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Messages - lea

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End Times Forum / Re: End Times Question
« on: Today at 17:06:13 »
Hi lea,

I'm not sure what your message means in response to my post. Could you please elaborate further if you were trying to address a point?
Also, are you claiming that Jesus Christ has already returned?
Jesus returned over the skies of Jerusalem during the Roman/Jewish war. Look in the Preterist sub forum for some answers.
God Bless!

End Times Forum / Re: End Times Question
« on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 12:47:56 »
I am pretty sure most Christian believers are not worried about the Antichrist or the tribulation. Our King is in control and will take care of our souls. I am happy, and although you might not be an end time believer, Bible prophecy will be fulfilled, as it is written in the Bible.
The Revelation of Jesus Christ over the skies of Jerusalem showed the tribes of the land proof that Jesus returned and the power of the holy people was shattered.

End Times Forum / Re: End Times Question
« on: Sun Jul 15, 2018 - 12:43:21 »
When Israel completes its 70th year as a nation on May 13th 2019. This is the generation of Jews that Matthew 24 speaks of that will have seen all these things come to pass.


Sorry, this generation is not from the same generation Jesus spoke of.  Stop playing on words- Jesus did not say "that" generation. Whew, so00000 in the past!  Let's get on with good news for believers!

End Times Forum / Re: End Times Question
« on: Thu Jul 12, 2018 - 12:06:59 »
I would say that the next big event, prophetically speaking, is the rise of a one world government. This system will be used by the Antichrist to rule and deceive the whole world.
I'll be enjoying my life as Jesus gave "me" His peace.

Y'all can worry and talk about bad news if you like.

There's no stupid antichrist coming. What a boring story!!

I'm a lot happier than any Futurist!

Get with the Good news!

Theology Forum / Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« on: Tue Jul 10, 2018 - 19:29:09 »
La spino said:
And Lea, my Bible reads, "and those which are alive will also be caught up. Again, not sure what your understanding is of being alive is.

That's right. Those who were alive- heck,we too, will be caught up "raptured" in the same way our dead loved ones were.

When we die.

Didn't Peter say that Paul was sometimes hard to understand?

It took me some time to figure some of his Epistles out. 

3 R's,
Some Preterists think there is a gap and some, like yourself, figure there isn't.

I agree with both and I think the "gap" is symbolic, rather then the literal 490 years.

The time, times, and half time keeps showing up in Scripture just before the "Holy city" is destroyed and the Resurrection of the dead takes place.

Here is an interpretation of Daniel 9 with a gap. Read it when you have time.
God Bless!


Theology Forum / Re: Is the word rapture biblical?
« on: Mon Jul 09, 2018 - 14:20:15 »

The real episode called a "rapture" is at the moment of death, a believer is
"caught up"  to Christ.

The nonsense of the other group rapture alive is mainly because
 1) they do not understand what Paul meant.
2) it sounds like a good idea- not dying and all!

I have no further comment. My view is set in stone.  I shall meet Jesus and my dead loved ones above the clouds when I have finished my journey here.

Joyously. Blissfully.


Who then will be saved?    those who lose their lives for Jesus' sake (Matt. 16:24-25; Jn. 3:16)
   those who believe (Rom. 1:16)
   those who come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4)
   those who obey Jesus (Heb. 5:9)
   those who are in Christ (Eph. 1:3, 7)
   those who have faith from hearing the word of God (Rom. 10:17)
   those who repent (Lk. 13:3)
   those who believe to righteousness and confess with their mouth to salvation (Rom. 10:10, 13)
   those who believe and are baptized (Mk. 16:16)
   those who call on the name of the Lord; repent and are baptized for the remission of their sins (Acts 2:21, 38)
   those who believe on the Lord Jesus and are baptized (Acts 16:30-33)
   those who are baptized, washing away their sins and calling on the Lord (Acts 22:16)
   those who are saved through baptism (1 Pet. 3:21)
   those who endure to the end (Matt. 10:22)
   those who are faithful until death (Rev. 2:10)
Who then shall perish?    those who are fools; they hear the sayings of Jesus but they do not do them (Matt. 7:26-27)
   those who do not believe (Mk. 16:16)
   those who do not repent (Lk.13:3; 2 Pet. 3:9)
   those who have a dead faith (Jas. 2:14-26)
Questions:    Dear friend, will you be saved? Or, will you perish?
   Is your confidence in salvation based upon God's word? Or, is it based upon the opinions and doctrines of men?

