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Messages - dpr

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1
General Discussion Forum / Re: Questions for Post-Tribulationists.
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 15:40:52 »
I'll take on those questions, and a lot of them are redundant, obviously in order to appear like there's more questions than there really is.


"Question 1: Show me the rapture mentioned in Revelation 19:11-21 or Zechariah 14:1-5? It’s not there."

I don't use the word "rapture", neither does God's Word. Rapture comes from a Latin translation of the Greek word harpazo ("caught up" in the KJV). So from the start, dispel any and all "rapture" theory usages.

Revelation 19:2 Jesus has avenged His saints; Rev.19:7-9 the marriage of The Lamb, and those called to it, which per Matt.25 is when Jesus returns.

Zech 14:3-5
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
KJV

Parallel proof that the Mount of Olives is where Jesus will literally return to is in Acts 1, showing where He ascended to Heaven from, and the angels revealing that He would return in like manner.



"Question 2: Show me the church mentioned in one OT or NT passage discussing the tribulation?"

Easy.

Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
KJV

Jesus then explained to them what would befall His Church at the end of this world just prior to His return to gather them, since the very last sign He gave in that Olivet Discourse was the sign of His Second Coming.

In 2 Thess.2 Apostle Paul covered signs of the future tribulation at the end of this world. Apostle John was given the Revelation by Jesus, and it covers many signs of the very end of this world which parallel His Olivet Discourse signs? Ever read it???



"Question 3: How can the rapture and glorious appearing be on the same day when the rapture day is unknown and the glorious appearing day will be known? How can a day be both known and unknown?"

The misunderstanding is your own fault; trying to apply absolutism dating to an unknown day. If someone says, "on that day", it means a certain and specific day, but it doesn't define the exact date like October 22, 19.... Christ's return will be on a specific day, and hour, but like He said no man knows what 'date' that is. Yet He did... give His to know events leading up to that day, and that's for His that believe and watch, staying in His Word of Truth.



Question 4: The open door into heaven with a voice, trumpet, and catching up to heaven occurs in both Rev 4:1 and I Thess 4:16-18.Why do post-tribs reject this as the pre-trib. rapture? Open door Rev 19:11.

If one continues to read Rev.4:2, should notice that John said he was "in the spirit" when that happened. There's Old Testament examples of that also, like Isaiah 6. Ever read it? Or Ezekiel 8. Ever read it? If you had, you wouldn't have allow those without knowledge to misguide you to think Rev.4:1 is about a rapture. John's flesh body was simply in prison on Patmos while his spirit was shown the Revelation visions.

In Rev.19:11, Heaven is opening with Jesus Christ coming on His white horse, with a sword. No "rapture" idea there at all.



"Q5: If you accept the 2 witnesses are caught up to heaven in Rev 11:12 by ‘Come up hither’ why not rapture in 4:1?"

Because Rev.11:12 specifically is... about the final 7th Trumpet ("last trump") being changed and caught up to the Heavenly at the end of this world per Christ's Promises, while Rev.4:1 is about John being in prison on Patmos with God touching John's spirit to see visions. Same thing in Ezekiel 8 when Ezekiel was shown by God visions in the temple.


"Question 6: Show me the church on earth from Revelation 6-18? It is not there because it is in heaven."

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Where is it taught in the NT that Jesus will come "as a thief in the night"? By Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5, right after he had mentioned being "caught up" by Jesus in 1 Thess.4. Jesus is speaking DIRECTLY TO HIS CHURCH ON THE 6TH VIAL timing. He is warning His Church that is ON EARTH, to keep their garments lest they walk naked and in shame. In Rev.3 Jesus spoke to the Church at Sardis about defiled garments.

So there you have it, Biblical proof... that Christ's Church is STILL... on this earth all the way through the 6th Vial.




"Question 7: If the church is not raptured until Rev 20:4, as post-tribulationists think, then how could the church be in heaven in Rev 19:7-11, before Christ’s glorious appearing?"

Even a true pre-tribber ought to be embarrassed to ask this question. Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4 showed us clearly that when our Lord Jesus comes, He will bring the "asleep" saints WITH HIM...


1 Thess 4:14-15
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
KJV

 
That means those who have already died in Christ, those Jesus will raise and bring with Him when He comes back to the Mount of Olives.

This shows how pre-trib confuses the "asleep" saints today with their false pre-trib rapture view.



"Question 8: Do you agree that the 24 elders in heaven represent the raptured church age Christians?
If no, then who are they and what proof do you have of their identity?
If yes, then will you accept the pre-tribulation rapture and reject the post-tribulation rapture as error?"

I don't use the word "rapture" since The Bible doesn't either. I use "caught up" from the KJV translation of Greek harpazo. The 24 elders of Rev.4 & 5 is a post-tribulation millennial VIEW. It's a future-forward VISION John was given. Not everything John was given by vision in Revelation was in the exact order it will occur. This also is how the Old Testament prophets are written. This is why men who devise theories like the pre-trib rapture theory (began in 1830 in Britain through John Darby) show they have MUCH lacking in Old Testament Book study, especially the prophets. Apostle Peter told us to be mindful also of what is written in the prophets (2 Pet.3:2).



"Question 9: Do you agree that the armies in fine linen accompanying Christ at His return are church age Christians? If no, then who are they and what proof do you have of their identity?"

I agree they are all... believers and followers of Jesus Christ. If you left out Abraham then you'd be denying the first origins of faith on God's Promised Salvation by Faith (Galatians 3). The phrase "church age", how it's used today can be a trap into all sorts of non-Biblical doctrines of men.


"Question 10: Who are you looking for, Christ or antichrist? Why would Christ want His bride to look for the antichrist?"
 
Those who remain faithful to the end, waiting on Christ Jesus to return like the prophecy states, look for the coming Antichrist who will come first and cause great tribulation upon the saints still alive on earth, and then we look for Jesus Christ to return and defeat the Antichrist and gather us to Him and the asleep saints He brings with Him, which will end the tribulation. To refuse the warnings our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave His Church today about the coming Antichrist is a sign of rebellion against Christ Jesus, and thus that rebellious one will not remain a "chaste virgin" to Jesus when He comes later.


"Question 11: How will the tribulation sufferings comfort us? Post-tribulationists can’t explain this."

No suffering comforts us. The Holy Spirit Comforter Jesus sent comforts us. Our Lord Jesus' grace and forgiveness when we sin and repent comforts us, for all men fall short of the glory of God. So your idea is kind of... sick, as you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with a very un-Biblical analogy.


"Question 12: Does the Philadelphian church represent the faithful church at the end of the church age?
Do you believe that God will keep this church out of the time of the tribulation coming on all the world?"

Only 2 Churches in Rev.3 & 4 our Lord Jesus had no problems with, Smyrna and Philadelphia. They represent His elect saints. And what did He warn His very elect saints about in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24:23-26, which is about the time of great tribulation? Why would Jesus warn His very elect of that for that tribulation timing if they are to be raptured like the false pre-trib rapture theory of man proposes? Simply because the pre-trib rapture theory is false, a doctrine of men.


"Question 13: Since Jesus returns to earth from a wedding, doesn’t this prove the church is in heaven before the glorious appearing? Can you see that this disproves the post-tribulation rapture? Why is the church in heaven (19:7) if the church is raptured after Jesus returns to earth as post-trib claims?

You obviously cannot read. Rev.19:2, He has already... judged the whore. Rev.19 is about Christ's second coming to judge the whore. Rev.19:7-14 are about the armies of the "asleep" saints Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He comes!

Have your pre-trib teachers not taken time to explain to you that 1 Thess.4 is covering TWO GROUPS of saints, and not just one??? The first group are the saints that "sleep" in Jesus that have already died. The 2nd group are the alive saints on earth that are "caught up" to Jesus AND THEM, when He comes! The only saints who are to be "caught up" are the ALIVE saints on earth when Jesus returns to end the tribulation!

What they refuse to teach you is how THAT 1 Thess.4 scripture by Apostle Paul is showing that time of the alive saints on earth being "caught up" is the SAME... timing of the future resurrection of the saints.


"Question 14: Who is the Restrainer? If he is the Holy Spirit’s influence in the church, then doesn’t this prove the rapture comes before antichrist is revealed and before the tribulation as II Thess. 2:6-8 states?"

The one who holds of 2 Thess.2 that Paul mentioned is in Daniel 10. It is NOT... The Holy Spirit. You are presenting just another false doctrine of men, and idea from hirelings that don't understand The Word of God.

2 Thess.2 is specific... that the Antichrist will come first to cause a great apostacy, and then Jesus will come to destroy him with the brightness of His coming. THAT... is when the Antichrist will be 'revealed' to the deceived. When Antichrist first shows up THAT... is when he will be 'revealed' to Christ's elect and not the deceived. Those deceived will not know who that Antichrist really will be until Jesus returns, and thus their shame for flying away to that false one who comes first. That is exactly what pre-trib rapture theory is for, to deceive as many as will listen to men, instead of God through His Son by His Word of Truth.



"Question 15: Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and not take us there at the rapture (as post-tribulation rapture people think)?"

This so simple, if people would only read what our Lord Jesus said in John 14, even this:

John 14:3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV


Where is our Lord Jesus coming to per Scripture at His 2nd coming? To the Mount of Olives (Acts 1; Zechariah 14). That is where He is indirectly referring to. So what did the Old Testament prophets reveal about that? They revealed there will be a sanctuary complex built by Jesus there in Jerusalem (Zechariah and Ezekiel). That complex will contain 'abodes' for the priests. And that's actually what the word "mansions" in John 14 means, abodes. On earth is where the prophets show that will take place.


"Question 16: What is the purpose of the rapture if it occurs at the end of the tribulation? No purpose!"

That shows how in love one can be with a doctrine of man. Apostle Paul compared that kind of deception to men's doctrines as being spiritually "drunken" (1 Thess.5). The "caught up" idea of 1 Thess.4 is only about the saints still alive on earth to the very LAST DAY of this present world:

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV


The resurrection of the saints AND the "caught up" event occur BOTH ON THE SAME DAY, THE LAST DAY. The last day means the END of this present world, i.e., NO MORE WICKED REIGNING ON EARTH!


