or more) but I've just lived with it.  For awhile I was able to use the quote function by selecting the Quote tab but lately I've had to revert to opening a new window like I was doing before.   

I would appreciate hearing from Messianics or Non-Messianic Jews as to their thoughts on how Evolution may or may not be in conflict with the Torah.    Thank you.

Theology Forum / Re: Wider Hope - Salvation
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:28:58 »
James 2018, thanks for the recommendation for reading.   I hope you don't mine my making a recommendation to you.   You may want to do more reading on the Apostle Paul and his ministry.   It's helpful to know to whom he was addressing in each epistle and the circumstances behind his particular writings.   Acts Chapter Fifteen is good for some background on Paul's disputes with the leaders of the Jerusalem Church.   In the epistles to the church at Thessalonica Paul's teachings and efforts to evangelize were challenged by unbelieving Jews, believing Jews (the circumcision), Greek pagans and the Romans.   Sometimes the Book of Romans is not understood to be an admonishment to both believing Jews and to Greek/Gentile converts that neither has a superior position in Christ.   We can note that Paul essentially called Peter a hypocrite in Galatians 2:11 because Peter had turned away from ministering to Gentiles and agreed with other Jerusalem Church leadership that Gentile converts had to be circumcised.

Chat with Moderators / Re: Functionality
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:15:19 »
My browser is set to delete browsing each time I close it.   I don't let my cache build up with useless browsing history. 

News from Around the World / Re: Jimmy Carter
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 12:12:08 »
GR, I am unable to quote your last post. 

The comparison is a President v. a President.   Apparently you did not get that.    You approve of one President and disapprove of the other.   An understanding of the righteousness of a Christian, and from Whom it is imputed, would eliminate your ambivalence.  Jimmy Carter has professed his faith in Christ and his need for a Savior.  His life has been a witness for Christ.  This does not cause me to agree with his position on gay marriage.     

Chat with Moderators / Functionality
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 11:57:13 »
I am able to type with basic typing functionality and nothing else.   I would appreciate someone helping to restore Bold, Italized, Underline, Fonts, and ability to insert images, Emoticons, etc.   Thank you.

Christian Politics Forum / Re: Brett Kavanaugh
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 11:48:36 »
Judge Andrew Napolitano is disappointed with the selection of Brett Kavanaugh as the suggested new Justice of the Supreme Court.


Christian Politics Forum / Re: Brett Kavanaugh
« on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 21:03:42 »
No surprise here.  I would have been more surprised had he not announced Kavanaugh as his pick. 

News from Around the World / Re: Jimmy Carter
« on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 21:00:03 »
GR: If Jimmy Carter publicly claimed that it was common practice for him to go up to a woman he does not know and grab her in her genital area, and he said that he thought it was not a big deal to have an affair with a porn star, and if he further said that his greatest challenge (compared to someone in the active military) was to avoid getting sexually transmitted diseases, would you think better or worse of Jimmy Carter versus his opinion about gay marriage?   

This is the long established position on baptismal regeneration, still followed by the great majority of Churches of Christ:

Immersion is The Gospel in Water


I proceed to show that immersion and regeneration are two Bible names for the same act, contemplated in two different points of view...Regeneration and immersion are, therefore, are two names for the same thing...Call immersion then, a new birth, a regeneration, a burial and resurrection, and its meaning is the same.

All these testimonies concur with each other in presenting the act of faith - Christian immersion, frequently called conversion as the act, inseparately connected with the remission of sins; or that change of state, of which we have already spoken.

In one sense a person is born of his father; but not until he is first born of his mother. So in very place where water and the Spirit, or water and the Word, are spoken of, the water stands first. Every child is born of its father, when it is born of its mother. Hence the Saviour put the mother first, and the Apostles follow Him. No other reason can be assigned for placing the water first.

He that has never been in the womb of waters, never has been born of water. Begotten of God he may be; but born of God he cannot be, until born of water.