So, it is both. With or without baptism.

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [l]desolate.”

Messiah was to be cut off afterthe 69 weeks. After only means after, not at exactly that time, it says after (basically not before, but sometime after.)

Then we can conclude that God measured true worshipers in the temple, and they lived 1,260 days before Titus invaded the temple and put Caesar's bust on the "wing" of the temple. Then he destroyed the temple.

Rev11- 11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. [a]And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Preterist Forum / Re: Believing in lies
« on: Sat Jul 07, 2018 - 10:30:44 »
There is a section in the Pauline Epistles regarding how in later times God would put into action the process of believing in lies.

Also from St. Paul we read about the mass apostasy, how all people would betray the Christ once again.

Jesus has said that these are the days of vengeance, when everything written must be fulfilled.

To say that all things have been fulfilled when, in fact, some things are still being fulfilled is to, at least in part, believe in lies.

We are now less than 204 days from the 2,300th day of Daniel 8:14, Holy Family Saturday, December 29, 2018 A.D.

No amount of discussion, constructive or otherwise, whatever ones beliefs, will change that.

Such is the power of prophecy, interpretation, and fulfillment.

If GraceCentered had shown itself to be grace centered, this post would not have been necessary.
The apostasy was the Jews who hailed Caesar- instead of God, so they wouldn't be killed in the Roman/Jewish war.

4WD, according to you, I was saved only after I was baptized 12 years after accepting Christ!!


Is baptism necessary for salvation? No. Let's examine what the Scriptures teach on this issue:

First, it is quite clear from such passages as Acts 15 and Romans 4 that no external act is necessary for salvation. Salvation is by divine grace through faith alone (Romans 3:22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 30; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9, etc.).

If water baptism were necessary for salvation, we would expect to find it stressed whenever the gospel is presented in Scripture. That is not the case, however. Peter mentioned baptism in his sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38). However, in his sermon from Solomon's portico in the Temple (Acts 3:12-26), Peter makes no reference to baptism, but links forgiveness of sin to repentance (3:19). If baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sin, why didn't Peter say so in Acts 3?

Paul never made water baptism any part of his gospel presentations. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul gives a concise summary of the gospel message he preached. There is no mention of baptism. In 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul states that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel," thus clearly differentiating the gospel from baptism.

Those passages are difficult to understand if water baptism is necessary for salvation. If baptism were part of the gospel itself, necessary for salvation, what good would it have done Paul to preach the gospel, but not baptize? No one would have been saved. Paul clearly understood water baptism to be separate from the gospel, and hence in no way efficacious for salvation.

4WD said,
godsquadgeek, There is not a single verse in the entire NT that says that we are saved by faith alone.  There is only one verse that even mentions "faith alone" and that is James 2:24.  If you haven't come across it yet, you might want to look it up.

I think maybe you should look it up too. Baptism is after salvation. A sacrament or a ritual that pleases God, I believe.

 Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Theology Forum / Re: Did all mankind sin in Adam?
« on: Wed Jul 04, 2018 - 12:12:30 »
I liked your post CHOIR LOFT

I guess mankind was supposed to die physically. I think God knew we needed knowledge of good from evil. God gave us free will perhaps to find out.

Yes, it was disobedience against God's command in the garden. So, I'm thinking man had to die physically so there would be a need for a Savior in God's plans.

Yes, in Christ, we are made righteous, given grace and salvation here and in eternal life.

Even in Hebrews we are called mature, those who have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil.

So, God didn't make puppets. We can live the abundant life here on earth in Christ but even so, we cannot live physically here forever.

We accomplish our God given race in victory. 

I still don't understand why every living thing must die.

Only God knows for sure. 

Theology Forum / Re: Adam & Eve
« on: Fri Jun 08, 2018 - 09:00:26 »
I forgive you for saying I have "false peace."

But I feel sorry for you for not planning something good for the future.
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Thank you Peter- only the faithful are allowed in the kingdom of God- the N.T. church.

Theology Forum / Re: Adam & Eve
« on: Thu Jun 07, 2018 - 20:28:04 »

19 And the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, 20 “Thus says the Lord: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, 21 then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. 22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’ ”

25 “Thus says the Lord: ‘If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26 then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.’ ”Jer.33.