"Question 17: Who resurrects and gathers the church at the rapture, Christ or angels? Christ! Then how can Matthew 24:31 refer to the rapture if angels gather the elect of Israel here?"

Here you've made the same mistake again. You agree the resurrection of the "caught up" event both happen at the same time by that. But when does Scripture show the resurrection happens??? On the LAST DAY... which Jesus showed in the above Scripture I quoted from John 6:40. You can also find it in John 6:39; John 6:44; John 6:54; John 11:24; and John 12:48 reveals the wicked being judged on that same "last day".


Shall I keep going???


2
Theology Forum / Re: Hosea 1:2
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 13:24:13 »
Both.

Rebellious Israel at that time would not notice any difference in behavior if Hosea had taken a virgin wife. God wanted the people to see Hosea take a prostitute for a wife so they would question it.




1. Does this mean Gomer was a prostitute herself?

2. Or does it mean she came from one of the 10 Northern tribes who went whoring after other gods, therefore she herself was worshipping other gods, as in, making drink and cake offerings to the queen of heaven or the gods of the holls or groves?

3. Or both?

Laspino3

3
Theology Forum / Re: The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 13:19:04 »
Then are we as believers on the Blood of Jesus Christ been absolutely perfect... in our walk since we have believed on Him and been baptized???

1 John 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV




4
Theology Forum / Re: The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 13:13:43 »
cgaviria,
Galatians 3:23-27 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. [24] So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. [25] Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. [26] So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, [27] for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

But continue to Galatians 5 and note what Paul says to us...

Gal 5:16-18
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV



5
Theology Forum / Re: Christ: antichrist: singular or plural
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 13:04:26 »
We were given 3 major parallels in the NT about this final coming false-messiah at the end of the world, and the signs given to mark his difference as 'The Antichrist' from the idea of the "many antichrists".

Two antichrist concepts per the NT:

1 John 2:18 is indeed covering both a singular "antichrist", and plural "many antichrists". In Revelation 13 with the "another beast" which is to work great signs and wonders in the sight of men.

Jesus revealed this too in Matthew 24, with the 'many' who would come in His Name of Matt.24:4-5, and then the singular "false Christs" (Greek pseudochristos) of Matt.24:23-26, which context is singular, and who is to work great signs and wonders, that if possible, would deceive even Christ's own elect.

In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul revealed the coming of a singular false Christ to sit in the temple of God in Jerusalem (prophecy of a final rebuilt temple in Jerusalem for the tribulation). And how he will work great signs and wonders, and proclaim himself as God, and over all that is even called... God, or that is worshiped.

In ALL 3 of these examples, the singular Antichrist is prophesied to almost be able to fool even Christ's elect into worshiping him in place of God, because of the signs and wonders that Antichrist will be able to work in the sight of men, which is also shown us by John in the Revelation 13 Scripture. Have the "many antichrists" been able to work that level and power of deception upon the whole world? No. Has a pope ever sat in Jerusalem and played Christ? No. What about Mooney? or any other flesh man that has come claiming to be Christ in the last 2,000 years? Nope, none of them worked the great signs and wonders while sitting in God's temple in Jerusalem while imitating Jesus Christ.

So the future prophecy of a coming Antichrist that Jesus and His Apostles warned us about is still yet to occur, and MUST be fulfilled according to the signs He and His Apostles gave us, in Jerusalem. This also is how the early 1st and 2nd century Church fathers believed about the coming false one at the end of this world.


If one will notice, the majority of teaching in men's traditions today is far... away from this understanding. It's almost as if they are willingly... try to hide this Biblical revelation directly from God's Word.

6
Theology Forum / Re: Symbols in Matthew 24 & Luke 21
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 12:35:34 »
It seems to me that Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 24 is what has become known as a double or duel prophecy.  Matthew 24 prophesies both the destruction of the temple and the second coming of Jesus Christ.  Such duel prophecy has been described as looking at two mountains one right behind the other; the second being obscured by the first. Once having climbed to the top of the first, it becomes apparent that there is the second one behind the first.   I think that many of the OT prophecies exhibit this same duel subject essence.

Bang! Pretty much on the nail.

Many brethren forget disciplined Bible study in the Old Testament Books which point to this kind of dual-blueprint prophecy idea. In the Daniel prophecy about the false one coming to Jerusalem, that was almost fulfilled to a tee by Antiochus Epiphanes in 165-170 B.C. In Jesus' Olivet Discourse He brings up that prophecy from Daniel when pointing to a future fulfillment of the coming Antichrist, so He could not have been talking of Antiochus since Antiochus had already been dead for 200 or so years by then.

A parallel study in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 with the seals of Revelation 6 reveals 7 main signs of the end of this world that our Lord Jesus was giving His disciples, and us, in order to be watching for His second coming and our deliverance.

7
Theology Forum / Re: Witch of Endor
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 12:25:05 »
Exactly.

The devil did know what was going to happen to Saul. He knew that the Lord had already abandoned him, and that he had now compounded his guilt and abandonment by seeking the guidance of the dead, which the Lord had forbidden Israel to do. Not a very hard call to make.

8
Theology Forum / Re: The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 12:17:11 »
You actually proved that God's laws still exist by your statement below (underlined). And it still can... affect those of us who have believed on Jesus Christ IF... we do the works of the flesh, as Apostle Paul warned in Galatians 5.

Here, Paul sums up a lot of the still existing laws from the Old Testament that still apply today:

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV


In Romans 7, Paul showed us how we believers on Jesus can still commit sin because of our flesh. He showed we will be subject to sin as long as we are not dead. We all fall short of the glory of God and have sin. The difference between us and the ungodly sinner is that we are supposed to be trying to not sin, and repent to our Lord Jesus when we do, asking forgiveness. To wrongly assume we can no longer commit a sin after having believed on Jesus Christ is a doctrine of men and is un-Biblical.




Bornofgod, evidently you didn't read any of the responses to the OP. No one today - except for those who have not come to God in Christ - are under the old covenant law today. That is a Scriptural fact.

Blessings!

9
Theology Forum / Re: Witch of Endor
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 12:02:46 »
The main clue is that the witch had a familiar spirit, or like a lying spirit if you will (1 King 22:22). The prophet Samuel was not actually 'conjured' up. It was a lying spirit that was conjured up which only gave Saul the appearance of Samuel. And Saul believed it was Samuel though it was not. And just because it was a lying spirit, or familiar spirit of the witch, that does not mean it cannot tell truths. As a matter of fact, telling half truths (a lie mixed in with truth) is especially how the devil operates (Mark 4).

A more modern example was Edgar Cayce, called the "sleeping prophet." He would place himself in a hypnotic state and give a diagnosis to patients. Reincarnation was a common subject he would mention while under. He also made prophecies that came true, and also gave medicinal advice that modern science only learned of later. All the work of a familiar spirit that Cayce had.

10
End Times Forum / Re: What Does the Millennium Mean to You?
« on: Sat Nov 25, 2017 - 11:39:45 »
The future thousand years of Revelation 20 is a prophecy still future to us today, and will begin when Jesus Christ returns to this earth to reign on David's throne, on earth, as promised. Our Lord Jesus is presently sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne in Heaven. David's throne is, and has always been an earthly throne.

Many key events about this future thousand years period are outlined in God's Word and are simple to understand. The last 9 chapters of the Book of Ezekiel are all about that future 1,000 years period and parallels events given in Revelation involving God's River of the waters of life, and the tree of life. Even in Revelation 22:14-15 Jesus showed us the wicked will still exist in that time, but will be outside the gates of the holy city, but the righteous will have right to the tree of life.

11
End Times Forum / Re: Jesus' Olivet Discourse Not History
« on: Sat Mar 11, 2017 - 17:20:10 »
For brethren who struggle with the Revelation Seals, Trumpets, and Vials...

In Jesus' Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13, He gave only 7 main Signs to occur at the end of this world leading up to His 2nd coming. What I wrote in the previous post verifies that those 7 Signs are the same events of the Seals of Revelation 6, even with Jesus giving those 7 Signs in the order that Revelation 6 was given to John to write down.

Those 7 Signs are also the 7 Trumpet events, and the 7 Vial events also. There are only 7 Signs in Revelation too, the difference being there 3 different sets of descriptions for those same 7 Signs our Lord Jesus gave us for the end. The way you discover this is by understanding the actual 'events' given on each Seal, Trumpet, and Vial.

This is why on the 6th Seal of Revelation 6 we are shown events of the angels being cast down to earth ("stars", linked to the events of Rev.12:7 forward), and then after that those on earth wanting to hide from our Lord Jesus at His coming, which is a 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial event.


12
End Times Forum / Jesus' Olivet Discourse Not History
« on: Sat Mar 11, 2017 - 17:09:05 »
I think it only fair to post this in a new topic, since others here have begun a new topic just for rebuttal that does not point to the original location of this post:

Here is my understanding of Matthew 24, also called our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse. It is given in 3 parts, Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, as all 3 must be considered. It is linked to the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation and where Apostle Paul warned brethren about the events to come at the end of this world.

Matt 24:1-3
24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."



They sat on the mount of Olives which overlooks the temple mount. His disciples remark about the temple buildings on it and Jesus warns the day is coming when there won't be one stone on top of another standing there. Even today, there are still huge stones standing on top of another there, called the Wailing Wall. The orthodox Jews pray before it daily. The wall was part of the support for the temple mount complex. The Romans in 69 A.D. destroyed the city and the temple buildings, but not that Wailing Wall.

http://images.wisegeek.com/morning-prayers-at-the-western-wall-in-jerusalem.jpg

Therefore, the prophecy our Lord Jesus said for Jerusalem of not one stone standing upon another is not yet complete today. It is a type of dual-fulfillment prophecy, similar to the "abomination of desolation" prophecy in Daniel 11, which historically one can easily compare to what Antiochus IV did in 170-165 B.C. Jerusalem, having almost fulfilled Dan.11 to a tee.


Matt.24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV


Then His disciples asked Him 'when' that would occur, and what would be the sign of His 2nd coming.

Some abuse that phrase "the end of the world", solely trying to key on the Greek word for "world", which is Greek aion, meaning age. We know Jesus was speaking of the literal end of this world when His 2nd coming will happen. In Matthew 13:39-43 He used the same idea of the end of the world (aion) when He spoke of the Harvest at the end of this world. So we can be sure Matt.24:3 is also speaking of the literal end of this world, especially since they asked Him about the time of His 2nd coming, which the Christian Church for over 2,000 years has agreed will occur on the very last day of this present world as written (here at Matt.24:29-31 for one example).