Down into the water you were led. Then the name of the Holy One upon your faith, and upon your person, was pronounced. You were then buried by the water under that name. It closed itself upon you. In its womb you were concealed. Into the Lord, as in the water, you were immersed. But in the water you continued not. Of it you were born, and from it you came forth, raised with Jesus, and rising in his strength. There your consciences were released, for there your old sins were washed away.

In the third place, I proceeded to show that we have the most explicit proof that God forgives sins for the name's sake of his Son, or when the name of Jesus Christ is named upon us in immersion; that in, and by, the act of immersion, or soon as our bodies are put under water, at that very instant our former or "old sins," are all washed away; provided only, that we are true believers.

I am bold, therefore, to affirm, that every one of them who, in the belief of what the apostles spoke, was immersed, did, in the very instant in which he was put under water, receive the forgiveness of his sins, and the gift of the Holy Spirit. If so, then, who will not concur with me in saying that Christian immersion is the Gospel in water?

Quotes by Alexander Campbell
From: Millennial Harbinger, May 5, 1830, "Extra"
"The Christian System," by Alexander Campbell, p. 207
"Campbell-Rice Debate," p. 443

Theology Forum / Re: John's baptism was "not" for the remission of sin
« on: Fri Jul 06, 2018 - 11:08:21 »

I am unable to quote you - I can only type and have no other functionality available to me - so I am answering your question about the symbolism of water baptism here:

Dead to Sin, Alive to God
Rom 6:1  What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  let it not be! we who died to the sin--how shall we still live in it?
Rom 6:3  are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
Rom 6:4  we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
Rom 6:5  For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;
Rom 6:6  this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
Rom 6:7  for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.
Rom 6:8  And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,
Rom 6:9  knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship;
Rom 6:10  for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he liveth, he liveth to God;
Rom 6:11  so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul said that baptism is a likeness of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.   Jesus Christ is the one who saves and God Almighty chose Christ's sacrifice and his paying the price for sin in a substitutionary way as the way we must be saved.   No group like the Church of Christ or any other denomination gets to choose how God saves.   They are relying on their personal religion and personal interpretation, which is worth zero.    When we are saved, truly saved, 
we die to our old ways of either having relied on Law or self-righteousness, our old self is buried, and we live a new life by the power of the Holy Spirit. 

When Peter told the Jews - yes, Jews! - to repent and be baptized he was telling them to leave Moses and come under the authority of Jesus Christ, and immersion was symbolic of how they had indeed chosen Jesus Christ over Moses and the Mosaic Law.     

As far as the original post....anyone ought to be able to read Luke Chapter Three and understand John the Baptist's mission and the purpose of his mission.    Religion and indoctrination are what get in the way of understanding.   The Bible is one continuous Book, from Genesis to Revelation, and the subject is reconciliation.    Dispensationals, Evolutionists, and Fundamentalists have done the church a great disservice in understanding the Scriptures.     

Apologetics Forum / Re: The Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ
« on: Sat Jun 23, 2018 - 09:05:05 »
“Expiation” refers to the removal of guilt. “Propitiation” says guilt is removed by the offering of a sacrifice that effectually turns aside God's wrath and anger towards sinner – Kim Riddlebarger

Christ's sacrifice and shed blood was the only offering which God Almighty would accept as a permanent payment.    Prior to Christ's finished work the Jews had to repeatedly offer sacrifices (through the priests) to make them ritually pure before God, but this brought about only temporary relief from their sinful condition.   

General Discussion Forum / Re: Hitler and the Jews
« on: Sat Jun 23, 2018 - 08:54:50 »
"Against Our Better Judgment," by Alison Weir, thoroughly documents this subject.  I have this book and have read it.   Half of the book is documentation. 

Britain also refused to take the Jews before Hitler's war effort was fully engaged.   They published the famous "White Paper" about this.   

From 1907 to 1914 10,000 Jews were allowed into the United States through the port of Galveston, Texas. 25% of them stayed in that area.  They came to escape persecution in Russia and elsewhere.   This program seemed to work out well, but years later immigration policies were made more restrictive as Germany was ramping up for WWII.

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