That is the "heaven and earth" Jesus says would pass away. The OC made at Sinai.

Try to understand 1 & 2 Peter. It's in the article I posted. There's peace in knowing that heaven's not going anywhere, and no violent doomsday will come upon my family or others'.  ::smile::

Theology Forum / Re: Safety In The New Covenant
« on: Thu Jun 07, 2018 - 16:48:59 »
notreligius said:

The Jews are still seeking a political Messiah not the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53.

I don't think they are waiting for anyone!! Very secular these days.

Theology Forum / Re: Adam & Eve
« on: Thu Jun 07, 2018 - 16:36:14 »
I found "heaven and earth" in 26 instances in the [NASB] Bible.  I do not see that even one of them is speaking about Israel.

Yes, probably because you don't understand what Jesus meant by "heaven and earth" passing away.

Here's a good study for you. Good luck.


Theology Forum / Re: Adam & Eve
« on: Wed Jun 06, 2018 - 16:47:21 »
Quote from: 4WD on Today at 15:30:53

    I found "heaven and earth" in 26 instances in the [NASB] Bible.  I do not see that even one of them is speaking about Israel.
Another example of "heaven and earth" being referent to the Covenant World of Israel and not literal creation is Isaiah 51:16.

     "I have put my word in your mouth and have covered

     you with the shadow of my hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are my people'". [NASV]

 What is the point? Notice that God is speaking to Israel. He says he gave them his law, the Mosaic Covenant, the same law Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 5:17-18, to establish heaven and lay the foundation of the earth! Clearly Jehovah is not saying he gave the Mosaic Covenant to Israel to create literal heaven and earth! Material creation existed long before Israel was ever given the Mosaic Covenant.

     The meaning of the verse is that Jehovah gave his covenant with Israel to CREATE THEIR WORLD--A COVENANT WORLD WITH JEHOVAH!

     God created Israel's "heaven and earth" by giving them his Covenant. Now if he destroyed THAT Old Covenant heaven and earth and gave a NEW COVENANT, would he not thereby be creating a NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH? This is precisely the thought in the NEW COVENANT SCRIPTURES!

     Old Israel's covenant was about to pass away, II Corinthians 3:10ff; Hebrews 8:13; 12:25ff. The New Covenant of Christ was being given, Ephesians 3:3ff; Hebrews 2:1ff. Since the giving of Covenant created "heaven and earth" the New Heaven and Earth of Christ would not be completed until the New Covenant was completely revealed. It therefore follows that if the New Heavens and Earth of Christ has not arrived then CHRIST'S NEW COVENANT HAS NOT YET BEEN FULLY REVEALED! If Christ's New Covenant has been fully revealed then the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH HAS FULLY COME! Consider this carefully in light of II Peter 3 and Revelation 21-22, passages written as the process of revealing the NEW COVENANT was yet incomplete.

     In Isaiah 51:5-6 God predicted the "heaven and earth" would vanish. This is the same "heaven and earth" he had established at Sinai. This is not a prediction of the passing of literal heaven and earth--it is a prediction of the passing of the Old World of Israel so that the New Covenant World of Messiah would be established. We believe this heaven and earth that Isaiah said would perish is the same heaven and earth Jesus said must pass before the Old Law would pass.

     Isaiah 65-66 also predicted the passing of "heaven and earth" but as with the other prophecies noted above it does not refer to the passing of physical creation. In chapter 65 God predicted that Israel would fill the measure of her sin, vs. 7; he would destroy them, vs. 8-15; create a new people with a new name, vs. 15-16; create a new heaven and earth with a new Jerusalem, vs. 17-19. The creation of the new heavens and earth would follow the destruction of the Jews after they had filled the measure of their sins and been destroyed at the coming of the Lord in fire with his angels, Isaiah 66:15ff. The new creation of Isaiah 66 is depicted as a time of evangelism and Jew and Gentile being brought together under the banner of God, vss 19ff.

     Now Isaiah 65 said the new creation would come when Israel had filled the measure of her sin and was destroyed. Do we have any clue as to when this was to happen?