In the next Matthew 24 verses Jesus gives seven main signs for the very end of this world leading up to His 2nd coming. They parallel the events of the Seals of Revelation 6. I will draw that parallel here to include Mark 13.

1st SIGN:


Matt 24:4-8
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you.


That is our Lord Jesus' very first warning, and sign, i.e., deception by some man proclaiming that He has come (same as in Mark 13:5 and Luke 21:8).

The Revelation 6:1-2 Seal of the rider on the white horse is the parallel. In Revelation 6:1 we are not told which Seal that is; it is assumed to be the first Seal. The rider wields a bow of cheap fabric per the Greek, and he has a victory wreath as a crown upon his head. Per Revelation 19, our Lord Jesus returns upon a white horse, and wields a sword that cuts both ways, and on His head are many crowns. We are to contrast these two descriptions and realize this one in Revelation 6:1-2 is the cheap 'knock off', i.e., the "another Jesus" Paul hinted at in 2 Corinthians 11.

If you are not aware there is a fake Jesus coming first at the end of this world, before the true 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus, then you are way behind in Bible prophecy for the end of this world, for that is what this contrast here is about between Rev.6:1-2 and Rev.19.


5 For many shall come in My name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many.



This is part of the 1st Seal also, and is the idea of another trying to deceive others into believing they are our Lord Jesus. With this warning our Lord Jesus is warning of "many" trying to play Him. But in Matthew 24:23-26 He is speaking of a singular coming false one that could, if it were possible, deceive even His very elect servants.

2nd SIGN:

Matt.24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Our Lord Jesus then warned about hearing of wars and rumours of wars, but what did He prescribe? He said don't be troubled at that, for that must happen, but the end is not... yet, meaning what? Many preachers I've heard simply leave that last phrase out of, "but the end is not yet".

The idea is that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, the very end of this world is not yet. What kind of time then is the opposite... of wars and rumors of wars? The opposite is a time of world peace. These seven signs our Lord Jesus is giving here in Matthew 24 are for the very end of this world, which will be a time of world peace. This is also what Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 5 when he said that when they shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. So our Lord Jesus gave us a major sign with this Matt.24:6 verse, because when the time of world peace comes with all wars and rumors of wars having stopped, then you know His enemy has finally taken complete control over the whole earth, something we still have yet to see in our time.


7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


This Matt.24:7 verse goes with the previous 6th verse about wars and rumors of wars. They both parallel the 2nd Seal of Revelation 6:3-4 about the one on the red horse, a war horse. These events for the end are only the beginning of sorrows. They are not the time of the actual "great tribulation" which Jesus warns of later here.

These events of wars and famines, earthquakes, pestilences in Matthew 24:6 & 7 actually are covered in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Seals of Revelation 6:

Rev 6:3-8
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


Matt.24:6, Mark 13:7, Luke 21:9, and the above already covered the red war horse and wars and rumors of wars events.

3rd SIGN:

Rev.6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


The 3rd Seal is about a time of famine, which parallels the events of Matt.24:7 famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, etc. A measure of wheat for a penny is equivalent to working all day just to buy a loaf of bread. That's what the balances here is about. But notice it says to not hurt the oil and the wine? What are those symbols for in God's Word? The wine is a symbol for God's Truth, and the oil is a symbol for The Holy Spirit. God's Message in that is that He will not let His Truth wain for His servants during that time, nor will The Holy Spirit leave us in that time.

4th SIGN:

Rev.6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
KJV


This also is part of that time of the beginning of sorrows per Matt.24:6 through 8. "Death" is the name of the rider on this pale horse. Who would have a proper name like "Death"? Satan of course, the one to whom the power of death has been assigned. "Hell" follows with him. And power is given to "them" over the fourth part of the earth to kill with 1) sword, 2) hunger, 3) with death, 4) with the beasts of the earth.

Remember, Jesus has not warned of the "great tribulation" just yet here. He has only warned of the "beginning of sorrows". These events so far have been happening in our generation today. They really picked up in the 19th & 20th centuries, especially when Israel became a nation again in 1948. We have not reached that event when we no longer hear of wars and rumors of wars though, which will be a time of 'world peace'.

What movements exist today that want world peace? One of the largest factions is the United Nations organization, which is actually the reason they claim for their existence. World Communism also has claims to world peace when their so-called 'Revolution' is finally over. We can hear the same rhetoric from world Socialists, both Eastern and Western Socialists. So the Bible student should not be ignorant of these world movements, because they will set the stage for the very end of this world when they shall proclaim Paul's time of "Peace and safety" (1 Thess.5:3).

In that same respect, these 4 things on the 4th Seal that Satan and his servants are given to kill with involve the apparatus used by the movers and shakers of the world peace movement. Their powers are divided up into 4 main categories: 1) sword = military, 2) hunger = world commerce (the balances, remember?), 3) with death = religion (spiritual death which is worse than flesh death), 4) beasts of the earth = not literal animals, but by the "brute beasts" Peter warned of, the children of darkness, the devil's own servants that hide behind the scenes and create havoc.

5th SIGN:

Matt 24:9-14
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV


All these Matt.24:9-14 events are tied to the Revelation 6:9-11 verses about the 5th Seal when many of Christ's servants will be delivered up to be killed as the slaughtered servants were in past history. This will begin when the NWO system finally comes to complete power and the deceived proclaim "Peace and safety".

This "witness" is the "testimony" of Rev.6:9 they give to all nations with The Holy Spirit speaking through them by the cloven tongue, the same cloven tongue that was manifest on Pentecost in Acts 2. Peter quoted from Joel 2 about it, and Joel 2 is about events for the very end of this world just prior to the day of The LORD (i.e., Christ'
s 2nd coming). In Matthew 10, Jesus tells His on that day to not premeditate what they will speak, but to speak whatever The Holy Spirit gives them to speak. This Testimony for Christ will be heralded to all nations at the end of this world during this time of being delivered up. Every brother and sister in Christ Jesus should be aware of this.


6th SIGN:

Matt 24:15-22
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV


When the "abomination of desolation" is setup in Jerusalem for the end, that is what events these verses are about, and is the actual start of the "great tribulation" events. Why not the previous events also?

It's because the worst thing that can happen in that time is not... flesh death, but spiritual death. And the way spiritual death will come is by deception in that time to a false one, thinking that false one is our Lord Jesus when it will not be. That is why our Lord Jesus' very 1st Sign here was to not allow any man to deceive us, and the 1st Seal was about a fake Christ riding on a white horse like how our Lord Jesus returns.

This is the time when Archangel Michael will make a 'stand' in Heaven and war against Satan and his angels as per Revelation 12:7 forward, and they are then cast out of Heaven down to this earth, de facto, here in person, and go to persecute Christ's Church who keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV


This event in bold is about Satan and his angels being cast down to this earth at the very end of this world to begin the time of "great tribulation". In Daniel 7 thru 11 we are told the end of this world will involve a symbolic period of "one week" equaling 7 years, and in the middle of that 7 years the "vile person" or "little horn" will end the daily sacrifices and instead place an idol abomination in the holy place at Jerusalem. That is what our Lord Jesus is warning of here in Matthew 24 at this point.

The 6th Seal about stars falling to earth as a fig tree that casts her untimely figs is about the idea of a winter fig. In fig horticulture the winter fig grows in winter but fall off in the spring. It represents the fake and not the true. Here it parallels the appearance of the Antichrist in Jerusalem for the end of this world and his placing of an abomination idol in the holy place at Jerusalem. At then end of Rev.13 it's called the "image of the beast" which all will be commanded to bow in false worship to.

Thus the pseudo-Christ, which Jesus is getting ready to mention in the next Matthew 24 verses, is coming on the 6th Seal.

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

Many preachers fail to notice that section of Matt.24 Scripture is about a singular false one, not the many who say they are Christ back in the 5th verse. The KJV phrase "false Christs" is actually the Greek word pseudochristos which means 'a pseudo-Christ' or a fake Christ. Our Lord Jesus is talking about the "vile person" of Daniel 11 here, the one who causes the "abomination of desolation" idol to be setup in Jerusalem. That's why this same description of one who is to come working those "great signs and wonders" is also shown in 2 Thessalonians 2 by Paul, and in Revelation 13:11 forward through Apostle John.

7th SIGN:

Matt 24:27-36
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Just as we can see lightning shine from east to west, that is how obvious to all on earth our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming will be. No one will have to come up to you and say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there". All nations on earth will see His coming in the clouds.

This example of the gathering of His saints is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints in heaven that had already died. In the Mark 13 example He shows the gathering of His saints that will be still alive on earth. So His Olivet discourse follows exactly what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the events of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church of asleep saints, and His Church still alive on earth at His return.

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV


The wicked on earth definitely will not see Christ nor our Heavenly Father in Heaven until the veil of flesh is removed from off all men on the last day of this world by God's consuming fire. That is when these above Rev.6 verse will occur, and is why those will wish for the mountains and rocks to fall upon them because of Christ suddenly appearing in the clouds at His return.

So there it is, the SEVEN SIGNS of the END that Jesus gave His servants to be watching leading up to His 2nd coming. They are a direct parallel to the Seals of Revelation 6, showing further that He was teaching His disciples and US, about the events for the end of this world leading up to His 2nd coming.

13
End Times Forum / Re: The Plan For A New Jerusalem Temple
« on: Sat Mar 11, 2017 - 16:58:37 »
To sincere brethren in Christ, nor would I recommend listening to the nut cases who claim those who disagree with their false Preterist theories are on some agenda to help the Jews and deny Jesus.

These kind of people are not interested in the Truth, otherwise they would be given to understand Old Testament prophecy linked to the prophecies our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us for the very end of this world, like our Lord Jesus' 7 signs of the very end of this world He gave in His Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 in relation to His Revelation through John.

14
End Times Forum / Re: Gog & Magog
« on: Mon Mar 06, 2017 - 13:33:16 »
In response to RB's post:

1. Yes, given in 3 main parts, Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, because all 3 of those Bible chapters directly parallel each other. So naturally that can mean they each contain some different things between them also. Don't strain at a gnat to find fault. Keep it simple.

2. You said nothing about its link to Revelation that I also mentioned.

3. You are adding falseness to what our Lord Jesus said with quoting from the Book of Daniel about the "abomination of desolation". It is ignorance to assume someone quoting a source means you don't have to read it to know the subject. You do have to have read it, or go and read it if you haven't yet. It's as simple as that.

What you've been taught to do is to deny... what the Book of Daniel shows about the "abomination of desolation" involving the placing of an idol abomination in the temple at Jerusalem, just so you can keep your traditions of men that say the falsehood that it's about destruction of the temple in 69 A.D.

4. Of course Jesus and Paul were speaking of the same event in Matt.24 and 2 Thess.2 about the coming Antichrist and desolation of a 'standing' Jewish temple in Jerusalem. It's for the end of this world, and Christ's Book of Revelation also covers it.

In 69 A.D., the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and when trying to seize control of the temple it burned down. They were not able to go inside the temple and spiritually desolate it with the placing of an idol abomination and commanding the Jews to worship it, which is what the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is about.

5. Jesus' condemnation of Jerusalem that it would be destroyed happened in 69 A.D. by the Romans. The city and its temple were destroyed... EXCEPT for those HUGE STONES STILL STANDING ON TOP OF ANOTHER at the temple mount! (Ah... you left that out, didn't you?!).

6. Your remarks suggesting the facts of history is not something we should listen to is ludicrous. God provides us with the facts of history that helps confirm... His Word of Truth. Simply throwing facts of history out the window in order to push a FALSE DOCTRINE is even more ludicrous, and even downright of the devil.

The Jewish historian Josephus is hated by the orthodox JEW, not the Christian scholar. So you might ought to think about who you're choosing to align with on those things.

Without the facts of history you can NEVER bring up the Roman's destruction of Jerusalem in 69 A.D., that's how ignorant your point is on this matter that history is against Bible Scripture.

7. There's that famous quote from 2 Peter 1:20 many like to use to try... and enforce their position, when their position is especially sitting on top of loose sand! No, no, no, you cannot bring up 70 A.D. and the Romans, because that SECULAR history, remember? Per your previous tirade against historical fact and secularism, you cannot even go to Jerusalem today and declare how Jerusalem has been amazingly built again, and how those stones at the temple mount wall are still standing. That would be reporting secular facts, and not Bible Scripture.

The Biblical facts are, like with Revelation 11, Jerusalem is a city again for the end, and it reveals another standing Jewish temple there which those in Rev.11:1-2 are worshiping therein, and the Gentiles are given to tread the city for 42 months. And God's two witnesses are to appear there and prophesy for 1260 days and then be killed with their dead bodies left in the street for 3.5 days, and then they ARISE to the shock of all that see it! You gonna' try and say all that happened in 69 A.D. with the Romans? Of course that would be lie if you did say it.

8. Your trying to bring up Romans 9 with OT vs NT comparisons is off topic, because what the orthodox Jews believe and what we as Christian believers is two different things, even according... to God's Word. Romans 11 is where you should have concentrated on if you wanted to bring up such subjects, because that is where Paul show God put blindness upon Israel in part that makes them enemies of The Gospel, and that is how it will be until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. So it sounds like you're the one who needs lessons on what all Paul was teaching in the Book of Romans.

9. Your metaphorical destruction of Jerusalem at Jesus' cross is ludicrous also, just more ignorant traditions of men by those not given to understand many things in God's Word. Those you listen to can't really teach beyond the basic Gospel, so they have to make things up when they get into sections of Bible prophecy and Bible history. Sad, very sad.

You cannot... omit Revelation 11:1-2, nor Ezekiel 40 thru 47 about that future temple, just because our Lord Jesus proclaimed Jerusalem would be destroyed at one point in history. Go to Google maps and look up the city of Jerusalem today, and try and tell me it's not there any more. Also try to tell me there is no type of religious structure upon the temple mount, like the Dome of the Rock. (No, it's not a Jewish temple that is going to be rebuilt there).

You should also try studying Jeremiah 24 and 1 Kings 11 about God's promise to David, and to Jerusalem, and to Judah involving Jerusalem. Oh... and Israel became a nation again in 1948 by U.N. Charter vote. The U.S. voted 'for' it. So your traditions of men are way... behind reality.


15
End Times Forum / Re: The Plan For A New Jerusalem Temple
« on: Mon Mar 06, 2017 - 12:44:04 »
Brethren, don't listen to those who claim things like the mere existence of another Jewish temple in Jerusalem today would be the "abomination of desolation" of the Book of Daniel. Those are doctrines of men and they don't have a clue as to what the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is about.

Dan 11:30-31
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV


That specific underlined Scripture is what the "abomination of desolation" is about that our Lord Jesus warned of in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. It requires a standing... Jewish temple in Jerusalem for it to be fulfilled. It involves SPIRITUAL desolation by the placing of an idol abomination in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem that the Jews will build for the end of this world.

This "vile person" in that Daniel 11 chapter that causes the placing of that abomination idol represents the coming Antichrist our Lord Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:23-26, and through John in Revelation 13.

Per history (see the Jewish historian Josephus), in 170-165 B.C., Antiochus IV seized Jerusalem with an army, went inside the Jewish temple and sacrificed swine upon the altar and spread its broth inside the temple. Then he placed an idol abomination in the temple to pagan Zeus worship and commanded all to bow in worship to it. But our Lord Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" about 200 years later in His Olivet discourse, which means for us to look for another at the end of this world.

You will notice those who think the "abomination of desolation" means a destruction of the temple in 69 A.D. by the Romans simply slide right over these facts of history about Antiochus IV, and that Jesus warned of the "abomination of desolation" long after Antiochus IV had been dead. They do the same with that Daniel 11 evidence of what the "abomination of desolation" is actually about, i.e., the placing of an idol abomination inside a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem.


16
End Times Forum / Re: A Warning To America
« on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 12:54:11 »
When the pseudo-Christ appears in Jerusalem, then something more dangerous than what Ruth Graham says is going to happen to every living soul on earth that's about to make a choice as to who and what they worship.

Because some... of us believers on Christ will refuse to bow in worship to the coming pseudo-Christ and his image, because we know who he really will be, that will be enough for others to have us delivered up to councils and the synagogue of Satan. Yet Jesus said those who lose their life for His sake and the Gospel's will save it, and those who seek to save their life will lose it (Mark 8:35).

17
End Times Forum / Re: The Plan For A New Jerusalem Temple
« on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 12:39:40 »
The teaching that the "man of sin" (the Antichrist) of 2 Thess.2 is already... sitting in the "temple of God" today is a false... teaching. It is an idea completely OUT OF THE BIBLICAL CONTEXT of 2 Thessalonians 2, and is a doctrine of men.

Apostle Paul's phrase, "the temple of God" in 2 Thess.2:4 is NOT... about Christ's spiritual temple in Heaven. The spiritual temple of Ephesians 2 is based on the foundation of the prophets and Apostles, and our Lord Jesus as The Chief Cornerstone. It is impossible... for them to be corrupted by the Antichrist. Anyone saying it is possible is directly implying that we have no Salvation in Christ Jesus and is a liar.

The crept in unawares of Jude 1 have crept into many Christian pulpits today, and at times preach obvious blasphemy that only a true Bible student of The Holy Spirit would recognize. But recognizing this matter is easy, as all one need do is simply read what Christ's Apostles wrote about the spiritual temple idea and know that it cannot ever be corrupted by the devil nor any of his servants.

The "temple of God" that the "man of sin" will come to sit in per Apostle Paul is about a literal physical Jewish temple in Jerusalem. It is the "holy place" our Lord Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 when warning about the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel. Per Daniel 8 & 11, for the "abomination of desolation" to happen it requires a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Antiochus IV is the blueprint for it, as he almost fulfilled it back in history).

In the Book of Daniel, the "little horn" is to exalt himself above God and speak blasphemies against Heaven. In Revelation 13 we are shown the "dragon" doing the same thing, and the "dragon" is another title for Satan himself per Rev.12:9.


18
End Times Forum / Re: Are The End Times Meeting Your Expectations?
« on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 03:39:30 »
“However, chapter 12 of 2 Ezra is now pending the execution there of.”

There are some other prophecies that have also been fulfilled such as,


Acts 2:17
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.”

Not fulfilled yet. See Matthew 10 and Matthew 24:9-14 and Revelation 6:9-11.

Peter quoted from Joel 2 in Acts 2. Go study the Joel 2 prophecy more, because it is about the tribulation timing. The main purpose for the manifesting of the cloven tongue will be for the very end during the tribulation, when some of us will be delivered up, and we will be given to speak by The Holy Spirit. Jesus said to not premeditate what we will say in that "hour", because it won't be us speaking, but The Holy Spirit. All nations will hear it, and it will convict them. Jesus said even the gainsayer won't be able to resist what is said in that hour.

Quote
Daniel 8:23 “in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.”


Daniel 11:21
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.


Daniel 7:25
He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time
(he hasn’t completed the 3 ½ years yet though)


This one I think will be fulfilled within the next two months. Probably by the end of March though.
Daniel 9:27
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [seven years] In the middle of the 'seven' [3 ½ years] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

All of those Daniel Scriptures have yet to be fulfilled. One Antiochus IV in 170-165 B.C. almost fulfilled it by seizing Jerusalem, and going inside the temple and sacrificing swine on the altar and spreading its broth inside the temple. And then he placed an idol abomination in Zeus worship in that temple demanding all to bow to it. Yet Antiochus was already dead when our Lord Jesus warned about the "abomination of desolation" in Jerusalem from the Book of Daniel. Wait for another in our near future to fulfill it, i.e., the coming Antichrist that will appear in Jerusalem.

19
For many years I believed that a rapture would happen. I mostly was concerned for my mother because she has been through an inordinate amount of suffering in her life (more than most, like Nazi holocaust level suffering) and so I assumed that God would remove her before the Tribulation occurred if it occurred within her lifetime. I believed it because so many Christians do so I thought it was a given. I didn’t see myself as someone who would be taken because, somehow, in my thinking I thought that it wasn’t just about Christians being taken but that it was certain Christians who would be. I thought that the ones who would be taken were people who had suffered greatly already and had achieved a higher state spiritually-people who were more enlightened and that if they were left here, it would be both redundant and cruel. I did not see myself as someone who has achieved that status.