     In Matthew 23:31-39 Jesus said Israel would fill up the measure of her sins IN HIS GENERATION! In chapter 24 he predicted the passing of Israel's heaven and earth at his coming, vs. 29-36. Now notice:

     1.] Isaiah said Israel's old heaven and earth would not be destroyed until Israel had filled her sin;

     2.] The new heaven and earth would not come until Israel's old heaven and earth was destroyed;

     3.] Jesus said Israel would fill up the measure of her sin and be destroyed at his coming in his generation;

     4.] Therefore Israel's "heaven and earth" was destroyed at Jesus' coming against Israel, when the measure of her sin was full, in that generation.

     In Matthew 24 Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. This Temple was the very center of the Jewish world. This is where the sacrifices for sin were offered by the genealogically confirmed Levitical priests. For Jesus to predict the utter desolation of this temple was the same as saying their world was about to come crashing down around their ears!

     In graphic detail Jesus chronicled the events to occur before that disaster and the signs indicating its imminence, vss. 14-15. In highly apocalyptic, [symbolic] language he described the fall itself:

     "The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory". ~eschatology.com

Theology Forum / Re: Adam & Eve
« on: Wed Jun 06, 2018 - 14:08:40 »
Actually, Jesus did not say that. Here is what he said:

Matthew 5:18.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

You should reread Jesus words in Matthew 5:18 in light of what the letter to the Hebrews says about the law. You should see that "heaven and earth passing away" is not the deciding factor regarding the law, but rather it is the "all being accomplished" that decides.

Concerning the law, there are no more animal sacrifices, no more circumcision of the flesh, no more levitical priesthood. A whole lot more than just one jot or tittle has passed from the law, because all has been accomplished by Christ, thus that body of law has already passed away.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NKJV) "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

You said a lot more than a jot or tittle has passed from the Law- And you said was all accomplished
by Christ. BUT God referred to Israel many times "heaven and earth."

Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but fulfill" - The use of the terms "the law" and "the prophets" indicates that what the Lord is speaking of in these verses is the whole of the Old Testament. If you trace these terms through your Bible, you will find that wherever this expression is used it includes the entire Old Testament:

 Luke 24:44 (NKJV) Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

 The "law of Moses", "the prophets", and "the psalms" speak of the entirety of the Old Testament.

 The phrase "till heaven and earth pass away" refers to the duration of the whole Old Testament's authority. So, Jesus is saying that not a single item of the Law - the Old Testament - will ever be changed until heaven and earth pass away.

So did Jesus fail to fulfill the Law?
That heaven and earth passed away. Not the literal ones but the OC heaven and earth.
21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. (Rev.21:1) emph. mine.

Theology Forum / Re: Adam & Eve
« on: Tue Jun 05, 2018 - 16:19:55 »
notreligius said,
    One day in the future Jesus Christ, the Son of the Triune Godhead, will return and will physically reign over his people on this New Earth.  We will be in an eternal state.    Sickness, disease, wars, and death will be gone.  The wolf will lie down with the lamb.   Satan and his minions will have been totally destroyed.

I disagree. The new heavens and earth is the new covenant. Also, false teachers were referred to as "wolves" or "goats." Men are sometimes referred to as "trees" in scripture. It's figurative language.

     "Think not that I am come to destroy the Law and the Prophets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall pass from the law until all be fulfilled". [Matthew 5:17-18]

     This little tract will attempt to answer a few questions about these verses. First, what did Jesus say had to happen before the law could pass away? Second, does the Bible tell us when these requirements would be met? Let us answer the first question.

     Until Heaven and Earth Pass

     Did you notice that Jesus said heaven and earth had to pass away before the law could pass?!? Yes, he really did say it; please, get your Bible right now and read it for yourself! It has been my experience that a LOT OF PEOPLE have never seen those words before! A relative of mine read the verse five times before admitting it actually says this!

     Has the heaven and earth passed away? Well, obviously, physical heaven and earth haven't been destroyed. But read the text again will you? Jesus DID say until heaven and earth pass away the Old Law could not pass. Our choices here are limited.

     If we understand the "heaven and earth" as literal, physical heaven and earth then this means the Old Law is still in effect. Simply put the argument would go like this: If heaven and earth had to pass before the Old Law could pass; and if heaven and earth refers to literal, physical heaven and earth, then, since literal, physical heaven and earth still exist, [have not passed], it must be true that the Old Law has not passed.
~ Eschatology.com

Theology Forum / Re: Adam & Eve
« on: Tue Jun 05, 2018 - 10:33:33 »
God knew mankind would know the difference between good and evil.
He created the destroyer to show mankind that evil would make us sin against Him.

God knew life for man wouldn't be taken care of as puppets with no free will forever.

Therefore God created the fall of man and nature.

People have been killing each other since the start. And nature has brought mutations even to peaceful people.

Man needed a savior so God could bless them and help them in this fallen world!

Theology Forum / Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
« on: Mon May 28, 2018 - 09:31:12 »
I always wondered about this passage where "those who have done good, to everlasting life........"(emph. mine)

Are these the "good" before Jesus arrived in the 1st century? Because, it seems that the qualification for everlasting life was doing good- whereas we are taught that today being "good" is not enough.
We must believe and have faith in the Son before death
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
“and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

“and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. -Jhn. 5:24-29

Theology Forum / Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
« on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 19:32:37 »
K.S., yes, you know of no evidence that Paul used the Septuagint!

This is the Bible Jesus Used

The Septuagint was the first translation of the Hebrew Bible; and was made in the third century B.C. by Jewish scribes, who were direct descendents of those trained in Ezra's Great Synagogue of Jerusalem. They were complete experts in the text, being very well versed in Hebrew and Greek.

This translation became very popular among Jews in the first two centuries before Christ because many Jews in those days did not understand Hebrew. Their ancestors had left Israel centuries before, and generation after generation gradually lost the ability to read the Scriptures in Hebrew.

Many of the Jews in Jesus' day used the Septuagint as their Bible. Quite naturally, the early Christians also used the Septuagint in their meetings and for personal reading; and many of the New Testament apostles quoted it when they wrote the Gospels and Epistles in Greek. What is most fascinating is that the order of the books in the Septuagint is the same order in our Bibles today, and not like the Hebrew scrolls. So this means that:

Jesus Primarily Used a Translation

Jesus and the Apostles: studied, memorized, used, quoted, and read most often from the Bible of their day, the Septuagint. Since Matthew wrote primarily to convince the Jews that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed their promised Messiah, it follows as a matter of course that his Gospel is saturated with the Hebrew Scriptures. Yet, when Jesus quotes the Old Testament in Matthew, He uses the Hebrew text only 10% of the time, but the Greek LXX translation—90% of the time!

Amazingly, Jesus and Paul used the LXX as their primary Bible. It was just like the Bible each of us holds in our hands, not the original Hebrew Old Testament, but a translation of the Hebrew into Greek. But it was based on exactly the same original and inspired words, and reads just like the Bible we hold in our hands today.

Theology Forum / Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
« on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 13:23:23 »
No. Paul knew what scriptures Timothy was raised on!
" In his letter to St. Timothy, St. Paul is not referring to the New Testament. This should be obvious since, after all, books such as Acts and Revelation had not yet been written. Even what had been written was still beginning the process of circulation in various churches. As Evangelicals, however, we generally want this passage to include the New Testament since it is one of the few verses that seem to directly support our position on the inspiration and full sufficiency of the Bible.

Regardless, St. Paul undoubtedly had the Old Testament in mind as he wrote this passage. It was the Old Testament that was read in the synagogue and was instrumental in the "training in righteousness" of Ss. Paul, Timothy and many other Christians from the Church of the first century. But, more importantly, Ss. Paul and Timothy used the Septuagint (LXX). "

From: http://www.kalvesmaki.com/otcanon.htm 
It's lengthy, but my point is about which text Paul and Timothy used.

End Times Forum / Re: Image of the beast
« on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 12:43:13 »
from idono's post-

Revelation 13:15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

 Satan gave power to the beasts in Rev.13. So, the image of Caesar on the coins to buy & sell.
And the thoughts are- they who worshiped Caesar. Most likely Vespasian and Titus (that little horn) who deluded the Jews with acts of miracles. (actually, sorcery).

Theology Forum / Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
« on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 12:25:06 »

Originally posted by The Boxer-
Job 19:25-26 according to the Septuagint:

For I know that he is eternal who is about to deliver me, 26 to raise up upon the earth my skin that endures these : for these things have been accomplished to me of the Lord;

A few months back I was engaged in a discussion with a poster on Job 19:25-26. The poster says that Job 19:25-26 is a proof text for the resurrection and for the second coming of Christ. He bases his theory on the English translation of the Masoretic Hebrew Text.