Recently, I started talking to some people online about the rapture and found out that now, there are all these different beliefs attached to it. Some believe in a pre-trib rapture, some a mid, some an end-trib rapture and some believe in all three. Then I started looking up information about the rapture online and discovered that the rapture came from a theologian named John Nelson Darby. In his researching of the Bible, he found certain scriptures that sound as if it is describing an event where people are taken before the Tribulation. This was in the 1830s. It has stuck since that time but I also found that the scriptures he is getting this from, he is simply misinterpreting their meanings. Because of discovering this information and because of what is happening in the world right now, I seriously doubt that a rapture will take place (I actually think it is now too late and should have occurred already if it were going to) and even though I would like to be taken, I am more upset that my mother won’t be. She has already learned all she could (at least I feel that way) learn from suffering. All I can do is have faith that God knows what he is doing and that she will be taken care of in the way he feels is most important.

....

The word 'rapture' is not written in The Bible. The rapturist gets from the Latin translation of Greek harpazo, which means to literally seize. Greek harpazo is the word used for "caught up" in the KJV Bible.

2 Corinthians 12 and Acts 8 with Philip are the main examples we have in God's Word to go by.

Acts 8:39-40
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
KJV


The "caught away" phrase is Greek harpazo. As soon as Philip had baptized the Ethiopian, God caught away Philip to another location on earth. Philip did not die, nor was he changed in any way for God to do that.

The other main example of harpazo was by Paul:

2 Cor 12:2-4
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV

Per Acts 14, Paul was once stoned and assumed dead, and the Apostles stood over him and Paul arose. So most likely the above description of the one caught up was about Paul himself; he was being modest.

What was 'caught up' to Paradise in Paul's example? We know Philip was merely transported on earth while in his flesh to another location. But in Paul's case, something else was "caught up".

There are several examples in the OT Books of the prophets, especially Ezekiel, and how The Spirit took hold of them and transported their spirit by vision to another locale, or heavenly scene (see Ezek.3, & 8, and 40). Paul didn't know whether he was 'in the body' or 'out of the body' when caught up to Paradise.

Per the story of Lazarus and the rich man which Jesus gave per Luke 16, the location of Biblical Paradise is in the heavenly dimension, not our earthly dimension. So what part of Paul's being was "caught up" to that location?

With many NDE's (near death experience), people have reported how during surgery they somehow found themselves out of their body and above near the ceiling looking down on their flesh body on the operating table and doctors, nurses, etc. They mentioned not feeling any pain, and their not being able to communicate with those in the room. This kind of thing scares many people, but plenty of doctors have reports of it from some of their patients.

That's not something we should be scared about, but we should understand it. Per God's Word, we are not just a flesh body. God made us with a spirit inside our flesh body that at flesh death a "silver cord" is severed, releasing our flesh back to the ground where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it (Eccl.12:5-7). Obviously, the one Paul said was "caught up", their "silver cord" was not severed, and was thus revived.

This shows us how to interpret the "caught up" of 1 Thessalonians 4 about our gathering to Christ Jesus at His 2nd coming. Per that Jesus descends to this earth, bringing the "asleep" saints with Him, and then those of us still alive are "caught up" with them in the clouds.

Will that be like the Acts 8 example with Philip? Partially. Being seized (harpazo) and transported to another location is involved with the future 1 Thess.4 event.

And will that future event be like Paul's in 2 Cor.12? Yes, more so. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul defined the resurrection body being a "spiritual body". And he revealed that on the "last trump" we alive shall be "changed" "at the twinkling of an eye", suggesting that our flesh shell will immediately be cast off, revealing our "spiritual body".

That is what God's Word teaches on that matter.




20
End Times Forum / Re: The Plan For A New Jerusalem Temple
« on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 02:53:00 »
dpr, have you ever read the Talmud?   This is a collection of pornographic writings which the Jews follow as rabbinic oral teachings.  It is ranked higher than the Torah.  These ideas promoted about Gentiles being a secondary people are influenced by the Talmud.   

Did you know that the rabbi's taught that Jesus should be boiled in his own ____?   Did you know that if a Gentile is accidentally killed by a Jew it does not matter?   Did you know that if a Jew is accused of some offense there needs to be at least two witnesses to attest this, but only one witness is needed to attest to a Gentile's guilt?   

The Old Testament reveals that Messiah would be rejected.   So, the Jews had already deserted Temple worship, for the most part, and no longer respected the Temple as God's holy place.   They had begun a system of rabbinical Judaism with synagogues in most of the larger cities.   Jesus said that they had turned His Father's house into a den of thieves.  Just how is a man of sin going to defile a Temple built by a people who have rejected Messiah and are still waiting for a political leader?   Have you ever done a Google search of anti-Zionism? I have and I found that most of the web sites promoting this are run by Jews who are more interested in how Jews are affecting the world on a global basis than their trying to hold on to some real estate in the Middle East at the expense of the antisemitism that they create for themselves.   Dispensationals - and I know because I was one for 40 years - are always telling us what the Jews believe and what the Jews want and expect, but they have never actually looked into the subject but take the word of people like John Hagee or Hal Lindsey who have changed their positions as often as some change their Depend underwear.

God has created One New Man in Jesus Christ.   The Bible's main theme is the redemption of mankind, ALL of mankind. Christ's shed blood is one blood for one people. This probably will have no affect on you.  It's as tough to witness to a Dispensational as it is to witness to any people who separate themselves as though they have some unique view of the Scriptures.   We all know, don't we, that only Dispensationals interpret the Bible literally?

I am very aware of all that. I do not listen to Hagee or Hal Lindsey, nor Tim LaHaye, nor do I buy their books. You guys really need to study your Bible more instead of thinking I'm pushing men's doctrines of a pre-trib rapture and Dispensationalism. Do you really think that because I do not agree with men's doctrines of Preterism and Historicism then it must mean I'm a Dispensationalist???

The point you are missing about the Jews having fallen into falseness during their Babylon captivity is that they were on the way to that falling away early on, even back in the days of Joshua when God brought the children of Israel into the promised lands. See Judges 2 & 3, and Joshua 9, and 1 Kings 9, for example; and this:

Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV


According to Jude, there are certain men that were ordained to the condemnation of working against The Father and The Son, and Christ's Church. I'm not speaking of all Jews like Martin Luther would include at this point. I'm speaking of the false Jews Jesus pointed out, the Jews who say they are Jews but lie, and are not (Rev.2:9 & 3:9). These that say they are Jews represent the Canaanites of old that crept into Israel's stay, particularly Judah's stay.

Those Canaanite leftovers, some of them becoming Nethinims (temple servants), were allowed to creep into the Levitical priesthood (Ezra 2), and the Kenites of the nations of Canaan became Israel's scribes in charge of keeping God's Holy Writ (1 Chron.2:55). So you tell me; weren't you aware of all that? By that which God revealed in His Word we in Christ should have a deeper understanding of those things of past Bible history, and how the Babylonian Talmud came about as a type of substitute for Torah. The ones who caused it were not true Judah, but foreigners that had crept in, even as it still is today among them.

In the Book of Judges God said He would leave those Canaanite leftovers among Israel to see if they would listen to Him, or not. So who's fault was it that Israel allowed those foreigners to push their pagan ways and religious ideas within the children of Israel, especially after God had warned them about those pagans??? And God even warned Solomon 3 TIMES about it, but Solomon still would not put away his many pagan wives with letting them keep their pagan religions within Israel. So God rent the kingdom from the son of Solomon, and gave ten tribes to one of the sons of Ephraim to reign as king of Israel in the northern city of Samaria.

So this problem of the Jew's allowing the Canaanite crept in unwares to operate among them has been a curse upon them since the days of Joshua. By the time of Christ's 1st coming the crept in unawares would include many of Esau that would become religious Jews, and an Idumean king (Herod) appointed by the pagan Romans.

Yet in final, when Jesus comes again literally on earth to reign over them, as per the last verse of Zechariah 14 which tells us the Canaanite will no more be in the house of God. Until that future casting out, the orthodox Jews are going to remain in deception as to their problem.

Therefore, don't make the mistake like Luther, et al, of thinking the orthodox Jews will always be our enemy because we have accepted The Gospel. That is going to change, but not until our Lord Jesus returns, and they then will 'know' Him and many of them will then believe on Him like Zechariah 12 shows. It's actually the orthodox Jews that wake up to Jesus being The Christ when He returns that will be wanting for the mountains and hills to fall on them, saying, "Fall on us...", that because of their shame at that time for having rejected Jesus as The Christ.

So until then, the orthodox Jews believe they are still... under the old covenant. And their leaders to include the crept in unawares, are still driving them in that and instead as far away from The Gospel as possible. Because of this, and because of Satan still wanting to be The God, another Jewish temple will... be built in Jerusalem for the end in order for the Antichrist to sit in and fulfill what Paul taught in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.


 

21
End Times Forum / Re: Gog & Magog
« on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 02:12:26 »
Others here still show their obvious ignorance of what Darby's 1800's doctrine of Dispensationalism is about.

I am NOT a Dispensationalist. I do not follow the teachings of men like John Darby. For others to think or say I do shows their ignorance of God's Word as written, revealing how they are following a set of doctrines from men like Darby, just that they are following other men instead of Darby.

Darby's Dispensationalism is simply about God's Plan of Salvation throughout different Bible periods. The Old Testament times involved several different periods, or really generations that were before the Promise to Abraham, and then a number of generations after the Promise. Then came Christ's 1st coming and the Jew's rejecting Him and The Gospel, and then The Gospel going to the nations and the start of the western Christian nations. None of those ideas there are false.

Where Darby's Dispensationalism turns into strict doctrines of men is with his false pre-tribulational rapture theory, and false ideas of Christ rapturing the Church to Heaven to reign while the nation of Israel is setup again on earth.