For I know that my redeemerliveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I seeGod:

The Septuagint is the Greek translation and revision of the Hebrew Masoretic Text. Please note that in the passage cited above the Septuagint contradicts the Masoretic Text. The Septuagint says NOTHING about the Lord standing on the earth in the last day. It is NOT about the last day at all. It says that the Eternal One was "about to" deliver Job then, and that Job's skin would be raised upon on the earth.

The Septuagint has a whole lot of authority. About 70% of all old testament quotations by Jesus and the apostles are from the Septuagint. And each time they quoted the Septuagint it contradicted the Masoretic Text. This means that Jesus and the apostles contradicted the Masoretic Text. So the Septuagint has the approval of Jesus and the apostles. We must not forget that the reason the Septuagint was produced was because it was widely believed that the Masoretic Text had undergone much corruption. So the seventy most notable Jewish scholars of that time were commissioned to produce the scriptures in Greek. And Paul told Timothy that the scriptures on which he was raised were the "holy scriptures." Timothy was raised on the Septuagint.

Furthermore, Job had no concept of the afterlife.

As the cloud disappears and vanishes away, So he who goes down to the grave does not come up.

I believe in the resurrection. But the book of Job offers no support for it and to insist that it does is unscholarly and even dishonest.


Also, Rev 14:11 is wording (symbolism) that is also in Isa.34:10, another day of the Lord's judgment. That one was on Edom.

Lastly, I believe you and "piney" have no clue about what the symbolism in the Revelation verses you quoted is about.

Theology Forum / Re: How Long is Forever and Forever in Hell
« on: Wed May 23, 2018 - 18:25:29 »
"The Lord preserves all who love him; but all the wicked will he destroy" (Psa. 145:20).

Here is an interesting article about hell:


End Times Forum / Re: Four Beasts?
« on: Tue May 15, 2018 - 09:10:56 »
They're called living creatures or living onesNOT beasts.

"the we shall reign on earth" is also the prayers of the saints (on earth).

All redeemed by Jesus' blood: in heaven, on earth, and under the earth beings.

All worship God and the Lamb.

End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Sat May 12, 2018 - 08:48:02 »

 After the Jesus (the slain Lamb) had the authority to open the seals, scripture tells us it must all happen soon.
Jesus "finished" it too.  ::clappingoverhead::

End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Thu May 10, 2018 - 18:35:11 »

Revelation 3:
20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. 21To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

End Times Forum / Re: The Judgment Seat of Christ
« on: Tue May 08, 2018 - 15:28:33 »
What latter times?  The end of the old covenant age. (so obvious!)
"All" in Revelation was to happen soon. 
John and the Angel

6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”( emph. mine)

Debates / Re: WHAT DOES ROM 5:14 MEAN ?
« on: Mon May 07, 2018 - 19:06:09 »
Yes, you're right about the O.T. faithful.
I was thinking of the word "blessed" instead of "saved" because it wasn't clear of what they were being "saved" from.

Theology Forum / Re: Enemies of the cross
« on: Sun May 06, 2018 - 18:04:20 »
It should be made clear that Jesus' words in his teachings are sometimes exaggerated to the hilt for emphasis.

I remember putting down the N.T. when He said something like 'if your right eye causes you to sin, then pluck it out'

At 20, even 30, I didn't understand. No one told me it was an exaggeration to make a point about sinning!

More people would read the Bible and be consoled if they knew this fact, and they wouldn't be turned off from the start.

Just my 2 pennies!

Debates / Re: WHAT DOES ROM 5:14 MEAN ?
« on: Sun May 06, 2018 - 17:49:03 »
 Death reigned from Adam to Moses. No one was "saved." ( Maybe at the resurrection of the just.)

The law came and helped atone for sins. (still the same gospel). The O.T. law of works.

Jesus came and brought the free gift of grace through salvation.


Theology Forum / Re: What did they preach?
« on: Tue May 01, 2018 - 11:25:34 »
They were sent out to preach THE GOSPEL that Jesus was teaching them.

The Jews knew what the kingdom of God (or heaven) was already.

10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matt.8:10)

Also, we must certainly preach about the Resurrection and eternal life! (John 3:16)

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