In reality per God's Word, none of Christ's Church are raptured to Heaven. Instead we are gathered by Jesus at His descent to Jerusalem on earth, where He and His elect will reign over a re-established Israel and all nations on earth for 1,000 years prior to the new heavens and a new earth. As per Zechariah 14, even the survivors of those nations who come up against Israel on the last day of this world will be made to come up to Jerusalem once a year to worship The KING, so the wicked are still going to exist during that 1,000 years period, which is why that time is still not God's new heavens and a new earth timing just yet.

So the difference with the gainsayers here is that they really don't even know much about the doctrines they claim to know about, and they are just mouthing fools not really interested in proclaiming The Word of God as written, but are more interested in proclaiming 'their' particular doctrines of men.




22
End Times Forum / Re: Gog & Magog
« on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 01:58:17 »
Trying to treat Apostle Paul's teaching in the Book of Romans as if it applies to all peoples on earth, like even to the 'unbeliever', is a lesson in the futility of men's doctrines. Paul's Epistles are foundational doctrine of Christianity, for believers on Christ Jesus, NOT for unbelieving Jews.

Apostle Paul would NEVER go against our Lord Jesus' warnings about the events to occur on earth leading up to His 2nd coming. That's why Paul ALSO taught many of those same warnings which our Lord Jesus gave us, paralleling the coming of the Antichrist in 2 Thess.2:3-4 which Jesus taught in Matt.24:23-26. By that I have given proof that Paul's teaching agreed with Christ's Olivet discourse, while you have disagreed with both Christ and Paul. So let others be the judge of who the antichrist is here on this forum!


23
End Times Forum / Re: Gog & Magog
« on: Sun Mar 05, 2017 - 01:50:53 »
Ezek 38:19-20
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at My presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
KJV

Zech 14:4
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
KJV


That's what the fall of the 1/10th of the city of Jerusalem will be about according to Revelation 11:13 about the great earthquake there on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

Those who would deny those Scriptures about God shaking this earth on the future day of The Lord when Jesus returns turn to men's teachings instead of what God says as written in His Word.

24
End Times Forum / Re: Gog & Magog
« on: Sat Mar 04, 2017 - 19:23:03 »

dpr~I strongly desire for you to speak one on one with me~I think Matthew 24 would be the perfect place, to begin with, for one's understanding of Christ's last message is extremely critical in understanding eschatology. Once I got Matthew 24 down, then many other truths fell right into place. So, If you like I'll start first. Prove that you are sincere in seeking truth.


So if I refuse your challenge then it will mean something like I am not a sincere seeker of God's Truth? You really shouldn't make such shallow statements. Nor does one offering a debate just up and choose to go first.

Here is my understanding of Matthew 24, also called our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse. It is given in 3 parts, Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, as all 3 must be considered. It is linked to the Book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation and where Apostle Paul warned brethren about the events to come at the end of this world.

Matt 24:1-3
24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."


They sat on the mount of Olives which overlooks the temple mount. His disciples remark about the temple buildings on it and Jesus warns the day is coming when there won't be one stone on top of another standing there. Even today, there are still huge stones standing on top of another there, called the Wailing Wall. The orthodox Jews pray before it daily. The wall was part of the support for the temple mount complex. The Romans in 69 A.D. destroyed the city and the temple buildings, but not that Wailing Wall.

http://images.wisegeek.com/morning-prayers-at-the-western-wall-in-jerusalem.jpg

Therefore, the prophecy our Lord Jesus said for Jerusalem of not one stone standing upon another is not yet complete today. It is a type of dual-fulfillment prophecy, similar to the "abomination of desolation" prophecy in Daniel 11, which historically one can easily compare to what Antiochus IV did in 170-165 B.C. Jerusalem, having almost fulfilled Dan.11 to a tee.


Matt.24:3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV


Then His disciples asked Him 'when' that would occur, and what would be the sign of His 2nd coming.

Some abuse that phrase "the end of the world", solely trying to key on the Greek word for "world", which is Greek aion, meaning age. We know Jesus was speaking of the literal end of this world when His 2nd coming will happen. In Matthew 13:39-43 He used the same idea of the end of the world (aion) when He spoke of the Harvest at the end of this world. So we can be sure Matt.24:3 is also speaking of the literal end of this world, especially since they asked Him about the time of His 2nd coming, which the Christian Church for over 2,000 years has agreed will occur on the very last day of this present world as written (here at Matt.24:29-31 for one example).

In the next Matthew 24 verses Jesus gives seven main signs for the very end of this world leading up to His 2nd coming. They parallel the events of the Seals of Revelation 6. I will draw that parallel here to include Mark 13.

1st SIGN:

Matt 24:4-8
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you.


That is our Lord Jesus' very first warning, and sign, i.e., deception by some man proclaiming that He has come (same as in Mark 13:5 and Luke 21:8).

The Revelation 6:1-2 Seal of the rider on the white horse is the parallel. In Revelation 6:1 we are not told which Seal that is; it is assumed to be the first Seal. The rider wields a bow of cheap fabric per the Greek, and he has a victory wreath as a crown upon his head. Per Revelation 19, our Lord Jesus returns upon a white horse, and wields a sword that cuts both ways, and on His head are many crowns. We are to contrast these two descriptions and realize this one in Revelation 6:1-2 is the cheap 'knock off', i.e., the "another Jesus" Paul hinted at in 2 Corinthians 11.

If you are not aware there is a fake Jesus coming first at the end of this world, before the true 2nd coming of our Lord Jesus, then you are way behind in Bible prophecy for the end of this world, for that is what this contrast here is about between Rev.6:1-2 and Rev.19.


5 For many shall come in My name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many.


This is part of the 1st Seal also, and is the idea of another trying to deceive others into believing they are our Lord Jesus. With this warning our Lord Jesus is warning of "many" trying to play Him. But in Matthew 24:23-26 He is speaking of a singular coming false one that could, if it were possible, deceive even His very elect servants.

2nd SIGN:

Matt.24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Our Lord Jesus then warned about hearing of wars and rumours of wars, but what did He prescribe? He said don't be troubled at that, for that must happen, but the end is not... yet, meaning what? Many preachers I've heard simply leave that last phrase out of, "but the end is not yet".

The idea is that as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, the very end of this world is not yet. What kind of time then is the opposite... of wars and rumors of wars? The opposite is a time of world peace. These seven signs our Lord Jesus is giving here in Matthew 24 are for the very end of this world, which will be a time of world peace. This is also what Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 5 when he said that when they shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. So our Lord Jesus gave us a major sign with this Matt.24:6 verse, because when the time of world peace comes with all wars and rumors of wars having stopped, then you know His enemy has finally taken complete control over the whole earth, something we still have yet to see in our time.


7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.


This Matt.24:7 verse goes with the previous 6th verse about wars and rumors of wars. They both parallel the 2nd Seal of Revelation 6:3-4 about the one on the red horse, a war horse. These events for the end are only the beginning of sorrows. They are not the time of the actual "great tribulation" which Jesus warns of later here.

These events of wars and famines, earthquakes, pestilences in Matthew 24:6 & 7 actually are covered in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Seals of Revelation 6:

Rev 6:3-8
3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.


Matt.24:6, Mark 13:7, Luke 21:9, and the above already covered the red war horse and wars and rumors of wars events.

3rd SIGN:

Rev.6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


The 3rd Seal is about a time of famine, which parallels the events of Matt.24:7 famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, etc. A measure of wheat for a penny is equivalent to working all day just to buy a loaf of bread. That's what the balances here is about. But notice it says to not hurt the oil and the wine? What are those symbols for in God's Word? The wine is a symbol for God's Truth, and the oil is a symbol for The Holy Spirit. God's Message in that is that He will not let His Truth wain for His servants during that time, nor will The Holy Spirit leave us in that time.

4th SIGN:

Rev.6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
KJV


This also is part of that time of the beginning of sorrows per Matt.24:6 through 8. "Death" is the name of the rider on this pale horse. Who would have a proper name like "Death"? Satan of course, the one to whom the power of death has been assigned. "Hell" follows with him. And power is given to "them" over the fourth part of the earth to kill with 1) sword, 2) hunger, 3) with death, 4) with the beasts of the earth.

Remember, Jesus has not warned of the "great tribulation" just yet here. He has only warned of the "beginning of sorrows". These events so far have been happening in our generation today. They really picked up in the 19th & 20th centuries, especially when Israel became a nation again in 1948. We have not reached that event when we no longer hear of wars and rumors of wars though, which will be a time of 'world peace'.

What movements exist today that want world peace? One of the largest factions is the United Nations organization, which is actually the reason they claim for their existence. World Communism also has claims to world peace when their so-called 'Revolution' is finally over. We can hear the same rhetoric from world Socialists, both Eastern and Western Socialists. So the Bible student should not be ignorant of these world movements, because they will set the stage for the very end of this world when they shall proclaim Paul's time of "Peace and safety" (1 Thess.5:3).

In that same respect, these 4 things on the 4th Seal that Satan and his servants are given to kill with involve the apparatus used by the movers and shakers of the world peace movement. Their powers are divided up into 4 main categories: 1) sword = military, 2) hunger = world commerce (the balances, remember?), 3) with death = religion (spiritual death which is worse than flesh death), 4) beasts of the earth = not literal animals, but by the "brute beasts" Peter warned of, the children of darkness, the devil's own servants that hide behind the scenes and create havoc.

5th SIGN:

Matt 24:9-14
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
KJV


All these Matt.24:9-14 events are tied to the Revelation 6:9-11 verses about the 5th Seal when many of Christ's servants will be delivered up to be killed as the slaughtered servants were in past history. This will begin when the NWO system finally comes to complete power and the deceived proclaim "Peace and safety".

This "witness" is the "testimony" of Rev.6:9 they give to all nations with The Holy Spirit speaking through them by the cloven tongue, the same cloven tongue that was manifest on Pentecost in Acts 2. Peter quoted from Joel 2 about it, and Joel 2 is about events for the very end of this world just prior to the day of The LORD (i.e., Christ'
s 2nd coming). In Matthew 10, Jesus tells His on that day to not premeditate what they will speak, but to speak whatever The Holy Spirit gives them to speak. This Testimony for Christ will be heralded to all nations at the end of this world during this time of being delivered up. Every brother and sister in Christ Jesus should be aware of this.


6th SIGN:

Matt 24:15-22
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV


When the "abomination of desolation" is setup in Jerusalem for the end, that is what events these verses are about, and is the actual start of the "great tribulation" events. Why not the previous events also?

It's because the worst thing that can happen in that time is not... flesh death, but spiritual death. And the way spiritual death will come is by deception in that time to a false one, thinking that false one is our Lord Jesus when it will not be. That is why our Lord Jesus' very 1st Sign here was to not allow any man to deceive us, and the 1st Seal was about a fake Christ riding on a white horse like how our Lord Jesus returns.

This is the time when Archangel Michael will make a 'stand' in Heaven and war against Satan and his angels as per Revelation 12:7 forward, and they are then cast out of Heaven down to this earth, de facto, here in person, and go to persecute Christ's Church who keep God's commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV


This event in bold is about Satan and his angels being cast down to this earth at the very end of this world to begin the time of "great tribulation". In Daniel 7 thru 11 we are told the end of this world will involve a symbolic period of "one week" equaling 7 years, and in the middle of that 7 years the "vile person" or "little horn" will end the daily sacrifices and instead place an idol abomination in the holy place at Jerusalem. That is what our Lord Jesus is warning of here in Matthew 24 at this point.

The 6th Seal about stars falling to earth as a fig tree that casts her untimely figs is about the idea of a winter fig. In fig horticulture the winter fig grows in winter but fall off in the spring. It represents the fake and not the true. Here it parallels the appearance of the Antichrist in Jerusalem for the end of this world and his placing of an abomination idol in the holy place at Jerusalem. At then end of Rev.13 it's called the "image of the beast" which all will be commanded to bow in false worship to.

Thus the pseudo-Christ, which Jesus is getting ready to mention in the next Matthew 24 verses, is coming on the 6th Seal.

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV


Many preachers fail to notice that section of Matt.24 Scripture is about a singular false one, not the many who say they are Christ back in the 5th verse. The KJV phrase "false Christs" is actually the Greek word pseudochristos which means 'a pseudo-Christ' or a fake Christ. Our Lord Jesus is talking about the "vile person" of Daniel 11 here, the one who causes the "abomination of desolation" idol to be setup in Jerusalem. That's why this same description of one who is to come working those "great signs and wonders" is also shown in 2 Thessalonians 2 by Paul, and in Revelation 13:11 forward through Apostle John.

7th SIGN:

Matt 24:27-36
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Just as we can see lightning shine from east to west, that is how obvious to all on earth our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming will be. No one will have to come up to you and say, "Lo, here is Christ, or there". All nations on earth will see His coming in the clouds.

This example of the gathering of His saints is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints in heaven that had already died. In the Mark 13 example He shows the gathering of His saints that will be still alive on earth. So His Olivet discourse follows exactly what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the events of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church of asleep saints, and His Church still alive on earth at His return.

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV


The wicked on earth definitely will not see Christ nor our Heavenly Father in Heaven until the veil of flesh is removed from off all men on the last day of this world by God's consuming fire. That is when these above Rev.6 verse will occur, and is why those will wish for the mountains and rocks to fall upon them because of Christ suddenly appearing in the clouds at His return.

So there it is, the SEVEN SIGNS of the END that Jesus gave His servants to be watching leading up to His 2nd coming. They are a direct parallel to the Seals of Revelation 6, showing further that He was teaching His disciples and US, about the events for the end of this world leading up to His 2nd coming.



25
End Times Forum / Re: The Plan For A New Jerusalem Temple
« on: Wed Mar 01, 2017 - 08:21:45 »
You should interpret God's Word as written with two or more Scripture witnesses and not lean to your own understanding.

Just because only 1/10 of Jerusalem will fall per Rev.11, in your own mind you still want to infer that the Revelation Babylon title does not apply to Jerusalem when it does, and that's the whole point of things like "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" being repeated again in Rev.14 & 18. Thus you have not stayed with what the Scriptures are witnessing. And the likely cause are the doctrines of men you instead are heeding.

26
End Times Forum / Re: The Plan For A New Jerusalem Temple
« on: Wed Mar 01, 2017 - 08:04:52 »
Rev 18:20-24
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
KJV



Since the Babylon harlot label is a metaphorical title applied to Jerusalem for the end, much as Sodom and Egypt are also applied spiritually to Jerusalem in Revelation 11:8, there is no other way to interpret the fall in Rev.18 than also to mean the fall of the false system over her that will cause Jerusalem's captivity by Satan for the end of this world, just prior to our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming.

Rev 14:8
8 And there followed another angel, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
KJV

Rev 18:2-3
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
KJV



That exact phrase, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" was said at the fall of the literal city of Babylon in ancient history when the Persians conquered it and destroyed its idols. Yet here again in Revelation, a Book given by our Lord Jesus through John to the Churches, this "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" is said again. Will the literal city of Babylon rise again and be destroyed again? No. But with what the old Babylon represented applied spiritually to Jerusalem for the end of this world, yes, that Babylon is to rise again, and not just rise, but take over the very city where our Heavenly Father has chosen to put His Name and dwell forever.

Not only this, but the one who is coming to cause today's Jerusalem to fall into that will be Satan himself, in person, on this earth. This is a point that many are missing from God's Word because of the doctrines of men. The "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward will speak as a dragon because he is the dragon, which is another title for Satan himself per Rev.12:9. Revelation 13 shows that the dragon will be worshipped and will be over all nations and peoples for the end. In Jerusalem is where he will do that, disguised as Messiah. This is why Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 11 said to beware of the "another Jesus", and that Satan disguises ("transforms"=disguise in the Greek) himself as an angel of light. Our Lord Jesus also warned us in John 14:30 that "... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me."

This is why the coming tribulation warned of in Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 will be a time on earth that has never been the like ever before, nor ever will be again. It's because at the war in Heaven between Michael and Satan, when it happens in our near future, there will be no more place found in Heaven for Satan and his angels. And that means the Heavenly dimension. There are only 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in, and the Heavenly dimension where God's abode is and also where Satan's abode of hell is in a place of separation. That means when Satan is booted down to this earth as per Rev.12, he is coming here de facto, in person, his image visible for all to see. In Ezekiel 28, God showed that He created Satan the full pattern, meaning the full pattern of God's Image, so Satan doesn't have horns and a pitchfork; he is a beautiful cherub with the image of man God created him and all the angels with.

Ancient Sumer-Babylon is where the very first idol religion and devil worship began in this world's history. So Babylon is a fitting title for what Satan is going to setup in Jerusalem for the end of this world, for that is who the coming Antichrist will be, literally and not just spiritually possessing some flesh man's body.

27
End Times Forum / Re: Gog & Magog
« on: Wed Mar 01, 2017 - 07:22:04 »
Ezekiel 44 has descriptions of those who erred standing in judgment during that time, which is proof the time of Ezekiel 40 through 48 is not new heavens, and new earth timing, but a time prior to that.

Revelation 22:14-15 is showing the same kind of picture, with those inside the gates of the holy city that have right to the tree of life, while the wicked are dwelling outside the gates. That is another proof that Christ's 1,000 years Millennium reign of the future is literal and will occur at His 2nd coming but before the new heavens and new earth.

28
Theology Forum / Re: Replacement Theology is an abomination.
« on: Tue Feb 28, 2017 - 11:35:04 »

Let's look at what Supersessionism is, and what it means for Israel.

  • Supersessionism is the idea that physical Israel is no longer Israel; that the Church is now Israel.
  • God is done with them, they are abandoned.
  • The Jews are now cursed as a people.
  • They no longer have any promises -- all their promises are now promises of the Church.

There is no question that there are Christians today who hold these views who are not antisemite. There are Christians today who are opposed to the Jewish State of Israel who are not antisemite. The question is not whether Supersessionism always produces antisemitism, but rather if it is nevertheless a causative agent. No one ever asks if cigarette smoking causes cancer in every smoker, yet we know that smoking causes lung cancer.

There is absolutely no question that this sort of teaching, that God is done with Israel, that its promises no longer exist, that it is a cursed people, opened the door for horrific antisemitism in the Church.

Let's look at some of the major Christian antisemites, and the reasons they give for their beliefs.
....

Those of Christendom in the past that were vehemently anti-Semitic because of Jews having killed our Lord Jesus simply did not understand God's Word on the matter to the depth required.

1. Firstly, the Jews represented only a part of the total peoples of Israel according to Bible history. The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said those of the "house of Judah" (3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and strangers with them) that returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years captivity to Babylon began using the title of Jew. The ten tribes of the "house of Israel" were already gone, have been removed out of the holy lands about 120 years prior to Judah's captivity to Babylon. And the ten tribes were thus never known as Jews. Josephus said the title of Jew originates from the name Judah.

2. Long ago in Bible history, like in Judges 2 & 3 after Israel was not able to destroy all the peoples of the nations of Canaan which God had commanded them, God said He would leave those Canaanites among Israel to test Israel. In Joshua 9, because of Israel destroying some of the Canaanites, a group of Canaanites hid their identity and acted like they had come from a far country, their clothes tattered and food spoiled. So Joshua agreed to make a pact with them to take them aboard among them. Then they were discovered to be Canaanites, but it was too late, Joshua had made an oath with them. Thus they became bondservants in Israel. In 1 Kings 9, they are still dwelling among Israel as bondservants in Solomon's days.

3. Per Ezra 2, some of the priests that returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years captivity were not of Israel. The Nethinims specifically were temple servant foreigners, which was not supposed to be allowed in the temple. By the time of Nehemiah, the Nethinims dwelt at Ophel in the city of David (Neh.3). By the time of Christ many of these old bondservants of the Canaanites had become priests again like they were before the Babylon captivity. Ezra 8 reveals many of Judah's leaders had taken wives of the Canaanites during the Babylon captivity.

4. The scribes which sought somewhat against our Lord Jesus were the Kenites, a people that dwelt among the Canaanites and were not born of Israel (1 Chronicles 2:55; Gen.15:19). Foreigners thus had control of God's Word from generation to generation, and the corruptions that became the Babylonian Talmud during Judah's captivity to Babylon.

5.  By the time of Jesus' 1st coming, even the high priest was taken over by a foreigner not of the seed of Israel (per Josephus' histories).

6. Jesus' strongest rebuke of those against Him was actually to that specific generation of vipers not born of Israel that had crept in among the "house of Judah" way back in its history. In Revelation 2 & 3 Jesus called them the "synagogue of Satan". He was not pointing all Jews with that. He was pointing specifically to the Canaanite foreigners that worked their way into the priesthood and in the scribe positions.

7. The last verse of Zechariah 14, when Jesus takes His literal reign on earth, says then there will be no more the Canaanite in the house of God.


29
End Times Forum / Re: Gog & Magog
« on: Tue Feb 28, 2017 - 11:02:12 »
Thinking the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20 is the same Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38 is confusion.

The Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters are Millennium and thereafter chapters that have never happened yet.

Ezekiel 47 is a key chapter about the Millennium, as it contains an undeniable description of God's River of the waters of life mentioned in Revelation 22. Ezekiel 47 also describes the tree of life on each side of that River, with its leaves for medicine which Revelation 22 also describes.

Ezekiel 47 reveals the literal physical location of God's River of the waters of life and the tree of life with two areas in the middle east.

Therefore, those who deny those Bible Scriptures as being still future are charlatans and liars.

30
End Times Forum / Re: Gog & Magog
« on: Tue Feb 28, 2017 - 00:27:15 »
The nation alignment given with Russia are:
1. Libya (obvious today),
2. Persia (representing Iran, Iraq, and probably Syria),
3. Gomer (representing the old Russian satellite nations above Persia, like Georgia, etc.
4. Ethiopia (representing Sudan, which used to be part of ancient Ethiopia, and it is definitely allied with Russia today),
5. Togarmah (old Cappodocia, which Turkey today makes up a lot of that area today).

By the alignment with Russia of those above areas today (except Togarmah, represented by Turkey today), it is very, very easy to know that Russia is represented as the Gog and Magog of Ezek.38. Russia is the main supporter of Iran, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Lebanon Hezbolla, Georgia, etc.

Because of Islamic radicals today, Turkey's government is now in danger, and along with the other Islamic radical nations, could become aligned with Russia also.


Anatoliy Golitsyn, an ex-KGB colonel of the 1960's that defected to the U.S. also warned of Russia for the latter days, in his 1984 book New Lies For Old. He showed that Communist Russia would be in its 3rd phase of its disinformation strategy against the Western nations if it was time to allow the Berlin Wall to come down. He said that in 1984.


31
End Times Forum / Re: The New World Order
« on: Mon Feb 27, 2017 - 07:35:23 »
You are simply misguided on some of that.

Revelation 21 is not... about the New World Order idea.

At the last verse of Revelation 17 we are told the Babylon harlot is "a city". It can represent many of the things you have said about it, but Jesus wanted us to understand it's a certain city for the end that will represent the Babylon harlot. That city will be today's Jerusalem on earth. That is where Rev.11 is pointing to.

God showed us in Genesis 3:15 that we are in spiritual battle for this world against Satan's seed, his children. Our Lord Jesus reminded us of this again in His explanation of His parable of the tares of the field in Matthew 13. So of course this world is corrupt and there is a plan by Satan's host to create a one world government system over all nations and peoples. God has ordained it for the end, but it is not His Kingdom. God has ordained it to occur as a test to see who is going to follow Him, or not.


32
End Times Forum / Re: Gog & Magog
« on: Sat Feb 25, 2017 - 16:43:51 »
Saturday, May 24, 2008
The Identity of Gog and Magog
At the culmination of the Millennium, Satan is released and deceives the nations into attacking Jerusalem. These nations are subsequently consumed by fire from God.

Reve 20:8 And [Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
Reve 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

These scriptures, along with several others in Revelation [Rev 19: 17-18], seem to be an obvious reference to Ezekiel 38-39.

Ezek 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

Ezek 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel…
Ezek 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

Ezek 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that [is] with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, … (cf: Rev 19:17-18)

Ezek 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog (Rev 20:9), …


For the futurist, the identity of Gog and Magog can be very confusing. I say this being an ex-futurist. The reason is because most futurists believe the battle of Gog & Magog will occur AFTER the Millennium after the “second

I don't claim to be a Futurist, that's just a label by men.

The Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38 represents the nation of Russia at the end of this present world. Moscow and Toblisk comes from Meshech and Tubal. Translation of "the chief prince" in Ezek.38:2 is prince of Rosh, or Rhos, which comes from the Septuagint Bible. That is what the Scythian Tauri in the Crimea were called. Thus, the event of Gog and Magog written in Ezekiel 38 is for the time at the end of our world, on the day of Christ's 2nd coming (i.e., on the "day of the Lord").

The nation alignment given with Russia are:
1. Libya (obvious today),
2. Persia (representing Iran, Iraq, and probably Syria),
3. Gomer (representing the old Russian satellite nations above Persia, like Georgia, etc.
4. Ethiopia (representing Sudan, which used to be part of ancient Ethiopia, and it is definitely allied with Russia today),
5. Togarmah (old Cappodocia, which Turkey today makes up a lot of that area today).

The only nation in that today not yet allied with Russia is Turkey, which is a member of NATO. But Turkey is primarily an Islamic nation of Muslims. It is one place to be watching in our times.

When Ezekiel 39 comes to pass, that is when Jesus' 2nd coming will occur. The Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters are future Millennium chapters and thereafter.


The Gog and Magog at the end of Revelation 20 represents a second gathering of the peoples against Christ Jesus led by the Devil himself. Just as Russian Communism is strongly anti-religion and thus like the antichrist, Gog and Magog after Christ's Millennium reign will serve as a final gathering of the peoples of antichrist and God will end their existence on earth just prior to His Great White Throne Judgment, and the end of the abode of hell and all wicked.

So the difference between the Ezek.38 Gog and Magog, and the Rev.20 Gog and Magog, is that the first example gives us explicit nation alignments of an army out of the northern quarters that will come upon today's nation of Israel on the last day of this present world when Jesus comes with His army to fight against them. With the second example in Rev.20, it is about Satan gathering his followers of the nations which will have dwelt outside the 'beloved city' and "camp of the saints" on earth at Jerusalem, and he will lead those nations to come up against that "camp of the saints", and God will rain fire from Heaven like a protecting wall around His saints, and His enemies on earth will be destroyed, including with Satan being cast into the "lake of fire". 

 


33
End Times Forum / Re: Are four beasts in Daniel talking about China?
« on: Sat Feb 25, 2017 - 16:09:23 »
I was not talking about the large statue in Daniel chapter 2. I was talking about 4 beasts in chapter 7.

But you really are... talking about the large statue image of Daniel 2, because that's what the four beast systems point back to. There are 5 parts to that statue image, the 5th part being the feet of ten toes of part iron and part clay. It is the final beast and will manifest at the end of this world, which is actually what the 4th beast of Dan.7 is talking about (involving the ten horns).

The 4th part of the statue was the 'legs of iron' which represented the old pagan Roman empire. The 5th part of the feet contains iron in it too, so there is some type of connection between the old 4th kingdom of Rome with the final beast kingdom at the end which is to have ten horns with a little horn coming up in power to reign over all. For this reason of the feet having iron in it, some scholars believe the old pagan Roman empire will be revived for the end and will take part in the final beast kingdom of ten horns.

34
End Times Forum / Re: The Plan For A New Jerusalem Temple
« on: Sat Feb 25, 2017 - 15:55:41 »
With men's doctrines, like Amillennialism, which was a later 2nd & 3rd century invention of men, there is always confusion of Bible Scripture that is meant in the spiritual metaphorical sense vs. Scripture meant in the literal sense.

The Babylon of Revelation represents literal Jerusalem on earth in a fallen worship state after being sieged by the coming Antichrist for the end. Jerusalem has been sieged by pagans before in its history something like 27 times. At one point in history it was even renamed after a pagan god. Yet it still exists today, and God even fulfilled His promise to the house of Judah in Jeremiah 24 that He would bring them back to the holy land and never move them out again. That happened in 1948 when Israel became a nation again. This final future siege of Jerusalem by the coming Antichrist for the end is not going to change God's promise that He will dwell at Jerusalem on earth forever.

The label of Babylon applied to the city of Jerusalem in Revelation is a metaphorical title. It is not a literal title, for the literal city of Babylon God had destroyed long, long ago. Sadam Husein of Iraq tried to rebuild the old city of Babylon and failed. God said through His prophet Isaiah that it would never be a great city again. But alas, the old actual city of Babylon is not Jerusalem.

The title of Babylon is only being applied in the spiritual sense to Jerusalem at the end because of how it will be the center of false worship when the Antichrist comes there to sit in another Jewish temple built in these last days.

So to treat the destruction of the metaphorical Babylon of the Book of Revelation as if it means a literal destruction of the city of Jerusalem for the end, that is simply un-Biblical wild speculation with no real substance. This is why anyone can read Rev.11:13 and note that only 1/10 of the city shall fall on the day of Christ's 2nd coming on the 7th Trumpet:

Rev 11:13-15
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
KJV


 

35
The difference between a fleshy body and a spiritual body:

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


The Scripture is simple enough, all one need do is simply read and heed what Paul said. Is it flesh that is raised in power? Is it the natural body that is raised? Is it our flesh that is raised in glory at the resurrection? No. It is our soul with spirit that is raised, not our flesh. Like Eccl.12:5-7 teaches, when the "silver cord" is severed at flesh death, our flesh goes back... to the earth's elements where it originated from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. It is our spirit (with soul) that is raised in power, raised in glory, raised as a "spiritual body". Apostle Paul especially seals this idea in the later 1 Cor.15:50 verse about flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom of God.



1 Cor.15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

A "quickening spirit" is not a flesh body. This is why we are told in Genesis 6:3 that God's spirit would not always strive with man, "for that he also is flesh". So man is flesh and what else? Man has a spirit/soul inside his flesh body. At flesh death, the spirit with soul is quickened, raised in glory and power, raised a "spiritual body".


1 Cor.15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Paul makes it very simple. Our natural body of flesh is our first type of body, but the "spiritual body" will be our resurrection body. That's why he said that as we have borne the "image of the earthy" (a flesh type body), we also will bear the "image of the heavenly" (the "spiritual body").


1 Cor.15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV


Just to make sure we understand that is what Paul's meaning is, he verifies for us that a flesh and blood type body cannot inherit the future kingdom of God.




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